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#40237 - 07/14/10 12:23 PM Black People in America
Dakota Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 12/23/09
Posts: 60
Loc: Michigan
This has been kind of annoying to me, but why are African Americans still on the bottom of society in life. It’s like they like being at the bottom, and I hardly ever see a successfully black man. The statistics in general tell me the have a lower IQ, make less money, and less education than the other races.

Then I see the Asian populations, achieving more college education and usually they come from immigrants were the African population has been here for centuries now just like the white community. Why can they not propel themselves to a more equal range?

I came from a black community, then I moved to a white community. I am not black though. The main difference I could tell was that white people believe they can achieve. While the black people felt they were always being subordinated from day one, as if there‘s an invisible box

Do you think we as a society are prejudice still, or that black people in general just lack the skills to move as a group to a better social class than they are right now? And if there were no other race besides the black race, would it make a difference?

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#40259 - 07/14/10 07:41 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dakota]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1751
Loc: New York
To me, what you ask seems to be a reasonable question. Some might agree and some disagree.
The interesting thing is, that if someone was to ask this outside of the internet, they would be met with all kinds of “Politically Correct,” responses, and possibly even violence.

I’m always weary when a question is looked upon as taboo, or unacceptable to ask.
In some parts of the world it is a crime punishable by jail time to even question the number of Jews that were murdered in concentration camps. If you were to state that the number of ovens available at the time could not possibly accommodate ten million people, then you’d be committing a crime.

As to the original question, I think that there is a big difference between the mentality of the general American black population, and the world wide black population.

In American blacks make up about 40 percent of the prison population, while they make up only about 12 percent of the general population. The politically correct crowd will say that this is due to black people not having the opportunity for the same kind of legal representation as white people do. I do not know if this is true or not, but I question it.

Even with all the social programs out there to give American Blacks a “leg up” in the system, they still thrive on excuses as to why they are “held down,” by society.
One of the reasons that I’m glad to see President Obama in office is that he basically kicked the proverbial chair out from the excuses given by blacks that they cannot get ahead. Even though he’s only half black. I think that he’s black enough to make a point.

This doesn’t mean that the reasons given regarding the difficulty of the American black population from advancing to a general higher standard is not a valid one, but I do question it, because I don’t believe that the reasoning supports the evidence.

To question such things publicly will lead to a great amount of hardship for the person asking the questions.
A few years ago, the television personality Andy Rooney attempted to explain that the reason American Blacks are better at sports then white Americans is because during the times of slavery, “they were bred for strength. Again, I have no idea if that is true or not, but as soon as he uttered those words publicly there was such an outcry from the community that he was soon fired. He did eventually get his job back.

Don Imus, the New York city radio personality who has been a radio icon for over twenty years, and loved by many, could pretty much get away with anything he said on the air.
His on air persona could make fun of Jews, Christians, women, you name it. I bet no one thought that him calling a local women’s basket ball team “a bunch of nappy haired ho’s,” would pretty much spell the end of his career.
Even though everyone kissed his ass when things were going good, as soon as Al Sharpton and Jessey Jackass started a movement against him, his closest friends abandoned him like rats leaving a sinking ship, even though Imus gave Sharpton much more air time then he ever deserved through the years.


So just imagine what it would do to a the career of a researcher, or a politician if they would openly declaim that perhaps the reason that blacks are not advancing in society as well as orientals and other first generation immigrants might be possibly genetic and not social in nature.
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#40260 - 07/14/10 07:46 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dakota]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Dakota
This has been kind of annoying to me, but why are African Americans still on the bottom of society in life. It’s like they like being at the bottom, and I hardly ever see a successfully black man. The statistics in general tell me the have a lower IQ, make less money, and less education than the other races.

Why should this bother you? Where do you get your statistics from looking out the window? As there are more and more people, the successful to unsuccessful ratio will grow exponentially. To say there are no successful African Americans well you are simply just wrong.

“Behind the Boomtown African American entrepreneurs are on a tear. Their numbers grew by 45%, to 1.2 million, between 1997 and 2002, according to the U.S. Census Bureau's most recent data. That compares with a 10% increase in the total number of businesses.”
Full Article

“The U.S. Economic Census reported 7,837 African American-owned firms3/ in Minnesota in 2002, compared to just 4,024 in 1997. Clearly, small business growth has increased dramatically in a short period within the state's African American community.”
Full Article

“It's an American success story. Self-made black multimillionaires, many of whom grew up poor,
have made vast fortunes in the sports, entertainment and media industries.”

Full Article

 Originally Posted By: Dakota
Then I see the Asian populations, achieving more college education and usually they come from immigrants were the African population has been here for centuries now just like the white community. Why can they not propel themselves to a more equal range?

Have you looked at any pictures of China near the steel factory, the river covered with yellow gunk with people washing themselves a few feet away? Take a look

They have more to lose if they had to go back to that existence. Being a lazy ass in America one can still live relatively safe and comfortable.

 Originally Posted By: Dakota
I came from a black community, then I moved to a white community. I am not black though. The main difference I could tell was that white people believe they can achieve. While the black people felt they were always being subordinated from day one, as if there‘s an invisible box.

CT has quite a cultural diversity that I rarely judge anyone any longer by skintone. There are as many white, hispanic and Asian scumbags that waste good air.

 Originally Posted By: Dakota
Do you think we as a society are prejudice still, or that black people in general just lack the skills to move as a group to a better social class than they are right now? And if there were no other race besides the black race, would it make a difference?

I think you are prejudice still. Do you think they all came from Africa dear, all those black people? Have you ever seen a black person I tend to see shades of skintone myself.

Eh what difference does it make…

I'll go back to contemplating my navel lint quietly in the corner…

EDIT:
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
So just imagine what it would do to a the career of a researcher, or a politician if they would openly declaim that perhaps the reason that blacks are not advancing in society as well as orientals and other first generation immigrants might be possibly genetic and not social in nature.

The statistics just seem to say differently. This would spell the end of their credibility and just paint them as being racist.

~T~




Edited by ta2zz (07/14/10 07:55 PM)
Edit Reason: Marked
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#40268 - 07/14/10 10:56 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: ta2zz]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
It's funny that we, as humans, create new breeds of dog/cat/bird all the time through selective breeding, and make note of the different features of differing breeds. Yet if you apply that same logic to human variations you are automatically Adolph Hitler.


Of course there are observable and marked differences between different breeds of human! That is not to say any race is more or less than another, only that some may outperform others, in certain contexts, or even exhibit different sorts of aptitudes and abilities. How many asians do you see in the NBA anyway?

Of course, there are always exceptional individuals that do not reflect general statistics, so I find it more beneficial to judge people on a case by case basis.
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#40270 - 07/15/10 01:33 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dan_Dread]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Working on skin during the influx of people with darker skin wanting tattoos, it was interesting to say the least some of the shit I have heard.

First most will tell you they are not black, not a color. Should you dare call a Haitian an African American you will hear it. This is mirrored in the census form that went around this year. While we Caucasians are now white (yes we are officially a color) the second question was are you Colored, African American or Negro? Funny a lady has told me before that she wasn’t colored just brown. Also a color I know… I thought colored was a bad thing to say as well.

Fuck they do like to complain though.

And Dakota seriously?

 Originally Posted By: Dakota
And if there were no other race besides the black race, would it make a difference?

What kind of question is this?

Might I suggest a movie that might give you a different view?

IMDB: White Man’s Burden

~T~
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#40271 - 07/15/10 01:40 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dakota]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1146
Loc: Amarillo, TX
It is true that, demographically, blacks are still at lower levels of academic and career success, on average, than whites, and that Asian immigrants are at higher levels. But given my observations, neither of these is related to race alone.

How do I know? Because once cultural factors are controlled for, races perform approximately the same.

In "urban," "ghetto," or low-income neighborhoods in general, there develops what is called a culture of poverty. In low income families, the burdens of poverty lead to "the formation of an autonomous subculture as children were socialized into behaviors and attitudes that perpetuated their inability to escape the underclass." Simply put, many people cope with poverty by 1) blaming their predicament on circumstance and prejudice instead of their own unwillingness to grow, and 2) celebrating poverty and a lack of education as more "authentic." This is true of any ethnic group living in poverty. Redneck, white trailer park trash perpetuate this same cycle every bit as much as inner-city black kids. Ethicity matters not. The only reason a disproportionate number of blacks continue to remain in poverty is because there are a disproportionate number of blacks starting out in poverty in the first place.

Now, you may claim that some people work hard, get scholarships, get an education, clean up their act and get a better job despite growing up in poor cultures. But the ability to break free of one's upbringing and social condition is exceptionally rare. 80% of individuals in the United States will have the same income level, education level, and religion as their parents. Humans, as a general rule, mimic their parents and communities. There are notable exceptions, but they're notable for a reason; they're atypical. Most people aren't self-aware enough to make conscious decisions about what they, personally, will for themselves. People, as a rule, live like automatons, not even realizing what led them to what they are.

Consider this: blacks growing up in more "gentrified" neighborhoods, in households that value education and success, tend to do just as well as their white counterparts in said neighborhoods. Whites growing up in inner-city neighborhoods with parents that like to sit around and watch Judge Judy will end up every bit as poverty-stricken and illiterate as their black counterparts. "Baby IQ" tests given to infants of all races demonstrate that, in the beginning, there is no racial difference in intelligence. The disparity between races is the result of culture and conditioning (nurture), not genetics (nature).

Now, you may ask, what about the Asian immigrants? This is the result of a sociological phenomena known as brain drain. When a country really sucks to live in, anyone with high enough intelligence is going to do everything in their power to get the heck out of dodge. This applies to any shitty, underdeveloped region: Africa, East Asia, South Asia, the Middle East, even regions of Eastern Europe. Only those with money and education, however, will have the resources to be able to immigrate to a country with better opportunities than the one in which they are currently living. The further away the country, the truer this is.

So what the U.S. is getting, in terms of Asian immigrants, are not a representative cross-section of the population of China or India, but rather, the cream of the crop. If someone had the skills and resourcefulness to come here from China, they're above the average Chinese citizen. And if they're above average there, they're above average here, too. It's not that Asians as a whole are smart; rather, it's that the Asians that are able to immigrate to the U.S. are smart. Something else of note is that immigrants directly from Africa (instead of descendents of U.S.-born African Americans) tend to be over-performing, well-educated people, just like Asian immigrants.
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#40275 - 07/15/10 03:27 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dakota]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
Concerning this subject nuances should be made.
 Quote:
I came from a black community, then I moved to a white community. I am not black though. The main difference I could tell was that white people believe they can achieve. While the black people felt they were always being subordinated from day one, as if there‘s an invisible box

The invisible box you are speaking off is a result from various factors interlinking. Many years ago Africans were used as slaves and shipped to the Western world. They would end up, most of the time, doing shitty jobs and being put into ghetto's. The African black man was to be considered an animal. It was even learned in various school books (I still have some of those from grandparents) till 1940 the black people were less then us Westerns. Prejudices concerning this subject and from this time managed to survive in both the hearts of Westerns and black until this recent day. Why is the reason? Years of oppression gave a cultural blow to these people. Every new generation of blacks has learned from previous generations what happened and will immediately use this particular history as a defence-mechanism when being punished for a crime.
The difference you saw between both cultures is an immediate result of this.

To continue: I am a person who does not believe in multiculturalism. I would even claim that the Western Culture is the most superior one. My reason here would be that thanks to the Western world various other cultures had the opportunity to enrich themselves with technology, knowledge and economically.
Differences in culture would include positions towards religion, use of violence, structure of society and history.

I once made the claim back at MCOS the African culture is the lowest one, and I still stand by this statement. I heard enough stories of people exploring the Continent OUTSIDE the tourist-zones. Almost any story included chaotic arrivals, stolen goods, fraud, violence (with literal shooting towards people from their own culture) and hypocrisy. In defense someone tried to say it wasn't true but before I could answer I was banned by upsetting too much people and causing quite a disturbance. (They're a little political incorrect... sigh). The plain and simple answer would be that this person never left the tourist-zone and tried to make a walk in the "real Africa" behind the facade of Safaris, big central towns and other tourist activities.

I also made the statement that while they want Asia to be seen as the next economical heaven and major influence on world-power this would never be the case within a decade. One of the reasons would be as mentioned before by Nemesis. When it comes to culture I rank them also much lower. Their culture is based on violent behaviour, as a result from the different dynasties in their cultural history. Also here I based my statement on the knowledge of the many different kinds of defense-sports. While they may have suit their needs during the different dynasties in battle, I wander what use they have now apart from keeping the body fit and small-scale hand-to-hand robbery (and even then it is rarely used). The main question here is: "to defense against what?". You do a karate/kung-fu/Shao-lin/.. move I pull my gun and shoot the crap out you.
More "facts" on which I base myself would be the anime cartoons such as Dragonball, Bakugan, Gundam wing, pokemon, Digimon, Hellsing,..
Is it normal to wonder how the fuck a person would get into his mind to make cartoon series wherein little kids get super-powers and have to battle each other until defeat/death? I see a culture based on violence as a reason. Economical/technological reasons would include the copy-cat behaviour towards our culture, although it lessened and they have proven themselves to be productive. (Considering the newest technology on communication, photography and cybernetics is mostly located in Asia). On another note, they have copied in the past and possibly grew to this state after the know-how was given slowly away on which could be made positive advancement.

I still view the Western culture (ie the whites) as still the most superior one. Although I have to admit having also a few comments on our shortcomings and decadency. We managed to evolve and better the way on how we live. Continents such as Africa and Asia had the same time-span to achieve the same thing, yet both are treading far behind. Middle-east is exactly the same story. Try to blame it on the Western world, I see it as another reason to implant unwanted and unbased guilt.

Fire at will..


Edited by Dimitri (07/15/10 03:30 AM)
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#40294 - 07/15/10 01:40 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dimitri]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
 Quote:
Continents such as Africa and Asia had the same time-span to achieve the same thing, yet both are treading far behind.

The interesting question is why is this the case? Is there some sort of natural superiority to the Western way of doing things, as proponents of Social Darwinism would argue, or did we just get lucky?

In his 1997 book, Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond suggests that Western European culture's inexorable rise to the top boils down largely to geographical and political factors outside of our control, e.g. availability of domesticable plant & animal species, etc.

Stag

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#40295 - 07/15/10 01:50 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Stag]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
In his 1997 book, Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond suggests that Western European culture's inexorable rise to the top boils down largely to geographical and political factors outside of our control, e.g. availability of domesticable plant & animal species, etc.

Sounds like something I would pick up. Do you know perhaps a few others which tread the same subject?
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#40318 - 07/15/10 11:40 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dimitri]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1146
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I once made the claim back at MCOS the African culture is the lowest one, and I still stand by this statement...before I could answer I was banned by upsetting too much people and causing quite a disturbance. (They're a little political incorrect... sigh).

Fire at will..


Ceberia, then, I take it? I saw your post back in the MCoS forums. While I personally disagree with your position, I regret that you were banned. I feel much more comfortable having a free exchange, no matter how touchy of a subject the matter at hand is. I would have much preferred to speak openly about the issue instead of merely having you silenced for disagreeing. I respect the MCoS's authority to allow or kick out whomever they see fit, but had I been in charge I would have chosen to debate you instead of silence you. I feel it's much more honest that way. So that being said, I'm pleasantly surprised to find you here.

If I may, then, respond here and now as I would have there and then...

First of all, it's a bit unclear to me exactly what your position is, so allow me to ask for clarification. Are you arguing for cultural superiority (that is, Western value systems, practices, beliefs etc are better than those of other cultures) or are you arguing that the Caucasoid race itself is superior, by merit of genes or some other physical factor? Until I'm clear on at least that point, I'm not sure how much I could argue without making assumptions about your position or arguments that may be misdirected.


Edited by XiaoGui17 (07/15/10 11:41 PM)
Edit Reason: redundant use of word
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#40330 - 07/16/10 02:57 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: XiaoGui17]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
First of all, it's a bit unclear to me exactly what your position is, so allow me to ask for clarification. Are you arguing for cultural superiority (that is, Western value systems, practices, beliefs etc are better than those of other cultures) or are you arguing that the Caucasoid race itself is superior, by merit of genes or some other physical factor? Until I'm clear on at least that point, I'm not sure how much I could argue without making assumptions about your position or arguments that may be misdirected.

I was aware that some people back at MCoS would have loved to have the continued debate, you being one of them. No hard feelings over the banning, guess my attitude/positions simply didn't match up with their standards. Although I miss a bit of conversation with Lyria.. she was quite an attractive lady to say the least :P

Anyway, to your response:
As written in the comment I am arguing indeed about cultural superiority. While it may sound false to switch "culture" for "race", it just may be done. Only problem facing here would be the dead-beaten excuse of small exceptions that people want to represent as "how their culture really is".

Superiority about race on the other hand, hands me the tool of evolution in which once again cultural/racial differences can be compared. I never said I was a racist and always claimed to be against multi-culturalism. It is my firm believe that regarding the different races, every race has evolved towards standards which are best suited for the particular environment they are born and live in. To be against multi-culturalism implies you can stand people from another culture, as long as the culture stays in their place of birth without forcing it down the throat of others.

An example would be the raise of people who believe in Islam here in Belgium due too an influx of illegal people taking on the Belgian identity without really naturalising. As stupid as Christianity might be, it still is the official religion here. And I take great harm of seeing mosques arise. Of seeing entire streets slowly changing in degraded ghetto's. Another problem would include that those mosques are being build with my tax money as subsidy, that a great deal of the "naturalised" Belgians have certain privileges and certain taxes they do not have to pay. I would love to see the Canadian system here be implemented wherein you can only enter the country if you have a steady job for at least x-years over there.

Mentioned in a previous post I also stated about feelings of guilt and prejudices being handed down from generation to generation even after it became illegal to teach/mention black people to be a lower kind of human. Nothing wrong with it, and it might have been a great moment slavery was being banned. But to see, many decades after the events, ghetto's of blacks who still live at the edges of poverty and violence I cannot help but wonder and think they truly are a lower kind of human. When I studied at the VUB I saw always black people insulting others over trivial things, I saw them getting in a fight about something stupid like a mere "pardon me, can I pass to take the stairs/elevator?" when they were blocking the way. I take this general behaviour has to do with historical background of their culture, yet it would be far more better when they let it. "Follow the rules of one when treading in his/her lair".

There are exceptions like Obama and others who managed to climb up the social ladder and achieve certain status or managed to live a normal life like anyone here while playing by the rules.
Sadly enough, the ones living at the edge greatly outnumber the few succesful ones. My position during the discussion is one attained by experience and not from reading far too much racist-books or hanging out with extreme-right thinkers/friends.

I'm also a great fan in taxonomy of further classification to the level of sub-specie. Much to my disliking, most refuse to do so since there is a moral argument blocking the way. To classify towards the level of sub-specie implies ranking a specie on race (for humans) or on the different colors and patterns the animal has (when talking about birds and other hairy animals).

I hope this clears a few things up..


Edited by Dimitri (07/16/10 03:23 AM)
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#40344 - 07/16/10 02:32 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dimitri]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
One thing I must vehemently disagree with, is this sort of xenophobia wherein people make the mistake of thinking that there exists some sort of pure, unchanging "racial culture" inherent to their society that must be preserved at all costs.

Being Anti-Multiculturalism is like being Anti-Gravity. Multiculturalism is the natural way of the world, for both good and ill. I'm not saying it's beneficial or detrimental; just that there's no stopping it. A millennium ago the world map looked completely different, many of our ancestors lived in some other region, and nobody cared about national unity because they were too busy fighting with different villages and city-states.

Ethnic identity is an illusion. It never lasts. When you finally realize you have it in your hands, it's already under siege by some new "foreign" invader ready to taint your culture and tear your long-cherished customs and prejudices a new one. Wash, rinse, repeat.

All I can say is, get over it. In seven hundred years nobody is going to care about the supposed negative impact of Islamic or African-American cultural influence. By then we'll all be mulatto, chinese-speaking Muslims, and our main concern will be whether or not we can tolerate those poor, dirty Mexamericans from sneaking past our borders, taking our jobs, and spreading that foul, oppressive religion of Wiccan Scientology that threatens to overtake the world.
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#40345 - 07/16/10 02:35 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dimitri]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
Such an interesting conundrum. I only know two people who've been raped. They were both raped by black men in what (the gals) thought were 'safe neighborhoods'. I think it's a genetic given that black folks (American blacks) have sub-standard IQ's as a quantifiable measured group. Every so-called race has its own stereotype and the group of traits that define them, whether you like it or not. I don't consider myself a bigot, but I am a racist. The violent crimes/rapes/punishable offenses that are committed by Americans are overwhelmingly committed by blacks/Mexicans. Look it up. So what do we do about this? What bridges can we build that will allow travel between all these cultural worlds (not wars). I don't know, it doesn't seem to have worked out that fishily well yet.
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#40364 - 07/16/10 09:17 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: GillesdeRais]
Room 101 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Scotland
Being from a country that has a significantly reduced number of Negros in population, I’m afraid that my opinion may be not entirely accurate in its generalisation.

That aside, I would have to say that, those amongst us, are generally well educated and civil. There is NO scientific evidence as to why people of darker skin are susceptible of lower cognitive ability, nor rational reasoning than those that are of Caucasian/albino pigmentation.

All arguments to the contrary are non scenes. The only factor that matters in human sociologic terms as to crime rate and crimes committed are ENVIROMENTAL. This has no reflection on skin pigmentation....even if all the blacks cause "all" the crimes. lol


Edited by Room 101 (07/16/10 09:18 PM)
Edit Reason: Fat hands
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#40368 - 07/16/10 09:39 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Room 101]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Toeing the line of PC on the issue of race is so deeply ingrained upon our culture, what do you suppose might happen if it were conclusively shown that the differences of race go beyond pigmentation? Do you suppose that knowledge would be freely distributed? I somehow doubt you would even hear about it.

Given the physical differences between races, it seems a little weird to me to imagine the forces of evolution wanted to keep all else equal.
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