Page all of 3 123>
Topic Options
#40237 - 07/14/10 12:23 PM Black People in America
Dakota Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 12/23/09
Posts: 60
Loc: Michigan
This has been kind of annoying to me, but why are African Americans still on the bottom of society in life. It’s like they like being at the bottom, and I hardly ever see a successfully black man. The statistics in general tell me the have a lower IQ, make less money, and less education than the other races.

Then I see the Asian populations, achieving more college education and usually they come from immigrants were the African population has been here for centuries now just like the white community. Why can they not propel themselves to a more equal range?

I came from a black community, then I moved to a white community. I am not black though. The main difference I could tell was that white people believe they can achieve. While the black people felt they were always being subordinated from day one, as if there‘s an invisible box

Do you think we as a society are prejudice still, or that black people in general just lack the skills to move as a group to a better social class than they are right now? And if there were no other race besides the black race, would it make a difference?

Top
#40259 - 07/14/10 07:41 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dakota]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1753
Loc: New York
To me, what you ask seems to be a reasonable question. Some might agree and some disagree.
The interesting thing is, that if someone was to ask this outside of the internet, they would be met with all kinds of “Politically Correct,” responses, and possibly even violence.

I’m always weary when a question is looked upon as taboo, or unacceptable to ask.
In some parts of the world it is a crime punishable by jail time to even question the number of Jews that were murdered in concentration camps. If you were to state that the number of ovens available at the time could not possibly accommodate ten million people, then you’d be committing a crime.

As to the original question, I think that there is a big difference between the mentality of the general American black population, and the world wide black population.

In American blacks make up about 40 percent of the prison population, while they make up only about 12 percent of the general population. The politically correct crowd will say that this is due to black people not having the opportunity for the same kind of legal representation as white people do. I do not know if this is true or not, but I question it.

Even with all the social programs out there to give American Blacks a “leg up” in the system, they still thrive on excuses as to why they are “held down,” by society.
One of the reasons that I’m glad to see President Obama in office is that he basically kicked the proverbial chair out from the excuses given by blacks that they cannot get ahead. Even though he’s only half black. I think that he’s black enough to make a point.

This doesn’t mean that the reasons given regarding the difficulty of the American black population from advancing to a general higher standard is not a valid one, but I do question it, because I don’t believe that the reasoning supports the evidence.

To question such things publicly will lead to a great amount of hardship for the person asking the questions.
A few years ago, the television personality Andy Rooney attempted to explain that the reason American Blacks are better at sports then white Americans is because during the times of slavery, “they were bred for strength. Again, I have no idea if that is true or not, but as soon as he uttered those words publicly there was such an outcry from the community that he was soon fired. He did eventually get his job back.

Don Imus, the New York city radio personality who has been a radio icon for over twenty years, and loved by many, could pretty much get away with anything he said on the air.
His on air persona could make fun of Jews, Christians, women, you name it. I bet no one thought that him calling a local women’s basket ball team “a bunch of nappy haired ho’s,” would pretty much spell the end of his career.
Even though everyone kissed his ass when things were going good, as soon as Al Sharpton and Jessey Jackass started a movement against him, his closest friends abandoned him like rats leaving a sinking ship, even though Imus gave Sharpton much more air time then he ever deserved through the years.


So just imagine what it would do to a the career of a researcher, or a politician if they would openly declaim that perhaps the reason that blacks are not advancing in society as well as orientals and other first generation immigrants might be possibly genetic and not social in nature.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

Top
#40260 - 07/14/10 07:46 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dakota]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Dakota
This has been kind of annoying to me, but why are African Americans still on the bottom of society in life. It’s like they like being at the bottom, and I hardly ever see a successfully black man. The statistics in general tell me the have a lower IQ, make less money, and less education than the other races.

Why should this bother you? Where do you get your statistics from looking out the window? As there are more and more people, the successful to unsuccessful ratio will grow exponentially. To say there are no successful African Americans well you are simply just wrong.

“Behind the Boomtown African American entrepreneurs are on a tear. Their numbers grew by 45%, to 1.2 million, between 1997 and 2002, according to the U.S. Census Bureau's most recent data. That compares with a 10% increase in the total number of businesses.”
Full Article

“The U.S. Economic Census reported 7,837 African American-owned firms3/ in Minnesota in 2002, compared to just 4,024 in 1997. Clearly, small business growth has increased dramatically in a short period within the state's African American community.”
Full Article

“It's an American success story. Self-made black multimillionaires, many of whom grew up poor,
have made vast fortunes in the sports, entertainment and media industries.”

Full Article

 Originally Posted By: Dakota
Then I see the Asian populations, achieving more college education and usually they come from immigrants were the African population has been here for centuries now just like the white community. Why can they not propel themselves to a more equal range?

Have you looked at any pictures of China near the steel factory, the river covered with yellow gunk with people washing themselves a few feet away? Take a look

They have more to lose if they had to go back to that existence. Being a lazy ass in America one can still live relatively safe and comfortable.

 Originally Posted By: Dakota
I came from a black community, then I moved to a white community. I am not black though. The main difference I could tell was that white people believe they can achieve. While the black people felt they were always being subordinated from day one, as if there‘s an invisible box.

CT has quite a cultural diversity that I rarely judge anyone any longer by skintone. There are as many white, hispanic and Asian scumbags that waste good air.

 Originally Posted By: Dakota
Do you think we as a society are prejudice still, or that black people in general just lack the skills to move as a group to a better social class than they are right now? And if there were no other race besides the black race, would it make a difference?

I think you are prejudice still. Do you think they all came from Africa dear, all those black people? Have you ever seen a black person I tend to see shades of skintone myself.

Eh what difference does it make…

I'll go back to contemplating my navel lint quietly in the corner…

EDIT:
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
So just imagine what it would do to a the career of a researcher, or a politician if they would openly declaim that perhaps the reason that blacks are not advancing in society as well as orientals and other first generation immigrants might be possibly genetic and not social in nature.

The statistics just seem to say differently. This would spell the end of their credibility and just paint them as being racist.

~T~




Edited by ta2zz (07/14/10 07:55 PM)
Edit Reason: Marked
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

Top
#40268 - 07/14/10 10:56 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: ta2zz]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
It's funny that we, as humans, create new breeds of dog/cat/bird all the time through selective breeding, and make note of the different features of differing breeds. Yet if you apply that same logic to human variations you are automatically Adolph Hitler.


Of course there are observable and marked differences between different breeds of human! That is not to say any race is more or less than another, only that some may outperform others, in certain contexts, or even exhibit different sorts of aptitudes and abilities. How many asians do you see in the NBA anyway?

Of course, there are always exceptional individuals that do not reflect general statistics, so I find it more beneficial to judge people on a case by case basis.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#40270 - 07/15/10 01:33 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dan_Dread]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Working on skin during the influx of people with darker skin wanting tattoos, it was interesting to say the least some of the shit I have heard.

First most will tell you they are not black, not a color. Should you dare call a Haitian an African American you will hear it. This is mirrored in the census form that went around this year. While we Caucasians are now white (yes we are officially a color) the second question was are you Colored, African American or Negro? Funny a lady has told me before that she wasn’t colored just brown. Also a color I know… I thought colored was a bad thing to say as well.

Fuck they do like to complain though.

And Dakota seriously?

 Originally Posted By: Dakota
And if there were no other race besides the black race, would it make a difference?

What kind of question is this?

Might I suggest a movie that might give you a different view?

IMDB: White Man’s Burden

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

Top
#40271 - 07/15/10 01:40 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dakota]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1147
Loc: Amarillo, TX
It is true that, demographically, blacks are still at lower levels of academic and career success, on average, than whites, and that Asian immigrants are at higher levels. But given my observations, neither of these is related to race alone.

How do I know? Because once cultural factors are controlled for, races perform approximately the same.

In "urban," "ghetto," or low-income neighborhoods in general, there develops what is called a culture of poverty. In low income families, the burdens of poverty lead to "the formation of an autonomous subculture as children were socialized into behaviors and attitudes that perpetuated their inability to escape the underclass." Simply put, many people cope with poverty by 1) blaming their predicament on circumstance and prejudice instead of their own unwillingness to grow, and 2) celebrating poverty and a lack of education as more "authentic." This is true of any ethnic group living in poverty. Redneck, white trailer park trash perpetuate this same cycle every bit as much as inner-city black kids. Ethicity matters not. The only reason a disproportionate number of blacks continue to remain in poverty is because there are a disproportionate number of blacks starting out in poverty in the first place.

Now, you may claim that some people work hard, get scholarships, get an education, clean up their act and get a better job despite growing up in poor cultures. But the ability to break free of one's upbringing and social condition is exceptionally rare. 80% of individuals in the United States will have the same income level, education level, and religion as their parents. Humans, as a general rule, mimic their parents and communities. There are notable exceptions, but they're notable for a reason; they're atypical. Most people aren't self-aware enough to make conscious decisions about what they, personally, will for themselves. People, as a rule, live like automatons, not even realizing what led them to what they are.

Consider this: blacks growing up in more "gentrified" neighborhoods, in households that value education and success, tend to do just as well as their white counterparts in said neighborhoods. Whites growing up in inner-city neighborhoods with parents that like to sit around and watch Judge Judy will end up every bit as poverty-stricken and illiterate as their black counterparts. "Baby IQ" tests given to infants of all races demonstrate that, in the beginning, there is no racial difference in intelligence. The disparity between races is the result of culture and conditioning (nurture), not genetics (nature).

Now, you may ask, what about the Asian immigrants? This is the result of a sociological phenomena known as brain drain. When a country really sucks to live in, anyone with high enough intelligence is going to do everything in their power to get the heck out of dodge. This applies to any shitty, underdeveloped region: Africa, East Asia, South Asia, the Middle East, even regions of Eastern Europe. Only those with money and education, however, will have the resources to be able to immigrate to a country with better opportunities than the one in which they are currently living. The further away the country, the truer this is.

So what the U.S. is getting, in terms of Asian immigrants, are not a representative cross-section of the population of China or India, but rather, the cream of the crop. If someone had the skills and resourcefulness to come here from China, they're above the average Chinese citizen. And if they're above average there, they're above average here, too. It's not that Asians as a whole are smart; rather, it's that the Asians that are able to immigrate to the U.S. are smart. Something else of note is that immigrants directly from Africa (instead of descendents of U.S.-born African Americans) tend to be over-performing, well-educated people, just like Asian immigrants.
_________________________
Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

Top
#40275 - 07/15/10 03:27 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dakota]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
Concerning this subject nuances should be made.
 Quote:
I came from a black community, then I moved to a white community. I am not black though. The main difference I could tell was that white people believe they can achieve. While the black people felt they were always being subordinated from day one, as if there‘s an invisible box

The invisible box you are speaking off is a result from various factors interlinking. Many years ago Africans were used as slaves and shipped to the Western world. They would end up, most of the time, doing shitty jobs and being put into ghetto's. The African black man was to be considered an animal. It was even learned in various school books (I still have some of those from grandparents) till 1940 the black people were less then us Westerns. Prejudices concerning this subject and from this time managed to survive in both the hearts of Westerns and black until this recent day. Why is the reason? Years of oppression gave a cultural blow to these people. Every new generation of blacks has learned from previous generations what happened and will immediately use this particular history as a defence-mechanism when being punished for a crime.
The difference you saw between both cultures is an immediate result of this.

To continue: I am a person who does not believe in multiculturalism. I would even claim that the Western Culture is the most superior one. My reason here would be that thanks to the Western world various other cultures had the opportunity to enrich themselves with technology, knowledge and economically.
Differences in culture would include positions towards religion, use of violence, structure of society and history.

I once made the claim back at MCOS the African culture is the lowest one, and I still stand by this statement. I heard enough stories of people exploring the Continent OUTSIDE the tourist-zones. Almost any story included chaotic arrivals, stolen goods, fraud, violence (with literal shooting towards people from their own culture) and hypocrisy. In defense someone tried to say it wasn't true but before I could answer I was banned by upsetting too much people and causing quite a disturbance. (They're a little political incorrect... sigh). The plain and simple answer would be that this person never left the tourist-zone and tried to make a walk in the "real Africa" behind the facade of Safaris, big central towns and other tourist activities.

I also made the statement that while they want Asia to be seen as the next economical heaven and major influence on world-power this would never be the case within a decade. One of the reasons would be as mentioned before by Nemesis. When it comes to culture I rank them also much lower. Their culture is based on violent behaviour, as a result from the different dynasties in their cultural history. Also here I based my statement on the knowledge of the many different kinds of defense-sports. While they may have suit their needs during the different dynasties in battle, I wander what use they have now apart from keeping the body fit and small-scale hand-to-hand robbery (and even then it is rarely used). The main question here is: "to defense against what?". You do a karate/kung-fu/Shao-lin/.. move I pull my gun and shoot the crap out you.
More "facts" on which I base myself would be the anime cartoons such as Dragonball, Bakugan, Gundam wing, pokemon, Digimon, Hellsing,..
Is it normal to wonder how the fuck a person would get into his mind to make cartoon series wherein little kids get super-powers and have to battle each other until defeat/death? I see a culture based on violence as a reason. Economical/technological reasons would include the copy-cat behaviour towards our culture, although it lessened and they have proven themselves to be productive. (Considering the newest technology on communication, photography and cybernetics is mostly located in Asia). On another note, they have copied in the past and possibly grew to this state after the know-how was given slowly away on which could be made positive advancement.

I still view the Western culture (ie the whites) as still the most superior one. Although I have to admit having also a few comments on our shortcomings and decadency. We managed to evolve and better the way on how we live. Continents such as Africa and Asia had the same time-span to achieve the same thing, yet both are treading far behind. Middle-east is exactly the same story. Try to blame it on the Western world, I see it as another reason to implant unwanted and unbased guilt.

Fire at will..


Edited by Dimitri (07/15/10 03:30 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#40294 - 07/15/10 01:40 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dimitri]
Stag Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
 Quote:
Continents such as Africa and Asia had the same time-span to achieve the same thing, yet both are treading far behind.

The interesting question is why is this the case? Is there some sort of natural superiority to the Western way of doing things, as proponents of Social Darwinism would argue, or did we just get lucky?

In his 1997 book, Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond suggests that Western European culture's inexorable rise to the top boils down largely to geographical and political factors outside of our control, e.g. availability of domesticable plant & animal species, etc.

Stag

Top
#40295 - 07/15/10 01:50 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Stag]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
In his 1997 book, Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond suggests that Western European culture's inexorable rise to the top boils down largely to geographical and political factors outside of our control, e.g. availability of domesticable plant & animal species, etc.

Sounds like something I would pick up. Do you know perhaps a few others which tread the same subject?
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#40318 - 07/15/10 11:40 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dimitri]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1147
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I once made the claim back at MCOS the African culture is the lowest one, and I still stand by this statement...before I could answer I was banned by upsetting too much people and causing quite a disturbance. (They're a little political incorrect... sigh).

Fire at will..


Ceberia, then, I take it? I saw your post back in the MCoS forums. While I personally disagree with your position, I regret that you were banned. I feel much more comfortable having a free exchange, no matter how touchy of a subject the matter at hand is. I would have much preferred to speak openly about the issue instead of merely having you silenced for disagreeing. I respect the MCoS's authority to allow or kick out whomever they see fit, but had I been in charge I would have chosen to debate you instead of silence you. I feel it's much more honest that way. So that being said, I'm pleasantly surprised to find you here.

If I may, then, respond here and now as I would have there and then...

First of all, it's a bit unclear to me exactly what your position is, so allow me to ask for clarification. Are you arguing for cultural superiority (that is, Western value systems, practices, beliefs etc are better than those of other cultures) or are you arguing that the Caucasoid race itself is superior, by merit of genes or some other physical factor? Until I'm clear on at least that point, I'm not sure how much I could argue without making assumptions about your position or arguments that may be misdirected.


Edited by XiaoGui17 (07/15/10 11:41 PM)
Edit Reason: redundant use of word
_________________________
Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

Top
#40330 - 07/16/10 02:57 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: XiaoGui17]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
First of all, it's a bit unclear to me exactly what your position is, so allow me to ask for clarification. Are you arguing for cultural superiority (that is, Western value systems, practices, beliefs etc are better than those of other cultures) or are you arguing that the Caucasoid race itself is superior, by merit of genes or some other physical factor? Until I'm clear on at least that point, I'm not sure how much I could argue without making assumptions about your position or arguments that may be misdirected.

I was aware that some people back at MCoS would have loved to have the continued debate, you being one of them. No hard feelings over the banning, guess my attitude/positions simply didn't match up with their standards. Although I miss a bit of conversation with Lyria.. she was quite an attractive lady to say the least :P

Anyway, to your response:
As written in the comment I am arguing indeed about cultural superiority. While it may sound false to switch "culture" for "race", it just may be done. Only problem facing here would be the dead-beaten excuse of small exceptions that people want to represent as "how their culture really is".

Superiority about race on the other hand, hands me the tool of evolution in which once again cultural/racial differences can be compared. I never said I was a racist and always claimed to be against multi-culturalism. It is my firm believe that regarding the different races, every race has evolved towards standards which are best suited for the particular environment they are born and live in. To be against multi-culturalism implies you can stand people from another culture, as long as the culture stays in their place of birth without forcing it down the throat of others.

An example would be the raise of people who believe in Islam here in Belgium due too an influx of illegal people taking on the Belgian identity without really naturalising. As stupid as Christianity might be, it still is the official religion here. And I take great harm of seeing mosques arise. Of seeing entire streets slowly changing in degraded ghetto's. Another problem would include that those mosques are being build with my tax money as subsidy, that a great deal of the "naturalised" Belgians have certain privileges and certain taxes they do not have to pay. I would love to see the Canadian system here be implemented wherein you can only enter the country if you have a steady job for at least x-years over there.

Mentioned in a previous post I also stated about feelings of guilt and prejudices being handed down from generation to generation even after it became illegal to teach/mention black people to be a lower kind of human. Nothing wrong with it, and it might have been a great moment slavery was being banned. But to see, many decades after the events, ghetto's of blacks who still live at the edges of poverty and violence I cannot help but wonder and think they truly are a lower kind of human. When I studied at the VUB I saw always black people insulting others over trivial things, I saw them getting in a fight about something stupid like a mere "pardon me, can I pass to take the stairs/elevator?" when they were blocking the way. I take this general behaviour has to do with historical background of their culture, yet it would be far more better when they let it. "Follow the rules of one when treading in his/her lair".

There are exceptions like Obama and others who managed to climb up the social ladder and achieve certain status or managed to live a normal life like anyone here while playing by the rules.
Sadly enough, the ones living at the edge greatly outnumber the few succesful ones. My position during the discussion is one attained by experience and not from reading far too much racist-books or hanging out with extreme-right thinkers/friends.

I'm also a great fan in taxonomy of further classification to the level of sub-specie. Much to my disliking, most refuse to do so since there is a moral argument blocking the way. To classify towards the level of sub-specie implies ranking a specie on race (for humans) or on the different colors and patterns the animal has (when talking about birds and other hairy animals).

I hope this clears a few things up..


Edited by Dimitri (07/16/10 03:23 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#40344 - 07/16/10 02:32 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dimitri]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
One thing I must vehemently disagree with, is this sort of xenophobia wherein people make the mistake of thinking that there exists some sort of pure, unchanging "racial culture" inherent to their society that must be preserved at all costs.

Being Anti-Multiculturalism is like being Anti-Gravity. Multiculturalism is the natural way of the world, for both good and ill. I'm not saying it's beneficial or detrimental; just that there's no stopping it. A millennium ago the world map looked completely different, many of our ancestors lived in some other region, and nobody cared about national unity because they were too busy fighting with different villages and city-states.

Ethnic identity is an illusion. It never lasts. When you finally realize you have it in your hands, it's already under siege by some new "foreign" invader ready to taint your culture and tear your long-cherished customs and prejudices a new one. Wash, rinse, repeat.

All I can say is, get over it. In seven hundred years nobody is going to care about the supposed negative impact of Islamic or African-American cultural influence. By then we'll all be mulatto, chinese-speaking Muslims, and our main concern will be whether or not we can tolerate those poor, dirty Mexamericans from sneaking past our borders, taking our jobs, and spreading that foul, oppressive religion of Wiccan Scientology that threatens to overtake the world.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#40345 - 07/16/10 02:35 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dimitri]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
Such an interesting conundrum. I only know two people who've been raped. They were both raped by black men in what (the gals) thought were 'safe neighborhoods'. I think it's a genetic given that black folks (American blacks) have sub-standard IQ's as a quantifiable measured group. Every so-called race has its own stereotype and the group of traits that define them, whether you like it or not. I don't consider myself a bigot, but I am a racist. The violent crimes/rapes/punishable offenses that are committed by Americans are overwhelmingly committed by blacks/Mexicans. Look it up. So what do we do about this? What bridges can we build that will allow travel between all these cultural worlds (not wars). I don't know, it doesn't seem to have worked out that fishily well yet.
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

Top
#40364 - 07/16/10 09:17 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: GillesdeRais]
Room 101 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Scotland
Being from a country that has a significantly reduced number of Negros in population, I’m afraid that my opinion may be not entirely accurate in its generalisation.

That aside, I would have to say that, those amongst us, are generally well educated and civil. There is NO scientific evidence as to why people of darker skin are susceptible of lower cognitive ability, nor rational reasoning than those that are of Caucasian/albino pigmentation.

All arguments to the contrary are non scenes. The only factor that matters in human sociologic terms as to crime rate and crimes committed are ENVIROMENTAL. This has no reflection on skin pigmentation....even if all the blacks cause "all" the crimes. lol


Edited by Room 101 (07/16/10 09:18 PM)
Edit Reason: Fat hands
_________________________
"Nothing is your own except the few cubic centimeters inside your skull." - George Orwell (1984)

Top
#40368 - 07/16/10 09:39 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Room 101]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Toeing the line of PC on the issue of race is so deeply ingrained upon our culture, what do you suppose might happen if it were conclusively shown that the differences of race go beyond pigmentation? Do you suppose that knowledge would be freely distributed? I somehow doubt you would even hear about it.

Given the physical differences between races, it seems a little weird to me to imagine the forces of evolution wanted to keep all else equal.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#40370 - 07/16/10 09:59 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Room 101]
TV is God Moderator Offline
Moderator
member


Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
I've read a couple books on neurology. Though nothing I've read was addressing this issue directly it seems to be the most popular opinion that DNA has little to no affect on how the brain is formed. Likely it is a product completely of environment. I've seen plenty of whites living in the black ghettos and acting no different from the blacks there. I've seen kids of all races adopted by the whitest of white sheltered idiotic upper middle class Americans that turn out just the same as those raising them.

The ghetto environment rigs the odds for producing drug addicts, rapists, and the like. However I feel this is no excuse. No matter what the circumstances someone lives in, short of a direct threat on their lives or the lives of loved ones, you are held accountable for your own actions.

Where I grew up was a trailer park full of white trash meth addicts. Why don't you hear the big issue over these people? Because they're isolated. They're not in large groups and they're not shooting each other in city streets. But shoved in the same circumstances as those in the ghetto they would act the same way.

A big part of the problem is cultural pride. The idea that you inherent some intangible property from the history of your ancestors. Pride and prejudice are different inflections of the same concept. To be proud of anything is by definition to be prejudiced to others. To me pride is something you can have for something you accomplished. Something YOU did. You cannot reserve the right to be proud of being your race because it's not something you accomplished or even chose for yourself.

I'm all for preserving history but I'm opposed to anyone thinking they're special from something left entirely to chance. This is why I think most that think they're fighting for racial equality by glamorizing race and culture are a part of the problem. Only when we destroy the idea of racial or cultural pride can we have equality. I don't see this in humans any time soon.

As a side note I'm guessing by the lack of anger in this thread there's no brothers on the forum?


Edited by TV is God (07/16/10 10:02 PM)

Top
#40392 - 07/17/10 12:32 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: The Zebu]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
One thing I must vehemently disagree with, is this sort of xenophobia wherein people make the mistake of thinking that there exists some sort of pure, unchanging "racial culture" inherent to their society that must be preserved at all costs.

To say there is a central pure culture per race is indeed a fallacy. It is a claim I shall not make, what I will state is the difference of level in thinking and behavior per culture. Openly admitted I see persons from the middle-east as humans whose thinking is at the same level as ours from the middle-ages, those of Africans as far as the little more advanced prehistoric man,..
Once again, only my view and what I can deduce from experience and historical comperence.

 Quote:
Being Anti-Multiculturalism is like being Anti-Gravity. Multiculturalism is the natural way of the world, for both good and ill. I'm not saying it's beneficial or detrimental; just that there's no stopping it. A millennium ago the world map looked completely different, many of our ancestors lived in some other region, and nobody cared about national unity because they were too busy fighting with different villages and city-states.

I wouldn't exactly make the comperence with "like being anti-gravity". In modern times humans have the ability to travel and explore new cultures. It's not bad to explore and learn, but I don't take it to mimic the culture in the foreigners land of origin and start making attempts of implementing traditions here. To have respect for the culture: yes, to explore it: yes, to spread the foreign culture in one owns land: NO!
The reason here would be that any person is considered an individual. Every individual has his own thoughts/ideas and liking. If a person wants to belong to the foreign culture he found and learned about; may he/she get to the land of origin and live it there. Bringing it towards his own country and trying to convince people from his country is (IMO) nothing more then social vampirism as equally bad as the priest preaching religion.

Taking on the other hand the knowledge of the foreign culture to enrich the lack of knowledge your culture has is good. Taking over the entire culture without modifications and/or thinking is bad. Sadly enough the "bad-part" is often chosen, and the people who do so I see as traitors and deserve to be viewed as brainless scum whatever reason/defense they might offer.

 Quote:
All I can say is, get over it. In seven hundred years nobody is going to care about the supposed negative impact of Islamic or African-American cultural influence. By then we'll all be mulatto, Chinese-speaking Muslims, and our main concern will be whether or not we can tolerate those poor, dirty Mexamericans from sneaking past our borders, taking our jobs, and spreading that foul, oppressive religion of Wiccan Scientology that threatens to overtake the world.

While meant as a joke, people like me serve the purpose of evading a brainless mixed culture. While the mixing of cultures can become a fact, I at least will have made an attempt of not letting it happen and thus contributing towards an intelligent mixed culture. The necessary evil, so to speak.

On the matter of cultural pride:
Within my view, a person must have a certain degree of cultural pride. A reason herefor would be psycholochical. If a person (take a white person being raised in a black culture or the other way round) is raised within a culture where racial differences are apparant, this one racial difference will cause problems on longer terms. If the person is a teenager he/she will start asking questions to himself. Questions which can result in an intern struggle and degradation of the self. This racial argument will also be used by the other culture who is the most dominant. No matter how long the person with a "foreign" culture resides within the most dominant culture, a certain border will remain and cause a social burden.

Therfor I see taking pride in ones own culture as a neccesity to maintain a healthy social and psychological view.


Edited by Dimitri (07/17/10 12:43 PM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#40401 - 07/17/10 05:44 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dimitri]
TV is God Moderator Offline
Moderator
member


Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
[quote=Dimitri]
 Quote:


On the matter of cultural pride:
Within my view, a person must have a certain degree of cultural pride. A reason herefor would be psycholochical. If a person (take a white person being raised in a black culture or the other way round) is raised within a culture where racial differences are apparant, this one racial difference will cause problems on longer terms. If the person is a teenager he/she will start asking questions to himself. Questions which can result in an intern struggle and degradation of the self. This racial argument will also be used by the other culture who is the most dominant. No matter how long the person with a "foreign" culture resides within the most dominant culture, a certain border will remain and cause a social burden.

Therfore I see taking pride in ones own culture as a neccesity to maintain a healthy social and psychological view.


I don't mean disrespect here but I honestly don't see a shred of logic in that point. It is never the correct thing to accept something illogical and meaningless because it makes you have an easier time.

I cannot believe I've heard such a suggestion from someone rolling in a satanist crowd like this. I mean this is just like when christians reply to logical argument with "Yeah well, I know it doesn't seem to logical but it makes me feel so much better. It gives me so much happiness and hope in life." Completely writing off the fact that what they believe is complete nonsense for the fact that it's a helpful lie. A thin denial. Not touching the fact that racial pride is something without any meaning but going to defend its mental benefits?

And then going to say that embracing a denial on both sides is the healthy thing to do? I mean could you elaborate a little because what you just presented and drew a bold conclusion from was pretty thin.

Top
#40404 - 07/17/10 09:32 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: TV is God]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I think cultural and racial pride are two different things.

You can take pride in your family history, culture, and historical background. It is what you grew up in, what you learned about your family's background and place in history. It helps to make up you, it gives a small sense of identity in regards to your role in society.

You are not going to find a Mexican speaking or understanding an Italian dialect. Just like you won't find a Southerner who thinks its a good thing the North won the Civil War.

As for Racial pride, in a way its good, and in a way its bad. I think there is too much political correctness running around in regards to not hurting anyone's feelings or singling anyone out regarding racial profiling possible terrorists.

I don't think anyone group is better than any other. I think when you live up to your racial stereotype, you are your stereotype. There are tons of idiot's in every group and they come in every color. With that in mind, I don't care who fucks who and has whatever color baby. I just think it will be a sad ass fucked up world if everyone end up being the same color/race/etc. I like the differences.

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#40415 - 07/18/10 02:01 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: Morgan]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
I've been away for a while, very busy, but I think I can bring some interesting points here. I live in, and grew up in schools where the population is mostly Black. The reason most seem to not succeed, as I have noticed, is their perceptions of themselves. A black kid that is told he is smart and can succeed is more likely to succeed. However, integrated in black culture is the idea of "the man keeping you down." So it comes down to psychology. When you truly believe you are being oppressed, and that is how the world is in your mind, even if you start to succeed you will subconsciously find a way to screw it up so you can go "See, I told you I can't succeed." A bit like the same way a woman in an abusive relationship will get out of it just to find another person that will abuse her. That is what she expects from the world and she subconsciously seeks it.

After saying that, I do have to say that I think genetics does play a role, though not as strong of one as the psychological aspect. I am not saying that black people are inferior. From my observations, I have seen a few black people who are extremely smart that have no problem succeeding unless psychological factors hold them back, a portion of average intelligence that could at the very least function as productive members of society, and I must unfortunately admit (this is going to be very unPC) a rather large portion that are dumb as a box of shit.

If you look into the history of slavery, the African slaves were bred like cattle by their masters. They selected qualities that made them good workers in the field: strength, endurance, but not intelligence. In fact, intelligence was often selected against. Considering this situation, I would suspect that the smartest ones were able to hide their intelligence, and that something to what I have observed would be a likely result. Mind you much of this is speculation, but it is the most reasonable explanation I've been able to find to account for my observations.

There is a distinction that I've seen many people make, even black people. That is "There is a difference between a black person and a nigger." In fact, I've heard this more from black people than from white people. Could this actually be an unconscious acknowledgment of the very thing I'm talking about?

Just to make sure I'm clear, I believe their seeming inability to succeed (not that there aren't black people that do succeed), is most strongly due to psychological influences of a culture that has been oppressed for many generations. However, I think an unusually large proportion of African Americans might actually just be too stupid to succeed even without the psychological detriment. Yet this would have more to do with breeding patterns forced upon them in times of slavery and I would suspect would be fairly isolated to the United States.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

Top
#40419 - 07/18/10 04:04 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: TV is God]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
I don't mean disrespect here but I honestly don't see a shred of logic in that point. It is never the correct thing to accept something illogical and meaningless because it makes you have an easier time.

Perhaps you do not see the logic since you were never confronted with such an experience, or have never heard/seen such things happen.

 Quote:
I cannot believe I've heard such a suggestion from someone rolling in a satanist crowd like this. I mean this is just like when christians reply to logical argument with "Yeah well, I know it doesn't seem to logical but it makes me feel so much better. It gives me so much happiness and hope in life." Completely writing off the fact that what they believe is complete nonsense for the fact that it's a helpful lie. A thin denial. Not touching the fact that racial pride is something without any meaning but going to defend its mental benefits?

If you've read a little better then you should have noticed I was talking about CULTURAL pride (ie history and achievements of the culture you originate from), not racial pride.
However, I do belief that racial pride can in some cases be linked towards the cultural pride. I see it as something natural to be proud of how you look like. This can vary from haircut towards skincolor. Know and respect yourself, if you can't live with the fact you are a white boy/girl then you are having a problem. It takes a certain degree of pride and self-respect of race to live with one-self. It may not be a choice you have made, but it is a feature one has to live and cope with his/her entire life. Therfor it is better to take pride in it then to give in towards a greyness in thinking of "egality for all cultures and races". Differences are differences, and they will always remain.

 Quote:
And then going to say that embracing a denial on both sides is the healthy thing to do?

I never said to deny an embracement. I only stated before embracing and exploring the foreign culture a good deal of thinking should be implied in contradiction what happens most of the time (ie embracing the foreign culture in all its facets without modifications and to bring it towards another culture without having taken out the negative sides of immoral/illogical ideas and habits). I also stated that your possible fascination is not shared with other people and it therefor is wise to keep it for oneself and to perhaps "move towards the country of origin from that culture". Trying to spread it here and mentally forcing it down the throat of others who are not interested is seen as social vampirism and at the same level preachers preach their religion to people who are not interested.

 Quote:
I cannot believe I've heard such a suggestion from someone rolling in a satanist crowd like this.

It's not because you never heard it before those people do not exist. While many Satanists claim to stand for confrontation and oposition, many still have an inclination towards political correctness and following the rules of the masses when it comes towards holy subjects of "race". I'm perhaps the first one to speak openly about the subject and to take in this position. And I am convinced there are others around here who share the idea, yet do not jump in for various reasons.


Edited by Dimitri (07/18/10 04:18 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#40424 - 07/18/10 05:40 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dimitri]
TV is God Moderator Offline
Moderator
member


Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
I'm thinking a lot of the issue between our viewpoints is our definition of pride. When I refer to pride I refer to the feeling of satisfaction from accomplishment. When applied to racial pride this is why the only man that could have been proud of being white was Michael Jackson.

Cultural pride? As I see it being part of a culture is no more an accomplishment than being part of a race. You can be proud of something you invent, or modify, or inspire as a piece of that culture but just being proud of choosing a flag to wave? Cultures tend to be what groups of people wouldlike to think they are. To be proud of your culture is most often to pretend you resemble a lifestyle nobody really does.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

Perhaps you do not see the logic since you were never confronted with such an experience, or have never heard/seen such things happen.


Personally I live in an area where the "culture" is closed minded, christian, conservative(in all the sour meanings of the word), anti-art, anti-intellectual culture of phoney cowboy wannabes. If they're not the clowns in cowboy hats they embrace this equally fake "blue collar guy" persona that's the front of so many drunken wife-beaters.

I have had a difficult time getting by in this social climate. Admittedly nowhere near as difficult as one of another race would but still I am an individual not of the culture of my area's majority. What culture am I from? NONE. Culture is a shallow illusion. A denial. To be proud of your culture is to be proud of your tribe's unrealistic self image.


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

If you've read a little better then you should have noticed I was talking about CULTURAL pride (ie history and achievements of the culture you originate from), not racial pride.
However, I do belief that racial pride can in some cases be linked towards the cultural pride. I see it as something natural to be proud of how you look like. This can vary from haircut towards skincolor. Know and respect yourself, if you can't live with the fact you are a white boy/girl then you are having a problem. It takes a certain degree of pride and self-respect of race to live with one-self. It may not be a choice you have made, but it is a feature one has to live and cope with his/her entire life.


I knew you were speaking of cultural pride and my criticism stands for that subject equally. Again pride is for what you accomplish. You speak as if to not be proud of looking one way is to not accept or to dread looking that way. That which you are proud of does not mean that which you like, that which you are grateful for, or that which you are fortunate to have. Everyone seems to want to stretch the meaning of the word to fit all these things in. It takes the self-respect, not the pride. The two are two different things entirely.

I like the way I look as determined by my genetics. Does that mean I'm proud of my genetics? No. It means I feel fortunate for them. You speak of being not proud of these things as if it means being unhappy with them.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

Therfor it is better to take pride in it then to give in towards a greyness in thinking of "egality for all cultures and races". Differences are differences, and they will always remain.


You speak of the two as if they're the only two choices. I'm all for difference and don't pretend all people are equal.
What I said was equality and not egality. By equality I mean not discriminated against or favored based on circumstances beyond your control.
Perhaps I should have been more clear. When I say racial equality I mean not giving a shit what race someone is. When I say cultural equality I mean not giving a shit what culture someone is from. I'm not saying these things are of equal importance, in fact that's the viewpoint I feel adds to the problem. What I mean is that these are of no importance.

I'm all for differences. But only the differences people really have, not the ones they think they have because of their "culture."


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

It's not because you never heard it before those people do not exist. While many Satanists claim to stand for confrontation and oposition, many still have an inclination towards political correctness and following the rules of the masses when it comes towards holy subjects of "race". I'm perhaps the first one to speak openly about the subject and to take in this position. And I am convinced there are others around here who share the idea, yet do not jump in for various reasons.

What I was referring to was not your main point but your particular reaction of not arguing my statement that racial/cultural pride is a denial but defending it's positive mental aspects. Although reading your last post I'm see how this was just a miscommunication. I do apologize for criticizing you on that, I misunderstood what you were saying.


Edited by TV is God (07/18/10 05:43 AM)

Top
#40428 - 07/18/10 06:08 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: TV is God]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
Personally I live in an area where the "culture" is closed minded, christian, conservative(in all the sour meanings of the word), anti-art, anti-intellectual culture of phoney cowboy wannabes. If they're not the clowns in cowboy hats they embrace this equally fake "blue collar guy" persona that's the front of so many drunken wife-beaters.

A culture is not only limited towards the area where you live in. You may live in some sort of bible-belt, but your culture in total reaches way further.

 Quote:
You can be proud of something you invent, or modify, or inspire as a piece of that culture but just being proud of choosing a flag to wave? Cultures tend to be what groups of people wouldlike to think they are. To be proud of your culture is most often to pretend you resemble a lifestyle nobody really does.

Being proud of a flag you wave is cultural pride. What do you think patriotism is? If you are proud of your country or state or city has achieved or what it does, then you have cultural pride. Simple isn't it?

 Quote:
When applied to racial pride this is why the only man that could have been proud of being white was Michael Jackson.

Actually, it is said MJ had a disease which caused his skin to have "uncoloured" spots. The only way to disguise it was whitening his skin. A step towards plastic surgery to fit this solution was small and to him a necessity.


 Quote:
Again pride is for what you accomplish. You speak as if to not be proud of looking one way is to not accept or to dread looking that way. That which you are proud of does not mean that which you like, that which you are grateful for, or that which you are fortunate to have.

I see pride as something you can have about almost anything, how irrational and stupid it might be to others. I can see a person being pride of owning stuff. I can see a person being pride of his race, culture and genes.
My main question to you would be WHY would one take not pride in race or culture? From what I can deduce you think it is irrational. I think and say it is not. Why is it? Because I believe so. You can't prove why you can't take pride, and neither I can prove the opposite. It is but a confrontation of views and belief. And I think the discussion on this case has come to an end since it got towards the level of "yay-nay".

 Quote:
Perhaps I should have been more clear. When I say racial equality I mean not giving a shit what race someone is. When I say cultural equality I mean not giving a shit what culture someone is from. I'm not saying these things are of equal importance, in fact that's the viewpoint I feel adds to the problem. What I mean is that these are of no importance.

I'm all for differences. But only the differences people really have, not the ones they think they have because of their "culture."

While agreeing to a certain extend about the "not giving a shit from where..", I do take harm in promoting a foreign culture without making adjustments to leave out all fallacies and immoral/irrational traditions which can harm the original culture or set rules. I shall not bring and spread Western beliefs personally in the middle-east or other countries, and I would like to have the same attitude from the same people from other countries.


Edited by Dimitri (07/18/10 06:09 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#40429 - 07/18/10 07:09 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dimitri]
TV is God Moderator Offline
Moderator
member


Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
Okay I can accept that it comes down to differing opinions of the meaning and affect of what we can and cannot call pride and what that we make of that. I view pride as an objectively defined concept where you see it as more a subjective way of valuing things for yourself.

Perhaps I'm inclined more to define it this way because my pride is in my choice to reject culture and hold no real interest or special respect for my race, my country, or my heritage. But I can see in a wider view point that I'm taking pride in my non-culture and others get the same feeling from taking pride in culture. Though I still stand by my definition of what pride is I can understand this viewpoint.

But I still see culture as a thin concept. Patriotism too for that matter, but as not to stray too far from the point I won't go into that.(But again I am an american and despite the picture media sometimes paints of us I find americans on average to be the least patriotic of any nationality) Pride in culture affords you to take credit for all the good things people other than yourself accomplished but I doubt most who are willing to take some of that pride are willing to take the shame to go with it.

I mean when you're proud of your heritage and you find out your great grandfather was a serial rapist are you still proud of your heritage rapists and all? Are you proud of all your heritage minus one rapist? Am I proud of my german/irish heritage along with or just forgetting the holocaust and holy wars?


Side note: I'm just waiting for someone to come along and say "Would you two just fuck already?"


Edited by TV is God (07/18/10 07:11 AM)

Top
#40430 - 07/18/10 07:25 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: TV is God]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
I mean when you're proud of your heritage and you find out your great grandfather was a serial rapist are you still proud of your heritage rapists and all? Are you proud of all your heritage minus one rapist? Am I proud of my german/irish heritage along with or just forgetting the holocaust and holy wars?

I prefer to take a look at history and how it affected my well-being now. It may be possible one of my great-grand parents was involved in execution of the holocaust, or a serial murderer or a rapist. And while people as narrow-minded as they are, I am not that person. I am a decendant but most of all yet another individual with a mind of his own who is trying to build his life on values who are presumably right. While that great-grand-father may have been a rotten spot, it will in no way represent an entire "culture"/family-attitude no matter how hard anyone tries. It will represent the culture or family-attitude if, and only if, there are many more cases in the same trend as that person to the extend that such cases outweigh in numbers the normal ones.

 Quote:
I'm just waiting for someone to come along and say "Would you two just fuck already?"

Sorry, I am a straight guy; I like boobs, booze and bottoms.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#40431 - 07/18/10 07:55 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dimitri]
TV is God Moderator Offline
Moderator
member


Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
Speaking of bottoms I know you're into trying to preserve the culture and race you're proud of but if you like the bottoms you go black. Now those are some asses to be culturally and racially PROUD of! ;\)
Top
#40437 - 07/18/10 01:30 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: TV is God]
Morbid Rex Offline
member


Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 130
As a "colored individual" I'm glad to see that for the most part this thread was full of reasonable opinions and answers other than mindless race bashing. With that said I'd like to add that this is a topic that interests me a lot, but because of the fact that I'm sleepy and most of the good points I was going to make have already been stated I'll just add on a little bit. Plus it couldn't hurt to hear the opinion of an "African American" himself on this issue ;).

I believe when approaching this question you should use a variety of data ranging from historical, to observational, to scientific, those are the three main intellectual avenues I try to use when it comes to the question of black performance in America and abroad, and to me what it comes down to is not simply a matter of nature or nurture, but a combination of both.

You must keep in mind that intelligence was highly frowned upon by the White slave masters in the South, as pointed out the slaves were not bred to be smart, but to be work horses. The only book that the slaves were familair with was The Bible because it offered comfort and had passages which supported slavery, and as you can imagine most slaves had a low literacy rate, so I'm sure they took the good book very literally (hence why so many African Americans are so illogically religious today.)

Fast forward a few years and the slaves are emancipated, they are "free", but they're free into a world which is as alien to them as when their ancestors arrived. They are not prepared for life in the Anglo Saxon America, which still despite giving them freedom, harbors mistrust and resentment towards their group. Many of them, lacking education or any skills outside of manual labor become indentured servants, thus going right back to the life they were told they would be freed from. Eventually some move into the White majority cities, but of course the classy and educated Whites want nothing to do with these lowly savages and White flight takes place, thus all the skilled educated Whites leave behind their unprepared bastard children in these new cities to fend for themselves. Now you have families of unskilled and uneducated people populating this city, with nobody there to keep property value up, thus ghettoization takes place and you end up with places like Detroit.

Generations and generations begin to enter upon the scene from these "forgotten children" of the American slave economy, and adversity continues to keep them from reaching the "American dream" soon a twisted culture begins to develop. Not one that is based upon the lily White American dream, but one that is based off of a thug mentality, gangsterdom, instant gratification and the perpetuation of stupidity on every level; after all the deadbeat cornerstore alcoholoic and his equally lowly wife (IF he and his woman are married to begin with) aren't exactly candidates to produce a child capable of becoming a famous brain surgeon.

With that said it isn't all doom and gloom for the Black American, across the board IQ is increasing (look up the Flynn Effect), and the Black IQ is gaining on the White IQ. Also it seems that the Blacks who have been a part of a wider reality, other then this construed Ghetto American life where status if achieved from being the most Hood, are much better off when it comes to education. African Blacks who immigrate to America regularly outperform Black Americans on an educational level. And for that matter, IQ is a slippery slope which still isn't very well defined. As an example try this thought experiment which relates to the topic at hand. Gruff British Empire educated hunter goes to the Dark Continent on exploration, meets the savage neighbors and dedcides to test their reasoning skills from the viewpoint of the British Empire. They conclude that based off of their test taking skills, these people are inferior. Now it's the savages turn, they decide to test out Mr. British Huntsman, and they find that the fool cannot construct a hut to save his life, read the stars to navigate where he's going and is thus easily lost in the jungle, and is all around a bumbling idiot when it comes to survival.

You see where I'm going with this I'm sure.
_________________________
Do I dare disturb the universe

Satanism! The only scientifically proven religion.

Top
#40439 - 07/18/10 02:00 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Morbid Rex]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1753
Loc: New York
I find your points to be totally valid, and logical. I have to give you a lot of credit for being able to look at the situation so objectively, instead of emotionally.

If you are completely right however, then how would one explain that a very large number of the “American Black” population continues to have so much difficulty in modern society even though they have had at least three generations of opportunities specifically aimed at helping them to get ahead. I am mainly talking about affirmative action, and special treatment in regards to colleges accepting them even if they fall shorter then some whites in regards to their qualifications for admittance.

On a side note, just to show that I am coming from an Objective point of view and not a prejudiced one, I can freely admit that if you can write as clearly and well as you just did in that last post even though you are “tired,” you are probably better educated and perhaps more intelligent then I am. My point is that I have absolutely no qualms about admitting if I am out classed by anyone of any race, belief, or ethnicity, which is the reason that I also do not have any qualms making statements to the opposite in certain discussions.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

Top
#40441 - 07/18/10 02:36 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Asmedious]
Morbid Rex Offline
member


Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 130
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
I find your points to be totally valid, and logical. I have to give you a lot of credit for being able to look at the situation so objectively, instead of emotionally.

If you are completely right however, then how would one explain that a very large number of the “American Black” population continues to have so much difficulty in modern society even though they have had at least three generations of opportunities specifically aimed at helping them to get ahead. I am mainly talking about affirmative action, and special treatment in regards to colleges accepting them even if they fall shorter then some whites in regards to their qualifications for admittance.

On a side note, just to show that I am coming from an Objective point of view and not a prejudiced one, I can freely admit that if you can write as clearly and well as you just did in that last post even though you are “tired,” you are probably better educated and perhaps more intelligent then I am. My point is that I have absolutely no qualms about admitting if I am out classed by anyone of any race, belief, or ethnicity, which is the reason that I also do not have any qualms making statements to the opposite in certain discussions.


Well firstly I'm not as versed in contemporary educational situations as much as I am with how the current ghetto culture got to be the way it is, so I don't expect to answer this as well as I maybe could. But if I had to think about it, I would say Affirmative Actions hurts more then helps. I prefer a
pull yourself up by the bootstraps" approach to that problem. No sense in giving people a fish without teaching them how to fish themselves, eh? I also personally think this problem might still stem from culture and even subconcious (& concious) feelings of inferiority.

Despite the fact that I, and I'm sure you know otherwise, there are many Blacks who still feel resentment towards the American system and feel as though it is intentionally set up to keep them down. Thus there's this pervasive attitude of "why try if I'll never be as good" attitude that goes around. There's also the idiotic idea that achievement = trying to be white among some members of the Black community. I actually witnessed an older Black man given me a horrible look when I was walking by the Mall one day with a book I had just purchased there, I gave the coward a snarl right back and of course he looked away, but I digress.

The point is, achieving high success is seen as selling out among some American Blacks. I think the problem is that Blacks engage in group thinking entirely too much, it makes sense given the history of the people as a defense mechanism, but nowadays I think it just hinders more than helps. Some groups like Asians seem to benefit from it, but Blacks have too much of a "crab in the bucket" mentality. Thankfully I've learned to be an individual and judge others on their individual merit as opposed to such foolish mentalities.
_________________________
Do I dare disturb the universe

Satanism! The only scientifically proven religion.

Top
#40449 - 07/18/10 04:56 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Morbid Rex]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
 Originally Posted By: Morbid Rex

Well firstly I'm not as versed in contemporary educational situations as much as I am with how the current ghetto culture got to be the way it is, so I don't expect to answer this as well as I maybe could. But if I had to think about it, I would say Affirmative Actions hurts more then helps. I prefer a
pull yourself up by the bootstraps" approach to that problem. No sense in giving people a fish without teaching them how to fish themselves, eh?


You're not alone. When I was a Senior in high school, I had a government class and the question of affirmative actions came up. Keep in mind I went to a school with a very high black population, I was one of 4 white people in the class. Nobody thought affirmative action was a good idea, preferring to make it on their own hard work. Though by this time a class that started out with 2,000 students dwindled down to 200, so this was a group of the more intelligent people than one might find in a normal situation.

Side note, they were fun as hell to hang out with. They went as far as starting to consider me black as well, even though I'm so pale I practically glow in the dark and I can't stand main stream rap, hip-hop, and R&B (some underground stuff is pretty good). I was able to get away with saying and doing things most white people can only dream of without being called racist and/or having negative social consequences.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

Top
#40452 - 07/18/10 05:45 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1753
Loc: New York
I had a black coworker, and our views on race did not click. One time he brought me a book, titled something like “Great Black Men.” When he gave it to me, I noticed that it was about two hundred or so pages long. I told him that I could give him a book about great white men. It’s called the “Encyclopedia.” Of course this was all in fun, and most of the time we laughed about our disagreements to the point of almost pissing ourselves. I think that the reason we got along so well was that although race came up often in conversation, our other views clicked in regards to women, our job and music.

Totally off topic but funny as hell.

One day he wrote in a patients progress note an entry that was about a whole page long. Detailing how he went into the patients room, watched tv with him for about an hour, and had a really good “discussion,” with the guy about the program and “other stuff.”
The charge nurse then pointed out to him, “Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that guy has been dead since this morning. We are waiting for the funeral home to pick up his body.”
His response was classic, “OH SHIT man, I was wondering why I was doing all the talking.”

This actually happened, which is why I still laugh about it, when I remember it.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

Top
#40454 - 07/18/10 06:16 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Asmedious]
Morbid Rex Offline
member


Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 130
Sounds like a cool guy but as for his book....yeah..."Great Black Men" sounds like some Afrocentric stuff of the Pseudo Science variety. Some of the older stuff like The Negro Problem is worth the read but it seems like some of these guys just like to bend the facts. I also don't get their preoccupation with Egypt as if that were the only civilization worth mentioning to exist in Africa. It makes well known Black kingdoms like Nubia, Great Zimbabwe the Songhai empires or the Zulus become less valid. Although the Zulu's didn't achieve the type of stuff those other places did they still have a pretty cool history, Shaka Zulu was an interesting leader that completely revolutionized Zulu warfare.
_________________________
Do I dare disturb the universe

Satanism! The only scientifically proven religion.

Top
#40534 - 07/20/10 02:45 AM Re: Black People in America [Re: Morbid Rex]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1147
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Morbid Rex

There's also the idiotic idea that achievement = trying to be white among some members of the Black community... The point is, achieving high success is seen as selling out among some American Blacks.


This is exactly what I'm referring to when I talk about a "culture of poverty." Unfortunately, a lot of blacks identify the culture of poverty as "black culture" because they see a lot of blacks in it. :P Because white people define their own identities through some other group/label (Christian, American, Intellectual, Woman, Artist, etc) instead of seeing themselves primarily as a color, they can embody their self-perception in a healthy way. Even if he uses his ethnic background to identify himself, he usually sees himself in terms of "Irish" instead of "white." If, however, an individual insists on forging an identity as a "black" guy, he's not got a lot to go on besides buying into crap. It should be noted, however, that those white men who do define themselves as "white" specifically usually end up every bit as pathetic (redneck trailer trash). And there are whites who identify with the "culture of poverty" too; their idea of "keeping it real" is blue-collar, working-class, don't-need-no-education stuff as well. But blacks are more likely to get sucked into it simply because there are more blacks living in poverty to begin with.


Edited by XiaoGui17 (07/20/10 02:46 AM)
_________________________
Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

Top
#41235 - 08/01/10 07:24 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Dakota]
SODOMIZER Offline
pledge


Registered: 07/04/10
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: Dakota
The statistics in general tell me the have a lower IQ


If someone has a lower IQ, it's not their fault that they are impoverished. They are simply less capable.

Where did you find this IQ information?
_________________________
SC / O9A

Top
#41242 - 08/01/10 08:46 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: SODOMIZER]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
"Hi, this is Dakota. As you can see from the title under my avatar, I've been banned so I can't answer any of your questions in the foreseeable future. Thanks!"
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

Top
#41284 - 08/02/10 03:32 PM Re: Black People in America [Re: Nemesis]
SODOMIZER Offline
pledge


Registered: 07/04/10
Posts: 61
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
"Hi, this is Dakota. As you can see from the title under my avatar, I've been banned so I can't answer any of your questions in the foreseeable future. Thanks!"


Thanks for the heads-up. Well, that's a bummer, although there was something weird about the way Dakota phrased his/her message.
_________________________
SC / O9A

Top
Page all of 3 123>


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.041 seconds of which 0.002 seconds were spent on 49 queries. Zlib compression disabled.