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#28487 - 08/15/09 07:16 PM Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Regarding the little pairing of these two organizations, it amazes me that they can coexist peacefully, let alone affiliate themselves with one another.

Vampires pride themselves on their ability to "feed" off of others' energies for their own gain.

One of the basic tenets of LaVeyan Satanism is "...responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!"

Are the CoS members so naive that they think they are "off limits" to the ToV members? That is incredibly sad (read: pathetic), if that is the case. Or is CoS so hard-up for membership that they decided to pair up with ToV to help bring in the cash flow?

Speculation on this odd partnership was brought to mind after reading this article from my local paper.

V is for Voracious: Vampire Culture Revealed

But they do feel a need to feed on others, whether that means absorbing energy or blood. They call themselves vampires and consider their yearnings a physical affliction. They say they can't absorb energy like "mundanes," who often start every morning revved up for the day. They wake drained, needing to be charged.

Some feed on blood volunteered by donors who allow them to cut their skin and drink.

Some feed during sex, drawing from strong energy bonds with their lovers.

And some "psychic" feed, sipping life energy from the auras of others.

Not everyone at the Gathering at the Castle is a vampire. Some are "black swans" — allies who might donate their blood.

Jennifer, 33, is an "ambient" feeder. She doesn't need physical contact, or even one target. She says she can feed off the energies of a bunch of people who are all focused on the same thing.

Vampires go to highly charged events to ambient feed — rock concerts, political rallies. Evangelical churches are a buffet.



Full article here .

Although I guess since the CoS has become little more than a bunch of let's-play-dress-up Satanists, it only makes sense to link with another group of Halloween costume-wearing bottom feeders.
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#28488 - 08/15/09 07:34 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Nemesis]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1751
Loc: New York
The impression that I have, is that many of the high ranking members of the C/S (correct abbreviation for the Church of Satan, thanks Jake) have in a sense taken over the ToV. By doing this they can sucker poor shmucks who need to be a part of something bigger then themselves and have a place to spend their money, and feel superior to others.

The leadership of the ToV, who are also high ranking members of the C/S, have a way to make some extra cash, and get a big ego boost at the same time, by claiming to be “chosen ones” or whatever, without directly getting the C/S involved in the bullshit.

To be really honest, I can't blame them for this. I'm a kid at heart myself and would also enjoy playing dress up and Vampire while being looked up to by some losers, while making money off of them.
However, the ridicule that I would receive from people that I may respect who do not realize that I am aware that it's all an act (because I couldn't admit it to anyone in fear that my charade might be revealed), would not be worth the ego boost, and the few extra bucks.


Edited by Asmedious (08/15/09 07:39 PM)
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#28490 - 08/15/09 07:56 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Asmedious]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Ah I see. So C/S members have effectively become the very thing they are supposed to be against. Hilarious.

They might be better off officially combining the two organizations and coming up with a new name altogether.

I'm all for dress-up too, don't get me wrong, but I only reserve that for special occasions, and I am never under the impression that others will take me seriously when I'm in costume. If I ever saw one of these vampires in Ybor, I probably wouldn't be able to keep myself from laughing.


Edited by Nemesis (08/15/09 07:56 PM)
Edit Reason: it's like raaaaaaiiiinnn on your wedding day
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#28491 - 08/15/09 07:59 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Asmedious]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
The CoS is based in New York City.
The Tov is based in ???

In New York City and the surrounding areas, there is a HUGE vampire community. Lots of people and ages, its been well above ground for over 10 plus years. The groups have members all over the world especially in France, German, and Japan. There are various events every week if you know where to look.

Some of the NYC vamps look at vampirism in the preditory manner more than the just dress up overdone gothic type way.

It is from the preditory outlook that mixes with the Satanism.
It was this way before the CoS moved here. By tapping into the Vampire market, perhaphs the CoS is looking to expand its influence and make some money off of new members.

I am not saying that every vamp is a Tov member or that every satanists is a vamp, or even that every CoS member is a Tov member. There is a huge amount of people here that are both satanists and vamps or have vampire like tendencies without belonging to either group and I think that is the cash market they are trying to tap.

Morgan
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#28493 - 08/15/09 08:09 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Nemesis]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1751
Loc: New York
I think the whole point of keeping the two entites separate, is that the C/S members, (the more intelligent ones) who are not also ToV members, don’t have to deal with the obvious hypocrisy.

Even though I had some highly charged discussions with people like Nemo, on LTTD site, even to a point where he ended up blocking me from himself, I still held that site, and the C/S in high regard.
I don’t have to agree with someone in order to still respect them.

However, once I discovered the ToV and C/S connection, I lost all respect for the C/S. Not so much because some of their members were part of the ToV, but because of the obvious support that they gave the ToV.

If the C/S would have come out and stated what a ridiculous organization the ToV is, and attempted to publicly distance themselves from it, I would still respect the C/S as an organization, even though I disagree with much of their ways at this point.

When I discovered that Mr. Venture, who runs the LTTD, was a major player in the ToV, it was kind of like discovering that Santa Claus was a big fake.
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#28510 - 08/16/09 06:11 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Asmedious]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I thought I would include this link to a story I came across on one of my email lists. Its about the Miami vamps. I thought it was an interesting read.


http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/v-is-for-voracious-vampir\
e-culture-unveiled/1027763
<http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/v-is-for-voracious-vampi\
re-culture-unveiled/1027763>

Oh, and Asmedious, its funny but once I found out Venture was involved with the Tov, it kinda lost any interest for me, plus it kinda explained the other stuff that happened.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#28513 - 08/16/09 06:37 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Morgan]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Hahaha, Morg, that's the exact article I quoted and posted a link to. And it's in Tampa, not Miami ;\) Ybor City is the club district in Tampa.
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#28516 - 08/16/09 06:52 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Nemesis]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Vamps in Ybor City???? I bet they don't get any Cuban in their Cuban Sandwiches either!

Things must be changing in the Tampa/St. Pete area. Maybe I need to go visit my sister and do some in depth investigations.
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#28519 - 08/16/09 10:13 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Nemesis]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Damn, sorry.
I thought it looked kinda familiar but....

Yeah, I kinda suck sometimes. lol

\:\)


M
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#28540 - 08/17/09 03:55 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Nemesis]
Final Conflict Offline
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Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 47
There is more to the ToV than meets the eye. For those who are curious, it started in 1989 nearby Lacey, WA (where their PO Box is located) by Lucas Martel, who now goes by the moniker "Nemo."

The story of Lucas Martel and who he is and what he's all about it is actually very complex and would take up a good few pages of discussion, so we'll leave that out for now.

As I stated on another post (I think my first one here, actually) Nemo and Gilmore and very good friends and have known each other since the 1980s during the heyday of "The Black Flame," so that's one of the main reasons why the CoS and ToV are so closely linked together. And they have been linked together since the ToV first began.

Most of the ToV members are not the stereotypical, cliche sort of vampire wannabes. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that most of them aren't even remotely connected to the goth or "vampire lifestyle" scenes. It may have been like that in the beginning, but most of the ones I've come across in recent years are just really ordinary and mundane.

They are also headed in a more sci-fi direction since Nemo now requires any ToV members wishing to be elevated to the priesthood to sign up for cryonic preservation at one of those centers, which costs tens of thousands of dollars.

He keeps changing the requirements every now and then and even changing some parts of the ToV mythology. Up until a few years ago you could purchase the whole series of "vampire bibles" all at once, but then things really started hitting the fan when people like Michelle Belanger (an even more serious headcase than Nemo) started using ToV techniques as part of their own "psychic vampire" temples and orders. There are a whole bunch of these lunatics out there now and it all really began with Nemo and the ToV.

And for those who are curious, theoretically some aspects of the ToV are not necessarily incompatible with the CoS. When you move up the ladder you discover that the so-called "Undead Gods" don't really exist and that the whole thing is just a major exercise in suspension of disbelief, which is necessary in order to make the illusion real. Or some such nonsense.

The definition of "psychic vampirism" in the ToV is also different from LaVey's definition in the Satanic Bible, thus they are able to reconcile the apparent contradiction, at least in their own minds.

It's an interesting con game and pyramid scheme like Scientology, but the sad part of it all is that the people running it (just like the Hubbardians) actually and quite sincerely believe in this psuedo-mystical garbage.

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#28544 - 08/17/09 04:43 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Final Conflict]
jesusbeater Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/15/07
Posts: 79
Loc: Ireland
I saw a documentary on vampires last year that actually focused on the ToV for about half of it.I have to admit I was kind of shocked by how much its actually spread over the years. That Nemo(fairly sure it was him) fella was on it, he came across as the typical anime vampire wanna be but actually seemed like a decent enough guy(on the doc.).Alot of the goings on suggested that they were maybe involved with some form of organised crime, but this was only mildly suggested by the director and never actually proven or expanded on.
One part of the documentary actually introduced him to a guy in Germany(could be another European country) that had recently been released from prison after murdering a few people.The murders were labeled as vampiric murders as the killer had drank some of the victims blood, however the killer never claimed to be a vampire and preferred to be called a blood fetishist.The tension was unbelievable as it was quiet obvious that the killer absolutely detested Nemo and really wasn't too happy with the comparisons being made between the two.He proceeded to tell Nemo about the murders and asked him if he ever did anything similar and suggested that if he stuck around long enough, maybe something similar might happen to him. After the meeting it was fairly obvious the Nemo was shaken.The rest of the doc showed lower level members performing amateurish rituals and talked to a guy that thought he was a werewolf but was happy that the ToV had accepted him!I must look back through my collection and see if I still have it so I can put up proper details and its name for anyone interested in seeing it.
All in all, I couldn't care less about CoS or ToV, both come across to me as harmless enough groups, full of posers and confused teens that will more than likely grow up to be re born cretins. its like giving out about a group from Warhammer having ties with a Dungeons and Dragons group. If people want to buy into it and are happy enough, who cares.And if they're stupid enough to part with their(parents) hard earned money, that's their problem.
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#28583 - 08/17/09 09:49 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: jesusbeater]
Final Conflict Offline
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Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 47
I would love to see this documentary if you can find the title of it. Nemo is pretty reclusive as far as the media goes, so I'd be surprised if it was him. If he was dressed up rather fancily with a cane (which I suppose has become his trademark), then it was probably him. He is intelligent and well-read, and was originally an Objectivist (Ayn Rand) before becoming a Satanist.

The ToV is against blood drinking, though, at least publicly. They disowned one of their members, Nicholas Strathloch (who was a regular at Club Fang in Los Angeles, a so-called "vampire club"), way back in the late 90s because he appeared on an A&E documentary discussing his membership in the ToV and showing him licking the blood of one of his "donors."

I agree that they're harmless enough, especially considering that they started out advertising in the back pages of magazines and spamming Usenet (so much for their claims of being an ancient secret society), but what most people find disconcerting is the fact that most of the current CoS leadership (the Council of Nine) are also members of the ToV.

This fact alone has driven a lot of sensible people away from the CoS, tarnished LaVey's legacy, and encourages the wrong sort of people to join the CoS (the same types that Gilmore claims to want to avoid allowing into the Church.)

There was another poster elsewhere on this forum, I forget the name, who mentioned something about survival of the fittest and that all of this is simply reflective of the CoS's inability to thrive beyond the death of its founder. Thus far, it's losing, and there's not much anyone can do about that. It's sad, especially for those of us who have been part of the CoS for a long time and had known LaVey personally, but such is life.

The concept of stratification is revealing that ultimately Satanism and organizations (with all their titles, positions, ranks, rules, politics, etc) are inherently incompatible. I never really agreed with that in the beginning, but as the years have passed it's become clear that the problem has, from the very beginning, been the issue of organization. Anytime you get a group of people together you're going to have problems, and when this group of people are die-hard individualists, then any collective pursuit is bound to failure.

Otherwise, you end up with holy cows (so that one always feels like they're stepping on eggshells), and huge tomes of dogma and ideology, enough rules and regulations that one feels bound to let go some part of their individuality in order to conform with the majority of the group.

The ToV has only furthered my conclusions in this regard since no questioning of the relationship between the CoS and ToV is allowed and even within the ToV, the group is organized around a rigid caste system with titles and ranks not dissimilar to the absurdities of the Golden Dawn, OTO, and all the other "enlightened orders of wisdom."

Dr. LaVey was adamantly opposed to all of this, since there's no point to any of it and furthermore it fuels the idea that someone of higher rank is more "enlightened" and privy to secret knowledge than those below. Fundamentally, this is incompatible with Satanism since there is no "secret" knowledge - there is only knowledge that can be experienced objectively in the here and now, not through some mystical communications or "communions" (as with the ToV) with unseen entities or meditating for hours and hours in the hope of achieving some sort of nirvana, which even in the case of the ToV they're beginning to move away from the idea of spiritual immortality towards this even more unusual obsession with cryonics and life extension research.

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#29522 - 09/13/09 12:21 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Final Conflict]
Prometheus9 Offline
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Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 37
I've usually chalked it up to the ToV being a kind of organizational "Total Environment" for folks that get off on the Fangs and Frills set.
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#29523 - 09/13/09 02:29 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Final Conflict]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
There was another poster elsewhere on this forum, I forget the name, who mentioned something about survival of the fittest and that all of this is simply reflective of the CoS's inability to thrive beyond the death of its founder. Thus far, it's losing, and there's not much anyone can do about that. It's sad, especially for those of us who have been part of the CoS for a long time and had known LaVey personally, but such is life.

The principle of "survival of the fittest" doesn't really apply to the CoS or any other organisation based upon a philosophy or doctrines. It is only when an organisation becomes stagnant that the proverbial ship is being sunk. CoS nowadays doesn't bring forth something "new" or "mindblowing". It has become an organ which doesn't suit a very real purpose in the body called "society" or on a personal level, apart from being maybe something in honour to ASL and distributor of books about Satanism in general.

CoS was but a mere tool for distribution and indulgence of the topic "Satanism" (even better, ASL's view on the world and his persuation that humans just once would open their eyes and see the BS floating around as shown in his point of view). It's role was in contradiction with the main principles of the philosophy. The tool is becomming weary and will probably not last long anymore, unless there will be a dramatic change or action in which it will be taken back to the frontline. But that will just be a temporarely halt of execution.

Satanism was and is a philosophy for the human who wants to be an individual. And while some views differ, it is in my humble opinion normal that persons who call themselves (or label themselves) theistic satanists truly are Satanists IF they apply and understand the principle of self-betterment and other important statements which are common in LHP-philosophies and/or Satanism. I admit I catch myself regularly on calling the theist Satanists "inverted Christians", and while my reasons for doing so may or may not be valid to some, understanding is the very first step.

* I can call the Temple of Set a bunch wannabe's or fake Satanists because they "worship Set and other Egyptian deities", the only thing why the ToS is still respected and to some degree considered as very Satanic is for the main reason that the temple contains information and persuades it's followers to apply and understand the Satanic principles. People discrediting the ToS for having a theistic smell and therefor calling it "unsatanic" or "pretenders of the throne" ought to be shot on sight just for this.

The point I want to get across is: why bother ToV and the CoS are having some kind of relationship? The only negative aspect I can come up with is but the mere fact that some people simply don't like ToV because of "...." and therefor hate to see the two of them becoming friends.

There only is Satanism. No special forms of "agnostic Satanism, theistic,..." for it only gives away personal views about gods and your position towards them, and quite honestly: I don't think no one really cares as long as there is no bitching or whining about, or even meddling with important affairs because of your views.


* for the sake of simplicity I just used a common misconception about ToS which is being used quite often as a point of critic.

On a side-note: it's not adressed at you personally Final_Conflict.
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#29537 - 09/14/09 03:45 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Dimitri]
Final Conflict Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 47
 Quote:
The point I want to get across is: why bother ToV and the CoS are having some kind of relationship? The only negative aspect I can come up with is but the mere fact that some people simply don't like ToV because of "...." and therefor hate to see the two of them becoming friends.


The main point of opposition in regards to the ToV is the fact that it is a pyramid scheme not unlike Scientology, in that members are required to fork over an increasing amount of "donations" as you progress up the levels. For the last few years Nemo has also required members wishing to advance into the higher ranks to spend thousands of dollars on cryogenic preservation and if they refuse, they're thrown out.

Now, people can spend their money on whatever bullshit they want, whether ToV or Scientology. It's their money and they have the right to do whatever they want with it. But when most of the leadership of the Church of Satan are not only members of the ToV, but actively recruit people, particularly younger CoS members, into the ToV with the promise of uncovering the hidden secrets to physical and spiritual immortality, there is clearly a problem.

Not least of which is the fact that the beliefs and practices of the ToV are inherently incompatible with Dr. LaVey's philosophy. If you read all of their books (the series of "Vampire Bibles"), they engage in meditative practices which could be construed as a form of voluntary brainwashing. Scientology operates much in the same way.

Keep in mind the ToV is not "theistic" in the same way that the ToS is theistic. I don't know a lot about the ToS so I can't really comment, but from what little I know, it doesn't appear to have anything in common at all with the ToV as far as their beliefs.

The ToV promotes the idea of "communion" with Vampire Gods, which basically involves sacrificing your own lifeforce to these alleged gods and allowing them to drain you and possess you and all sorts of other kinds of horrorshow. Again, this sort of ridiculous behavior and belief is not compatible with Satanism.

 Quote:
There only is Satanism. No special forms of "agnostic Satanism, theistic,..." for it only gives away personal views about gods and your position towards them, and quite honestly: I don't think no one really cares as long as there is no bitching or whining about, or even meddling with important affairs because of your views.


I agree that there are no special forms of Satanism, but this is precisely the problem. Satanism as a religion and philosophy begins with Dr. LaVey and there was absolutely no theism involved.

So-called "theistic" or "traditional" Satanism is rather moot since no such practices ever existed in history. It's fine for people to believe what they want, but it has nothing to do with Dr. LaVey. The Satanic Bible is quite explicit about this.

I respect Dr. Aquino's views, though I disagree with him, but at the same time, I don't even think he has ever claimed that LaVey ever advocated or engaged in devil worship. Theistic Satanists are devil worshippers, pure and simple. The ToS does not appear to advocate the worship of any kind of deity or devil.

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