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#40687 - 07/23/10 08:21 AM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
As Dan said, you are describing this site.

"I have personally for example never belonged to a Satanic organization."

I think this site in a way qualifies as an organization. It has been around for 10+ years, a stable core membership, intelligent conversation, and individuals meetings/meet-ups both on and off line.

So what language is it written in? Where are you from? Your cultural upbringing might be the thing that puts a slant on how you view things verses the nuances of the language difference/meaning of words.

I will go reread it and comment on what you wrote on the other thread. There were many items that I agreed with, but some stuff that was already discussed that I didn't.

Morgan
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#40699 - 07/23/10 04:06 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Morgan]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Well I wouldnít call The 600 club a Satanic organization per se but I do see the points you make and they are all valid ones.

I was born and raised in Sweden (but nor currently living there) and that might be why my views differ from most people I have discussed with on this website. In general it is very easy to tell if a person is an American or a European based on certain ďholding pointsĒ in their philosophy.

The nuances in the language may be reflected by this as well. I think I have a good grasp on the English language but I probably know British English more than American English and since it is my second language I may make the certain connections or assumption of English words in relation to their Swedish counterparts.

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#40701 - 07/23/10 05:00 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane

I believe you may be right about the amount of Satanists and how a digital medium may be the ideal thing right now except for local groups that may be able to do something in "the real world" as well so to speak.


"Do" ... what?

The general tone of your messages in this thread seem to indicate that you believe that Laveyan Satanism has an underlying imperative to proselytize or help others "achieve something".

If that's not what you're talking about, then all that's left is communication and idea-sharing, which exists, as has been pointed out several times, in this forum.

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane

The shortcomings I perceive has to do with the amount of research and development and knowledge of history that is available in the Satanic milieu (especially in written form by self-professed Satanists).


I'm sensing you desire some sort of "authoritative" formal organization backing it, which is of course nonsensical. Morgan has listed several items that are probably the best you're going to get that comes close to your definition of "research".

Since you believe it would be beneficial for Satanists the world over, then you should view this as a golden opportunity for you to be a trailblazer by publishing new work on the topic.
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#40703 - 07/23/10 05:15 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Autodidact]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
The new guy hit the nail right on the head and drove it home. This is exactly what I have been saying all along. Satanism is about sculpting ones own subjective universe. The idea of some imperative to organize as a group and do 'something' seems to me to rub directly against the grain.

How would a Satanic organization benefit me?

Why should I devote any of my precious time or effort to goals that I do not directly own?
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#40709 - 07/23/10 07:25 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Dan_Dread]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Autodidact
 Quote:
"Do" ... what?

The general tone of your messages in this thread seem to indicate that you believe that Laveyan Satanism has an underlying imperative to proselytize or help others "achieve something".

Not LaVeyan Satanism in itself on every level but an organization of any Satanic ĒtraditionĒ (I use that word loosely) probably should have more goals rather than just the sharing of ideas.

 Quote:

I'm sensing you desire some sort of "authoritative" formal organization backing it, which is of course nonsensical. Morgan has listed several items that are probably the best you're going to get that comes close to your definition of "research".

I certainly donít need an organization that tells me what is right or wrong in regards to rules and what is acceptable under the name (we already have that). However I do believe that an organized hierarchical group could help the individual Satanist in regards to his or her becoming or self-deification if you will. I think structure can be a very important tool in learning and taking advantage of what other people can teach you. This is what the school system should be based on. If you didnít follow the structured path it offers you would, plain and simple, donít know as much as you do now, Satanist o not.

 Quote:

Since you believe it would be beneficial for Satanists the world over, then you should view this as a golden opportunity for you to be a trailblazer by publishing new work on the topic.

I would love to be! It is however not in my financial leeway at the moment. I could do it a few years back but since then I have changed my goal both once and twice and right now I am actually rebuilding my life from the bottom up. New country, new experiences, new people etc. It is a challenge but a fun one at that. It does however take much of my time and at the moment I value income lower than experience and happiness (which is as it should be in my book). So yeah thatís why I canít really dedicate any good amount of time to it and thus publish good works on it.

Dan_Dread:
 Quote:
Satanism is about sculpting ones own subjective universe. The idea of some imperative to organize as a group and do 'something' seems to me to rub directly against the grain.


I believe an organization could be used as a tool for this like the Temple of Set is for an instance. Its not about the metaphysical reality of Set but about self-development in the higher sense of the word. However I know you reject the idea of a dynamic becoming in favor of a static realization of godhood. So in your view Iím not surprised you reject the idea. If you are already a god then there is nothing more to it really.

 Quote:

How would a Satanic organization benefit me?

Why should I devote any of my precious time or effort to goals that I do not directly own?


1. I donít know. You tell me!
2. Who said it wasnít your own goals?

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#40710 - 07/23/10 07:38 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1751
Loc: New York
There is such an organization of which you speak. Itís called the Modern Church of Satan, or MCOS. They embrace those who feel that the ďeldersĒ can teach them how to be Satanists.
Whatever your beliefs are, they will guide you to be all that you can be.

They even have a system where you can achieve certain grades or levels as you advance.

Itís likely you will never be a Satanist though, but they will encourage and allow you to think that you are.

Otherwise, itís ALL up to you. The only measure of your progress and advancement will be that of how other Satanists whom you may respect treat you; and how you feel about yourself, and the level of comfort you achieve in your own skin from your own efforts.
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#40711 - 07/23/10 07:43 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Asmedious]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
I remember coming across the so called Modern Church of Satan back when it was formed. I think I visited the website a few months back. It's a good joke \:D
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#40714 - 07/23/10 08:11 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1751
Loc: New York
I try not to say anything too negative about the place, since I go slumming there sometimes and I donít believe in shitting in a sandbox that you occasionally visit and play in. Although more often then not I find their fluffy brand of Satanism almost frustrating to the point that I just want to let lose and say some crude things.

While this place feels like home, that place makes me feel like Alice in Wonder Land.

But...before we go off on that tangent, perhaps we'd be wise to not get too off track and start talking about them again. It's been covered.
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#40718 - 07/23/10 08:31 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Asmedious]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
The MCOS eh?

I have heard if you have nothing good to say about something it is best to say nothing at all.


....
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#40719 - 07/23/10 08:33 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
...an organization of any Satanic ĒtraditionĒ (I use that word loosely) probably should have more goals rather than just the sharing of ideas.


There you go again using the word "should". Why the normative statement? Who are you tell me what I, as a member of what we are apparently now calling a Satanic organization, should be doing?

The only time such a thing could ever take place is if all the goals were shared by everyone involved and if, and this is a big IF, all those involved even wanted to be involved. This is not to say that such a thing is impossible, it's just not as simple as you make it out to be.

 Quote:
I certainly donít need an organization that tells me what is right or wrong in regards to rules and what is acceptable under the name (we already have that).


And I certainly don't need anyone telling me what I should be doing as if it were their life. I already have plenty of that.

 Quote:
However I do believe that an organized hierarchical group could help the individual Satanist in regards to his or her becoming or self-deification if you will.


The information is out there waiting to be found. In comes in many different forms and most of them do not advertise themselves as being "Satanic" though, in essence, that is what it truly is or can be in the right - or left - hands. The thing is you have to help yourself. Only you know what you want out of your life and only you can get yourself there. Others may be able to point you a certain direction, assuming they care to, but ultimately you have to make the journey on your own.

Satanism is Individualism, an Individual is capable of doing for themselves without expecting other Individuals to help them.

 Quote:
I would love to be! It is however not in my financial leeway at the moment.


Oh come on now, it doesn't cost money to put thoughts to paper. You obviously have access to a computer and I am sure that computer has some sort of word processing software installed on it. You don't have to publish a book on paper, you can publish it online and if you can find a market for it people might even pay you for it.

 Quote:
believe an organization could be used as a tool for this like the Temple of Set is for an instance.


Then try your hand at joining the ToS. If that doesn't work there are plenty of other brands of theism out there and they are more than happy to welcome newcomers into their flock. There you need not worry about a lack of people "helping" you. These people are more than willing to define your life for you.
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#40722 - 07/23/10 09:00 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Quote:

There you go again using the word "should". Why the normative statement? Who are you tell me what I, as a member of what we are apparently now calling a Satanic organization, should be doing?


What is this thing you say "we are now apparently calling a Satanic organization"? Do you talk about this forum? I never said it was a Satanic organization.

 Quote:
The only time such a thing could ever take place is if all the goals were shared by everyone involved and if, and this is a big IF, all those involved even wanted to be involved. This is not to say that such a thing is impossible, it's just not as simple as you make it out to be.


I never said it was simple. Where did you see me write that it was?

 Quote:
The thing is you have to help yourself. Only you know what you want out of your life and only you can get yourself there. Others may be able to point you a certain direction, assuming they care to, but ultimately you have to make the journey on your own.

Satanism is Individualism, an Individual is capable of doing for themselves without expecting other Individuals to help them.


Yes, only I know what I want with my life. However other institutions are there to help my progress (with reservation that the word institutions may sound more purposefull than I mean it to be). Yes the journey can only be made by me but the path is paved with other people, other organizations other forums etc. You can never expect to even be able to gain knowledge without the use of others if we speak of knowledge as history or theories. The path can only be walked by me but it can only on very rare occations be walked without any companions or without anything at all to rest against from time to time.

 Quote:

Oh come on now, it doesn't cost money to put thoughts to paper. You obviously have access to a computer and I am sure that computer has some sort of word processing software installed on it. You don't have to publish a book on paper, you can publish it online and if you can find a market for it people might even pay you for it.


Well if we're just talking about a couple of pages here and there then sure. I was talking about something more in depth than to just write down my current thoughts on a piece of paper. I was refering to proper academic work. This is not something I currently have the time, finances or the energy to do.

 Quote:

Then try your hand at joining the ToS. If that doesn't work there are plenty of other brands of theism out there and they are more than happy to welcome newcomers into their flock. There you need not worry about a lack of people "helping" you. These people are more than willing to define your life for you.


People make so many assumptions based on emotional reactions towards what I write. And they seem to also skip certain parts of what I write as well.

1. I already said I don't agree with TOS either on their stance on theism (I am not a theist) or their descartianism. It would be a bad fit.

2. I never said an organization should define life for anyone. Please direct me to the place where you think I did.

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#40723 - 07/23/10 09:09 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane


Its not about the metaphysical reality of Set but about self-development in the higher sense of the word.


What 'higher sense of the word'? You are starting to sound rather new-agey.
 Quote:

However I know you reject the idea of a dynamic becoming in favor of a static realization of godhood. So in your view Iím not surprised you reject the idea. If you are already a god then there is nothing more to it really.

Yes, I am a Satanist. I do not need someone to hold my dick and show me the way to 'become' something else. I know what I am, and where I stand. If you need to be told what to be and how to do that, I'm sure you will find droves of willing mentors. Not here, though, but good luck with that.

 Quote:



1. I donít know. You tell me!
2. Who said it wasnít your own goals?


1:Well, it wouldn't. If some sort of hand-holding organization were to spring up (again) representing itself as Satanism, it would be just as ridiculous as previous incarnations. (see my last post)

2:The idea of any group of people mirroring my goals, much less a group of Satanists, is downright silly. I am really starting to wonder why you chose the header of 'Satanism' under which to market these collectivist ideals of yours.
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#40726 - 07/23/10 09:55 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Dan_Dread]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Quote:

What 'higher sense of the word'? You are starting to sound rather new-agey.


I was trying to describe the ToS and their concept of Xeper and Remanifestation as an example of how a self-proclaimed LHP org could have a "higher goal" for its members. It wasn't my personal opinion stated.

On being new agey I can relate to LaVeys "life after death through fulfillment of the ego" depending on you interpretation of it (yes I know it can be interpreted as living on in the brains of those who survive you, as stated earlier in the Redbeard part of TSB, but the chapter itself is kind of new agey just like the section on magic).

I better clarify since many will probably read into this things I didnt say; I am not a Setian and do not believe in their concept of Xeper and remanifestation. I do not agree with the chapter on life after death in TSB either (if taken as literal survival of the ego or self).

 Quote:
Yes, I am a Satanist. I do not need someone to hold my dick and show me the way to 'become' something else. I know what I am, and where I stand. If you need to be told what to be and how to do that, I'm sure you will find droves of willing mentors. Not here, though, but good luck with that.


Its not about being told what to do. When will you understand? Would you also say a university class is about straying away from your path letting others define what you should do? It is a tool to reach a goal not a master/slave relationship.

 Quote:
2:The idea of any group of people mirroring my goals, much less a group of Satanists, is downright silly. I am really starting to wonder why you chose the header of 'Satanism' under which to market these collectivist ideals of yours.


Well it depends on your goals. If its highly personal then sure its silly. But an organisation is never really personal in that way. A Satanic organisation should be, in my view, something you join because your goals are something that can be more easily reached through interaction or use of others material. If not you do not join. If you can use the org as a tool you join. If not you dont. But we've been through that before havent we?


You read my stances on why I use a Satanic lingo and you also said you thought I "had a strong foothold into several more advanced Satanic concepts and ideas" and that "my views seem coherent and certainly fall within the realm of Satanism".
What changed? The fact that I'd like to see Satanists actually produce something in regards to the religion itself? That I donít think its wrong to organize if that is something you can use as a tool for your own development?

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#40728 - 07/23/10 10:18 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
What is this thing you say "we are now apparently calling a Satanic organization"? Do you talk about this forum? I never said it was a Satanic organization.


I never attributed that to you. Anyone can plainly see that others were referring to this site as such. Now, answer the question: who are you to tell me, or anybody else, what we should be doing?

 Quote:
I never said it was simple. Where did you see me write that it was?


Well, it sure seems like you think it would be easy to for such a thing to take place. All you do is tell people what you think they should be doing without providing any reason why.

 Quote:
However other institutions are there to help my progress


Okay, so if these other institutions already exist then why are you complaining? Go seek them out.

 Quote:
You can never expect to even be able to gain knowledge without the use of others if we speak of knowledge as history or theories.


Not entirely correct. While knowledge is built upon by using the ideas of those that came before you it still has a beginning point. That is to stay it starts off with one person having a completely new idea. It may be related to the work of others but is not dependent on it.

 Quote:
The path can only be walked by me but it can only on very rare occations be walked without any companions or without anything at all to rest against from time to time.


Are you sure about that? It may be nice to have people with similar interests that you can converse with but it is no more a necessity than having a significant other is.

 Quote:
Well if we're just talking about a couple of pages here and there then sure. I was talking about something more in depth than to just write down my current thoughts on a piece of paper. I was refering to proper academic work. This is not something I currently have the time, finances or the energy to do.


A "proper academic work" is not a matter of finances. An academic work is something written by someone in academia and usually published in a peer-reviewed journal.

If you want something more in-depth then write something more in-depth. The only thing stopping you is yourself; anything else is just a lame ass excuse. If you want something done, don't expect anyone else to do it for you. For if it is truly that important you should have no problem taking the initiative.

 Quote:
People make so many assumptions based on emotional reactions towards what I write. And they seem to also skip certain parts of what I write as well.


I made no assumptions, had no emotional reactions nor did I skip anything.

 Quote:
1. I already said I don't agree with TOS either on their stance on theism (I am not a theist) or their descartianism. It would be a bad fit.


I guess you are SOL then. ;\)

 Quote:
I never said an organization should define life for anyone. Please direct me to the place where you think I did.


You seem unable to live without having something, or someone to cling onto and "show you the way". That is what your posts have said so far.
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#40729 - 07/23/10 10:19 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
At this point I'm almost convinced that you're just pissed that there's no more books to read on Satanism. I'll continue to play along to see if you hang yourself.

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane

Its not about being told what to do. When will you understand? Would you also say a university class is about straying away from your path letting others define what you should do? It is a tool to reach a goal not a master/slave relationship.


University classes are (mostly) for sharing concrete objective knowledge, not highly subjective experiences. That's why there's no classes on "How to be a Man" or "What it feels like to give birth to a child" - those are things that have to be experienced to understand them. I did say "mostly", though, so ...

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane

That I donít think its wrong to organize if that is something you can use as a tool for your own development?


If you're still talking about "everything Satan", then I suggest you take this topic up with your uni's comparative religious studies department.

If you expect this school would be of interest to this crowd, perhaps you could give us a concrete example of how such an organization would be useful to an "aspiring Laveyan Satanist".
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