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#40731 - 07/23/10 11:13 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Autodidact]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Directed at TheInsane,

Paraphrased from you, basically you want a school or an organization to help the "next generation" of Satanists or current generation of Satanist to understand how to be a Satanist or learn more about Satanism. By using a system of grades, or well thought out researched essays and articles.

That is what we do here already. This site just doesn't charge a membership or scholastic fee. I think you are missing the forest for the trees.

We have grades that are stated, as well as people in higher "grades" who will help others and give answers clearly yet in a non-spoon feeding way.

From the FAQ: "Everyone has a title within the forum. You will notice the title below the Display Name in each post. Some titles are automatically assigned based on the number of posts a user has made, and some titles are assigned by the forum owner to denote official representatives of the company or other VIPs in the forums.

0 lurker
5 stranger
50 pledge
100 member
600 active member
1200 veteran member
1600 senior member
2500 stalker"


Add in familiars, moderators, and administrators. They all fall into place as a sense of hierarchy, of recognized knowledge and understanding. Plus since "we" in general reject the current ass kissing of the CoS, this site is more likely to answer questions and share knowledge that is not so political correct.

Oh, also the MCOS was mentioned because they think all Satanists are equal and its all for the common happy hand holding hippy common good. Whereas "most" people here are not fond of anything that is anti-elitist, and for the "common" good.

I think part of your beliefs may be cultural. I think Ameria and her husband Wolf had similar beliefs and they were from Sweden too.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#40732 - 07/23/10 11:18 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane

I was trying to describe the ToS and their concept of Xeper and Remanifestation as an example of how a self-proclaimed LHP org could have a "higher goal" for its members. It wasn't my personal opinion stated.

The temple of set has nothing to do with Satanism. I don't know why you keep bringing them up. You are comparing apples to oranges.
 Quote:



Its not about being told what to do. When will you understand? Would you also say a university class is about straying away from your path letting others define what you should do? It is a tool to reach a goal not a master/slave relationship.

You have been doing some serious backpedaling. You first used to word 'movement', and when shown why that was untenable, tried to redefine movement as organization, and now you are talking as if I am arguing against universities or education. The term strawman jumps to mind, as does non sequiter. I am honestly beginning to question your intellectual honesty. You keep moving your goal posts.

On another note, comparing a potential Satanic org to a university seems rather absurd. Are Satanists to be given tenure and give full time classes to teach something that can't be taught anyway? Why would I want to hold someones hand and guide them?

Seriously, if you have any sort of substance to offer in favour of this 'satanic movement', any reason to consider this seriously other than 'you think that's what we should be doing', please get around to it. It seems you are upset because it doesn't exist but yet you are unwilling or unable to do anything about it yourself. This is really starting to come off as a lot of whining.
 Quote:

Well it depends on your goals. If its highly personal then sure its silly. But an organisation is never really personal in that way. A Satanic organisation should be, in my view, something you join because your goals are something that can be more easily reached through interaction or use of others material. If not you do not join. If you can use the org as a tool you join. If not you dont. But we've been through that before havent we?

Yes we have, when I pointed out we have that right here at the 600 club.
 Quote:

You read my stances on why I use a Satanic lingo and you also said you thought I "had a strong foothold into several more advanced Satanic concepts and ideas" and that "my views seem coherent and certainly fall within the realm of Satanism".
What changed? The fact that I'd like to see Satanists actually produce something in regards to the religion itself? That I don’t think its wrong to organize if that is something you can use as a tool for your own development?

Well, nothing changed. It is evident you have given a lot of thought to things (maybe not this whole Satanic movement idea, but other things), and come to conclusions, some congruent with Satanism as I see it, based on that introspection. Good for you.

You also express many ideas and opinions that seem to me to be completely at odds with Satanism at it's core.


ps - Your post almost made my spell checker explode. Please bring up your game if it isn't too much trouble.
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#40735 - 07/24/10 02:44 AM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
I was trying to describe the ToS and their concept of Xeper and Remanifestation as an example of how a self-proclaimed LHP org could have a "higher goal" for its members. It wasn't my personal opinion stated.

The temple of set has nothing to do with Satanism. I don't know why you keep bringing them up. You are comparing apples to oranges.

“A VISION OF LUCIFER”
- by Michael A. Aquino VI°
Scroll of Set, July 1995

In Scroll #XXI-1 I brought up the question of the Temple of Set’s relationship to “Satan/ Satanism”, past/present/future, and invited Setians to send me their opinions. Possibly a consensus would emerge around the time of the Set-XVI Conclave (at this writing about two months away).

To briefly re-summarize the issue:

On one hand we have the Temple of Set’s own 20-year tradition of considering itself not only the legitimate successor to the 1966-75 authentic Church of Satan, but also the sponsor of much magical research clearly inspired by the most sublime and ecstatic visions of the Judæo-Christian ArchDæmon. After the fashion of history’s great Satanist artists, poets, and writers - Milton, Baudelaire, Shaw, Twain, C.A. Smith, et al. - the Temple of Set has carried this flag forward into a new era of appreciation and creativity. It is a history of attainment and accomplishment of which we can be rightfully proud.

On the other hand profane society continues to dissolve back into religious barbarism, with primitive, fundamentalist “cartoon Christianity” becoming both more prevalent and more militant all the time - at least in the United States and, if we read the signals from other countries accurately, in many of them as well. Such brutish Christianity knows nothing and cares nothing about any vision or interpretation of Satan except as something “evil” to be instantly hated and to be suppressed and destroyed in any way possible. Whether we like it or not/whether it is “fair” or not, such barbarism and its propaganda systems vastly outweigh any positive definition we may have advocated for “Satan” or “Satanism” since 1966.

Fundamentalist Christianity [or Islam] sees the universe in a simple juxtaposition of “good” (God) and “evil” (Satan). The point here is that such people cannot consider a “Satan” to be anything but “evil”, because he is by definition opposed or contrasted to what is “good”. Trying to argue them into considering that Satan might have some good, creative, positive points is thus a waste of time.

To fundamentalists, moreover, anything not “of God” is “of the Devil”. The farther away from their Bible-based understanding of God/Jesus it seems to be, the worse it is - but even the milder “transgressions” are on the “bad” side of the fence. Thus the new generation of fundamentalists considers Mormons, Scientologists, Hare Krishnas, Masons, Jews, Wiccans, Rosicrucians, Thelemites, etc. all just as “Satanic” as avowed Satanists.

Nor is avowed-Satanism anything resembling a unified camp in the 1990s. From 1966 to 1975 there was only the Church of Satan. There were a few minor, incidental competitors, such as the Process, but none of them came anywhere close to the Church as a standard-bearer.

From 1975 to ca. 1990 “Satan”-based Satanism did not exist. Anton LaVey’s continuing operation had shrunk to a very-infrequently-appearing Cloven Hoof for a small circle of sycophants. The Temple of Set treated “Satanism” largely as a more primitive approximation of what had since become the Setian philosophy, and used Satanic symbolism only incidentally and occasionally for its artistic and dramatic value.

The late 1980s brought the international “Satanic scare”, which, ironically, resulted in the resurgence of a kind of “fundamentalist Satanism” among the more rebellious and antisocial youth elements. LaVey’s controllers have been able to exploit this wave commercially to some extent, but the anarchistic nature of this neo-movement clearly stops short of acknowledging him anything like the “Black Pope” he was in the 66-75 Age of Satan. He has become pre-mortem, like Aleister Crowley post-mortem, a kind of plaything for pop-occultists to brandish as they wish, in support of whatever emotional whim may flatter or entertain them.

Where the Temple of Set is concerned, the bottom line is that we have no absolute control over the definition or use of “Satan” or “Satanism” either in conventional Judæo-Christian society or in the “occult subculture”. Whatever relative influence we have is almost negligible in the J/C world and increasingly compartmentalized in the OS due to our aristocratic insistence on “High Satanism” as the only authentic Satanism. Today’s pop-occult kids and LaVey-fan clubbers consider the Temple irritatingly stuffy in this regard. They want their “Satanism” to be a simple, instantly-gratifying no-brainer, requiring nothing beyond a flip through the Satanic Bible and an “I wannit!” yell. Any attempt to teach them is pointless; they became “Satanists” precisely because they have no self-discipline for the effort of learning.

After listening to comments from many of you, and pondering the matter further myself, I conclude that there is unfortunately going to be no button-push solution for this situation. Profane fundamentalism will continue to consider the Temple of Set “Satanic” no matter what we say, or how painstakingly we attempt to explain ourselves in a non-J/C frame of reference. The social forces that will prevent such fundamentalism from translating its hatred into active persecution are much larger than anything over which we have direct control: influences like the Jewish lobby, the ACLU, and whatever laws remain in support of the 1st and 14th Amendments to the Constitution. Let us understand that we are riding the coattails of such influences rather than commanding them; far from resenting this, we should appreciate our fortune in being in this position.

How this social contest will be resolved in the long term I cannot tell at this time. These are very large-scale, slow-moving socio/political forces. The wise course for the Temple of Set is to “keep a clear eye” and adjust itself to changing conditions much as a surfer rides a wave, wasting as little of our energy as possible on King Canute-style “gestures of defiance” which ultimately have no significant impact on the megatrends in question. We are going to have to be something of a “jiujitsu religion”, not a “boxer in the ring”, in this regard.

 Originally Posted By: M.A.A., The Dark Side
“Ben, would you tell me more about the Jedi?” said Luke Skywalker, fingering the lightsaber grip at his side. “Who are they? What do they do? And how can I become one?”

The old man, who had been dozing in his seat across from Luke, blinked and sat up. “The - Jedi,” he said. “They are gone now. Massacred by the Republic in its decadence and paranoia ... No, that’s not entirely fair; they also brought it on themselves by their refusal to see the reality of their situation. Only I remain, I fear. And, of course, Darth Vader.”

“Who is this Darth Vader you keep talking about?” asked Luke.

“You’ll know soon enough,” said Kenobi drily, “but one thing at a time. You’re curious about the Jedi. Well. There are three types of knowledge, Luke. First there is knowledge acquired through experience, as in the case of the craftsman. Secondly there is knowledge acquired through study, as in the case of the scholar. Finally there is knowledge acquired through Initiation, and this is the special province of the Jedi Order.

“Initiation does not teach you to know or do anything in particular. It is rather a process of awakening certain latent sensitivities within rare individuals. These sensitivities enable the Jedi to see situations and events around him with a clarity and objectivity unknown to non-Jedis. Thus he is able to impress his Will upon situations in a manner that is as effective as it is subtle. This Jedi characteristic, mysterious as it is to others, has resulted in our being suspect to those in positions of social power - and objects of fear to those of lesser intelligence. You are a little afraid of me yourself, are you not?”

Luke grinned and nodded.

“Good,” said Kenobi. “I would hate to think I am losing my touch. Now the knowledge of the Jedi requires two factors. The Initiation process is one factor; it is the deliberate sensitizing of the individual to the abilities that lie within his - or her - consciousness. This Initiation may be encouraged and to some extent guided by others, but it is essentially a personal, private experience. At the Citadel of the Jedi we spoke not of ‘training’ Jedi, but rather of Recognizing their levels of Initiation.”

“What’s the other factor?” said Luke.

“The other factor,” answered Kenobi, “is the raw material. Not everyone can respond to Initiation, or respond to it at comparable levels. Nor is the capacity for Initiation tied to the ability to acquire knowledge of the other two kinds, though of course a Jedi with such knowledge is all the more effective. In certain individuals - beings of all races and species throughout the galaxy - there is ... the ‘Force’, as we generally call it. It is the raw material that, when refined through Initiation, enables the Jedi to effect change in accordance with his Will.”

“What sort of change?” said Luke. “And why should a Jedi want to change anything?”

“The Jedi’s commitment is to change as something desirable in itself,” answered Kenobi, “but of course there are value judgments involved. There is nothing to be gained by influencing a peaceful, progressive society to disintegrate into war, for example. But a peaceful society which fails to progress may benefit in the long run from a destabilizing shock. The art of the Jedi lies in the ability to estimate when and if a change in the existing situation will stimulate positive evolution.

“As for how: The answer is that the most wide-reaching changes may be set in motion through a single, isolated decision or action. At its height the Jedi Order numbered in the thousands, but such a number was miniscule against the entire population of the Republic. The strength of the Jedi lay in their ability to set processes in motion, not necessarily to force those same processes to conclusion.” ...

And what about the pop-occult “Satanists” and the LaVey-revivalists?

After observing them for some time, including with the aid of computer Internet newsgroups and echoes, I cannot squeeze them into a homogenous stereotype. Some are spoiled brats with no more understanding or appreciation of Satanism than another ring through their lip or a tattoo on their ass. Others, as LaVey, are mere commercial profiteers selling snake-oil to suckers. Still others, like Wagner’s Parsifal, are sincere seekers after something which as yet they cannot define, flailing around in the underbrush of philosophical and metaphysical jungles. These may or may not find their way to the Grail Castle of the Temple of Set; if they do, they may or may not like what they find there. The sensible thing is simply to allow the Temple to be “findable”, and not to worry overmuch about the flailers otherwise. Ultimately their quests are their own to pursue, and eventually they will find whatever is within their competence to seem satisfying to them.

Many years ago I became seriously interested in Satan after reading Milton’s Paradise Lost. What a magnificent, tragic being Lucifer/Satan was! He had reached out against impossible odds, had endured unimaginable torment, not for any lesser goals but simply, purely, to affirm his independent will and existence. The ineffable beauty and singularity of this vision enthralled me as it did Milton himself, who could not help making Satan the hero of his epic. As Shaw, “I promised him my soul, and swore an oath that I would stand up for him in this world and stand by him in the next.” To me “Satanism” could be nothing less than an active affirmation of this oath in its most dignified and sublime sense. That is how I saw the potential and future of the Church of Satan - and, for that matter, the old Anton LaVey at his greatest.

What the North Solstice X Working did was not to change this oath and this vision, but to lift them clean out of whatever conceptual limitations Judæo-Christian language and imagery had placed upon them. The Bright Light went from being diffused to clear, the Thought from vague to coherent.

Nevertheless seeing with two eyes (Setian) is just as taboo in the Country of the Blind as is seeing with one eye (Satanist). It is the act of sight per se that they cannot understand nor accept, hence must destroy to ensure that everyone is “sane” and “normal”. The Clear Eye of the Setian must be exercised carefully and cautiously; and such wisdom as it imparts must be “downphrased” into simpler terms that the Blind can understand and accept.

“Satan” and “Satanism” will continue to be subjective terms, which anyone may use in an almost limitless kaleidoscope of meanings. The wise Setian will not seek to control these meanings for others, but rather to understand them personally in a way that unlocks their secrets and ennobles the soul “in this world and in the next”.

 Originally Posted By: Clark Ashton Smith, "A Vision of Lucifer"
And straight I knew him for the mystic one
That is the brother, born of human dream,
Of man rebellious at an unknown rod;
The mind’s ideal, and the spirit’s sun;
A column of clear flame, in lands extreme,
Set opposite the darkness that is God.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#40738 - 07/24/10 03:13 AM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Dan_Dread]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
The temple of set has nothing to do with Satanism. I don't know why you keep bringing them up. You are comparing apples to oranges.


I would say it's more like comparing apples to pears.

The Temple of Set was a schism from the Church of Satan; they are obviously related; although their philosophies differ, the CoS influences are obvious.
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«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#40740 - 07/24/10 03:28 AM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: The Zebu]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Very different things can share a common ancestry. Satanism as it is today bears very little resemblance to Setianism as it is today.
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#40756 - 07/24/10 02:33 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Very different things can share a common ancestry. Satanism as it is today bears very little resemblance to Setianism as it is today.

I would agree that the Setian philosophy [I hate, loathe, despise, in fact do not like the term "Setianism"] is substantially different from Satanism (by which I still mean that of the 1966-75 Church of Satan). But essentially in an evolutionary sense, in that the Temple took several doors that the Church had cracked open and flung them wide - not the least of these being the very conceptual constraints of Judæo/Christian imagery.

As I have said before: If Anton had not gotten cold feet in 1975, I think the Church would have continued to evolve into something very much like the Temple of Set, because that was clearly the way it was already/nationally headed in the early '70s. Then we were not thinking about discarding Satan or Satanic imagery, but rather of wrenching these free from J/C control - asserting them increasingly and inexorably as a positive, independent metaphysical philosophy in their own right.

One of the reasons I became interested in the 600C is that I see in its general level of sophistication a sort of ghost of what the Church might be like today if 1975 hadn't happened - with the peculiar exception, of course, of the rampant/defensive Atheism here. Once you tear this paper bag from your heads, true Satanism could reawaken most spectacularly.

The Temple of Set would have nothing whatever to fear from that. We live in, as Obi-wan would say, a much larger universe. That is exhilarating and deifying, of course, but it is also so complex as to be intimidating and exhausting. Satanism functions wholly within "this universe", which makes it that much easier to comprehend and practically apply.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#40757 - 07/24/10 02:52 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Then we were not thinking about discarding Satan or Satanic imagery, but rather of wrenching these free from J/C control - asserting them increasingly and inexorably as a positive, independent metaphysical philosophy in their own right.


What puzzles me about this is: "Why Set?" If people want to remove the J/C coloring of Satanism, which is a close to impossible task, why not go back to their own culture? In Europe much of what became the devil has been affected by the native mythologies of European tribes. Resemblances between the Levi Baphomet and the Celtic Cernunnos are remarkable. Those monotheists had a habit of declaring all that wasn't their god a demon or devil and I personally think there is more of "us" in the devil then there was of the J/C.

Unless I am an Egyptian, I find it weird to try to remove a religious construct I despise and replace it with another that is as alien to me as the first was.

D.

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#40758 - 07/24/10 03:08 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Mah,

I realize the two have similarities as well as differences, but in the context of this conversation the differences preclude making the sorts of comparisons were being made by the poster I was responding to. I really couldn't care less about the ToS or setianism.

 Originally Posted By: MAA

As I have said before: If Anton had not gotten cold feet in 1975, I think the Church would have continued to evolve into something very much like the Temple of Set, because that was clearly the way it was already/nationally headed in the early '70s. Then we were not thinking about discarding Satan or Satanic imagery, but rather of wrenching these free from J/C control - asserting them increasingly and inexorably as a positive, independent metaphysical philosophy in their own right.

That may very well be the case. However, in that theoretical universe, people like me would still be doing exactly what we are doing. The Satanic Bible would still have been written as it is, and those called 'Satanists' would still see themselves in it. Those like me, incapable of 'just believing' would still have no use for faith based belief systems or organizations. The adversary wouldn't be phased.

 Quote:

One of the reasons I became interested in the 600C is that I see in its general level of sophistication a sort of ghost of what the Church might be like today if 1975 hadn't happened - with the peculiar exception, of course, of the rampant/defensive Atheism here. Once you tear this paper bag from your heads, true Satanism could reawaken most spectacularly.

There is no need to 'defend' the default logical position. Since there has never been constructed a sound argument for the existence of deities that can't be completely demolished with an ounce of reason, theism is left as the very self deceit that Anton LaVey warned about.

With that said, there is no need for superstition to invoke the very real and relevant memetics and psychology of the opposer and the adversary. All of the things offered by the structure and form of the philosophy and religion of Satanism are even more relevant in a real world materialistic context than they are in a metaphysical one. Once you start invoking faith based concepts you are just one of the 'other guys', no different from any other make believe religion. Satanism is relevant because it is opposed to ALL of it, not just another flavour of the same thing. All these years and you still don't get that.

I think Satanism is doing just fine without superstitious mumbo jumbo clouding the waters.
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#40760 - 07/24/10 05:53 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

As I have said before: If Anton had not gotten cold feet in 1975, I think the Church would have continued to evolve into something very much like the Temple of Set, because that was clearly the way it was already/nationally headed in the early '70s.


Why do you think he got cold feet?

I often wonder why he seemed to change direction and to start selling priesthoods.

In your estimation, what was the catalyst for this?
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Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#40761 - 07/24/10 06:16 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

One of the reasons I became interested in the 600C is that I see in its general level of sophistication a sort of ghost of what the Church might be like today if 1975 hadn't happened - with the peculiar exception, of course, of the rampant/defensive Atheism here. Once you tear this paper bag from your heads, true Satanism could reawaken most spectacularly.


This statement confuses me.

I've lurked here long enough to know that ToS is theistic (in the commonly defined way of acknowledging and/or worshiping a stereotypically defined deity), and I also know that you know that the position of many here is atheistic (opposite the above).

Your statement above is almost equivalent to saying, "Yeah, if those Catholics could get rid of that silly God, they could really become true Catholics."

Am I just overanalyzing?
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#40762 - 07/24/10 06:19 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Autodidact]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Auto...None of us are 'true' Satanists because we don't worship the christian devil. I'm sure if you read his ebook you will learn all about what 'real' Satanism is, and see that this site is just full of atheists that use Satan as a mascot because Atheism is so boring. Also, the world ended in 1975.

I thought everyone knew this!
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#40763 - 07/24/10 06:21 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Fnord]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
AGAIN, before you say he actually started selling priesthoods, show me ONE person who received their priesthood in this way. This was during the time I rose through the ranks of the Church of Satan and I was never solicited, nor was such and option even suggested, and I know of no one else who obtained their priesthood in this way either.

Has anyone ever considered that LaVey might have been passing out the "silver headed cane" to those within the group who might be susceptible to such an idea. and thereby forcing them to show their true colors? I'm not saying that that's what happened... just that since the proof of wholesale selling of priesthoods is as elusive as the proof of wholesale child molestations and satanic murders, one might well consider there might have been a manipulation or a project at hand. I'm sure that even Dr. Aquino will agree that smoke does not ALWAYS equal fire.

(For those who are unfamiliar with the concept of the silver headed cane, I need to clarify for it to make sense. In the carnival there were often games of chance going on that were under the table and sometimes suspicious. The Carny Boss would bestow upon those who might cause trouble some gaudy object like a cane with a big silver head, allowing them special privileges on the midway, such as free cotton candy or free rides, but also so the carnies plying their trade might see him coming and hide their illegal activities. LaVey also did this for a while with a special title on some Church of Satan ID cards, given to troublemakers within the organization... the title was "CREEP" in Enochian. **I'm no expert in Enochian, but I seem to remember I was told it was ECONEI... check your cards. You may be a lucky winner.**)

The idea of the Church of Satan turning into something like The Temple of Set has no foundation in fact, and can only be speculated upon. LaVey's writings and his personal conversations with me NEVER indicated he had any such inclination or ideations for the Church of Satan.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#40764 - 07/24/10 07:45 PM Set and the North Solstice X Working [Re: Diavolo]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
What puzzles me about this is: "Why Set?"

The short answer is that you'd have to ask him, since his reappearance in the North Solstice X Working was completely unexpected by me, nor had Set been an especial or unusual topic of correspondence or conversation in the Church at that time.

My own conclusion is discussed in my Temple of Set ebook: that the original neter from whom all "Satanic" caricatures, copies, and reflections derived simply chose to reassert himself at that time because of the circumstances discussed in the Book of Coming Forth by Night itself. As it happens, there were a great many OU and SU conjunctions and correspondences which came together on the North Solstice of 1975 CE, but the extent to which any or all of these may have been an actual influence is only speculation.

Bear in mind too that the Book of coming Forth by Night was a Working Record as understood by my consciousness, which was in a state of surprise and stress. Had Set elected a different mode of communication, at a different time/place, to a different audience, the result might have been different. But he chose this time, place, audience, and consequence.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#40765 - 07/24/10 08:25 PM Re: Set and the North Solstice X Working [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
The short answer is that you'd have to ask him,


Duh! Why didn't I think of that \:\) You just bring up "1975" and "my ebook" every chance you get don't you Aquino?

I have an honest question I'd like to ask you:

Are Set and satan the same guys?

Because Grand Magister Blackwood has regular telepathic coversations with Satan, and you have special coversations with Set.

Also I have another question:

Is Set universal?

What I mean is can a Chinese guy in China see and experience Set too? And if he could, would Set be Egyptian or a Chinese spirit entity? And would his name be "Set" to the Chinese guy?

How do you know that in 1975 one day you may have had an idea of starting your own "Church of Satan" type organization because you were inspired by LaVey's success. So you first hastely picked some Egyptian Devil... wrote some goofy book where Set comes to talk to you in the middle of the night to give you a mandate... re-interpreted Satanism via your new found Temple of Set so that you were the leader... etc.

You say today that Setianism and Satanism are two very different things - which may be true - but there is written record [mostly in exchanges between you and "some other person"] where back in the days you said things like 'only you and the Temple of Set represented genuine Satanism because Set had given you a mandate, etc, etc.'

Do you still believe that your invention - Setianism - represents the only valid infernally mandated Satanism? Or have you grown out of this "Blackwood" mentality today?


Edited by Caladrius (07/24/10 08:26 PM)
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.:.gone fishing.:.

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#40766 - 07/24/10 09:04 PM The 1975 Degree/Priesthood Selling Decision [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
AGAIN, before you say he actually started selling priesthoods, show me ONE person who received their priesthood in this way.

Anton announced his policy of selling all the degrees in both private correspondence to me and his lead article for the May/June 1975 Cloven Hoof, as you may read in full text for yourself in my Church of Satan, Chapter #35.

As far as I know, none of the degrees had been sold prior to this announcement. [Had they been, the crisis would have come at that time, obviously.]

What Anton did with the degrees subsequent to our mass departure, I have no way of knowing. The exposure of this in the Satanic community at the time would certainly have impaired any actual attempts to sell the degrees, and I hardly think that the LaVeys would have made a conspicuous show of doing what had just wrecked their organization and his reputation.

 Quote:
This was during the time I rose through the ranks of the Church of Satan and I was never solicited, nor was such and option even suggested, and I know of no one else who obtained their priesthood in this way either.

I don't know your full name, but I presume you were not a member of the Church in June 1975 or you wouldn't need to ask me any of these questions. As for post-1975 "priesthoods" generally, I have yet to hear of a single one who functioned as such credibly or commendably, undergoing any of the training, evaluation, or formal oath/ordination procedures that were required pre-75.

 Quote:
Has anyone ever considered that LaVey might have been passing out the "silver headed cane" to those within the group who might be susceptible to such an idea. and thereby forcing them to show their true colors? I'm not saying that that's what happened... just that since the proof of wholesale selling of priesthoods is as elusive ...

Sorry, Jake, the proof of the policy is right there in Anton's own writing, as cited above. That we all resigned before he could try implementing it does not change that, and as noted above he would have been completely nuts to try selling the degrees after it had been exposed.

 Quote:
The idea of the Church of Satan turning into something like The Temple of Set has no foundation in fact, and can only be speculated upon. LaVey's writings and his personal conversations with me NEVER indicated he had any such inclination or ideations for the Church of Satan.

Once again I'll refer you to the Church as it existed, developed, and is documented in my Church of Satan history. This was of course all before your time at 6114, and I doubt that Anton gave you his bound copy and said, "Here, read up on our pre-75 history."!

I am of course not suggesting that the Church was headed for anything resembling a formal metamorphosis into a Temple of Set [though who knows what might have occurred on the North Solstice X had Anton still been upholding his High Priesthood?] What I have said is that the Church was continually and rapidly outgrowing its original, simplistic imagery, ideology, and socio/theological constraints. It was moving further and further away from the original Friday night Halloween party profile towards a serious, positive philosophy in its own right. And Anton was completely involved in and supportive of this. [When a 16mm reel print of the long-vanished Satanis surfaced at "Movies Unlimited" around 73 or so, he requested that it not be publicized in the Hoof because of its hokey atmosphere, commenting to me, "I don't give interviews in red T-shirts anymore!"]

As I have said, I rather think that a "normally"-evolving Church might have an intellectual atmosphere not unlike that of the 600C, but with continued, open, and prideful acknowledgment of Satan and the Powers of Darkness rather than this bizarre "satanatheism". There would be an even more highly-developed degree system, respectable and competent Grottos worldwide, and Internet resources (archives, forums, national/regional/local functions) much like those of today's Temple.

Had the Church continued thus, I might add, the "Satanic Panic" of the 1980s would have been far easier to discredit, because "official Satanism" itself would have been there to speak out. Instead the Temple of Set had to do the job, and neither we nor the SP-salesmen considered this "on-center", as it were. They kept claiming they were alarming about "real Satanists", not us; and we kept defending a "good Satanism" that hadn't actually existed anywhere since 1975. A jackass situation.
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Michael A. Aquino

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