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#29750 - 09/18/09 01:30 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Final Conflict Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 47
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
The question of initiatory degree Recognition has always been of particular interest to the Temple since its founding, in part because it was Anton's corruption of the Church's system that brought it down.


Now, my understanding has always been that Dr. LaVey was always very adamantly opposed to the "initiatory degree" system in the style of the Golden Dawn and OTO, and instead intended for the Church of Satan's degree system to be based primarily around real world accomplishments of its members and their ability to live and thrive according to the Satanic ethos.

There is nothing to suggest, whether in Dr. LaVey's own spoken words or in his writings, or from what others (besides yourself) have shared about their experiences in the early years of the Church, that Dr. LaVey intended the Church of Satan to be some sort of occult mystery school along the lines of the OTO.

While the work and philosophy of Aleister Crowley had some influence on Dr. LaVey (though I believe writers tend to overstate the level of this influence), he had nothing but contempt for Crowley, the Golden Dawn, and other "white light" magicians and initiatory schools.

Everything you've shared about the Temple of Set and how it operates (and I've been reading more of your ToS book) suggests that it is worlds apart from the Church of Satan of 1966-1975.

Thus, I find it difficult to accept your argument that the Doctor somehow "corrupted" the Church's system. When did he ever view this system as something "sacred" that could possibly be corrupted?

I have no doubt that in your mind everything about the Church was indeed sacred, but why is it difficult for you to accept that the Doctor did not share your viewpoint? The Church of Satan, from the very beginning, was diametrically opposed to any "white light" belief including the idea that anything can somehow be "sacred."

Furthermore, the essay you enclose in your book to support your allegation that the Doctor had intended to "sell" Church degrees does not support that notion at all. I can see how you interpreted it that way, but nevertheless it doesn't state anything along those lines since there is no stated guarantee that one would be automatically elevated to a higher degree if they contribute materially to the Church.

I can't copy and paste the essay (sent to you by Diane) from the PDF file, but if you could post it here (just Dr. LaVey's essay, please - not your responses) for others to look at, perhaps we could get some other opinions and see what others think.

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#29751 - 09/18/09 01:31 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
I've seen some of ALV's oils, I wonder if Zeena sold them all. Some were dark, some were darker, but I have no reference as being a qualified art-critic, so I'll just say I thought they were suitably disturbing, in an innocuous sort of way.
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#29752 - 09/18/09 01:48 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: GillesdeRais]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2521
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: GillesdeRais
I've seen some of ALV's oils, I wonder if Zeena sold them all. Some were dark, some were darker, but I have no reference as being a qualified art-critic, so I'll just say I thought they were suitably disturbing, in an innocuous sort of way.

I don't think Zeena got any of them; remember she hadn't been back to 6114 since 1990. Karla would probably know what happened to them; it would be great if she managed to keep & preserve them all.
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#29754 - 09/18/09 01:57 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
The 6114 photos in COS were just me and my Kodak Brownie taking a quick run through the house with A&D's permission, to generate a set of color slides to send around to the Grottos (most of whose members had never seen the place). I wish now that I had photographed every inch of it to make publicly available for history. Perhaps someone else has; one can hope.


Most of the photos I took were about the same as yours. I did get a few candid shots of Dr. LaVey with one of the other admin people, one with a Baphomet cake someone had made for Walpurgisnacht (we we kinda homey that night), some of him on the keyboards, etc. I had always wanted to take more, but "there was always time." What a sad phrase.

From what I understand he was the person who painted the huge one of Tchort coming out of the volcano... I'm not sure about the "Boschian" paintings surrounding the door to my office area. There was one large grey-scale one next to the oven that was signed Hugo Zorilla that he did, and that always was one of my favorites.

Rick may know what happened to the paintings, as he was there for the wrap up of the Black House after Dr. LaVey died.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#29755 - 09/18/09 01:59 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Jake999]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
Do you have a photo of the cake? I've never seen one of it's like, but would be willing to appreciate it if you had a shot and could post it.

Edited by GillesdeRais (09/18/09 01:59 AM)
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Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#29756 - 09/18/09 02:03 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: GillesdeRais]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I'll have to go through my negatives and see if I can find it. If I can, I'll either load it of send it to you via email. Don't want to clog up the thread with things that aren't of general interest or germane to the subject at hand.
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#30774 - 10/25/09 05:00 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
EvilDjinn Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 31
This thread doesn't seem too far into it's grave so I'll reply. As much as I hate to break up this conversation, I have something a little more on the original topic.

First off, Dr. Aquino do you have any thoughts in particular about the Temple of the Vampire? If you've already stated them in the thread, then I apologize for missing them. But I wondered.

From what I've gathered of Setian philosophy, there is at least some parallel. I recall from your Church of Satan document that you and Dr. LaVey did "experiments" concerning existence after death. That the chapter in the Satanic Bible concerning that topic was more than just living on in memories, but actually having some kind of existence or presence beyond physical death. This point seemed an important one in distinguishing Setian philosophy from Satanic.

Of course this is what the Vampires are all about.

I've read their publicly available literature and find them interesting to say the least. While some of their claims seem outrageous, there seems to be something real underneath. In particular their book Revelations, which makes references to the later Vampire Bibles. There's a section dedicated to interpreting the Book of Dreaming from Dayside and Twilight perspectives (the initial Vampire Bible offers only Nightside commentary). This was interesting to read because it addressed the section on a wider level. You get the information then about the "astral world", but then you also get information about how a particular statement applies on a practical, day-to-day basis.

Though the Church of Satan and Vampire Temple seem closely linked, I don't get the sense that they are in some shadowy way the same thing. The only evidence I have of this (aside from certain philosophical differences) is Peter H. Gilmore's public enjoyment of The Psychic Vampire Codex. Why promote a book written by "competitors"?

I still have doubts over the Temple of the Vampire, but I still think they're interesting and might know things worth knowing.



Edited by EvilDjinn (10/25/09 05:13 PM)

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#30789 - 10/25/09 10:11 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: EvilDjinn]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
The ToV and the CoS are not the same thing, but nor are they competitors. Gilmore is a close fried of the founder, and I can imagine that the two symbioticly benefit each other with "free advertising", so to speak. (Many high ranking ToV members are also high ranking CoS members, if you get the drift) I'm pretty sure that the ToV would not be in the place it's in today were it not for being able to promote itself through the CoS.

My principle issue with the ToV is that they are a blatant pyramid scam organization. Although I can't exactly bring myself to sympathize with the hordes of lonely goth LARPers that pay up the ass for cheap amulets and fancy-sounding titles, I wouldn't want to have my name on it, let alone associate it with me or my social circle in any way. In the end, they simply come off as being a rather silly bunch.
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#38269 - 05/04/10 02:48 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Prometheus9]
americanfront Offline
lurker


Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 2
 Originally Posted By: Prometheus9
 Originally Posted By: Final Conflict
[
That's not very nice now, is it? But seriously, answer the question: why would you possibly consider Feral House to be a "skinhead" publisher? Perhaps you are the one with such lurid fantasies? Eh? ;\)


A brief look at Feral House's early years and the cadre of folks who were involved does a pretty good job putting a certain amount of credibility, if not subtlety, to the description. Adam was targeting a cross-section of an audience that definitely included Skinheads of all kinds, from Cro-Mags fans to the likes of Bob Heick and the American Front. A quick flip through Art That Kills gives a pretty good sense of who the creative end of things were and a bit of a sense of the audience as well. It was a more diverse scene than simply "skinhead" but for the time I can see how Dr. Aqunio would lump that diversity together.

Hell, ever look at who the participants were for the 8/8/88 rally, probably the most "Feral House" event done at the time?

Now since then Adam has certainly gone in a different direction with his own interests and the kind of things that Feral house puts out.

Edited to Add: I spent a lot of time in the early 90s involved with the NY Hard Core Scene. If you think Skinheads=Nazis you do more damage to the concept that you can possibly imagine. Ever Wikipedia's article on the topic does a fine job of displaying the broadness of the category

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead


the cro-mags are far from nazi.

8-8-88 rally????

Look up what 88 stands for.

Adam just seems lke an open minded guy,that's all.

LLD16!

americanfront.org

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#38279 - 05/04/10 12:06 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: EvilDjinn]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: EvilDjinn

I still have doubts over the Temple of the Vampire, but I still think they're interesting and might know things worth knowing.


I know you were specifically asking for input from Dr. Aquino, but since you did it in public I thought I'd throw my two cents in.

Dr. Aquino mentions the Vampire and the significance of Vampires in culture over 30 times in his ToS ebook. The importance of the Vampire aesthetic to Satanists (those Satanists who give it value, that is) isn't only contemporary to the formation of the ToV. It's been around a lot longer than that. In fact, within the ToS there is an Order of the Vampire and their page explains the significance of the aesthetic quite well.

The ToV states quite clearly that the Vampire Bible is inclusive of both fact and fiction. In my mind, it's simply another way of getting in touch with the individual creative power (like lesser and greater magic).

By the by, using a 'fear' symbol to generate a feeling of personal power isn't new either ;\)
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#39663 - 06/29/10 04:38 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Final Conflict]
Zakary Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
The ToV is a parody of the Church of Satan in many ways. I remember years ago thinking 'I'll sign up as a registered member of the CoS, help out as it were'. I was refused entry because I was selling jewellery and clothing with vampire motifs. In fact the email address I communicated with them by was 'worldvampirenation@hotmail.com'. The initial response I received was…. 'what is this WORLD VAMPIRE NATION?'…. I am not joking they replied highlighting my email address in capital....lol! I thought oh my who the F@#k is running the show now, what a retarded response. My respect for the Church of Satan diminished rapidly out of the dumbness of the question and as for the ToV, they are the joke of the Vampire subculture. Yes the ToV did not help the CoS in any way shape or form……..the idiotic diatribe on their website screams ‘errrrrrraaaarrrrrr derrrrrrrr’.

Edited by Zakary (06/29/10 04:39 AM)

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#40142 - 07/12/10 10:19 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Final Conflict]
BaronVonShankly Offline
member


Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 168
Loc: London
To be honest when I first read about this I thought they were just a scheme to sell more necklaces and bracelets etc, however now im not so sure.
I'll get back to you once ive formed an opinion however I do agree with the idea that vampires by nature do drain on others whilst Satanism encourages self reliance.

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#40143 - 07/12/10 07:07 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Final Conflict]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Final Conflict

I agree that there are no special forms of Satanism, but this is precisely the problem. Satanism as a religion and philosophy begins with Dr. LaVey and there was absolutely no theism involved.

So-called "theistic" or "traditional" Satanism is rather moot since no such practices ever existed in history. It's fine for people to believe what they want, but it has nothing to do with Dr. LaVey. The Satanic Bible is quite explicit about this.


You are wrong about this. Satanism did exist before Anton LaVey and his Satanic Bible and it has been discussed here before: http://www.the600club.com/topic35134-1.html

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#40145 - 07/12/10 08:13 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: TheInsane]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3812
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane


You are wrong about this. Satanism did exist before Anton LaVey and his Satanic Bible and it has been discussed here before: http://www.the600club.com/topic35134-1.html

Still insisting that christian heresy is Satanism I see. I for one did not find any of your arguments to that end very convincing.

It's odd how the line between the two is so glaringly obvious to some and to others it may as well not exist at all. Some things can't be taught ;\)
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#40258 - 07/14/10 07:30 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of The Vampire [Re: Dan_Dread]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

Still insisting that christian heresy is Satanism I see. I for one did not find any of your arguments to that end very convincing.

It's odd how the line between the two is so glaringly obvious to some and to others it may as well not exist at all. Some things can't be taught ;\)


Stanislaw Przybyszewski.

Ben Kadosh.

My point is proven. Consistent and coherent ideologies called and practiced as Satanism before Anton LaVey was even born.

Case closed?


Edited by TheInsane (07/14/10 07:33 PM)

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