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#60585 - 10/29/11 07:02 PM Re: Ayn Rand: Corey Robin KPFA Discussion [Re: Diavolo]
BittenApple Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/12/11
Posts: 5
Well, I see the discussion here has growed a bit. But I think both of you are talking crap here. Autodidact:

Could you point to a single fact in scientific literature that negates the reasoning faculty on a healthy individual? Man has to exert this faculty or else face embarrassment and ultimate death.

While less advanced mammals have to adapt themselves to their environment, Man has to adapt the environment to himself, else we would be living in jungles today.


Definitely Man has this faculty that sets him appart from other animals, he has to decide to make use of it or face consequences. The desire of Right Hand Path followers and environmentalists to be "in communion with nature"
is ridiculous at our present stage of evolution.

This can be seen as "unnatural", but is the way it is. Do you use a computer, an automobile, a smartphone?

Dare to tell me that the individuals who created these artifacts were primitive, unconscious savages.


About:

"Powerful men influence populations all the time. In the real world, achieving that power has no moral requirements"


This one shows a lack of understanding of the Laws of Power. We are not talking here about banging-head wannabes wearing
Emperor T-shirts who dream of Conquest and Power while living on Mom's basement. We are talking REAL Power. Go ahead, try
to rise to Power by holding to the wrong moral standards and see how long you last. Even the Yakuza have their honor.

You fail to describe the values that make possible for a Steve Jobs or a Jack Welch to rise to Power and to grow in influence.


About:

"The World doesn't run on "should" "

"should" is the ideal that inspires our actions towards the goal. In this manner, it illuminates the way for the goals
to materialize. The Founding Fathers of the United States of America thought that Governments "should" be different,
Nicola Tesla thought that electricity generators"should" ignite the Lights of Civilization, Bill Gates thought that there "should" be a computer in every household. I think you are underestimating this point.


Diavolo, of course you mention the phenomenal and the noumenal worlds of Kant, who invented that fairy tale because he was
worried the people would abandon his precious religion, Christianism. Man cannot see reality because he has eyes, he
can't feel because he has senses, he can't think because he has mind. He with Hegel, the poisonous root of the now stale
doctrines of postmodernism, that led to Socialism, who miserably failed and is failing now, Look at Europe, you fool.

Would we have landed on the Moon had we had followed all this nonsense?

The phenomena/noumena distinction has long been supplanted by non-Cartesian, linguistic-communicative conceptions of
reasoning in which propositional limits are immanent to making sense/nonsense. As Schopenhauer points out in his "Criticism of the Kantian Philosophy", "noumena" are, in fact, nonsense.


You also fail to recognize that we already have the technology to overcome our human sense limitation. We do have spectrum
analyzers and a great variety of sensors that act a candle in the dark allowing us to perceive the electromagnetic spectrum beyond our human limitations. As technology advances we will be able to see more and more of this spectrum.

The limit of the electromagnetic spectrum is that of the Universe, and recent measurements with several probes had
estimated that the Universe is flat with a 0.5% marging for error, revealing an infinite nature. With a Universe of such
characteristics, what need do we have for a noumenal world? Just keep improving the sensors:

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html

This task alone will take forever, so we have here a great motivation for Humankind to survive. Transhumanism and
Immortalism will be the mediums used to become the next step on evolution, in order to achieve our Eternal Mission:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-beqpg2eaM

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#60589 - 10/29/11 08:11 PM Re: Ayn Rand: Corey Robin KPFA Discussion [Re: BittenApple]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Fool?

You surely must be governed by reason.

I enjoyed your counter-argument, especially because you don't seem to realize that at no point you provided anything explaining why my opinion was wrong.

I say we perceive what we perceive because we compile it as such. You say; but fool, when we use binoculars we can look much farther.

Great but ain't we still looking through that shit?

Back to the drawing board my friend.

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#60594 - 10/29/11 08:42 PM Re: Ayn Rand: Corey Robin KPFA Discussion [Re: BittenApple]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1631
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
While less advanced mammals have to adapt themselves to their environment, Man has to adapt the environment to himself, else we would be living in jungles today. Definitely Man has this faculty that sets him appart from other animals, he has to decide to make use of it or face consequences.


This is a false distinction. Some primates make tools. Other animals make nests, or build hives, dams and other structures. We are not fundamentally different from most other biota out there.

 Quote:
The desire of Right Hand Path followers and environmentalists to be "in communion with nature"
is ridiculous at our present stage of evolution.


How is it ridiculous? No matter how much we change, we will always be subject to some sort of natural law.

I guess it's the main reason I don't buy the whole "human progress" myth. Regardless of the era, affluent clans of men wage war and get more resources while poorer ones starve. The players and weapons change over time, but the basic game doesn't. All the technology we can imagine won't change human nature. Even if we somehow genetically engineer a couple of immortal humanoids in some lab in Switzerland, it won't make a difference for the billions of other humans on the planet.

"Evolution" simply means change; not necessarily for the better. I really don't see how there can be any sort of "Eternal Mission" or any idealistic dream like that.
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#70706 - 09/09/12 01:03 PM Re: Ayn Rand: Corey Robin KPFA Discussion [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Le Deluge Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Very interesting Doug Henwood interview of Corey Robin this morning concerning Ayn Rand. Listen to/download it here; the CR segment is partway through, just after the segment on the Fugs.


I read Atlas Shrugged (and virtually all) of Rand's non-fiction as an adolescent and young adult. This interview reminds me a bit of the biographies written by Nathaniel and Barbara Branden. More to the point would be:

The Ayn Rand Cult

The heroic capitalist! It has a certain appeal to it. In Rand's worldview, it is somehow possible to separate economic and political power. In practice, this strikes me as an absurdity.

The dogma of Rand is almost stunning to read. She was also a lot more emotionally based than she may have admitted to herself. The expulsion of Nathaniel Branden is of particular note here. The heroes tend to be male. The Virtue of Selfishness is useful in some regards. Even here, she lacks the synthesis of say ... one who was trained and unequivocally rejected Soviet academia and dialectical materialism.

I do have a strong suspicion as to why you might post this MAA. Regardless, I found elements of the interview to be accurate. I would not align her with fascism, but the dogma of objectivism may remind you a bit of a current satanic organization? ;\)

Oh, the musings of my youth.

PS: To be fair: Chris Sciabarra presents the best case to the contrary


Edited by Le Deluge (09/09/12 01:18 PM)
Edit Reason: PS
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