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#40883 - 07/27/10 03:32 AM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: TheInsane]
straif Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/20/10
Posts: 20
I think that the philosophies represented behind the very concepts of religion should be studied and looked into and not thrown to the way side. After all, somebody had to use intellect to create such interesting ideas. I feel that all religions started off as simply an idea or philosophy, and that people who gave these ideas power because when they thought about them it seemed to help and, not having the intelligence to think objectively about these ideas, viewed the original thinkers as "prophets" and "holy people".
When you look at any religion solely for it's philosophies then nothing seems wrong. This could be because you are able to pick them apart and weed out the bullshit, or because you are then able to interpret everything within these thoughts in your own way. Both concepts can be a double edged sword, just look at all of the horrible things carried out in nearly every religion over the centuries.
I think the real issue lies not in "religion", but in the fact that people have mistaken "belief" for logic.

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#41161 - 07/31/10 02:43 PM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: Knievel74]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Knievel74
It's never a good idea to "follow" someone else's beliefs or philosophy. Either you naturally think like them or you don't. If you decide to change your ideals and live to be like them then you're denying who you really are and what you can accomplish.


I donít know if this was directed towards me but Id like to clarify that I didnít mean that I change my ideals every time I study a new philosopher. What I meant was that when I study a philosophy or a religion I try to act it like an actor plays a role. He is not the person he is acting to be, and he knows it, but to understand where the character is coming from he consciously goes into his body and for a moment becomes him (to whatever degree that is possible). But even so he knows who he is and he knows that the role he is playing is not him. That is not to say the role can not have an effect on you. Of course it can and sometimes it might change your view for real or bring forth a new aspect that you werenít conscious about having before. Hope that made sense.

 Originally Posted By: straif

When you look at any religion solely for it's philosophies then nothing seems wrong. This could be because you are able to pick them apart and weed out the bullshit, or because you are then able to interpret everything within these thoughts in your own way.


I find that most philosophies make sense in theory if you accept their foundational view of the world. Many people likes to claim that "communism is good in theory but bad in practice". Of course it is and so is every other theory or religion or political view. If you believe the foundations of that faith of course their solutions are the best ones (be is communism, national socialism and liberalism in politics or Satanism, christianity and buddhism in religion). It doesnt however mean that their foundations are correct only that it makes sense within the given worldview.

However, we canít judge philosophies on theory. What actually matters is how they work in practice. Theory means nothing if it canít produce anything in the real world. But then again some religions claim their basis of truth canít be explained or understood by humans so how are we to know if their religions dogmas are the most useful ones? And in politics people do not have the same ideals. And a society that is good for one may not be good for another. So itís never just black or white.

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#41179 - 08/01/10 01:42 AM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: TheInsane]
straif Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/20/10
Posts: 20
Philosophy is a horribly gray area. I think that the reason religions have taken off over individual thought and discussion of such thoughts is more human laziness, and the old adage "actions speak louder than words" which carries into respect for (or fear of) the strong.
With religion, you have had horribly violent zealots on all sides who will kill or torture someone simply because they don't share the same imaginary friend. If you see someone willing to kill you, you just might be inclined to agree with them. Which couples into pack mentality, person B see's that person A is strong and would make a good addition to their pack, so they decide it'd be best to team up with the strongest.
Whereas with philosophy people are usually much more open to discussion of different ideas for the sake of intellectual benefit and curiosity.
I feel that intelligence plays in to it on a massive level as well. Do you ever see articulate religious nuts addressing other articulate religious nuts, or do they usually address easily manipulated groups who are quick to fear anything different?

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#41212 - 08/01/10 03:03 PM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: straif]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Philosophy is a grey area but a lovely one at that according to me. The hard part is that religion and philosophy often are integrated, plays on eachother etc. To differ the two can be quite hard or even impossible at times. There is always philosophy in a religion (not saying all religious people are great thinkers though) but not always religion in philosophy.

And to be honest politics is one branch of philosophy (together with metaphysics and ethics for example) and even without religious belief in spiritual beings those philosophies have claimed many lives as well in the name of their particular philosophy.

And pack mentality is in human nature. If a strong leader cmes forth people will follow, some blindly and some with a more though through approach.

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#41354 - 08/03/10 02:44 AM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: TheInsane]
straif Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/20/10
Posts: 20
I think there's more religion in american politics than philosophy and new ideas.

Sure pack mentality is human nature, but you don't see more intellectual people falling for the sensationalized... unless of course those people have some way to manipulate and gain from taking over control of that pack. Unfortunately with pack mentality though it is not the intelligent people who get followed, it's the strongest and usually most brutal.

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#41872 - 08/12/10 07:08 PM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: TheInsane]
Knievel74 Offline
member


Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
 Originally Posted By: Knievel74
It's never a good idea to "follow" someone else's beliefs or philosophy. Either you naturally think like them or you don't. If you decide to change your ideals and live to be like them then you're denying who you really are and what you can accomplish.


I donít know if this was directed towards me but Id like to clarify that I didnít mean that I change my ideals every time I study a new philosopher. What I meant was that when I study a philosophy or a religion I try to act it like an actor plays a role. He is not the person he is acting to be, and he knows it, but to understand where the character is coming from he consciously goes into his body and for a moment becomes him (to whatever degree that is possible). But even so he knows who he is and he knows that the role he is playing is not him. That is not to say the role can not have an effect on you. Of course it can and sometimes it might change your view for real or bring forth a new aspect that you werenít conscious about having before. Hope that made sense.


It wasn't aimed at you. It was just a general response to the topic. But you're approach to it is interesting. And I mean that in a good way.
_________________________
"Man was meant to live, not just to exist". - Evel Knievel

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#47645 - 01/31/11 01:26 AM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: Knievel74]
Meatl Gear Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 41
In my opinion Lavey Satanism is radical libertarianism. It is not devil worship. It really can be described as self-worship. Now I am not opposed to some self-worship, but I don't take it as far as Lavey.

I think symbolic Satanism is different from Lavey Satanism. In symbolic Satanism, you don't believe the devil exists, but you believe that in the condition that the devil did exist, you would indeed worship the devil.

How many people think that way?

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#47660 - 01/31/11 06:33 AM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: Meatl Gear]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I surely not venerate or worship him. I even don't love him as I indeed don't know him.

However, considering his deeds and accomplishments, he has my respect.


Edited by Fabiano (01/31/11 06:34 AM)

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#47663 - 01/31/11 07:28 AM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: Fabiano]
thedeadidea Offline
member


Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 209
Lavey is more an influence then anything else and not in my personal top ten. Neitzsche is in my top three and I view Lavey as the man that carried forth an avenue for his philosophy to be readily applied to an occult, religious, philisophical and mythic synthesis which appeals to me on many levels.

In terms of Satanism and heros, I cant speak for others inherently. But the way I see it the way you admire people varies on a spectrum briefly illustrated and explained.

At one end :-

Human End... The type of hero which you admire for X,Y and Z trying to educate yourself on the reasoning for it, and let it inspire you as an aspiration of desire. A star to fix your Will to in personal ambition contextualised in the person, deed and your own state of affairs. But one would also be able to see faults if apparent and NOT exalt said hero or influence beyond the measure of other men thus keeping it a purely human phenomenon.

On the other end:-

Golden Cow End... We see people exalt heros as once a generation or once a century kind of fellow. With little appreciation for finer details often relying on admiring the person through culturally embosssed impressions then attention to detail. The heros work is unquestionably out of the realm of a potential for others to ever emulate.

I don't see this is philisophical just a measuring stick to save time. Take Newton I'd golden cow him in terms of his genius is once a generation or once a hundred years... But the guy was also as personable as a thumb tack in the ass.

So it's mix and match but I would like to think there is some middle ground where some human admiration is possible without it resulting in blind idol worship.

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#47668 - 01/31/11 08:38 AM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: thedeadidea]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Do I try to be like Anton LaVey? No. That would be pretty close to impossible, having known the man up close and personal, and my trying to act like LaVey would be a caricature, rather than some kind of living tribute.

I DO try to emulate him in his philosophies and personal mores, which I agreed with during our association and found that they work for me. And I would like to think that if he were alive today, he would be appreciative of the things that I have done with my life, and in remaining faithful to his vision and our core beliefs long, long after others have simply taken that easier path.

And I don't begrudge them that. In life, you do what works for you, as I have. What works for me definitely would be hard for others.

As for "golden cowing" LaVey... hell, I Norelcoed his head. I've seen him up close and personal, warts and all. The guy was a man... and a man's man, a gentleman and a Renaissance man. He enjoyed life and took from it what was good. He was adored by some and hated by others, as are all real men who take the time to actually live life.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#47721 - 01/31/11 09:04 PM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3790
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Do I try to be like LaVey? No, unlike Jake here,I never met the man. Do I emulate his philosophy? No..He described mine.

I see a man that described and crystallized a current that was ALREADY there, and a certain type of individual that had before gone nameless. For this, and it's use to me, I respect both his philosophy and his memory.
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ideological vandal

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#47726 - 01/31/11 09:56 PM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: Meatl Gear]
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
 Originally Posted By: Meatl Gear

I think symbolic Satanism is different from Lavey Satanism. In symbolic Satanism, you don't believe the devil exists, but you believe that in the condition that the devil did exist, you would indeed worship the devil.

How many people think that way?

But if a literal Satan did exist by the Christian definition, wouldn't he already be condemed to Hell? You would worship a deity that is destined to fail in the end?

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#47851 - 02/02/11 12:33 AM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: Lamar]
Meatl Gear Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 41
I should add something. One way I disagree with Lavey is he seems to be a pleasure seeker.

I will be honest. I am a masochist. I enjoy my own pain and suffering.

Masochistic Satanism...

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#47853 - 02/02/11 12:41 AM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: Meatl Gear]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Look... if you're going to try to make a point, at least make one that makes a little sense. You disagree with LaVey because he was a pleasure seeker... but you seek pleasure in your own pain an suffering. This is not only oxymoronic, but stupidly contradicting.

Really, step up your game.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#47854 - 02/02/11 01:23 AM Re: Anton Lavey - Do you try to be like him? [Re: Jake999]
Meatl Gear Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 41
It's not the same thing. I seek accomplishment by withstanding self-abuse.



Can you please stop with the one liners. You have been a member since last 2009. You should honestly know better by now. Morgan


Edited by Morgan (02/02/11 06:37 AM)
Edit Reason: warning/information given

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