#40671 - 07/22/10 10:43 PM
Re: Karl Marx Potential Satanist?
[Re: Lamar]
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MatthewJ1
member
Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 300
Loc: Australia
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Marx is one of those thinkers like Feuerbach, Darwin, Nietzsche and Freud, who absoluely demolished Christianity and other religious worldviews.
Briefly and crudely put Marx turned Hegel over on his head and based the dialectic on materialism, rather than upon spirit or the march of reason in the world. As a result Marx conceived human beings and their consciousness, and the relationships they enter into and the forms of civil, political and cultural society they establish as based upon the means or mode of production and the place of the indvidual in the system.
Human beings, objectively, are what they are through what they do, and what they do is ultimately determined by the economic arrangements in place at a given point in history.
This is very basically put. This theory is a step forward, but then Marx states that history is also class history, and that classes are more or less engaged in constant class warfare. He looks at this warfare in moral terms and then condemns the bourgeoisie or capitalist class and sides with the proletariat or working class.
He also states that the Capitalist mode of production is necessarily doomed to be superceded by Communism. This is an iron law.
Marx is not a Satanist, because he wishes to artificially remove the distinctions and natural hierarchies existing between people by creating a classless society via a dictatorship of the proletariat and a withering away of the state. Problem is that he cannot do away with classes no matter how hard he tries.
One can see what effect this theory had when examining the history of the Soviet Union. It failed, hard.
_________________________
‘My sins are that I wasn't tough enough. I should have trusted no one; never loved a girl.’
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#40678 - 07/23/10 02:12 AM
Re: Karl Marx Potential Satanist?
[Re: Lamar]
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MatthewJ1
member
Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 300
Loc: Australia
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I would like to explore this briefly from the other side.
The only way Marx can possibly be construed as a Satanist is by looking at his work as the articulation of his own subjective universe, in a way which is similar to the artistic vision of Hitler.
This subjective universe of Marx is comprehensively thought and laid down in an abundance of influential literature. It is a powerful form of thought based on a philosophy of materialism, economics, history, human nature and society etc.
It is rather amazing to reflect upon the influence that this work of Marx has had in the objective universe – all of those Communist countries and all of those people under the sway of Communism.
When I think about the way Lenin, Stalin and Mao carried Marx’s subjective vision forward into practical and political reality I cringe somewhat.
On the one hand, Marx seems to firmly locate himself in the history of working class politics, social aspiration and the levelling and removal of hierarchy and stratification; but on the other hand the transforming of his subjective universe into the objective universe, via Lenin and Stalin etc., tends to situate Marx as another father of totalitarianism, which could be considered Satanic in itself.
I invite other members to comment here if they want, as I am not 100% sure now whether Marx is Satanic or not.
(Dr. Aquino I don’t know if you are out there, but I would be interested in your position and thoughts considering your experience in political theory and your definition of GBM.)
_________________________
‘My sins are that I wasn't tough enough. I should have trusted no one; never loved a girl.’
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#40680 - 07/23/10 03:23 AM
Re: Karl Marx Potential Satanist?
[Re: MatthewJ1]
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Meatl Gear
stranger
Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 16
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Post number two was very, very good. I'll add that if "God" is the bourgeois and Satan the "Proletariat," then Marx was a great satanist indeed. He lead the underdog against the ruling class. That is exactly what Satan was in the bible - the underdog. Plus the Bolshevik revolution was largely an atheistic revolution against the Christian Church.
Many of the Bolsheviks happened to be atheistic Jews. HAIL THE JEWISH LIBERATORS (to quote a particular comrade of mine)!
I'll also add that while Marx did a lot to break down capitalist-religious society, he was not a perfect man with perfect ideas. I by no means embrace "anti-revisionist" Marxism in which Marx is followed line for line and word for word.
Edited by Meatl Gear (07/23/10 03:25 AM)
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#40700 - 07/23/10 04:32 PM
Re: Karl Marx Potential Satanist?
[Re: Meatl Gear]
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Draculesti
member
Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 233
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
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Post number two was very, very good. I'll add that if "God" is the bourgeois and Satan the "Proletariat," then Marx was a great satanist indeed. He lead the underdog against the ruling class. That is exactly what Satan was in the bible - the underdog. Plus the Bolshevik revolution was largely an atheistic revolution against the Christian Church.
Having never read any of Marx's works (though I have studied Soviet history), I can't honestly clarify his attitude toward religion. However, communism and Christianity have much in common.
In a nutshell, communism/socialism is an egalitarian concept, inasmuch as Marx sought the equalization of all society through the obliteration of class distinction. Egalitarianism is a decidedly un-Satanic concept. Satanism, in my mind, is certainly not about liberating the masses, and certainly not belonging to them. It is about standing apart from and rising above them.
Karl Marx, a Satanist? I think not.
Edited by Draculesti (07/23/10 04:40 PM)
Edit Reason: reformatting
_________________________
The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.
Homo Homini Lupus
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#40991 - 07/29/10 02:52 AM
Re: Karl Marx Potential Satanist?
[Re: Lamar]
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XiaoGui17
member
Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 151
Loc: Austin, TX
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Running into a wall, indeed. I just checked out the link, a page on the Cutting Edge website.
In my opinion, Cutting Edge is as deluded as the likes of Vigilant Citizen, Jack Chick, Michelle Smith, Mike Warnke, Jess LaVey, Jesus is Savior, and other such nonsense. These paranoid conspiracy theorists could find covert Illuminati and Satanic messages subliminally planted in a peanut butter sandwich. I'd love to show them a series of inkblots.
What do you see?
Lord of the Flies
And now?
New World Order
And here?
S.R.A.
Note that on the main page of this website, they cite Bill Schnoebelen, and Doc Marquis, two alleged "ex-Satanist" hucksters whose personal accounts have been thoroughly debunked. Even most Christians find these folks laughable, much less Satanists who presumably have better bullshit detectors on the issue of our own beliefs.
Marx was virulently anti-religion and anti-establishment. That much is clear from the site. But there's nothing to substantiate the alleged claim that this makes him "Satanic." Like I said, Christians tend to jump the gun and that's just what they've done. "If you're not with us, you're with Satan!" is a common assumption. In their worldview, there is no "third side."
Some discussions of the compatibility of Marxist economic theories and Satanism can be found in this thread.
But as for the link you posted, those same people think Joseph Smith was a Satanist. So I'd take it with a metric ton of salt. 
As for working hard, I'd say that just about any economic theory has an ideological work ethic. Both capitalists and communists believe that people should earn a living. The difference is that communists think people should work for society, whereas capitalists believe people should work for themselves. I think the second is more in keeping with Satanic ideology. As for the state rounding up people who refuse to work, well, communist states also round up people for criticizing the leader or for failing to make impossible quotas. In a capitalist society, those who refuse to work simply rot away as a result of their own laziness. No intervention needed; let nature take its course. Water seeks its own level and all that good jazz.
Also, in capitalist societies there is competition within each industry, a very "might is right" attitude.
_________________________
Senseless as beasts I gave men sense, possessed them of mind.
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