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#41537 - 08/06/10 08:28 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Oxus]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Oxus
A single remark is hardly an attack;
 Quote:
Kori Houghton
It's a great parody of rituals in the style of the Aleister Crowley fan clubs, including the OTO and the Temple of Set. I heart the hilarious barbarous names and incantations. I swear the Harvard Lampoon people are logging in as Blackwood so damn funny!
I don't think TOS members venture outside of the Setian DIR forum, so no one would be aware of her post . . . or care for that matter.

I believe Dr. Aquino has stated many times his agenda for being here. Trolling or recruitment was never mentioned.


The debate in question isn't in the Setian DIR:

 Quote:
Kori said:

The same thing that Aquino meant. You cannot be more of a fan group than one that bases its very existence on the fulfillment of a prophecy.

In my view, any group that was formed on the basis of a belief that its formation fulfills the AL cypher jumps to the head of the fan club line.

The Temple of Set isn't the only one at the top of the fanclub heap, wasn't the first to get there, and won't be the last. But the connection exists between Thelema and the Temple of Set. Separating the TOS from Thelema would be about as possible as getting a divorce from your biological parents. You might get some kind of severance of a legal connection, but the biological origin is not a matter of law. Aquino received the revealed word of Set that he is the magic(k)al heir of Crowley: Wild Card Second Beast, Son of Great Wild Beast, and all that. Maybe the Temple feels that the game is over, so the Wild Card goes back in the box with the rest of the deck?


Source



"Attack" may have been the wrong word to use \:\)
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#41539 - 08/06/10 09:19 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Caladrius]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
Aquino, have you ever felt that weird feeling that you're not welcomed somewhere; or that you have over stayed your welcome lol?

Seems as thoe your trip down memory lane here has become you just lingering... like a fart that hovers in a warm room, that just won't go away. Is all this animosity worth the "nostalgia?"

Actually I have encountered only a very few rude individuals here, which to me just indicates their own insecurity and ill-manners. If they wish me gone, I rather think it's because they don't like being seen, and discounted, for what they really are.

 Quote:
I still think you are here trolling and fishing for the awakened 600 clubers. Even your 5 members over at religious forums admit they have no idea why you are in here chillin with Satanists.

Cite any post of mine in which I have solicited anyone for anything, or asked anyone to "follow" me or my ideas. You cannot, because I haven't and don't.

I know nothing about "religious forums", and I have never sought other Setians' approval or even interest for my visiting this 600C one. Indeed most Setians usually dismiss "Satanism" as an obsolete, primitive relic of the 1960s, but they also know that I have an extensive personal experience with and yes: somewhat sentimental & nostalgic affection for it. I would like to see its legacy an accurate, sincere, and positive one. The 600C impressed me in this regard, and for the most part still does.

 Quote:
You also seem wishy-washy in your feeling with the 600 club. You tell your "son in law" this forum is not Setian calibre, then you say this is the greatest forum full of wonderful people in other thread here, and then you go off subtly attacking the 600 club, 600 clubers, satanatheists like you are here... with your annoying smiley faces.

Of course the 600C is not a Setian forum, but as a Satanist forum it is as as good as I have regularly acknowledged it to be, and my Setian correspondent (who is not "my son in law") understands that too. As for "smiley faces", if these distress you so much, I believe there's a "preferences" setting here where you can prevent yourself from seeing not just them, but my annoying posts entirely on your screen. Then you won't have to worry about anything I say ever again.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#41540 - 08/06/10 09:29 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Caladrius]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
Aquino, have you ever felt that weird feeling that you're not welcomed somewhere; or that you have over stayed your welcome lol?


For the record, you're not speaking for me (not that I carry any weight here to speak of).

Personally, I enjoy Dr Aquino's perspectives and commentaries even if I don't always agree with them. Certainly some here, myself included at times, could take a lesson in humility from the way he comports himself, often in the face of outright rudeness.

I don't think Dr. Aquino's religious views were a secret when he chose to come here and he doesn't mince words about them now. I think the semi frequent personal attacks against him are often unwarranted and always pointless. I think, in fact, that his candor is admirable as he's not pretending to be something he isn't just to fit in.

If you don't find his nostalgia/perspectives on the C/S or the ToS valuable, then perhaps you could find his political and/or military perspectives in some way elucidating? I don't think we have many other high ranking military officers with PHD's willing to offer us insight in threads that have nothing to do with religion. Dr. Aquino's life experience and personal accomplishments are such that I believe he's earned a certain degree of respect and his 'blue' status here is an indicator that the powers that be at the 600 Club are in agreement with the sentiment.

In summary, as is the case with my post, your comments added nothing to the discussion and this is not the first time you've tried to bait/insult Dr Aquino in the middle of a thread. It's tiresome and if anyone is trolling it's you, as Aquino has contributed multiple times to this topic (and didn't once mention you).

Just my 2 pennies.

[/soapbox]
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Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#41541 - 08/06/10 09:42 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Caladrius]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
"Attack" may have been the wrong word to use \:\)

And this is supposed to bother me or the Temple of Set because ..?

All sorts of people have been criticizing the Temple, various Setians, and/or myself for the past 35 years. Sometimes for being both not enough of or too much of the same thing simultaneously. I myself have been characterized as way too stupid or far too malevolently-intelligent to be authentic. In this I will merely defer to a gentleman who, at the height of the Civil War, remarked:

 Originally Posted By: Abraham Lincoln
If I were to try to read, much less answer all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other business. I do the very best I know how - the very best I can, and I mean to keep doing so until the end. If the end brings me out all right, what is said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#41542 - 08/06/10 10:00 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
"Attack" may have been the wrong word to use \:\)

And this is supposed to bother me or the Temple of Set because ..?



The implications it would seem is the essence, I believe. If you read Kori's statement of how you pranced around claiming your Temple of Set is the the fulfillment of gibberish in Crowley's Book of The Law and Thelema.

With a little googling one can figure our Crowley borrowed the concept of "Thelema," "the Abby of Thelema," and "Do What Thou Wilt," from the ideas Sir Dashwood used; who got his ideas from Francois Rabelais:

 Quote:


François Rabelais was a Franciscan and later a Benedictine monk of the 16th century. Eventually he left the monastery to study medicine, and moved to the French city of Lyon in 1532. It was there that he wrote Gargantua and Pantagruel, a connected series of books. They tell the story of two giants—a father (Gargantua) and his son (Pantagruel) and their adventures—written in an amusing, extravagant, and satirical vein.

[...]

It is in the first book (ch. 52-57) that Rabelais writes of this Abbey of Thélème, built by the giant Gargantua.

Source



It seems as though your idea/concept of Set and the ideas/concepts that became your Temple of Set memeplex has its Roots not in ancient Egypt, but in a work of Fiction written by a Catholic Monk? Your infernal mandate of being the legit Satanism and true pre-1975 Church of Satan originates from a work of Fiction via Creepy Crowley...


Edited by Caladrius (08/06/10 10:02 PM)
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#41545 - 08/06/10 11:43 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Caladrius]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
It seems as though your idea/concept of Set and the ideas/concepts that became your Temple of Set memeplex has its Roots not in ancient Egypt, but in a work of Fiction written by a Catholic Monk? Your infernal mandate of being the legit Satanism and true pre-1975 Church of Satan originates from a work of Fiction via Creepy Crowley...

Omigosh, you've actually exposed a connection between the Book of Coming Forth by Night and the Book of the Law; and here I thought this was the Temple of Set's deep, dark secret! But - oops, I must have been so careless including Appendices #3 & #5 [and Category #9 of Appendix #14] in The Temple of Set.

Aleister Crowley made no secret of his familiarity with Rabelais' work, although anyone comparing them will see the marked distinctions between their ideas and attitudes. The same could be said of Crowley's A.'.A.'., which was a variation of the G.'.D.'. in which AC was originally initiated, which was a variation of the S.R.I.A. and so on. If this really interests you, you can follow Aleister all the way back to ancient Egypt in Across the Gulf.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#41546 - 08/06/10 11:45 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Caladrius]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Who cares.
This has gone way beyond Atheism into attacks on common sense, science, people, and everything in between.

If Aquino wants to believe that Set is the be all end all, fine.
If you want to believe the ONA is the be all end all, fine.
If others want to believe that both of you are off the deep end, that's fine too.

You will never agree with Aquino and he will never agree with you. Bringing outside forum bs into this forum serves no one because no one cares about outside bs. Just like how most people here really don't give a shit about MCOS, and would wish that shit was never brought here as well.

As for where his group took inspiration from, every group took inspiration from the ones that came before them. It's nothing new.


M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#41548 - 08/07/10 12:06 AM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Morgan]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Who cares.

Well, exposés like this are profoundly shocking. I mean, I just Googled "600 Club" and got 46,800,000 hits, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that this forum is an unoriginal, inauthentic, and deceitful imitation of a perfectly respectable baseball stadium club in Fresno. And here I thought all this time my postings were eventually going to get me complimentary Grizzlies tickets ... shucks.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#41549 - 08/07/10 01:02 AM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino


If this really interests you, you can follow Aleister all the way back to ancient Egypt in Across the Gulf.


Quite interested now. What the hell was I reading Aquino? A story affiliated with the O.T.O.?

Don't you think that if Crowley - or anybody - had some real connection to Ancient Egypt that academicians, archaeologists, and such would have been all over his ass?

I was a member of A.M.O.R.C. during my membership I correspond a lot with the Grand Lodge asking questions. One thing I really like about them is that they actually take the time to personally respond and honestly answer your questions. Most of the time I asked about their supposed "ancient Egyptian" connection.

I had sent them a small pile of research papers about their actual history, and rather than deny, they confirmed it and provided me with a little more information.

The Rosicrucian Society In England [SRIA], the AMORC, the Traditional Martinist Orders, the pre-Crowley OTO [aka Academia Masonica], the degrees of the Royal Order of Scotland, and the Rosicrucian degrees of the pre-Albert Pike Ancient & Accepted Rite, and the Golden Dawn all were direct or indirect offspring of the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis & Mizraim [RMM].

There was a time when the RMM was a "regular" Masonic Rite, but they started letting in women and the whole rite was rejected as being irregular. In it's irregular state John Yarker bought the charter to the RMM and continued it as a clandestined organization, which would later spawn the above mentioned organizations.

Craft Masonry - which consists of Entered Apprentice; Fellow Craft; and Master Mason Degrees [plus the Holy Royal Arch Degree according to the United Grand Lodge of England] dates back no further then 1717AD.

Of Craft Masonry only the first and second degree existed between 1717-1723. Only after 1723 did the 3rd degree [Master Mason] appear; the Royal Arch degree being created later.

These original two degrees in those times were emphatically Christian. It wasn't until many years later that the UGLE decided to tone down on the Christian rhetoric.

The original two degrees [EA & FC] existed before France sacked Egypt which was a time before Europe had rediscovered ancient Egypt. The Rosetta Stone was no discovered until the late mid 1700's so those first two degrees of Freemasonry were NOT Egyptian in any way.

It wasn't until France re-discovered the ancient Pyramids that an Egyptian fad swept across Europe, which was around the time when new degrees and rites associated with Freemasonry began cropping up. These Egyptian-esque degrees and rites do not have any real connection to the civilization of Ancient Egypt. They are revivalist degrees and rites INSPIRED by the new [re]discovery of the Ancient Egyptian Civilization.

Crowley was an Irregular Mason anyways. The UGLE did not recognize him as a regular Mason. He got his 33 "Scottish Rite" degrees from an irregular and clandestined body in Mexico of all places. Anybody can find this information with google.

Neither the pre-Crowley OTO or the post-Crowley OTO has any real connection to Ancient Egypt.

You trace your roots through Crowley [an irregular Mason], through the OTO [born from an irregular Masonic body], to the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis & Mizraim [an irregular Masonic Rite], to the Egyptian revivalist crazy in Europe?

Either way you run Aquino - Francois and his fiction novel; or Egyptian Revivalism - you still meet a dead end with sufficient research. Anybody willing to write the GL of AMORC or do real research about Freemasonry will get the same resulting information here. Only the ignorant will read your OTO citation and believe your BS.

The only real person in history to have a believable connection to Ancient Egypt is Dhu'l Nun Al-Mizra: the father of Sufism. Even that is questionable.


Edited by Caladrius (08/07/10 01:14 AM)
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#41552 - 08/07/10 03:12 AM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

Actually I have encountered only a very few rude individuals here, which to me just indicates their own insecurity and ill-manners. If they wish me gone, I rather think it's because they don't like being seen, and discounted, for what they really are.


I would like to agree with this. Me and Dr. Aquino do not agree on many things but I always enjoy a good debate and I think its sad when it has come down to the level it has come down to at certain times here. Its a good thing to debate and to learn from others that you do not actually have to agree with. You will grow in yourself.

There are of course a few times where you notice that someone is incapable of debate or that a persons attiude is so bad you cant discuss with him. On the 600 Club I havent seen that from Dr. Aquino yet (even though I can see why some get annoyed with all the references to the e-books - but then again they should probably read them ince they answer the questions they write to Dr. Aquino on the boards).

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#41553 - 08/07/10 06:36 AM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think this debate is amusing indeed and the fact that Aquino and I have opposite opinions on certain subjects doesn't bother me at all. I don't think I'll ever convince him he's wrong and he'll never convince he's right. To make sure, I of course draw a little circle of protection around my chair each time I reply to him. One can never be careful enough.

What impresses me most about him is that his manner of debate is almost like a soldier on the battlefield; quick-stepping through the minefield, dodging bullets and each time finding a safe cover to return fire. It is annoying for the "enemy" but it sure is a remarkable technique. ;\)

D.

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#41561 - 08/07/10 12:48 PM Re: Remain faithful to the earth! [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
Another interesting thing is the concept of "will to power" and how Nietzsche in general spoke bad about metaphysics. Still his thoughts on "will to power" sometimes come very close to a Nietzschean metaphysical theory. Such an interesting philosopher though and probably the man who single handedly had most influence on my philosophical development.


I generally stay as far as possible from metaphysics, unless it is usable as an analogy but the subject of Will to Power is borderlining metaphysics indeed and still I think Nietzsche was on to something. It is a shame his ideas about it are so fragmented and he didn't have the time to work them out.

I am getting more and more convinced that the main drive of everything living is not survival and/or reproduction but domination and that Nietzsche's Will to Power was trying to define this very idea. As such, evolution is not a story of survival but one of dominion and survival and reproduction are merely side-effects of this.

Of course it is hard to find evidence for, besides observations which may or may not be entirely subjective, and the idea probably won't pass any bullshit detector until then. And still, I think there might be something to it.

However an innate "WtP" might be as hard to prove as a "soul" or separate "self".

D.

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#41562 - 08/07/10 01:57 PM 42 ! [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
I am getting more and more convinced that the main drive of everything living is not survival and/or reproduction but domination and that Nietzsche's Will to Power was trying to define this very idea. As such, evolution is not a story of survival but one of dominion and survival and reproduction are merely side-effects of this.

You have a point here, it is the same sentiment I had upon reading WtP. The mere idea it had formed, from what I gathered, was more about finding out of the meaning of life. Which the title might be a slight hint at.

The quest for the meaning of life can be an underlying factor for people to indulge in different sciences or metaphysics. That certain emotion and feeling for belonging which feeds woo-ish ideas and actions (and sometimes plain stupidity).



Edited by Dimitri (08/07/10 02:00 PM)
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#41563 - 08/07/10 02:58 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Caladrius]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
What the hell was I reading Aquino? A story affiliated with the O.T.O.?

Across the Gulf has nothing to do with the O.T.O. It is Crowley's account of a previous incarnation in ancient Egypt on the occasion of the transition of the Æon of Isis into that of Osiris.

 Quote:
Don't you think that if Crowley - or anybody - had some real connection to Ancient Egypt that academicians, archaeologists, and such would have been all over his ass?

Well, AC generally liked having people all over his ass, but academically/archæologically I don't think anyone much bothered.

 Quote:
I was a member of A.M.O.R.C. during my membership I correspond a lot with the Grand Lodge asking questions. One thing I really like about them is that they actually take the time to personally respond and honestly answer your questions. Most of the time I asked about their supposed "ancient Egyptian" connection.

I had sent them a small pile of research papers about their actual history, and rather than deny, they confirmed it and provided me with a little more information.

AMORC is a nice, harmless, and stimulating organization, with a really beautiful Park down here in San Jose. They have an excellent Egyptian Museum and an impressive library which is open to the public. Much of their "Rosicrucian lineage" is imaginary, but as long as everyone knows this and appreciates it for its symbolic purpose, so what?

Setian initiation is demanding and dangerous, as we are going right to the nucleus of the soul and then exploding it outward against the [objective] universe. The AMORC, and RHP initiation generally, embraces the universe and seeks to dissolve the soul into it harmoniously.

 Quote:
The Rosicrucian Society In England [SRIA], the AMORC, the Traditional Martinist Orders, the pre-Crowley OTO [aka Academia Masonica], the degrees of the Royal Order of Scotland, and the Rosicrucian degrees of the pre-Albert Pike Ancient & Accepted Rite, and the Golden Dawn all were direct or indirect offspring of the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis & Mizraim [RMM] ... These original two degrees in those times were emphatically Christian. It wasn't until many years later that the UGLE decided to tone down on the Christian rhetoric.

There were many interconnections among/between these occult societies [and others], and you're entering serious MEGO territory if you try to sort it all out. There is a pretty good & basic SRIA summary in Wiki for the casually-curious.

As for the O.T.O., while it might formally date from Theodor Reuss' 1917 Manifesto, German "occult Templarism" extends murkily back several centuries, and not just through Freemasonry (though FM would create its own Knights Templar 33° [my maternal grandfather was one, and I still have his very ornate sword]).

I was a friend of Grady McMurtry of the "Caliphate" O.T.O., and still am with several of its other sages such as Bill Heidrick and James Wasserman. I think probably the most voracious O.T.O historian is my Swiss friend Peter-R Koenig, who has published several extensive books in this area.

 Quote:
... These Egyptian-esque degrees and rites do not have any real connection to the civilization of Ancient Egypt. They are revivalist degrees and rites INSPIRED by the new [re]discovery of the Ancient Egyptian Civilization.

No disagreement here. FM has always had a coquettish relationship with Egypt, since ancient Egypt is really not compatible with Judæo/Christianity [except insofar as their lore is a degenerate corruption of its]. I think most would agree that the original Golden Dawn (Westcott/Woodman/Mathers) was the first major departure in this regard.

 Quote:
You trace your roots through Crowley [an irregular Mason], through the OTO [born from an irregular Masonic body], to the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis & Mizraim [an irregular Masonic Rite], to the Egyptian revivalist crazy in Europe?

No, the Temple of Set has no connection with the O.T.O. except a mutually-friendly one. Grady and I were introduced by Francis Regardie, who despite grumping at Anton LaVey for his blasphemous appropriation (!) of Crowley's Equinox Keys, was fascinated by the Book of Coming Forth by Night. Although both my grandfathers were Masons, I am not.

 Quote:
Either way you run Aquino - Francois and his fiction novel; or Egyptian Revivalism - you still meet a dead end with sufficient research.

I'm not running in either direction. The authority of the Temple of Set comes from Set directly and personally, in the Book of Coming Forth by Night.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#41564 - 08/07/10 03:33 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
The authority of the Temple of Set comes from Set directly and personally, in the Book of Coming Forth by Night.


Prove it.
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