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#40769 - 07/24/10 09:52 PM the deception of atheism
Eljon
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most Satanists ( except spiritual satanists ) are atheists.
That means, they do not believe in Gods, and satans existence.
Can this worldview withstand scrutiny faced and based on the scientific knowledge, we have today ?
i can say confidently, not.
A close examination of the scientific facts evidence that a
naturalistic worldview is irrational.

I will present below a view arguments, which lead to this conclusion :

The naturalistic worldview does not explain satisfactorly

- the origin of the universe aka

why is there something, rather than nothing ?

the universe had a beginning
everything that begins to exist, has a cause.
since the universe had a beginning, it had a cause.

- the fine-tuning of the universe.

there are up to date over 120 finetune constants known to man.
how can these be explained, unless a ID finely tuned them to life ?
the vastness of the universe is entailed to our existence.
If it would not the that large, we could not exist.
the solar - moon - earth system is finely tuned to life

- life on earth

abiogenesis is not possible - its evidence that a naturalistic explanation can be discarded
the complexity of the cell is evidence of a creator

DNA is not merely a pattern. Its a code, a language, and a information storage mechanism
all information has as origin a mind
therefore, DNA was created by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my argument. All you need is one.

Einstein’s Gulf:

On the one side, we find the real world of objects, events, and tensional spacetime relations. On the other side, we find fully abstract representations that contain information about the material world. That articulate information is abstracted first by our senses, secondarily by our bodily actions, and tertiarily by our ability to use one or more particular languages . Between the two realms we find what appears to be an uncrossable gulf.


Edited by Eljon (07/24/10 09:54 PM)

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#40770 - 07/24/10 09:58 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: ]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Who or what created your Intellegent designer?
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#40773 - 07/24/10 10:05 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Asmedious]
Eljon
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
Who or what created your Intellegent designer?


beyond the Big Bang , there was no time. you can create something only IN time.

God would exist timelessly and independently 'prior' to creation; at creation, which he has willed from eternity to appear temporally, time begins, and God subjects himself to time by being related to changing things.


Therefore, God was not created , but always was.
He existed beyond creation in a timeless eternity, without beginning, and without end. Interestingly, this explanation, which is derived by science, finds confirmation in the bible.

http://vintage.aomin.org/JOHN1_1.html

John 1:1-3, 14, 18

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being...And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth...No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

The key element in understanding this, the first phrase of this magnificent verse, is the form of the word "was," which in the Greek language in which John was writing, is the word en (the "e" pronounced as a long "a" as in "I ate the food"). It is a timeless word - that is, it simply points to existence before the present time without reference to a point of origin. One can push back the "beginning" as far as you can imagine, and, according to John, the Word still is. Hence, the Word is eternal, timeless. The Word is not a creation that came into existence at "the beginning," for He antedates that beginning.


Edited by Eljon (07/24/10 10:10 PM)

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#40774 - 07/24/10 10:10 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: ]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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So your side can claim “Always was,” which basically means unexplainable, but our side cannot make the same claim regarding that which caused the Big Bang? As far as I’m concerned if you can say “no beginning and no end,” regarding a creator, then so can we regarding the beginning of time and the cause of the Big Bang.
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"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#40775 - 07/24/10 10:15 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: ]
TV is God Moderator Offline
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Posts: 273
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 Originally Posted By: Eljon


The naturalistic worldview does not explain satisfactorly

- the origin of the universe aka

why is there something, rather than nothing ?

the universe had a beginning
everything that begins to exist, has a cause.
since the universe had a beginning, it had a cause.


One of my favorite arguments. "Nothing could have begun on its own therefore proving the exitance of a celestial being that did." Pefect logic, buddy. The world must have a cause. But apparantly the cause doesn't need a cause.

 Quote:


- the fine-tuning of the universe.

there are up to date over 120 finetune constants known to man.
how can these be explained, unless a ID finely tuned them to life ?
the vastness of the universe is entailed to our existence.
If it would not the that large, we could not exist.
the solar - moon - earth system is finely tuned to life

If you understood how evolution works you'd know that the universe is not "fine tuned" for life but that life changes at random untill it is "fined tuned" to its suroundings. Sure maybe life needs a bit of a lucky start but that's why there's life here and not on pluto. Porbability ensures that under our planet's circumstances life was bound to happen. And that life developed to its surroundings.

 Quote:

- life on earth

abiogenesis is not possible - its evidence that a naturalistic explanation can be discarded
the complexity of the cell is evidence of a creator

And what is it that makes you say it is not possible? You make a claim with no evidence to back it up. Scientits have been able to make new living cells from putting electricity through amino acids for quite a while now.


 Quote:

DNA is not merely a pattern. Its a code, a language, and a information storage mechanism
all information has as origin a mind
therefore, DNA was created by a mind.

Again you make a clain with absolutely no evidence. Why is it not a partern? There's plenty of good material out there that explain in detail exactly how and why dna changes and what makes it end up into "code." There's no mystery to the process.

 Quote:

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my argument. All you need is one.

Most animals communicate with different sounds. Humans communicate with sounds. Horses communicate with ear positions. At what point is it a "language" ? When they start correcting eachother's grammar?

 Quote:

Einstein’s Gulf:

On the one side, we find the real world of objects, events, and tensional spacetime relations. On the other side, we find fully abstract representations that contain information about the material world. That articulate information is abstracted first by our senses, secondarily by our bodily actions, and tertiarily by our ability to use one or more particular languages . Between the two realms we find what appears to be an uncrossable gulf.

You greatly misunderstand what he was trying to say. He was talking about how our sences and perception and actual existance are two different things. Ie how we think of objects in how we see light reflecting off them as opposed to thier more "real" molecular build as an example.

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#40777 - 07/24/10 10:17 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: ]
TV is God Moderator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Eljon

Therefore, God was not created , but always was.

One of my favoite arguments.

The world breaks the rules.
NOTHING can break the rules.
Therefor proving the existance of something that breaks all the rules.

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#40778 - 07/24/10 10:20 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Asmedious]
Eljon
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
So your side can claim “Always was,” which basically means unexplainable, but our side cannot make the same claim regarding that which caused the Big Bang?


I presume you are a Atheist. If so, what would you suggest,caused the universe ?
If you are not a Atheist, applies the same question.



 Originally Posted By: Asmedious

As far as I’m concerned if you can say “no beginning and no end,” regarding a creator, then so can we regarding the beginning of time and the cause of the Big Bang.


sure you can. But the cause of the universe is by definition the creator. This leads to agnostic theism. Therefore, you would need to explain, which God you suggest,was the creator, and why.

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#40780 - 07/24/10 10:42 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: TV is God]
Eljon
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: TV is God

If you understood how evolution works you'd know that the universe is not "fine tuned" for life but that life changes at random untill it is "fined tuned" to its suroundings.


Fine-tuning must exist, our universe to " survived " even the earliest stages of its cosmic evolution, and the appearance of matter.

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/big-bang-precisely-planned/

If the universe had expanded just a little slower, the material would have dribbled out like big drops of water, then collapsed back where it came from by the force of gravity.
A little too fast, and you get a meaningless spray of fine dust. A little too slow, and the whole universe collapses back into one big black hole.
The surprising thing is just how narrow the difference is. To strike the perfect balance between too fast and too slow, the force, something that physicists call “the Dark Energy Term” had to be accurate to one part in ten with 120 zeros.
If you wrote this as a decimal, the number would look like this:
0.000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000001

the strength of the strong nuclear force.

If it were about two percent weaker, life-essential heavy elements would be unstable. If it were about two percent stronger, then quarks would not form into protons, so there'd be no ordinary matter at all. Two percent either way, and there would be no life.

The weak nuclear force is what controls the rates at which radioactive elements decay. If this force were slightly stronger, the matter would decay into the heavy elements in a relatively short time. However, if it were significantly weaker, all matter would almost totally exist in the form of the lightest elements, especially hydrogen and helium ---there would be (for example) virtually no oxygen, carbon or nitrogen, which are essential for life.

a pre requisite to create life , is the existence of carbon.

Carbon chemistry

Lee Smolin (a world-class physicist and a leader in quantum gravity) estimates that if the physical constants of the universe were chosen randomly, the epistemic-probability of ending up with a world with carbon chemistry is less than one part in 10^220.
This epistemic-probability is one part in: 10000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 0.
Epistemic Probability: 0.0000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 1

gravitational constant: Determines strength of gravity. If lower than stars would have insufficient pressure to overcome Coulomb barrier to start thermonuclear fusion (i.e. stars would not shine). If higher, stars burn too fast, use up fuel before life has a chance to evolve.

there are many more. But that shows, not only must life be finely tuned to the earth , and the universe, but the universe must be finely tuned, to create matter, carbon, and many other life essential parts.

 Quote:

Sure maybe life needs a bit of a lucky start but that's why there's life here and not on pluto.


because our solar - moon - earth system is also finely tuned to life.

all these elements must be right :

the axial tilt of the Earth
the rotational period of the Earth
the Earth's crust thickness
Earth's gravity and interaction with the moon
CO2 and ozone levels in the atmosphere
oxygen/nitrogen ratio in the atmosphere
the mass and size of the Earth
and about a 70 more special factors

 Quote:

And what is it that makes you say it is not possible? You make a claim with no evidence to back it up. Scientits have been able to make new living cells from putting electricity through amino acids for quite a while now.


really ? a link to back this up ?


 Quote:

Again you make a clain with absolutely no evidence. Why is it not a partern? There's plenty of good material out there that explain in detail exactly how and why dna changes and what makes it end up into "code." There's no mystery to the process.


you need to distinguish between pattern, and design. Pattern can be a tornado, dunes, snow flakes etc. which are chaotic, and do not form a code and information, which can be copied. Music however, for example, can be represented through simbolic notes, which correspond to the physical form, the vibrations in the air. it can be reproduced through coded information, through language. To create information, you need matter, energy , and will. You need to decide to create the information. Someone needs to write the notes, and afterwards, they can be reproduced exactly. DNA is like a letter, its coded information, using four letters. Its a encoding/decoding mechanism, and the DNA code can be copied as many times as whished. It represents a living organism. You , for example.
To create information, you need letters like a alphabet, grammar, meaning and intent. DNA is a language, and has therefore as origin a mind.

 Quote:

Most animals communicate with different sounds. Humans communicate with sounds. Horses communicate with ear positions. At what point is it a "language" ? When they start correcting eachother's grammar?


Yes, animals can communicate as well. But, who or what created the animals ?

 Quote:

You greatly misunderstand what he was trying to say.


that are not MY words, but his. I did not interprete anything. I just copied HIS words. What he was saying , is, that there is a unbridgeable gulf between matter, and information. Matter cannot create information and consciousness by chance.


http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab2/information-evidence-for-a-creator

Fundamental Law 1 (FL1)

A purely material entity, such as physicochemical processes, cannot create a nonmaterial entity. (Something material cannot create something nonmaterial.)
Physical entities include mass and energy (matter). Examples of something that is not material (nonmaterial entity) include thought, spirit, and volition (will).

Fundamental Law 2 (FL2)

Information is a nonmaterial fundamental entity and not a property of matter.
The information recorded on a CD is nonmaterial. If you weigh a modern blank CD, fill it with information, and weigh it again, the two weights will be the same. Likewise, erasing the information on the CD has no effect on the weight.
The same information can be transmitted on a CD, a book, a whiteboard, or using smoke signals. This means the information is independent of the material source. A material object is required to store information, but the information is not part of the material object. Much like people in an airplane are being stored and transferred in the plane, they are not part of the physical plane.
The first law of thermodynamics makes it clear that mass and energy (matter) can neither be created nor destroyed. All mass and energy in the universe is being conserved (the total sum is constant). However, someone can write a new complicated formula on a whiteboard and then erase the formula. This is a case of creating and destroying information.

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#40781 - 07/24/10 11:00 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: ]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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 Quote:
the cause of the universe is by definition the creator. This leads to agnostic theism. Therefore, you would need to explain, which God you suggest,was the creator, and why.


It was the God "Set." He created the universe with a grand force of spiritual thought matter, because after always being, he was bored. He created a Big Bang from nothing only to find that the whole process was watched as it unfolded by another God Alah. Set's actions made Allah very angry.
Allah being the stronger of the two sent Set into eternal, darkness, from which Set decided to rise out of in 1975 and to reveal himself only to those who were searching for him.

More information can be found on my new E-book called, from nothing to Set, to Allah, a.k.a "And here we are."
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#40782 - 07/24/10 11:03 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Asmedious]
Eljon
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
 Quote:
the cause of the universe is by definition the creator. This leads to agnostic theism. Therefore, you would need to explain, which God you suggest,was the creator, and why.


It was the God "Set." He created the universe with a grand force of spiritual thought matter, because after always being, he was bored. He created a Big Bang from nothing only to find that the whole process was watched as it unfolded by another God Alah. Set's actions made Allah very angry.
Allah being the stronger of the two sent Set into eternal, darkness, from which Set decided to rise out of in 1975 and to reveal himself only to those who were searching for him.

More information can be found on my new E-book called, from nothing to Set, to Allah, a.k.a "And here we are."



So what evidence do you have this story to be true ?

i mean, why could your story be like this ?

It was the God "the flying spaghettimonster" vulgar called "FSM". He created the universe with a grand force of spiritual thought matter, because after always being, he was bored. He created a Big Bang from nothing only to find that the whole process was watched as it unfolded by another God " the brown meat sauce " vulcar called " BMS". FSM's actions made BMS very angry.
BMS being the stronger of the two sent FSM into eternal, darkness, from which FSM decided to rise out of in 1975 and to reveal himself only to those who were searching for him.


Edited by Eljon (07/24/10 11:06 PM)

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#40783 - 07/24/10 11:06 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: ]
TV is God Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/11/08
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 Originally Posted By: Eljon
blah blah christian pseudo-science propeganda blog copy pasta

Yes the universe is very rare to come to existance as it is. A god is an increadibly more unlikely happening. "It explains everything" dosn't count as evidence. Science (or LOGIC) is the practice of making conclusions based on evidence. Not the act of proposing conclusions and finding evidence to support them. Need I also point out finding evidence to "disprove" other theories is not evidence for another theory.

 Quote:

all these elements must be right :

the axial tilt of the Earth
the rotational period of the Earth
the Earth's crust thickness
Earth's gravity and interaction with the moon
CO2 and ozone levels in the atmosphere
oxygen/nitrogen ratio in the atmosphere
the mass and size of the Earth
and about a 70 more special factors

Well that could all be true for all the life we know about. It's probably not impossible for some kind of other life to exist under other circumstances. But we can't speculate on that because we have not encountered life under other circumstances.

 Quote:



really ? a link to back this up ?

Well the first from entirely man made dna that's self replicating was this year
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/05/scientists-create-first-self-replicating-synthetic-life/

The first artifical cell was in 1957
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Chang
The wiki is a bit skimpy but I don't really have the time to look up a better article at the moment.

I don't want to be late for work so I don't have time to the rest right now.
To Be Continued.

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#40784 - 07/24/10 11:26 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: ]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Posts: 1753
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 Quote:
So what evidence do you have this story to be true ?


Because IT IS WRITTEN!!


In my E-book that is, which was inspired by the cosmic force who’s name must not be spoken.
Therefore it is so.

 Quote:
i mean, why could your story be like this ?
....blah blah blah spaghetti and meatballs...blah blah....


Because it’s not a “story,” it is a cosmic reality.

Once you’ve read my E-book, you will understand fully.
I will send you a link to my E-book as soon as it is available.

By the way my E-book is free.

It’s a really good E-book also.

Thanks.

Oh did I mention that I didn’t write the E-book that I’m referring to, but instead the E-book that I’ve written was telecommunicated to me by the “force which must not be called by name.” (Nor should any kind of physical likeness of this force ever be presented in art or the like.).
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#40785 - 07/24/10 11:30 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: TV is God]
Eljon
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: TV is God
[quote=Eljon] blah blah christian pseudo-science propeganda blog copy pasta


no, its not. that is secular data, which is commonly accepted by the secular scientific community, even by atheists, like Stenger, and Dawkins. Deny this data, is denying hard scientifi facts. If you want to debate on UNscientific ground, this debate will be senseless. Wheter you accept the data, and form your belief on reality, or you form a confirmation bias on fiction.

 Originally Posted By: TV is God

Yes the universe is very rare to come to existance as it is. A god is an increadibly more unlikely happening.


Why ?


 Originally Posted By: TV is God

"It explains everything" dosn't count as evidence. Science (or LOGIC) is the practice of making conclusions based on evidence.


No. Science provides the scientific data. the conclusion is personal belief. Often distored by presuppositional committance to faith in the naturalistic worldview.

 Originally Posted By: TV is God

Well the first from entirely man made dna that's self replicating was this year
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/05/scientists-create-first-self-replicating-synthetic-life/

The first artifical cell was in 1957
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Chang
The wiki is a bit skimpy but I don't really have the time to look up a better article at the moment.

I don't want to be late for work so I don't have time to the rest right now.
To Be Continued.


It didn't spontaneously form, it was a manipulated reaction.


Edited by Eljon (07/24/10 11:31 PM)

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#40787 - 07/24/10 11:35 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: Asmedious]
Eljon
Unregistered



 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
 Quote:
So what evidence do you have this story to be true ?


Because IT IS WRITTEN!!


In my E-book that is, which was inspired by the cosmic force who’s name must not be spoken.
Therefore it is so.

 Quote:
i mean, why could your story be like this ?
....blah blah blah spaghetti and meatballs...blah blah....


Because it’s not a “story,” it is a cosmic reality.

Once you’ve read my E-book, you will understand fully.
I will send you a link to my E-book as soon as it is available.

By the way my E-book is free.

It’s a really good E-book also.

Thanks.

Oh did I mention that I didn’t write the E-book that I’m referring to, but instead the E-book that I’ve written was telecommunicated to me by the “force which must not be called by name.” (Nor should any kind of physical likeness of this force ever be presented in art or the like.).


Well, who does garantee you, this “force which must not be called by name.” is not lying to you ?

Satan was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, 109 because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, 110 he speaks according to his own nature, 111 because he is a liar and the father of lies.

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#40788 - 07/24/10 11:40 PM Re: the deception of atheism [Re: ]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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 Quote:
Satan was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, 109 because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, 110 he speaks according to his own nature, 111 because he is a liar and the father of lies.


"112..ignore everything from 1-111, it is all falasy. Believe only 112, for it is the only truth."

-Telecommunicated from the force that must not be called by name to Asmedious 24 July 2010-
_________________________
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