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#4085 - 02/11/08 11:03 AM Satanism, Satanism and Satanism.
Sethsryt Offline
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Satanism, one thing got quite clear for me; many satanists do not agree with each other.

Some satanists do not believe in any god or goddess or paranormal manifestation. "I can't see it, so I do not believe it." Yet then, allot of people would not exist in this world for me. Kind of a quantum philosophy. I am the creator of my own world, so all of you are created by me. Those who disagree are there to question me for personal growth or mere amusement. Then I must be a very sadistic person, seeing how many people suffer. For I alone exist and you all are figments of my imagination.

Then some believe that Satan and God exist. Worshiping Satan because he is the "ruler of earth". Or just because they want pleasure of the mortal realm. Or maybe they worship Satan as left hand of god. Who knows?

Some other Satanists believe in entities as evolved souls. Some wish to enslave mankind, some wish to teach human souls to become like them. They also seem to believe in paranormal activities and see it as astral evolution.

And then we have those posers who only seek to shock people with the label "Satanist".

The one thing I see clearly at Satanism is that many keep a closed mind upon the more spiritual subjects. What science can't prove, does not exist. Like fish raining from the sky, science said it was mass-hallucination till it actually happened.

Some see Satan as fake, others as left hand of god, a god older then Christianity, an idol, an example, an archetype.

As I said earlier. We prove this reality with tools created in this reality. Is it the same as creating tools in our dreams to prove our dreams to be real? Maybe this earth is all "mass-hallucination". A fantasy shared by all.

Is Satanism just one thing? Are all other satanists who have another view on Satanism Posers? Lost souls? Freaks? Weirdos or junkies?

Or is a label with many sub-groups. Like Gothic this seems to be so grand. Put a Cyber gothic, an Emo, A metalhead, a vampire fan and a Classic Victorian Goth in one room and most likely you will get a fight.

Fun all these closed minds with different opinions. Maybe the biggest mistake is to not limit your ability of free will and thought.
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#4140 - 02/12/08 06:42 PM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: Sethsryt]
DaVinci Offline
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Registered: 02/09/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Australia
Members of the Church of Satan, or those who value the ideologies of Anton LaVey, will deny the existance of Theistic Satanism or other known organisations.

"Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies" - Theistic (Traditional) Satanism has been around for centuries. But they deny it, even when the facts exist.
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#4141 - 02/12/08 06:44 PM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: Sethsryt]
Sven Offline
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Registered: 01/19/08
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Yes, satanist have many conflicting veiws on an indivdual level, but on such a level many things are subjective in any group, epoch, or organization. Yet, their are certian things that MAKES a satanist, hence making different "types" of satanist.

Edited by Sven (02/12/08 07:01 PM)
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#4142 - 02/12/08 07:01 PM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: Sven]
Sethsryt Offline
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Loc: The Netherlands
Why though? La Vey called into being the labels "Modern" and "Traditional" Satanism to divide the two. Now his followers are actually calling all other forms of Satanism "fake".

That's rather unfortunate.

Is it the way someone wants to be him or herself and stay that way forever that makes that someone a satanist? Or something else?
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#4144 - 02/12/08 07:24 PM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: Sethsryt]
Mr_Walker696 Offline
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Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 5
I "Personally" Donít Believe In Any God Or Devil And To Believe Such Is Simply A Hold Over From Dead/Soon Dead Religions, However I Do Try And Keep My Mind Open To The Possibility That There Is Something (Maybe even Grazing the Supernatural) That Lies Beyond the Metal, Dirt, General Minutiae Of Our Day-To-Day Lives, However Until I See Some Evidence With My Own Eyes, Reason Will Not Allow Me To Embrace These Notions As Anything More Than Fantasy
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#4146 - 02/12/08 07:39 PM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: Sethsryt]
Sven Offline
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Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 46
I'd suggest reading the Satanic Bible to learn of some core satanic values and satanic veiws'. As for the satanic indivdual usually finds what is said in the Satanic Bible as common sense, and uses that common sense to build on to their philosophies.
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#4152 - 02/12/08 08:15 PM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: Sven]
Sethsryt Offline
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Loc: The Netherlands
I should take the time to read that booklet through,
yet I do know it is not the core of Satanism in general.
It is the core to modern Satanism as La Vey labeled it.
And many satanist sub-cultures might have based their ideas around it. But it is not the core.

I find the rules refreshing, though I do find the rule of Aleister Crowley just as fascinating. "Do as you will, shall be the whole of the law." One can easily overlook the complexity and see it as a rule to total anarchy. Yet it is more delicate. If, for example, you want to give a person a hug, you may, unless the other person would dislike it. Then it is against the will of that person, and since Aleister Crowley saw the will as holy, one would be breaking that one rule.

Many things have deeper meanings. Like most of the demons in the Goetia have their origins from pagan deities. One of the most clear are Bael and Amon.
Then there is a philosophy about how the 72 demons in the Goetia represent the human mind. And that each demons is actually a piece of personality and power of that mind.
I find this all very interesting.

Common Sense, what is common sense? I do know "common sense" and what it means. But then again, some people see this as ignore or flame posts and data about things which science cannot prove yet.

I do hope we can discuss all this in the future without the ignorant "no common sense" or "all fiction".
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#4154 - 02/12/08 08:20 PM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: Mr_Walker696]
Sethsryt Offline
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 20
Loc: The Netherlands
Part of my personality has this opinion. I am a very dreamy person and that bit of harsh judgment of my atheistic part of my personality sometimes quite bothers me.

When will you believe something?
When you talk to it?
When it begins talking back?
When it shows it's effects on the world?
When it actually gives exact data and predicts future events?
When it manifests itself to masses of people?
When it slaps you in the face and calls you names?
When it starts earning you gold and money?
 Originally Posted By: Mr_Walker696
I "Personally" Donít Believe In Any God Or Devil And To Believe Such Is Simply A Hold Over From Dead/Soon Dead Religions, However I Do Try And Keep My Mind Open To The Possibility That There Is Something (Maybe even Grazing the Supernatural) That Lies Beyond the Metal, Dirt, General Minutiae Of Our Day-To-Day Lives, However Until I See Some Evidence With My Own Eyes, Reason Will Not Allow Me To Embrace These Notions As Anything More Than Fantasy
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#4198 - 02/13/08 07:45 PM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: Sethsryt]
Sven Offline
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Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 46
Reread my post, I never said the book is the core in satanic groups or Satanism in general. Considering your first post was about different satanist today, then modern Satanism plays a big part in those groups.

Yes, you should take the time to read Lavey's writing the Satanic Bible it is worth the hour it takes to read. Take what you want from it, but as for wanting to carry on a conversation about it read it first maybe the conversation will be a bit more logical.

As for things having a "deeper meaning" the meaning of something is only as deep as you make it. Sometimes, though the meaning of something is simple and is as it appears ,no matter what you make it or wish you could make it. It's easy to give meaning to something, but the real challenge is to just accept it as it is.
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#4252 - 02/15/08 05:32 AM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: Sven]
Sethsryt Offline
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 20
Loc: The Netherlands
Ah, when I will find time for it I will.
As I need to read more about Aleister's work.
Some might see him as a lunatic, I find what I already read about him, quite interesting.

When we accept everything as it is, how will we grow?
I always had an interest in the "how does it work" and "why does it work". One of the reasons "religion" never worked for me. As I kept questioning and testing it, no modern day religion survived my judgement.

If we accept something for what it is. Like we did once with the church, how will we grow? We should question everything, even science. Once science and the church worked together; because it was gods world and science would only prove it. Yet science did not do that, it sometimes disagreed.
Now science finds itself in a new dilemma. Instead of finding it disagree with a religion, it now finds itself with facts that will shake it's "atheistic" basics.
What if one who was declared for some hours after being resurrected remembers things which happened during the operation?

What if science finds proof of things that couldn't exist in the philosophy of the modern day scientists? Some anti-biotica seem to help for people who lost memory. They actually regained it. It works, but how? Should we just accept it happens? Or should we try to find out so we can evolve and science can evolve with it? Either science evolves or will become worn and thrown away.

Though now, right now it would be better for people to respect eachothers opinions, yet those with religions will get easily stuck in it. Act as if the religion is the only truth. Yet we all walk our own way, we all learn a different piece of the puzzle called truth.

To be honest, the agresivity the Islam, but also other religions react to the modern way world really troubles me. I would hate to live in a world in which I had to obey a religion.

Freedom of Thought and Speech be blessed.
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#4300 - 02/17/08 11:11 PM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: Sethsryt]
Sven Offline
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Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 46
To have a "deeper meaning" and to "question" are two different things. MEANINGS are what we make up, as the answer to QUESTIONS asked. Whenever someone asks me how can you live life without looking for those "deeper meanings," I loan them a copy of the Bible and point out the reason for its unfortunate existence. ( the need for a deeper meaning) Deeper meanings for the most part (if not in its entirety) is a method of denial, when one cannot or does not wish to accept things for what they are, so stories are made up to justify their denial. Beliefs and superstitions are created to put up walls around the essence of that denail and reinforce it. (If there is one thing that high school taught me, that is if you say something confidentially enough people will believe you.) If you are confident in that "deeper meaning" you spread that denial to others causing them to believe you and defend your flasehoods against, hence spreading it on to others.

I don't promote questioning EVERYTHING, but I do sincerely promote the questioning of the RIGHT things. In other words productive questioning, you can put a philosophical question to anything existing and/or non-existing (hence wasting too much of your time debating the existence of the pen infront of you or the book you read yesterday).

Does it exist?

Does it matter?

I think a negative result of society's philosophical awareness is that they assume to be philosophical means everything and anything is open debate. For example the most generic philosophical scapegoat, how do you know?

You can believe and you can preach/rant (I say preach/rant, because most preaching is ranting, although most ranting is rarely preaching) on living for deeper meanings with most religious dogmatic crap or think for yourself.

So you have to choose, continue appealing to the mass of mindless idoits or accept something in its, less then exciting, simplistic form. It's like a math problem, when you dont know how to work it out, its a mystery until someone points out to you the logic in it. Then what is the math problem after you learn how to solve it?

Simple.

Examples of deeper meaning denail crap: Ouija Boards, Tarot cards, Astrology, Palmistry, Horoscopes, and Numerology.

People in terms of masses look to things for a "deeper meaning" and usually are just being swindled into wasting their money.

Now questioning in terms of science is a completely different arena. There is a method to finding answers and results only considered "answers" when they are repeatable with the same results. There is a discipline to the art of questioning that is essential to making such questions productive, and a major part of that discipline is being able to accept the answer you've got and not look for the one you want.




Sven
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A poor fool indeed is he who adopts a manner of thinking for others!
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#4301 - 02/17/08 11:56 PM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: Sven]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Sven
To have a "deeper meaning" and to "question" are two different things. MEANINGS are what we make up, as the answer to QUESTIONS asked. Whenever someone asks me how can you live life without looking for those "deeper meanings," I loan them a copy of the Bible and point out the reason for its unfortunate existence. ( the need for a deeper meaning) Deeper meanings for the most part (if not in its entirety) is a method of denial, when one cannot or does not wish to accept things for what they are, so stories are made up to justify their denial. Beliefs and superstitions are created to put up walls around the essence of that denail and reinforce it. (If there is one thing that high school taught me, that is if you say something confidentially enough people will believe you.) If you are confident in that "deeper meaning" you spread that denial to others causing them to believe you and defend your flasehoods against, hence spreading it on to others.

I don't promote questioning EVERYTHING, but I do sincerely promote the questioning of the RIGHT things. In other words productive questioning, you can put a philosophical question to anything existing and/or non-existing (hence wasting too much of your time debating the existence of the pen infront of you or the book you read yesterday).

Does it exist?

Does it matter?

I think a negative result of society's philosophical awareness is that they assume to be philosophical means everything and anything is open debate. For example the most generic philosophical scapegoat, how do you know?

You can believe and you can preach/rant (I say preach/rant, because most preaching is ranting, although most ranting is rarely preaching) on living for deeper meanings with most religious dogmatic crap or think for yourself.

So you have to choose, continue appealing to the mass of mindless idoits or accept something in its, less then exciting, simplistic form. It's like a math problem, when you dont know how to work it out, its a mystery until someone points out to you the logic in it. Then what is the math problem after you learn how to solve it?

Simple.

Examples of deeper meaning denail crap: Ouija Boards, Tarot cards, Astrology, Palmistry, Horoscopes, and Numerology.

People in terms of masses look to things for a "deeper meaning" and usually are just being swindled into wasting their money.

Now questioning in terms of science is a completely different arena. There is a method to finding answers and results only considered "answers" when they are repeatable with the same results. There is a discipline to the art of questioning that is essential to making such questions productive, and a major part of that discipline is being able to accept the answer you've got and not look for the one you want.




Sven


What would happen if we Questioned Satanism? What conclusions would we come up with?

Are we as Satanists allowed to Question Satanism? Or are we admonished to accepted it as it is written?

If Satanism is a reflection of life, a religion based on life, a commentary of life, and life moves forward and progresses; and life changes for each of us personally even by the day; shouldn't Satanism also progress, change, and move forwards, to accommodate and reflect each of our personal growth? At what point then would Satanism stop being Satanism?

If this is out of context then forgive me.
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#4329 - 02/18/08 11:13 PM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
Sven Offline
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Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 46
I don't think anything would happen if we questioned Satanism, because we Choose Satanism to have some impact in our lives knowing fully what Satanism is/means to you. For me Satanism is the conclusion to many of my questions. Also I think a major part of calling youself a satanist us TO question, with the first and for most goal being, questioning what effects you and rather its outcome would prove to be good or bad.

I think Satanism will become watered down by three things.

The first thing being society watering down and "morally justifying" Satanism to make it socially acceptable.
The second, the increasing number of religiously angsty teenagers trying to be "different," when in many areas different is a trend.
And the third factor will be the CoS and how it works as a business. With the CoS being really nothing more than a business anymore, it has monopolized the name if Satanism and Lavey inorder to make money.
These things will probably lead to an echanced "awareness" of Satanism and more tolerance of it, but i think with renouncing the general norms and morals of socitey as a commonality among satanist it won't be so good as it would initially sound. Causing many Satanist to become disheartened by this new found tolerance.


I think its not the Satanism we should question its the people involved in Satanism that we should question.


Edited by Sven (02/18/08 11:16 PM)
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A poor fool indeed is he who adopts a manner of thinking for others!
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#4510 - 02/24/08 07:51 PM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: Sven]
Nyarlathotep2012 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 16
Loc: Texas
The whole Satanist against Satanist thing is about as ridiculous as how the Christians act. Satanism whether theistic, the version LaVey created, etc etc, is all centered around the same basic principles. There are those that believe Satan exists as an actual entity, those that believe He exists wholly as an archetype or enlightenment and personal development and those that believe He and demons exist as elements of our subconscious mind that we have yet to tap into yet, explaining it as "What makes you think the great Lucifer would appear before you at your behest on your time" or something to that effect. But at the end of the day the core principles remain the same. Yet whatever a person believes in is real to them, yes? If a person honestly and sincerely believes they are in fact summoning and communicating with Lucifer, then are they not? Whether or not this being exists outside of our own minds. And is that not the point of magick and ritual? It creates a theatrical sense, a specific mood. The Rituals in the Satanic Bible are so simple, yet at the same time create such a powerful mindset and space for the individual that these events are very real, and very potent.(I guess it all depends on the person). And if a person honestly believes in something..it's scary the things one could do to them, just based off of the manipulation of what this person believes in. I guess my point is that at the end of the day..nothing is fake, regardless of other peoples experiences, if a person believes in it enough, to them, it is real.
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#4512 - 02/24/08 08:41 PM Re: Satanism, Satanism and Satanism. [Re: Nyarlathotep2012]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
 Originally Posted By: Nyarlathotep2012
I guess my point is that at the end of the day..nothing is fake, regardless of other peoples experiences, if a person believes in it enough, to them, it is real.

So if you tell me you have a robot named Odin living in your closet, and in reality he is commander of the known universe... I should just smile and think what a silly reality you have... One where the paragraph has yet to be discovered...

OK...

~T~
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