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#50420 - 03/03/11 11:53 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: XiaoGui17]
Clicks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 114
Loc: New Orleans
 Originally Posted By: xiaogui17
Anthropologists suggest that rites of passage serve not just for an individual to "prove" his dedication to something, but to trigger the "justification of effort" instinct. Basically, one thinks, "I've put so much into this, it must be worth something."


That is something I had never given any thought to. It makes more sense to me now what effect sacraments have on Catholics. While it doesn't take much effort on the part of the Catholic who undergoes them, it does leave an impression on them which is tied to their efforts to live for their Christ, bolstering their faith further.

I can see a sort of self-initiation into some personal endeavor as a useful working of LBM in ritual. This is something that I may experiment with.

Thank you for offering up that information.
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#50421 - 03/04/11 12:27 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: XiaoGui17]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17
This is a slight tangent, but lemmings don't actually do that. The lemming population is culled by natural predators.


As you could see, the video was about Norwegian lemmings who do indeed occasionally end like this.

D.

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#50424 - 03/04/11 04:17 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Diavolo]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I can see that man in his absurdly conceited existence may find intrinsic value within and around arousing the stimulation of pain and through exposure to unnecessary danger.

Let us not forget that Nature animates life solely for cruelty as we are sentient to the degree that we can conceptualise irony and cruelty. She animates us for the purpose of bringing about active death upon other life whilst culminating our own inevitable passive death. Natures adversary approaches from all sides alpha, omega. Life has no object but to die and find meaning in death, to learn to die and live this way, the order of whether it is us first or last is determined by Chaos. The drive to live facing nature as an adversary.

I'd prefer to have intrinsic meaning in a noble way of life learning to die for purpose.

Still, the scythe smites all. To some this can be honourable, to others meaningless.
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#50425 - 03/04/11 04:29 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: XiaoGui17]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
Anthropologists suggest that rites of passage serve not just for an individual to "prove" his dedication to something, but to trigger the "justification of effort" instinct. Basically, one thinks, "I've put so much into this, it must be worth something." It creates an anxiety that discourages people from quitting, even if their involvement is more of a liability than an asset, because cutting their losses means admitting they did all that for nothing.

It's quite a powerfull idea. Extrapolating it towards our society the same thing happens with money. People actually have given quite an emotional value to goods such as gold and other precious minerals and metals. In reality for the quest of survival it is worth a rats ass and a prehistoric man will probably start to wander why we would wage our lives for a few rocks when there's a field full of meat hopping around. It's the main reason why I quite like CS's posts and views.

It also reminds me of the final passage in Indiana Jones and the last crusade.
 Originally Posted By: Indiana Jones and the last crusade

"INDY and ELSA come forward with the Grail.
The TWO NAZI SOLDIERS are over-awed by the possessors of the Grail. They putdown their guns and kneel."

"INDY kneels by HENRY's side and tilts his head forward and holds the Grail to his lips.
HENRY is too weak to even open his eyes.
HENRY swallows some of the water. Much of it runs down the corners of his mouth. Finally INDY pours the water over the wound and everyone watches in astonishment as the wound and the blood stain disappear before their eyes. The color returns to Henry's face.HENRY's eyes open. The first thing he sees is the Grail and they light up. Then they shift to INDY's face—and they light up even more..."

"NAZI SOLDIERS run forward. SALLAH points a rifle at them."

SALLAH: Drop your guns. Please.
INDY:(to HENRY) Dad, come on. Get to your feet.

"ELSA steps forward and picks up the Grail. She turns to INDY, her face alight with possession of the Grail.
ELSA: We have got it. Come on."

"ELSA steps onto the edge of the Great Seal."

INDY: Elsa! Elsa, don't movel
ELSA: It's ours, Indy. Yours and mine.
INDY: Elsa, don't cross the Seal. The Knight warned us not to take the Grail from here.

"A RUMBLING SOUND IS HEARD and the ground roars and shifts. Dirt falls from the ceiling of the cavern. ELSA falls on the Great Seal. The Grail bounces away from her grasp. She reaches for it and the ground beneath her begins to SPLIT OPEN. ELSA slips into the crevasse. She screams."

"ELSA is hanging perilously in the abyss, with the Grail almost within her reach.As her hands lose their grip, INDY just manages to one of them, he himself sliding forward across the slanted floor."

HENRY: Junior! Junior!

"With her free hand, ELSA is trying to get the Grail. INDY can't save her unless she gives him her free hand. She has to choose."

INDY: Elsa. Elsa don't. Elsa. Elsa.Give me your other hand,honey. I can't hold you.
ELSA:I can reach it. I can reach it...

"Her hand begins to slip from Indy's grasp."

INDY: Elsa! Give me your hand. Give me your other hand!

"ELSA just manages to touch the Grail. In doing so, she has tipped the balance too far—INDY slides down another yard, Elsa loses her grip and falls screaming to her death."

INDY: Elsa!!

"Now the ledge INDY lies upon begins to break apart. HENRY grabs one of his hands as Indy struggles to reach the Grail with the other."

HENRY: Junior, give me your other hand! I can't hold on!!
INDY:I can get it—I can almost reach it, Dad.

"INDY looks down into the black bottomless pit beneath him from which nothing can ever be retrieved."

HENRY: Indiana. Indiana!!

"INDY snaps his look up to his father. His father has never called him this before."

HENRY: ... let it go...

"INDY abandons the Grail and grabs onto HENRY with both hands. HENRY pulls him up to safety.
THE GRAIL KNIGHT looks through the falling debris to INDY and HENRY. SALLAH and BRODY rush from the crumbling Temple."

INDY: Dad. . .

"The GRAIL KNIGHT raises his arm to HENRY."


Edited by Dimitri (03/04/11 04:50 AM)
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#50427 - 03/04/11 12:17 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: XiaoGui17]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17
Anthropologists suggest that rites of passage serve not just for an individual to "prove" his dedication to something, but to trigger the "justification of effort" instinct. Basically, one thinks, "I've put so much into this, it must be worth something." It creates an anxiety that discourages people from quitting, even if their involvement is more of a liability than an asset, because cutting their losses means admitting they did all that for nothing.

I'm not averse to blood or pain, but the idea that someone is trying to trick me into sticking around when I may otherwise leave gives me pause. It's the type of manipulative tactic you see in cults. Cultures that practice initiation rites (whether foreign cultures, street gangs, or fraternities) tend to be dominated by collectivism/groupthink. Part of the reason we see so little of that in mainstream Western culture is because of individualism--the idea that autonomy supersedes duty.

I prefer to think for myself.


I might be wrong but your reply gave me the idea you feel compelled to react to something but the compulsion seems to be stronger than the actual relevance of reaction itself.

The justification of effort made me laugh all way to work today. I see this bushman point a finger at the men of its tribe and tell them; "you're just wanna get me into your cult with this scarification bullshit". It's psy-cho-lo-gy. You want to trap me with this effort."

Do you really think a bushmen is not going to quit his tribe because of the rite of passage ritual? What do you think he is going to do on his own? This is not about proving ones dedication as it is about proving oneself. Many rites of passage are a selection process and in tribes, those that fail or say “no thanks” become outcasts, often not considered men and thus not allowed to get a wife or reproduce.

As such, (modern) initiation can, at times, be regarded as a similar process. It is not about you showing your dedication as much as it is you showing you are worth the time and effort of others, or that you are the right material to begin with.

D.

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#50491 - 03/05/11 06:00 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Diavolo]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1147
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
As you could see, the video was about Norwegian lemmings who do indeed occasionally end like this.

Sure, they occasionally slip and fall when a crowd of lemmings gets close to the edge, but they don't all hurl themselves over deliberately.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I might be wrong but your reply gave me the idea you feel compelled to react to something but the compulsion seems to be stronger than the actual relevance of reaction itself.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying with this sentence.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Do you really think a bushmen is not going to quit his tribe because of the rite of passage ritual? What do you think he is going to do on his own?

When we're talking actual tribal initiation, no. It's not proving he won't leave so much as proving he will maintain tradition. Someone who refuses to undergo an initiation ritual is someone who may get uppity ideas about how things are done.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
This is not about proving ones dedication as it is about proving oneself...It is not about you showing your dedication as much as it is you showing you are worth the time and effort of others, or that you are the right material to begin with.

A person's willingness to conform and/or tolerance for pain is not an accurate gauge of a person's value. This guy has not established his worth:



If I have to endure something in order to be admitted to a group, then the thing I'm doing to prove my worth had better be relevant to what that group does. I'm willing to undergo intense training, take tests of skill, or maintain a certain standard in order to be admitted to a worthwhile group. But when the test is gratuitous/irrelevant, that signals to me it's more a test of loyalty/obedience than worth.

If some guy's willingness to prick his finger and sign his name in blood proves he's the right material, Joy of Satan is brimming with the right material.
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#50514 - 03/06/11 08:07 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: XiaoGui17]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17
Sure, they occasionally slip and fall when a crowd of lemmings gets close to the edge, but they don't all hurl themselves over deliberately.


Of course not, none here is claiming lemmings, after an emotional or rational assessment of the world as is and their role and future in it, decide that the only viable option is heading to the cliffs and jump to their doom.

Often people can't see a metaphor because they're too busy disagreeing.

 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17
When we're talking actual tribal initiation, no. It's not proving he won't leave so much as proving he will maintain tradition. Someone who refuses to undergo an initiation ritual is someone who may get uppity ideas about how things are done.


I think this guy explains it better than I could.

 Quote:
Bite the Bullet

Unlike army ants or leafcutter ants, there is only one genus and one species of bullet ant. But if you're stung by one, you'll never forget it. The Central and South American bullet ants derive their name from the pain of their sting, which victims liken to being gunshot. Or, to put it more colorfully, its sting is "like fire-walking over flaming charcoal with a 3-inch rusty nail in your heel." That's according the Schmidt Sting Pain Index, a scientific scale of insect sting-to-pain ratios, on which the bullet ant ranks the highest. Its sting is thirty times worse than that of a wasp, and can paralyze the affected area for up to 24 hours.

Considering it's got the most painful sting in the Hymenopteran order of bees, wasps, and ants, you might be surprised to know that there are people who actively seek it out in order to be stung. The bullet ant is crucial to the male initiation rites of the Satere-Mawe people of Brazil. After the jump, we'll examine their masochistic rituals, the meaning of manhood in diverse cultures, and how Nature influences it. In other words, the Quantum Biologist is going where he's never gone before: Into the fetid swamps of Sociology.

And boy, is it dark in here.

The Satere-Mawe is a small, isolated tribe in the Brazilian Amazon rainforest, best known to the world for their cultivation of the guarana that now cokes up our energy drinks. They are becoming better known now for their brutal initiation rites. When a generation of boys reaches age 16 or 17, they go to the tree trunks where bullet ants make their nests and collect them. A medicine man drugs the ants with a botanical sedative, and the unconscious ants are then woven into grass mittens with their stingers facing inwards. When the ants come to, they are trapped, and not too happy about it. It's at this point that the initiates stick their hands into the gloves to receive their punishment. Remember: one ant’s sting is like being shot, and there are hundreds of ants woven into the gloves. Initiates must endure the pain for ten minutes without screaming. And lest you think they come out of this excruciating experience a man, think again. They'll have to endure the ritual twenty times before they earn that title.

Yeah, and you had a magician at your bar mitzvah.

When does a boy become a man? The answer for most of us is not so easy. Males simply don't have physical cues to signal the transition, like menarche, nor do we have natural events in our lives that transform us, like childbirth. In our culture of arrested development, in which boys play video games and avoid child-rearing into their thirties, it's not critical that we have a set definition of what makes a man. But in many cultures, it's essential to separate the men from the boys. A rigid definition of manhood keeps the social organization intact, allowing the tribe or city to know who deserves rights and responsibilities. So we invent ceremonies, often very painful ceremonies, to mark the transition. It is true that women also have initiation rites, from harmless quinceañeras to horrific genital mutilation, but male initiation rites are a substitution for a transformation our bodies won't naturally give us. We recreate the pain of childbirth, and so are reborn. But into what?

Spartan boys were beaten and tortured for years, then unleashed on the countryside to hunt and kill slaves. Failure to withstand the pain, or to murder innocents, would result in exile or even execution. Many modern street gangs initiate members in a similar way, though on a smaller scale. Many African tribes, such as the Zulu, practice circumcision with sharpened rocks and cattle dung. If you don't die by infection, congratulations, you're a man. And the most oft-studied male initiation rites are those of the Sambia tribe of Papua New Guinea, which involve years of isolation from womankind, ritual fellatio of the elders, and a sort of mock "menstruation" involving bloodletting from sticks in the nose. The Sambia are world-class misogynists, believing that women are contaminated with evil and subject to a man's every desire or disgust. And here, I think, is where male initiation rites really come in handy: they don't just separate the men from the boys; they separate the men from the women, on both a social and psychological level.

A study of several African cultures revealed interesting insights into the world of male-female relations among the initiated. Researchers tested three cultures with initiation rites and one without on an interesting metric: they questioned them about sympathetic pains during their wife's pregnancies. The theory was that in cultures with less brutal initiations, men would have more androgynous or even feminine characteristics. And indeed, on this metric, only the non-initiating tribe experienced sympathetic pregnancy symptoms in men: morning sickness, food cravings, aches, even psychosomatic labor pains. Mentally, they were more in tune with their women. The men of the initiating tribes showed a major emotional disconnect. In creating the male version of the agony of childbirth, initiates can end up less sympathetic to women, and instead, are elevated to a separate, exclusive subculture with the men of the clan.

What does the bullet ant teach us about human gender relations? You could say they are no more than the firewalk, the paleolithic bris that establish men as a different class from women. But there’s more: the sting of the ants is also the equivalent of the Aboriginal walkabout or the peyote-inspired visions of the Mexican Indians, a spiritual initiation. Among the Satere-Mawe, entering manhood also means entering a realm of spiritual awareness, conferring the ability to track animals and read the forest. Pain is a gateway to the real world, for them. Conveniently, Nature has condensed the essence of pain into a venom that lives in the sting of an ant. The ant is the ferryman, the gatekeeper. Endure it, and you can endure the horror — and splendor — of the world as it is.

The Quantum Biologist - Bite the Bullet


D.

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#51093 - 03/16/11 11:11 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Diavolo]
MindFux Offline
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Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
 Quote:
If I have to endure something in order to be admitted to a group, then the thing I'm doing to prove my worth had better be relevant to what that group does. I'm willing to undergo intense training, take tests of skill, or maintain a certain standard in order to be admitted to a worthwhile group. But when the test is gratuitous/irrelevant, that signals to me it's more a test of loyalty/obedience than worth.


Just to steer us 'topicward' once more:

Well that's entirely the point of the ONA's initiation, and precisely why it doesn't directly involve pricking your finger and signing your name in blood, unless of course one has a penchant to be overly literalistic. The ONA's initiation process as described(can't emphasize that enough) is long and drawn out, and requires the 'initiate' to be tested, and actually take action that further the aims of the ONA on the whole.

According to 'Long' or 'Myatt' depending on what your beliefs are, the esoteric side of the ONA was handed down originally as an 'aural'(SIC) tradition from female mistress to carefully selected individual, with the 'initiation' being conducted as part of a rite with an overreaching purpose of effecting some kind of 'causal' manifestation of an 'acausal' force through the performance thereof. The initiation itself becoming a Nexion of sorts for the required manifestation within the person.

In truth that could all be hogwash, and it really wouldn't matter, because the initiation itself is just a ceremony. The candidate has already (if one of course buys any of the ONA's mythos) been initiated through a series of tests to insure they have sufficient levels of 'Sinister honor' to be considered for real initiation. As 'Anton Long' said just last year when he did a run through and 'updated' many of the MSS of the ONA, it's harder to be an Adept in the ONA than it is to be a special forces soldier, but more on that later. (This claim is doubtful to the extreme, for the record).

The initiate having been tested, to insure their 'Sinister quality' and 'amoral nature' will then go through a quick initiation ceremony. Then they must immediately begin to work through their A, B, Cs, which separate an 'initiate' from a paid up member (once again, according to the MSS).

These A, B, Cs are a series of direct, normally criminal actions, which involve either the doing of, or the inducement in others of the performance of an attack, a sexual assault, a theft, or something similarly counter cultural and violent. The ultimate test being, if you pull it off and you're not in jail, you've passed. The genius of the system is, even if you fail the test and end up in jail, the ONA 'current' has still been advanced by your failure.

Then of course the path of the adept continues on the 'Sevenfold Sinsister Way' (which basically means, seven stages of initiation to true Adept) through a series of grueling physical feats, (cycling 200 miles in 12 hours, hiking over hilly terrain with an average speed of 5 mph for a ridiculous distance) followed by a series of esoteric challenges. The weirdest involves selling everything you own and living as a vagabond in a rural area, removed from everything and everyone you know to seek true insight into the acausal. The fact these all tend to mirror episodes in Myatt's life, I'm sure is purely coincidental ;).

Then of course one must learn the 'Star Game', which in theory is meant to reflect an astrological chart, with the ultimate aim of having your star game end up to match a particular configuration of 'stars' per an astrological chart, through open play. The star game itself resembles the chess board from Star Trek, (which some have pointed out may have been Myatt's original intention) but if one actually tries, especially with a second person, to play the 'advanced star game', one finds that it is possible, but is hellishly difficult to reach such a configuration while following the rules as set out in the Naos. This process of thought and planning is meant to result in deep esoteric understanding of the causal (the star game) vs. the acuasal (innate forces that can manifest within the causal, but exist beyond and without it). Once again, this is a key requirement of the ONA, and so this aspect of the initiation is vital to the 'essence' of the ONA.

Also advocated are 'insight roles' where one takes on the complete beliefs of an 'out of character' system of thought. As 'Long' said in an interview with WSA352, "one of our members became a monk in a Christian monastery for a number of years". The fact he's clearly referencing Myatt, who per his recently published autobiography (still denying he's Long, somewhat comically if you actually read it and see how many words like Wyrd he slips in there), spent a year or two in a monastery. The purpose of these roles is to garner understanding of the mindset of those beliefs so they can be wielded as a weapon.

Other than all being vaguely related to things that Myatt did in his own life (according to his own biography, that is) all of the steps up the 'Seven Fold Sinister Way' have one other thing in common. They are hellishly difficult, but that's not it. They all advance the current. They all serve the ultimate aim of the ONA, which is the creation of an individual in stellar physical condition, who is in direct, physical and violent confrontation with the current political system. A person that in order to have survived all of those steps and avoided prison would have to have 'street smarts' and people manipulation skills up the yazoo. They all teach trade craft. (This is the area that WSA352 concentrates on almost solely by their own admission, with 'magick' playing a smaller part).

Similarly, the need for ritual, and magic, means that the 'esoteric' side of the ONA is advanced also. If, as they lead us to believe, the ONA does believe that ritual does result in a causal manifestation of the acausal, then the very act of practicing these will all result in the desires of the current.

So in a way, XG, the ONA's initiation process, assuming anyone has ever followed it (which I'm somewhat dubious of, but I digress) does all serve the goals of the ONA. It's not just arbitrarily pricking a finger.







Edited by MindFux (03/16/11 11:18 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarification

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#51115 - 03/16/11 05:36 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: MindFux]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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What ONA, above all, provides is a praxis. Of course this praxis is presented into a specific form. In this case, it being the satanic form. But the very praxis this form provides is not limited, nor dependent upon the satanic.

It is a method to transcend, extremely LHP in the old traditional sense of the concept, and as such, of course not without dangers. That everything the "initiate" does, failing or not, contributes towards the aims of the ONA is a much appreciated bonus but I'd say that everything any initiate of the (old) LHP, in whatever form, does will produce similar results. They follow a path that is at conflict with the status quo within and as such, inevitably will conflict with the status quo outside.

When attempting to transcend, one will have to take specific hurdles and some of them lead towards acts which could be considered abnormal or irrational by others. But at times it is a requirement to let go the normalcy and exactly do that which the rational part of us so vehemently objects against.

D.

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#51135 - 03/17/11 12:24 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: MindFux]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
(still denying he's Long, somewhat comically if you actually read it and see how many words like Wyrd he slips in there)


"Causal/Acausal", "Imperium", "Vindex", "Nexion", plus the gratuitous smattering of greek lingo. But hell, if I was well-read enough to translate Sappho, I'd shove it in peoples' faces too. But he seriously needs to learn some CSS or something; every website he makes looks exactly the same.

Many of the "tests" demanded on initiates are in fact things I have been working towards achieving myself-- self-sufficiency, taking on difficult athletic challenges, going on "hermitages" away from urban life, et cetera. Others I see as counter-productive to my own goals, such as deliberate criminality and publicly supporting terrorism.

I could go on another long rant about my various criticisms, but it really wouldn't be relevant. Anton Long is a person who goes his own way and simply doesn't give a shit. He's had two-and-a-half decades experience of doing this, and certainly no shits have been given. He has his own goals and agenda, and myopia/determination to see them through. Despite my personal views, at the end of the day I can't help but admit that the ONA is quite a work of art.

The ONA strikes me not so much as a tradition or a group, but a deeply personal system inextricably bound to the persona of Long/Myatt. I can admire and criticize it as an outsider, but I can never fully experience the ONA simply because I am not Anton Long. Sort of like how Thelema applies most fully to Crowley himself and not his disciples, and the CoS to LaVey, etc.


Edited by The Zebu (03/17/11 12:27 AM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#51147 - 03/17/11 10:50 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: The Zebu]
MindFux Offline
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Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
Zebu, you've hit the nail on the head in my view. It truly is a work of art devised by one man, largely for one man, as a continuing living testament to his worldview and ultimate agenda. Indeed the special place it is afforded in his heart is proven to me by his complete disavowal of it publicly. (Albeit poorly, given everything you just stated, and the fact that the "Numinous Way", is very much the same as the doctrine of the ONA, right down to express mention of Myattisms like 'Homo Hubris', 'causal, acausal' and honour, rather than 'Sinister Honour' even though they are both identical, less the 'Sinister' and of course empathy being the core of it, rather than 'Sinister Empathy'). That isn't to say that the system itself doesn't have any merit. If he'd pulled it off as a counter cultural movement, and had there been those able to follow it in fact, rather than in on-line persona, then it would have had the desired result. There are indeed things that a true individualist can take from it and use, because Myatt is anything if not a man that carved his own path.

As to the method of initiation, D, my point was merely that the ONA's 'initiation' isn't just doing something for the sake of conforming to the group, that doesn't have anything to do with said group's aims. With the ONA (which isn't actually a group, but the concept holds) the initiation forces an initiate to perform difficult acts, yes, but acts that all further the aim of the ONA going forward.

As to culling being a part of that initiation at the upper levels (which it is), that too furthers the groups interests of sowing the seeds of fear and discontent and results in one less 'dishonorable', failure on the streets. Even if the person attempting it, fails, or is caught, and goes to jail, the current is still served and contributed to by the attempted action.

As an aside, I think too much is made of having to associate with 'terrorism' or any other modern heresy. An equally appropriate modern Heresy in this day and age for instance would be subscribing to communism in the US. Anything that forces one into direct and violent cultural conflict is the requirement, but only in the early stages of the initiatory process. At the upper stages all one must do is inspire others to be your hands.



Edited by MindFux (03/17/11 10:52 AM)

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#51151 - 03/17/11 11:54 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: MindFux]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I agree it isn't doing something for the sake of conforming but that everything done is indeed furthering the aims. Those that conform to the group, even if this group is solely a memetic entity, are those who's sacrificial gesture is laughingly accepted.

There is a moment at the LHP when one realizes that above all, one is at war and that one rides a wave which, mythologically described, is the devil waging war on god's creation. One is the devil and makes others serve that very devil one is. At that moment, it follows a quite distinct route compared to popular Satanism.

To give you an example. Some time ago I met this dude who had principles which could be called satanic. He looked at others as a resource to exploit, the dumb are there to benefit the smart, the weak to be exploited by the strong. While the S-word never dropped in our conversations, most of his views and acts could very well be called satanic. But when I learned to know him better, I found out that besides indeed living as such, he at the same time didn't live up to the concept of responsibility. He treated his kid like a piece of shit, even when he didn't physically abuse it. It was not his own but since he married her mother, it should have become his responsibility. So while there was a part of him I could agree with, another part of him showed he had no honor. What one normally does is drop such people and spend their times otherwise.

I didn't and knowing his weaknesses quite well, I started feeding those while never dropping my pose of what he considered a friend. In feeding his weaknesses, he started to neglect more and more responsibilities and it didn't take that long before he lost his job. I carefully closed most doors to other opportunities for him, having the advantage of working in the same fields. And if he found a job, I again fed him. The current status is him being two years without a job and gathering such an amount of debt, he will never get rid of it, and, evidently, a ruined marriage. He is now part of what is called the “marginals” here, that group living off government support killing their time getting drunk on cheap beer.

The difference between him and me was that while he could have indeed been called satanic, I serve the devil.

D.

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#51157 - 03/17/11 01:06 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Diavolo]
MindFux Offline
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Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
I agree that there is a path carved by the ONA that is outside of 'popular Satanism' but I fail to see any such thought in your example. Perhaps because I'm not understanding it. 'The Devil' has a mind and an agenda. What was yours?

So basically, you see some kind of higher aim in destroying a man's life, prevented him ever being in a position to support his kid (which was your original beef with him) and turned him into a 'marginal'. For what purpose? He was doomed anyway. You put another hole in an already sinking boat, that would have been more damaging to the existing current had it continued sailing and sunk publicly as an example of your average human.

Where was your thoughts of responsibility exactly? Your Sinister Honour? To the child growing up with an alcoholic, debt ridden father? To the woman he hurt? By your own perverse system, all you did was further the situation that caused your issue with him in the first place. If that was your stated aim, then great. But I fail to see it.

Don't get me wrong, I have no moral issue with your example, I just see you wasting a lot of time, for the sake of it to fulfill no real purpose or aim other than your own gratification. If gratification was what you were looking for, then fine, but I see no higher service to the 'Devil' innate in your actions. What was your end game? Doing it for the sake of it? To make an example? Or just because you didn't like the guy? Only one of those is in line with the behavior of the ONA, and it's not the one on the right, or the left.

A better example would have been had you encountered a devout priest and/or family man, who was the pillar of his community, despite not being responsible to his kid, and upon testing him and manipulating him, publicly broke him using manipulative techniques to erode the current, and shatter the allusions of the community in a visceral way.

Or if you found someone selling themselves as an example citizen, who was secretly raping babies, and made an example out of them, once again indirectly through manipulation, to further erode the current, and point out the false idols at the head of many 'good' organizations.

Instead, you take a morally bankrupt (which I don't see as a bad thing), irresponsible idiot, and then prevent him being able to raise his kid or actually be responsible (even when seeking work), make him more morally bankrupt and ultimately achieve nothing to erode the current at all, because he fails to live up to your idea of the societal 'rules' for how you should treat a child that's no blood relative to you, based on some weird populist concept. You effectively, if you'll excuse the metaphor, hastened a drug dealers trip to jail. Hardly much of an achievement, and hardly going against the status quo.

No 'meta-complex' was achieved. You just did it for the sake of it, because you could, when an individual like that could have been more damaging to the 'status quo' by being allowed to continue his life as an example of the failings of a society. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with doing things for the sake of them, but that's hardly a good example to pick in the context of the ONA.

Basically, I see what you did as pointless, and fail to see how it served anything other than a perverse sense of justice with regards his failure to measure up to his ideals, while you similarly failed to live up to your own. I fail to see how anything 'individualistic' or 'counter cultural' or 'against the grain' was done? All you did was speed his demise.

No disrespect at all intended here, I just need some clarification on how you feel that fits into the concept of the ONA, or indeed your own concept of 'Satanism'

Mind.







Edited by MindFux (03/17/11 01:11 PM)

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#51160 - 03/17/11 01:37 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: MindFux]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I can't remember suggesting I am ONA, so the question would be "which other agenda would I follow but my own?"

When I go out and mingle, I see much I despise and instead of solely despising it and then retreating to my cave, I find it much more rewarding to actually become involved. To do the work required. Some spent their time trying to help the poor or weak. I prefer to pick those who cross my path, and manage to trigger my interest. Those pretending to be in control but at the same time showing behavior I spit upon. In the grand scheme of things all this might be trivial but one should not focus on long-term result when doing, as much as on the act itself. There is some beauty to it all, and some satisfaction. You consciously exercise or exorcise that what is considered diabolic.

You fail to see that such people are not as much an example to society as they are a product of it. In removing them, or economically castrating, they become a burden to that what produced it. Society is not defined by those who are or are not exemplary. Society is defined by those who take control.

So yes, I do so because I can and that should be all the reason needed.

D.

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#51169 - 03/17/11 03:14 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Diavolo]
MindFux Offline
member


Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 174
Diavolo, I do actually see your point, but you picked a weak target and did something easily within your grasp and then posted it as an example under an ONA thread of the 'style' of Satanism that the ONA practices, when that is in fact not the case. If you read that as me claiming you were ONA, then I apologize, but that wasn't what I was shooting for.

In your example, to change it somewhat, if I see someone I feel to be undesirable, who I dislike, or who behaves in a manner that I don't agree with, I should get a ball bat and beat him to death with it, and then use my guile to escape purely because I can. While the police are cleaning up his body and his relatives are crying, and possibly losing their jobs, and their kids are on welfare, I'm creating a burden on society and so hence it's Satanic because as an indirect consequence of my random action there's some societal pain to be taken.

Here's the rub for me. I can dress that up however I want in mythos, and me identifying with 'evil' and the 'Sinister', but without any overreaching purpose beyond my own capability of completing such an act, all I've done is beat someone down. Anyone for any reason could have beaten someone down in the same way for any number of reasons, equally randomly (for say bumping into them). I'm pissing into the wind. I'm a blip, a nothing. Our society creates more bankrupt jobless people (deserving or otherwise) and more dead bodies than any one person, or group of people could hope to do. Our society is inherently doing that job on its own. One more idiot on welfare, or another corpse on the street isn't advancing anything, whether I do it with deliberate evil intent or otherwise. By your logic, if the burden on society is created anyone being a 'dick' is somewhat Satanic, if they're a 'dick' in a methodical way. To me that doesn't make them the 'devil'. It just makes them an evil person, or 'Devilish', but I require more for the adversary than just random acts of violence, or manipulation on a whim. The ONA does too.

In the ONA ethos, amorality is practiced to devise the best way to make a change to a society, or a situation. Creation of fear, hysteria, panic, violence, adding to a welfare load may be in some way how to do it, but the ONA tends to be more inspiring. Mass societal panic through grand actions. Inspiring bombings, inspiring riots, large acts of revelation around public figures, infiltrating churches to bring down an entire herd, etc, all with one aim in common. To manifest the Numinous dark. To break society to re-make it into a model that will allow human evolution. To cause massive panic, or to cause grand political change. It'll take more than a big welfare check to make that happen. There's nothing needlessly destructive or futile about the ONA's ideas (their execution may be wanting, and more along the lines of what you did in its effectiveness for the stated justification but the ideal is higher than that). The ideal is to re-make the world, by removing the worthless, rewarding the genuinely strong in action and mind, and plowing forward out of a capitalist rut. No part of finding the weakest link and picking on them is involved in their doctrine. In fact that only really comes up when picking an opfer for sacrifice in a ritual, not for picking the target of an assault on the 'Magian' system.

As a result I still don't think your example presences the ONA's overreaching mythological methodology.

Mind.



Edited by MindFux (03/17/11 03:23 PM)

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