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#121250 - 01/14/20 05:46 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: wnasty]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2145
Loc: Poland
I don't have a problem with you too. I just wonder how to get through to you. You are bound by honor to those you care about. Honor is nothing else than simple loyalty to those close to you, the beloved ones. They can be your family or not. What matters is that in troubles they can rely on you and you can rely on them. And then, there is the large group of people who in spite of all their individual characteristics share one thing in common; you don't care about them and neither do they care about you. These are those "mundanes". It doesn't mean they are the worse kind of people. It simply means they aren't close enough to you for you to give a fuck about them. They could as well not exist.

Apart from that, the division between sinister and mundane is a false dichotomy. It amazes me that so many people don't see it. No written code is necessary. Those who uncritically obey an arbitrary set of rules printed on paper are not ONA. Those who print it... they probably are. \:\)
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#121271 - 01/18/20 09:33 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Czereda]
wnasty Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/08/18
Posts: 14
Loc: Finland
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
I don't have a problem with you too. I just wonder how to get through to you. You are bound by honor to those you care about. Honor is nothing else than simple loyalty to those close to you, the beloved ones. They can be your family or not. What matters is that in troubles they can rely on you and you can rely on them. And then, there is the large group of people who in spite of all their individual characteristics share one thing in common; you don't care about them and neither do they care about you. These are those "mundanes". It doesn't mean they are the worse kind of people. It simply means they aren't close enough to you for you to give a fuck about them. They could as well not exist.

Apart from that, the division between sinister and mundane is a false dichotomy. It amazes me that so many people don't see it. No written code is necessary. Those who uncritically obey an arbitrary set of rules printed on paper are not ONA. Those who print it... they probably are. \:\)


I get your point, but I still don't get your argument that it doesn't exist at all. I think the code is more like a blood pact type of thing, so why it couldn't exist? It's not like Santa Claus or pink elephants. You don't like the idea that there's this code written on paper but someone might like it, and live by it. I can't prove that there's people living by that code and you can't prove that there isn't so maybe we should move on. \:\)

What you think about ONA MSS in general?

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#121272 - 01/18/20 09:53 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: wnasty]
samowens84 Online
active member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 724
 Originally Posted By: wnasty
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
I don't have a problem with you too. I just wonder how to get through to you. You are bound by honor to those you care about. Honor is nothing else than simple loyalty to those close to you, the beloved ones. They can be your family or not. What matters is that in troubles they can rely on you and you can rely on them. And then, there is the large group of people who in spite of all their individual characteristics share one thing in common; you don't care about them and neither do they care about you. These are those "mundanes". It doesn't mean they are the worse kind of people. It simply means they aren't close enough to you for you to give a fuck about them. They could as well not exist.

Apart from that, the division between sinister and mundane is a false dichotomy. It amazes me that so many people don't see it. No written code is necessary. Those who uncritically obey an arbitrary set of rules printed on paper are not ONA. Those who print it... they probably are. \:\)


I get your point, but I still don't get your argument that it doesn't exist at all. I think the code is more like a blood pact type of thing, so why it couldn't exist? It's not like Santa Claus or pink elephants. You don't like the idea that there's this code written on paper but someone might like it, and live by it. I can't prove that there's people living by that code and you can't prove that there isn't so maybe we should move on. \:\)

What you think about ONA MSS in general?


I think the "blood pact" thing is childish. Either a person has the character to keep their word and be true to those they love or they don't.

The notion of "ONA" didnt add anything to who I am as a person. And since most I've met who'd claimed to be "in" ONA told me, and this was true in my experience as well, that the "game" plays itself.

I've always strived to be a man of my word and loyal to my family. My inner decision matrix sees issues and acts on information with those values among others in mind.

A blood pact wouldn't add anything to that.

That's a method, for example, how a gypsy would gain a rubes trust. Some elaborate sounding ceremony with bells and whistles to make you feel a part of them to distract from the fact you both know you're not. But the ceremony has the lesser magic affect of making a vulnerable person feel included in something cool.

As a backwards lesser magic affect, if the person on the outside is secure in themselves then to engage in the "pact" to appear vulnerable would be an effective means to con a con, who would have been used to deceiving vulnerable folks and the routine might have caused indifference as a vulnerabity.



Really cool information isn't it?

(Post script: a lot of people "join" these things to feel included, and so often the harsh judgement of "outsiders" is really just a projection of their own insecurities, their own self-hatred for doing so, and tried to escape that uncomfortable fact by distracting the crowd by attempting to abuse someone more vulnerable than themselves. I.e. if a person in one of these "groups" accused you of only being interested to make friends as an excuse to abuse you, then in a manner of speaking that person was advertising their weakness and giving you the blueprint on how to fuck them over. By being more independent than that insecure person one can win over the people that abuser was so desperate to please. Because they likely felt just as vulnerable as that person, and their tendency to abuse is a political weakness that a more kind voice would have more appeal than a person who sought to gain acceptance through displaced abuse.)

That may seem like word salad, but when I meet someone those thoughts appear to me like a nano second and in an extreme survival setting I was quick to act on them.

There.

Some though know their own weaknesses and use them to create a path to do the work they can't.

There are many angles to cleverness.

A persons values is more clearly seen with results and hindsight.

What I find privately annoying is when I actually see this and do good with someone, and that person seemed pathologically determined to act like they're a "mystery" to me in a manner that's insulting.

That person might tend to imagine me judging them for all their shit, when their self pity deliberately kept me at a distance, and when normal friendly affection is pushed away, it naturally caused resentment and bitterness.

A relationship dynamic, not a character flaw.


Edited by samowens84 (01/18/20 10:12 AM)

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#121273 - 01/18/20 11:00 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: samowens84]
wnasty Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/08/18
Posts: 14
Loc: Finland
 Originally Posted By: samowens84

I think the "blood pact" thing is childish. Either a person has the character to keep their word and be true to those they love or they don't.

The notion of "ONA" didnt add anything to who I am as a person. And since most I've met who'd claimed to be "in" ONA told me, and this was true in my experience as well, that the "game" plays itself.

I've always strived to be a man of my word and loyal to my family. My inner decision matrix sees issues and acts on information with those values among others in mind.


Never made a blood pact with anyone so I wouldn't know, but it was just an example. Any kind of oath or vow.

Maybe the Code in ONA mss should be seen the same way as someone reading Satanic Bible the first time and doesn't "convert" to anything but recognizes oneself from the text?

I think the honour aspect is important since there ain't too much honour in the world, it can't be taken for granted as far as I've experienced and dealt with people (or "mundane" if you will).

And I don't get how anyone could be "in ONA", as far as I understand it's not possible. So I wouldn't believe anything a "member of ONA" would say.

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#121274 - 01/18/20 11:10 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: wnasty]
samowens84 Online
active member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 724
I never liked vows. In my experience in the past it was easier to make the path more clearly defined so that the structure of work made everyone equal so that vows, oaths, or other dramatic displays of "faith" unnecessary because the path was clearly defined and accountability easy to understand and the destination clear to everyone.

Faith and oaths tend to be vulnerable to bribes and divisive mistrust tactics.

An equal voice and clear path solves that problem. Because clarity is always more preferable than confusion, no matter how much more "comfortable" that confusion may seem. And having a voice is always more preferable than not having one. And so clarity is always more comfortable than confusion, because the path is more clearly defined with no anxiety about where it's going, Which is the insumerountable weakness of comfortable confusion. The psychology is found in avoidance. If you procrastinate a task like research the anxiety and lack of understanding is more tormenting than the difficulty of the task. But when a task is confronted honestly anxiety disappears even if it meant sitting at a desk for 12 hours working on a 20 page paper instead of laying comfortable in bed because the way forward is more clear.

That's the psychology.



That's a method superior to oaths. An equality amongst soldiers.

That's the way of Achilles.


Edited by samowens84 (01/18/20 11:17 AM)

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#121276 - 01/18/20 11:24 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: samowens84]
wnasty Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/08/18
Posts: 14
Loc: Finland
 Originally Posted By: samowens84

An equality amongst soldiers.


I like how you put it.

But isn't the Kindred Code one form of "equality amongst soldiers", honour within the group walking similar path?

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#121277 - 01/18/20 11:59 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: wnasty]
samowens84 Online
active member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 724
If it were, it would only add confusion to a topic already clearly defined in me, as well as the title and suggestive nature of "pre existing ideas" that would imply an authority and sense of "ownership" of an idea.

Sometimes with people there are those who are capable of thinking good ideas, and those with quality of character who inspire people with courage and example.

The problem for the thinker is that they often were jealous of the credit that the doer tends to receive.

Agamamemnon may covet the glory that Achilles gains from leadership, but that's just not his nitch.

A thinker tends to receive glory from thinkers, and doers tend to receive glory from doers.

A soldier on the field and sees his or her potential in Achilles.

A scientist may look up and see his or her potential in Albert Einstein.

But its unnatural for Einstein to covet the glory of Doc Holiday.

The audience and arenas are different.

People admire those they most closely resemble and aspire to be.

But as far as equality amongst soldiers is concerned, the dependable nature of love in the universe is the most fair arbiter for differences.

And should you get the glory if you thought of it first, or should I get the glory if I did it first?

And honestly I'm not sure if its glory that's envied, or that some privileged knowledge only comes from experience, and that's the real dilemma of the thinking scientist.

That leap of experience is what's required, and the anxiety whether you lack that courage. And the potential secret fear if lacking that courage meant that the unequal distribution of glory is actually deserved.



An interesting existential dilemma isn't it?

A very simple thought "matrix" can simplify the equation for easier understanding.

Only two decisions can bring resolution to that anxiety such a person may be feeling.

To either accept that person lacks that courage, or to embrace the challenge.

To accept a limitation, or to not accept a limitation.

One provides catharsis without action.

One brings catharsis through action.

They both provide psychological satisfaction because in each case the person deciding has the satisfaction of making the decision.

A.) The former decision potentially adds anxiety because although decision is made first hand, the intelligent decision maker would still seem likely to feel empty because the lack of resolution that understands intuitively that the lack of data that only comes from action would be missing.

And so lack of action towards understanding would have to be redirected towards another task that precludes learning anything more on a subject that would require a personal risk they would have decided they were unwilling to take.

Hence potential identity crisis likely to accompany lack of resolution for a human being who had prided themselves on pushing their boundaries to learn more about themselves and the universe.

Hence further complications towards thought resolution.

B.)If action were taken with courage, then immediate knowledge given that feeds clarity that provided immediate data and an immediate next step.

That's really what seems to define each choice in pathways of anxiety and resolution.

It doesn't mean B were always superior to A. Other considerations like values and potential consequences matter as well.

But also there's the understanding of potential identity crisis C: A preexisting identity crisis of a thinker trying to be a doer.

The meta anxiety of trying to be something your not could also be the reason for your inability to make decisions as well.

I do what I do because who I am comes naturally to me, and the rewards for being me come naturally to me also.

But if you look at the rewards that come from being me, and only wish you had those benefits and then try to be me, then you'd cheat yourself out of the natural rewards that come from being you, and you can't have the natural rewards that come from being me, because you're not me.

You may have personality similarities. But you didnt have my parents. You didnt go to the same schools. And you didnt grow up with the same people.

We may share every value, and have near identical personalities. But there's always that secret vulnerability that comes from the fact that only you've walked in your own shoes.

That means there's an insecurity or fear or vulnerability that deserves a kind of sacred compassion that even a near twin like me can't understand, and it would be insulting to even try.

That's a part of you only you can decide to miss out on, or include yourself in.


No group, cause, or friend can fill that void.

The human side only you can love, care and nurture.

A person might feel empty if they lack that skill and try to constantly be close to someone who has that.

If you feel empty when that someone is distant and fulfilled when that someone is close, then that's probably your issue.

But not all the time.

I feel human beings are meant for relationships to some degree. But without that missing piece in place, every relationship you had would reflect that lack, and if one person in the whole world saw that and "gets you," then how you respond is a choice as well.

You can learn to be by yourself for a while and build your authenticity to create more authentic relationships, or you can follow that understanding friend like a puppy dog.

And to not seem so holier than though, I still sometimes feel like I got a bit of puppy dog in me. That comes from my high school days. But it's more of an echo than a defining feature.

You can be a bit more kind to yourself.

That's all I'm saying.


Edited by samowens84 (01/18/20 12:50 PM)

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#121278 - 01/18/20 12:52 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: samowens84]
wnasty Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/08/18
Posts: 14
Loc: Finland
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
If it were, it would only add confusion to a topic already clearly defined in me, as well as the title and suggestive nature of "pre existing ideas" that would imply an authority and sense of "ownership" of an idea.


Then you don't need it. But someone who hasn't thought the idea all the way through but has sense or quality (of honour in this case) maybe reading about the idea starts a contemplation process which leads to clearly defined personal ideology on the subject.

 Originally Posted By: samowens84


Sometimes with people there are those who are capable of thinking good ideas, and those with quality of character who inspire people with courage and example.

The problem for the thinker is that they often were jealous of the credit that the doer tends to receive.


And the doer may be jealous of the "intellectual" for thinking and analyzing the idea first. Why not be both thinker and doer, regardless of if someone already thought about it and it's been done? No jealousy there, and personal gain is doubled.

 Originally Posted By: samowens84

And should you get the glory if you thought of it first, or should I get the glory if I did it first?


I think you should get the glory for doing it first, and I should get the glory thinking it first. \:D It's best to do them both, and not think about if someone else did it already (it was surely done before). So I see "glory" as a personal thing.

 Originally Posted By: samowens84

And honestly I'm not sure if its glory that's envied, or that some privileged knowledge only comes from experience, and that's the real dilemma of the thinking scientist.


They should spend half of day thinking and other half experiencing.

 Originally Posted By: samowens84
An interesting existential dilemma isn't it?


It is interesting, cheers.

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#121280 - 01/18/20 04:01 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: wnasty]
samowens84 Online
active member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 724
It's not so much a question of ideology, but something personal.

Things like resentment, jealousy, and other "negative emotions tend to signal for me when something is missing in me.




For example, if I responded as such it could be interpreted as jealousy, or it could be interpreted as me missing someone and pragmatically the sooner they got themselves together they might be more available as a friend.

My motive in this case is irrelevant to how effective I might be in how that turns out, but it did inspire me to be more caring and to trigger personal awareness on what someone I consider a friend might need. That sense of satisfaction allows me to not be led around by my more base id motives.

An end planned is a pivot point of transcendence from darkness to light with personal survival and personal values still intact.

I've learned to not be ashamed of admitting if I feel a sense of lack. If properly channeled and if I own my own sense of hunger, then it can be an infinite source of strength.

I can channel that infinite source into healing, friendship, prosperity or any other personal value and that infinite source of hunger can become an infinite source of love if I choose.

Hope you're having a good day.


Edited by samowens84 (01/18/20 04:03 PM)

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#121281 - 01/18/20 04:07 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: wnasty]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2145
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: wnasty

Maybe the Code in ONA mss should be seen the same way as someone reading Satanic Bible the first time and doesn't "convert" to anything but recognizes oneself from the text?

I think the honour aspect is important since there ain't too much honour in the world, it can't be taken for granted as far as I've experienced and dealt with people (or "mundane" if you will).


You're talking about honor as if it was something clearly defined. What is honor exactly? How is it different from morality? Or does it just sound more cool than morality? From what I have seen, honor is a buzz word that has been thrown around this forum since 2011, if not earlier, usually by the members, ONA or not, who became butthurt that other people didn't fulfill their social expectations or failed to meet their imaginary moral standards.

If honor is meant to be a quality of character, if it's supposed to be personal and subjective, then it's pretty meaningless. Because you can't expect others to act according to your view of honor if theirs is different. In the real world, outside of this forum and others attended by ONA fans, you will hardly meet anyone talking about honor. It exists mainly in tribal societies as a reminiscent of ancient laws (very pedantic and often silly or brutal ones) long replaced by the modern legal system.

Now, in the Satanic Bible, there is something along these lines: Don't expect others to act according to your views. Instead, treat them in the same way they treat you. Sounds more realistic than expecting people to be "honorable" whatever the hell that means.
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Crazy Cat Lady

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#121283 - 01/18/20 04:36 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Czereda]
aeon6 Offline
member


Registered: 04/16/18
Posts: 356
Loc: KÝbenhavn, Denmark
"Don't expect others to act according to your views".
And yet we have scorn for them when they don't. Shouldn't it be so predictable as to cause whiplash from not expecting the obvious? It's an inverse principle.

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#121287 - 01/19/20 06:29 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Czereda]
wnasty Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/08/18
Posts: 14
Loc: Finland
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
 Originally Posted By: wnasty

Maybe the Code in ONA mss should be seen the same way as someone reading Satanic Bible the first time and doesn't "convert" to anything but recognizes oneself from the text?

I think the honour aspect is important since there ain't too much honour in the world, it can't be taken for granted as far as I've experienced and dealt with people (or "mundane" if you will).


You're talking about honor as if it was something clearly defined. What is honor exactly? How is it different from morality? Or does it just sound more cool than morality? From what I have seen, honor is a buzz word that has been thrown around this forum since 2011, if not earlier, usually by the members, ONA or not, who became butthurt that other people didn't fulfill their social expectations or failed to meet their imaginary moral standards.


I see morality as completely subjective, and honour is more objective. Either you get it or you don't, but it's not synonymous with morality. I see people getting butthurt just when someone mentions honour, usually people lacking it themselves. They see it as a threat or something like that.

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#121289 - 01/19/20 07:21 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: wnasty]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2145
Loc: Poland
"Either you get it or you don't" is not an argument. Whether you talk about morality or honor, you (the general you) operate on the level of pure abstraction. What if I told you that the so-called honor killings and throwing acid in a woman's face is an honorable thing to do? Would you disagree? Many Muslims have that twisted code of honor. If it is objective, who is to decide which actions are honorable and which are not? Among many codes of honor, which one is correct?
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Crazy Cat Lady

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#121290 - 01/20/20 04:19 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: wnasty]
CanisMachina42 Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1651
Loc: Ca
 Quote:
I see morality as completely subjective, and honour is more objective. Either you get it or you don't, but it's not synonymous with morality


Fairly easy to understand, but sometimes folk need an analogy. And you can use only 4 words to do so. How does honor trump morality?

Stand your ground laws.

With the laws being a reflection of the innate ways of animal territory defense. Most mammals exhibit the proto tendency in the form of a Lucifer principle casted societies. Betas only challenge alphas if they want to lead or be banished from the society.

Like how a resident of the US state(s) of Texas, Florida, Arizona, and a few dozen others, can legally kill a person trying to steal their car in defense of property.  Killing is less important than the violation of personal space that lead to it.

Honor bestows provenance to private possession. And has so long before there were laws or even language to spell it out.

** And why is it every time someone rightly says "you either get it or you don't", there is some scientologist-like auditor comment to tell the person (in so many words) they are imagining it?
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Spiritual : Abstraction ::

D. Scientific : Quod erat demonstrandum

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#121291 - 01/20/20 06:35 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Czereda]
wnasty Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/08/18
Posts: 14
Loc: Finland
So what if it wasn't an argument?

I'm not interested discussing abrahamic religions and their bloopers, thank you very much. I'm past that. But you have fun.


Edited by wnasty (01/20/20 06:35 AM)

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