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#41510 - 08/06/10 06:52 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Jake999]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Whatever happens, it will all turn out bad.
Theses are people who still believe in stoning women to death.
Think all women are chattel, and being gay is punishable by death.
They celebrated when the towers came down.

You want religious freedom, fine. Build the fucker a little distance away from the towers site. Show some taste, class, and respect for the community of dead Americans. After all you live in America now, and by default you are American's. Act like it.
You come to our country, accept our laws, and our culture. If you want Sharia law stay in the middle east.

You can't have it both ways, being protected by the Constitution, then pissing on it when you don't like the rest of what it says.

M
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
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#41512 - 08/06/10 08:51 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Morgan]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1147
Loc: Amarillo, TX
Even the supposedly liberal, tolerant Muslims have some issues. Muzzammil Hassan was the founder of Bridges TV, a network founded shortly after September 11 with the intention of counteracting violent stereotypes of Muslims. The show was canceled after he beheaded his wife.

Facepalm does not even begin to describe my reaction. You couldn't make this shit up. The Onion could never dream of a soundbite that ironic.
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#41514 - 08/06/10 09:45 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
If I might borrow a quote from Stan Lee: "with great power comes great responsibility."

Do they have the right to build the thing where they want to build it? Indeed, it appears that they do. Jake is right, if it's a matter of legality and if it passes all attached legal criteria, then we as supporters of the constitution should also support the right for them to build the damn thing, even if it is a stick in the eye.

The underlying question is not one of *can* they build it, it's a question of *should* they build it. Personally speaking, I can't think of a reason that's not suspect for them to choose that particular location. It's to be a 13 storey monument to insensitivity IMHO, and I believe the motivation for doing this is precisely to underscore the idea that islam scored a victory by toppling a financial center and replacing it with a place of worship.

As Dennis Miller alludes to, I hope it's as noisy and uncomfortable for them as possible.
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#41515 - 08/06/10 10:28 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
I must say, as an American Patriot who actually believes in all of that stuff I swore to uphold and defend, I am a bit flattered that our European friends also hold our founding documents in such high regard.

For years the Left in this country would engage in 'peaceful' protest (Freedom of Assembly and the Right to Petition the Government for Redress of Grievance) by throwing urine, stool, used tampons and all sorts of other thing. The anti-globalists routinely destroy and vandalize McDonalds.

So, I see no reason why a some simple littering with pork products would not be completely consistent with our nation values.

Of course, those Lefties may really be on to something. The blood of menstruation is horrifying to Muslim men. It is from a woman (and we know how they feel about 'them') and it is blood which is Haram (unclean/forbidden/anti-Islamic). Imagine the shock and horror of finding a big used Kotex on their front stoop! "Oops, sorry. It must have fallen out. You know how dirty we women are."
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#41516 - 08/06/10 10:57 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fist]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
The Muslims do have every right to build the mosque there, the First Amendment guarantees it. Just like Volksfront has every right to preach their racist/sexist/anti-semetic/homophobic values, the First Amendment guarantees that as well. However, the First Amendment does not guarantee that they won't get punched in the mouth if I don't like what they have to say.

The point being that while the Muslims can build a mosque wherever they want they should at least be a little smarter when picking the location.
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#41518 - 08/06/10 12:50 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1753
Loc: New York
On one hand I agree with Jake’s point. But there is something I find very wrong with his idea as well, that I just can’t quite put my finger on.

Isn’t the Constitution there for the citizens of the United States, for those who believe in it?

Does the Constitution protect those individuals who do not believe in it and seek to destroy it? Should a religion that is so anti personal freedom as Islam is, and one that evidently has no respect for the ideology behind the constitution, still deserve its protection and consideration?

What if Muslims were able to buy the site of the World Trade Center, and decided to build the worlds tallest Mosque on the site? Theoretically they would be within their rights to do that as well.

Then again, there are Muslims in the U.S military who theoretically would lay down their lives for the constitution.

I am totally torn between the two view points here, and cannot decide if my utmost respect for the U.S Constitution outweighs my utmost hate for Islam.

I do believe that although the Constitution does protect Islam’s right to exist, Islam in turn will destroy the Constitution which protects it, if given the opportunity.

My gut tells me, “Fuck Islam and their rights to religion, for it seeks to destroy MY rights.”
Reason tells me, “The land in question is owned by Muslims, and if I truly believe in freedom, let them have their way, because freedom is more important then patriotism and ego.”

It seems to me that the price of freedom is allowing it to be destroyed by those who don’t even respect it. That’s a big fucking price to pay.

An interesting and perhaps appropriate example of how things are going, is that on the bottom of my screen on the 600 club, there is an advertisement for “Muslim Singles,” and as I write this, there are about a dozen Muslim women with sheets on their heads smiling at me.
I want to vomit!!
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"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#41533 - 08/06/10 08:08 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Asmedious]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1147
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
My gut tells me, “Fuck Islam and their rights to religion, for it seeks to destroy MY rights.”
Reason tells me, “The land in question is owned by Muslims, and if I truly believe in freedom, let them have their way, because freedom is more important then patriotism and ego.”


They have the right to practice their religion and, as pointed out by several, others have the right to have a cookout next door featuring bacon, pork sausage, BBQ ribs, ham hocks, and plenty of booze. I see your freedom of religion and raise you freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and the Ninth Amendment right to eat meat that is not halal.

One person's freedom ends where it starts to interfere with another's freedom. The second somebody starts talking Sharia law, they've overstepped their rights. Until then, nobody has the right not to be offended, but we all have the right to offend. So we return the favor.
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#41534 - 08/06/10 08:11 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
The U.S. Constitution is a glorious political document. It is also, like every other glorious political document in history, enshrined and invoked when it is convenient and ignored/ reinterpreted when it is not. That's what power-politics is all about.

The Islamic religion did not destroy the World Trade Center any more than the Christian religion destroyed Hiroshima, Guernica, or Dresden. People did, for political reasons. If you want to characterize those actions as "criminal" instead of "legitimately political", you can make that decision as at Nuremberg; but always the victors just judge the vanquished.

Satanists are supposed to know better, think better, and do better than this.

In the eyes of the Christian West, does Islam oppress women? Sure. Now ask a Muslim what he thinks about the plight of Western women. He will say, "It's impossible for a Western woman to get anywhere in life unless she dresses, paints herself up, starves herself, surgically modifies her body, and behaves like a whore. Successful ones in business have to sleep, trick, entice, and deceive their way to the top. Women who just wish a marriage and children find that marriages are endable on whim, children are abandoned or used as bargaining-chips, elder family members are warehoused out of sight, and a loyal wife's fading beauty is jettisoned for a 'trophy' replacement or mistress. Want to see how dangerous it is to be a woman in the USA? Go here."

Once again the cold, hard truth is that men habitually, routinely, and carelessly oppress women in every culture, in every religion, all around the globe. Women endure this, do their best to work around it, because that's all they can do. But it's a lousy, cruel, stacked deck; and it's been dealt them all through history [with two exceptions: ancient Crete and ancient Egypt, in which the sexes were equally respected and empowered].

By the way, what religious fanatics were trying to frame, imprison, and exterminate all Satanists, witches, and neopagans in the West in the 1980s? I don't recall a single Muslim or Islamic organization in that lynch-mob.
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#41538 - 08/06/10 08:32 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1147
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Once again the cold, hard truth is that men habitually, routinely, and carelessly oppress women in every culture, in every religion, all around the globe. Women endure this, do their best to work around it, because that's all they can do. But it's a lousy, cruel stacked deck; and it's been dealt them all through history [with two exceptions: ancient Crete and ancient Egypt, in which the sexes were equally respected and empowered].


I know feminists will eat me alive for saying this, but the vast majority of oppression of women is self-inflicted. Female genital mutilation is a practice that is arranged, performed, and perpetuated by women, even if men object to it. Mauritanian gavage is done by the women in the family, to the girls. Many of the strongest advocates of the veil in the Middle East are women. The allegedly "cruel" practice of tightlacing in the Victorian & Edwardian eras was largely advocated by women and shunned by men. As for those horrible things women are being made to wear, from high heels to lipstick to short little skirts... those are self inflicted. And forgive me for being blunt, but perhaps domestic violence would get a lot lower if battered women would stop returning home and putting up with it time and time again.

Most women do these things to themselves, their sisters, their peers, or their daughters. Our urge to 'rescue' them makes us uncomfortable with 'blaming the victim,' but the fact is that both women and men are only being "oppressed" as much as they are willing to take it. Unfortunately, some individual women are innocent victims of phenomena that are out of their individual control. Even then, it's usually other women, not men, who are inflicting the oppression.
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#41551 - 08/07/10 02:21 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1753
Loc: New York
I attack Islam because to be frank it fills me with dread. I’m not talking about fearing terrorist attacks, but what will happen once we open the flood gates and there is no turning back?

I’m concerned that if we give them an inch, they will want the whole mile, and will in time have enough political power to get it. It seems to me that this is what is going on in many parts of Europe.

Does anyone truly believe that once they have Mosque’s all over the place, and Muslims take over a neighborhood or an area, that they are not going to demand the right to shout the call for prayer five times a day? They would have a good argument too, since some churche’s bells toll every hour for the time of day.
(LOL, soon as I wrote that last sentence, I just heard the church bell near my apartment ring twice, for two AM, which I don’t mind at all to be honest.)

I’m imagining them pushing for laws, and winning them so that any kind of adult material in the area that they are located in would be banned. Maybe even on the internet. It’s not that I’m a porn fiend per say, but I don’t appreciate anyone trying to tell me what I can and cannot view.
If you think that this is far fetched and paranoia, I believe that one of the ways that New York city was able to clean up 42nd street was by passing zoning laws which restricted places of adult entertainment being allowed near schools (which is reasonable) But they were not allowed near churches either, even though those adult places were there for many years. They might have even been there first.


I do wonder sometimes what kind of a stir it would cause if someone with considerable amount of resources attempted to build an actual Satanic Church near “regular” churches, masques and temples. It wouldn’t surprise me if local zoning laws weren’t changed to disallow certain colors, and building types that “didn’t fit” the general acceptable look of the particular neighborhood.
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#41567 - 08/07/10 04:54 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Asmedious]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
It's a slippery slope, and the Muslims that are pushing their agenda, such as the imam behind the NY mosque we're discussing, know this and are using our own laws against us in the name of "peace".

The argument that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world is a bit of a misnomer, because it implies that it is attracting more converts, when in reality it is simply a matter of Muslims producing more children who are raised in the faith.

Those who say the backlash is ludicrous, and who try to draw parallels between Muslims and, say, the illegal Mexicans sneaking into this country, are missing a key point. Mexicans (aside from those running drugs and weapons) are pretty laid back, just want to raise families and have a decent life. They may not integrate fully into American society, but they're not out to push Catholicism on the rest of us.

Muslims on the other hand, DO have an agenda. Not all of them, to be sure. The majority of them in this country are nice people who have similar goals as the average American, to have a good job, send their kids to a good school, own a nice house and car, all that jazz. It's their faith that creeps on us, and their religious leaders are the ones pushing the limits of our tolerance. And they know they can get away with it, because of our First Amendment and how dearly we hold our Constitution and what it stands for.

You don't see Mexican padres setting up churches in New Mexico and on one hand, encouraging the congregation to be good neighbors and citizens, and on the other hand, saying that America deserves to be brought to her knees because of her sinful ways and for stealing Mexican territory 150 years ago.

Just sayin'.
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#41594 - 08/08/10 02:06 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Nemesis]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
(General reply)

The Muslims are doing this all over the world, not just here. And the fact that - if we chose to look outside our own small personal bubbles of existence - we could learn a lot by observing what Europe has gone, is going, and will go through by attempting to be so tolerant of their religion and the laws that ride in on the back of that religion...to me, it just makes sense that we fight this. Upholding our constitution is one thing, but America was built on the fact that we don't tolerate shit we don't want to tolerate. We didn't tolerate British religious restrictions, we didn't tolerate their tariffs and imposing their will on us from 4000 miles away, we didn't tolerate natives skankin' around in nothing but a loincloth, and at one point, we didn't even tolerate ourowndamnselves.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Obama is SO MUCH MORE Muslim-sympathetic than we even know right now, and ditto the rest of the powers that be...but that doesn't mean that the common man can't employ any or all of the tactics that have already been mentioned above to disgust them into leaving.

Stir them up, I say. Show them that they are not welcome. Look at all the shit that Europe is going through. It makes all our little bullshit with Mexicans marching around demanding that we learn Spanish look like a sunny day in the park.

It's a cryin' damn shame that the entire nation is all talk and no walk...we don't HAVE to tolerate this shit. It is a slap in the face, we all know it. It's a nose-thumb, a backroom chuckle, et al., but we choose to ignore it and justify it by citing our own founding documents.

Beh. Where are the National Socialists when you need them?

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#41614 - 08/08/10 05:54 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: ceruleansteel]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
Beh. Where are the National Socialists when you need them?

Being locked up by the reason of "spreading hate messages" when some consider and organise a gathering with music and places to discuss the ideas. While on the other hand Muslims are spreading death-treaties towards important political persons, but hey that's not really spreading hate ey?

I'm fed up with the current attitude coming from both political grounds as ideas being learned in schools concerning this issue. While it is being implied everyone has an opinion of his/her own, it is also being pushed in a certain direction.
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#41620 - 08/08/10 08:58 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dimitri]
TV is God Moderator Offline
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member


Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
I learn ever so slightly toward the building of the mosque for a few reason.

I can't see any legal right anyone has to say somebody can't build something because it's going to be used for idiots to pray in. Christians and jews would spread the same doctrine of "my faith or die" just as quick in the same circumstances. Islam has become such a boogeyman. It's just like the black folks were going to destroy the neighborhood, the mexicans were going to take our jobs, and now the muslims are going to take away our "way of life." You know what? The neighborhood still stands and I've seen plenty of lazy white people keeping their jobs.

I don't see the suicide bombers in the streets any time soon. And so what if they are? They'll be targeting political and business areas in populated cities I'm nowhere near. Enjoy the show I say. I live in a little town in nowhere. I don't care if some stranger gets blown to bits. I don't feel sad or angry just because we happen to live in the same landmass. I've never been one to root for the home team.

Pretty much echoing what 6 says, I don't really care much about 9/11 except that I found it an interesting and amusing. I like disasters because they're fun to watch. So for that reason I liked 9/11. And this is the reason I lean toward building the mosque. I like seeing people pissed off and freaked out.

Living in an area where tornadoes are known to hit I've noticed how freaked out anybody that's not from around here gets at the slightest hint of a storm. I love seeing these people freaking out. I can't wait to see people freak out about suicide bombers.

If there's anybody to be scared of it's the conspiracy nut warriors for christ with sheds full of firearms that think the antichrist Obama is going to start eating their children. They're right in our back yard, have guns legally, and every bit as psycho as a terrorist.

But oh how I forgot the glorious great white christian nation we have and I wouldn't want any evil brown people to steal our perfect paradise from us. God Bless America!

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#41622 - 08/08/10 10:06 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: TV is God]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
You know what, fuck you.

If it doesn't mean shit to you then shut the fuck up.
Yeah, some one is going to ride my ass for telling people to shut up, but I am tired of ignorance and stupidity for the sake of being cool. You are not cool.

I live in New York City. I saw the towers go down. I go stuck on the subway when they locked down Manhattan and stopped all the trains from running. My now ex-brother-in-law put the new tiles down in the lobby after the first bombing at the towers. Some of my friends who were there are still kinda traumatized after walking around covered in dust from the buildings and from the burned up people who might have been their dead co-workers. I still remember the smell the city had after the bombings and buildings went down. I know how the city and people changed after that happened. It fucked up seeing army guys in cammos walking around with M16's and other big guns all the time. Granted they are not all over like they used to be, but they are still a big presence. The city changed, and the people changed after that shit went down.

This is more than a religion or a first amendment thing.
This is about building a mosque next to the site where they feel they destroyed the physical representation of the evil that America stands for.

They are using the Constitution to destroy the very things that it represents.

Yes, we have crazy white people with guns who are religious fundamentalists. Then we get shit like Waco, ruby ridge and the federal building that Timothy McVey bombed, oh and the IRS building that some guy flew a small plane into. The difference is, they are not looking to kill everyone or change the major way of life for everyone in this country. They tend to focus on smaller things that are more ego driven. Yes, they are dangerous too.

The Mexican's and Blacks are not looking to bomb this country and turn it into some Sharia loving version of Iran. They want the old fake American dream, good schools, nice home, 2 cars, big titted women, and money to burn.

Its going to turn out bad,and that's all there is to it.
Afterwards, the politicians are just going to cry "I didn't know, I didn't think" because money bought their asses.

So sit home, laugh and watch the news on your tv. It's not real to you anyway.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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