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#41753 - 08/10/10 11:53 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
... do you think the government collective uses the media as a means to sway public opinion?

Not in a formal sense, as in Goebbels' Ministry of Propaganda, of course. There is nothing like a domestic "Department of Public Information", though of course many governmental & private sector institutions have "public affairs" or "public information" offices/officers to disseminate information favorable to them and spin/deny what is not.

After WW2 and its propaganda excesses, Congress passed the Smith Mundt Act, which prohibits the US government propagandizing American citizens. Hence while the Voice of America, for example, could be broadcast overseas by the ICA/USIA/USIS, it could not be broadcast within this country.

During my active government career (68-94), Smith Mundt was gospel in DoD PSYOP. A PSYOP unit printing plant could not even be used to reproduce recruiting posters for local military recruiting stations.

I don't think I will comment here on Smith Mundt post-9/11.
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#41757 - 08/11/10 04:21 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Nemesis]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis


The argument that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world is a bit of a misnomer, because it implies that it is attracting more converts, when in reality it is simply a matter of Muslims producing more children who are raised in the faith.


As opposed to Catholics?
2,1 billion Xians around.
1,5 billion Moslems.

IMO this has more to do with poverty and social issues.
Not a devious master plan with the intent of flooding the globe with systematically over-breeding true believers.

Education will drop the number of births.
Always does (except in orthodox sects).

When talking about over-breeding, the mind jumps readily over to over-reaction...
The need to generalize the followers of Islam (an extremely diverse group of people) into "THEM"; the enemy of "US", never seize to amaze me.

Sure; there is a storm coming.
And a bloody battle it will be.

Where do the enlightened Satanist stand?
Safely within secular Xianity?
Closet Xians?
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Woland

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#41759 - 08/11/10 05:05 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fist]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Fist

Of course, those Lefties may really be on to something. The blood of menstruation is horrifying to Muslim men. It is from a woman (and we know how they feel about 'them') and it is blood which is Haram (unclean/forbidden/anti-Islamic). Imagine the shock and horror of finding a big used Kotex on their front stoop! "Oops, sorry. It must have fallen out. You know how dirty we women are."



Or one could take the gay and merry approach...

Felicitations!
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Woland

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#41770 - 08/11/10 08:09 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Woland]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean its the "right" thing to do.

There are now bus ads up questioning why.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas...arketplace.html

All this doesn't matter, the mosque building is going to be built with money raised from Muslims overseas, and with American workers.
Irony at its best.

Morgan

ps...

Looks like we are already in bed with him.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38653657/ns/politics-more_politics/


Edited by Morgan (08/11/10 08:35 AM)
Edit Reason: added ps
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#41786 - 08/11/10 01:08 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Woland]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1146
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Woland
Or one could take the gay and merry approach...

Felicitations!


Article: "If you want to be treated fairly, you should treat others fairly as well."

Brilliant. I imagine that will function about as well as a BBQ restaurant next door. It's kind of calling their bluff on this all being about "outreach." It's a dare: "OK, reach out to this."
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#41789 - 08/11/10 01:34 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Morgan]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Morgan


There are now bus ads up questioning why.





I especially like this catchy tune.
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Woland

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#41796 - 08/11/10 06:05 PM "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Fnord]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
... Guys like Jim Marrs have been shouting about a government/press collusive effort to fool Americans for a long time (JFK forward) but he comes across as a bit zany at times. Michael Moore also tries to make the link but never quite gets there successfully, though he does prove (to me at least) that the press and some large corporate interests are in bed together ...

A "conspiracy theorist" is anyone who proposes a conspiracy other than the official one. Governments lie, not scandalously, outrageously, or occasionally, but normally and routinely; and this is what most people don't, or don't want to understand. So do big corporations, the big media, and everyone else, which was class #1 in the PSYOP Officer's Course I attended in 1969.

Think you know what's going on in the Mideast right now? Give a listen to "Guns & Butter" today, and I promise you'll be in full WTF mode.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#41799 - 08/11/10 07:30 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

Think you know what's going on in the Mideast right now? Give a listen to "Guns & Butter" today, and I promise you'll be in full WTF mode.


Looking forward to listening to it, thank you.

For probably the past five years I've been reading up on and studying things (like the JFK Assassination) that I'd had a passing knowledge of before but that didn't make complete sense. At this point, I wonder how I was able to be so innocent about the ways of the world. Sometimes I feel like Dorothy right at the moment when Toto pulls aside the curtain. It's like that in individual cases and then as a whole ... nothing is ever as cut and dried as it appears to be.

I suppose I was just so busy being what you've called a 'meat machine' in establishing a career, paying my bills, educating myself to excel in the world of the herd and raising a family that I just hadn't the time to question much (which I also suppose now is by design).

As I'm becoming more aware, I now have this itch to remake myself. I suppose I'm pawing around for the real boundaries (or to discover there aren't any) to replace a lifetime of established ones.

Anyway, rambled a bit there. You nailed what I was thinking.
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#41813 - 08/11/10 09:20 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Fnord]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Wow, where to begin? I can't step away for a minute. Okay, in no particular order:

Firstly, I am going to throw out some terms and concepts that you may have to do further independent research on to truly understand. However, I will try to give you a link or two just to get the gist of what I am talking about.

I can assure you, from first hand sources in the Bush White House, that AIPAC is very influential in Washingtion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee

Israel has been getting a free ride for quite a while. We have been fighting wars so they don't have to. Of course, they are the only democracy in that part of the world. But the elephant in the room is, of course, oil. I would love to 'Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war' throughout the Middle East. But I am not sure the US, and the rest of the global economy, are mentally prepared for what that might look like. The Spice must flow.

If we did not do Israel's dirty work then that would leave Israel to fend for themselves. And the Israelis are a lot less wishy-washy than we are. The world has not seen Total War in over 60 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war

Except now, we have way nastier methods to employ it. Given the national character of the players involved, an unchecked war in Middle East would pretty much collapse the global economy. "Mad Max" would look like a documentary.

As in all of history, there is still a ruling class and a status quo. Politics aside, these people have more in common than not. There is an effort afoot to put us on a path toward a new sort of feudalism. I call it Prison Planet doctrine advancing the Reptilian Agenda.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/

At one point there was a decent wiki page on the Reptilian Agenda. But, it no longer exists. It simply explained what the agenda theoretically was from the conspiracy theorist point of view. The article did not take a position on the actual existence of Reptilians or a grander conspiracy, it simply explained what it was claimed to be.

My point is not if there is an actual conspiracy with a spider in the center of the web, but simply that events are vectoring toward the Prison Planet and Reptilian Agenda. The 'why' and 'how' is not really important. Only the net effect matters.

And this leads to my next point. Why would someone replace the simply stated Reptilian Agenda wiki page with the wild eyed rantings of David Icke? Could it be because if you look around this really is what is happening? With or without a master race from outer space, the Reptilian Agenda is a current event.

Never the less, it would seem that there are forces (of all stripes) that are attempting to shape the collective conscious. The wiki info wars are just one example.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2007/140807_wikipedia_credibility.htm

As Aqunio points out, you need to look at what is 'really' going on. Consider for a moment the old Office of Strategic Information.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1843201.stm

An organization formed for the foreign and DOMESTIC, use of Information Operations (IO). IO is a very high concept art that I could take pages to explain. The art it's self is taught mostly to officers with high security clearances. I guess us enlisted swine are either too stupid to understand it, or can't be trusted to 'look behind the curtain.'

Never the less, the US Army War College explains it this way:

"Information Operations seek to influence the behavior of target decision-makers while simultaneously defending friendly decision-makers from being influenced by an adversary’s use of information."

Hmm, sound familiar? Here is a good open source read if you really want to get into this material:

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/dmspo...Nov%2009%29.pdf

Aquino, I would love your take on this 'new' material.

Here is a good simple graphic:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...ved=0CEUQ9QEwCA

But if you really want to get the goods, you will have to go here:

http://www.jfsc.ndu.edu/schools_programs/jc2ios/io/jiooc.asp

But of course, 'they' wouldn't do that sort of think in the US right?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/28/AR2010032802743.html
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#41815 - 08/11/10 09:34 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Fnord]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I think it was Noam Chomsky who said that accusing someone of engaging in conspiracy theory is one way power attempts to gag or discredit genuine institutional analysis and critique.

Have real human relations ever really been based on anything other then Nietzsche, Redbeard and LaVey’s conception?

The only variation appears to be in the level and type of soma, which is in play at a particular moment, and which the majority will accept; and the level and type of violence the real Satanists, pulling the strings behind the scene, will approve and ensure are carried out.

I take Fnord’s point on being innocent to the ways of the world at a younger time (I certainly was). Studying the ambiguities and arguments behind the assassinations of Jack and Bobby Kennedy and Dr. King are revealing. Watching the way the mafia functions or has functioned in the past is instructive as well.

Sorry, I am a bit cynical today, but what was it that Nietzsche said: the average person comes closest to the truth, the more cynical they become?

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#41818 - 08/11/10 09:45 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Fist]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Oh crap, I forgot the main idea of this thread!

Yes, by all means let them build the Mosque. They have every right to. And we have every right to protest it and engage in civil disobedience. And we have every right to put up ads that raise the collective consciousness. Which I believe is really more to the point.

You see, most people don't think this is a greater war between the West and Islam. This is the info war that 'our' side is fighting. As Stalin recognized: "Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" The mind is the ultimate weapon, everything else is supplemental.

So yes, let them build it. And let us protest it. This is simply one phase of the operation. At some point, there will be street violence over this. And we will enter another phase of the operation. And so on and so on, we march toward the Abyss.

What do we want? Total War:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXMQq_1jddA&feature=related
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#41825 - 08/12/10 12:10 AM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Fist]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Fist
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/dmspo/Publications/Information%20Operations%20Primer%20AY10-Web%20Version%20%28Nov%2009%29.pdf

Aquino, I would love your take on this 'new' material.

It's 97% good [amusing to see what MindWar started!], but the remaining 3% would get a "Disapproved" from me if I were the Army Chief of Staff.

The first 1% is the included targeting of domestic audiences and decision-makers, in direct violation of Smith Mundt. Yes, it's couched under "protection of domestic populace & officials from foreign adverse information", etc., but in practice that translates to a filtering of worldwide information to reinforce current USA policy. Which is PSYOP, which is prohibited domestically by Smith Mundt.

The second 1% relates to the first: It is the corruption of the intelligence process which results from it. Good intel requires the collection, understanding, and evaluation of all information, including an enemy's ideology, attitude towards the USA, and goals. We simply have to be able to see ourselves the way others see us, not in a token, devil's-advocate way, but thoroughly and empathetically. Only then can we reassess our own ideology & policies in view of the obvious impasse that resulted in war, and look for ways to resolve it.

The third 1% is the inclusion of Public Affairs, which during my career time was kept completely separate from PSYOP. Smith Mundt again. PAO is DOD or DA talking to our own citizens & officials. It should accordingly be free from the temptation or taint of "spin" (e.g. PSYOP).

One of the core principles of MindWar, which I didn't see in this IO paper, is that these days you win and end wars, especially guerrilla (non-nation/state) ones not by just brute murder or destruction, but rather by finding a solution which all antagonists can live with, even if they don't like it. [This is assuming that you actually want to end the war, which of course you might prefer to keep going for economic, domestic-patriotism-rousing, or etc.] So if you're going to allow parts of IO to in effect blind your own side, you've already failed.

So I would send the paper back to the AWC with these instructions:

(1) Read and obey Smith Mundt, which is federal law above DoD or any other federal agency, or the White House.

(2) Remove PAO from this entire process.

(3) Remove Intelligence from this process, except as a research resource.

(4) In addition to the above, remove any attempts to shelter, divert, impede, or otherwise prevent the American populace & government from foreign sources of information. Officials need to see the fullest possible picture to make wise decisions, and the people need to see it to elect competent officials. That is what a republic based on democracy is all about.

MindWar is different than traditional war, in which you don't bother with all these troublesome considerations. You just beat the other side to a bloody pulp until it yells "surrender", or if it doesn't you kill it completely off. This was WW1 & WW2 thinking, of course, and has an emotionally-satisfying George Patton simplicity to it.

MindWar wants to argue the other side into seeing things our way, and to adjust the physical situation within the limits of both sides' toleration to make that possible. MindWar fails the moment people start shooting or bombing each other. Human nature being what it is, MW won't always work. It also is not a one-time fix to a continuing problem, and it also starts with a stacked and/or deteriorated deck of cards.
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#41927 - 08/14/10 09:41 AM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
Ya know, in light of all the information that's been shared, my gut still is stuck in waffling motion when it comes to this mosque, though my emotional side tends to play out stronger. I posted on another message board this morning after someone posted a video of some goofass addressing the oppositions of the mosque. I think to some degree my response really applies here too. I know they're only my feelings but the truth of the matter is, they mean something to me and I feel the need to state them.

My response was..**Building a Mosque there is very tasteless if you ask the average American, even those that have no affiliation to ANY religion. If the Muslims had any tact, they would understand why building that particular type of "gathering" place there is so offensive to so many. Hell, even a Catholic church that had LONG standing in that community that WAS damaged on 9/11 can't seem to get the permits it needs to be refurbished, and yet this structure is getting the "go ahead"?

The wounds may be almost 10 years old, but the nightmares are still very vivid in the Americans' minds. I still remember EXACTLY where I was and what I was doing that morning. I remember the way everyone was so incredibly, eerily quiet that day as they watched in horror as the towers fell and the reports all over the US started coming in. Videos of the Muslim owners of the little shops around the world dancing in the streets, to include here in the US. I DO remember the days that followed and I wasn't one that was directly affected by that day. I can't even begin to imagine what it was like in NY. I can only remember what was shown day in and day out on the news, and yet there are days lately I don't remember where I set my tea down in the house.

Ya know what though, to hell with everything else, so long as there's freedom of religion. Build the Mosque right there, less than 500 feet from where those towers fell and better than 3,000 lives (American and foreign alike) were taken. Who cares if they were murdered and we're still fighting against terrorism. Our soldiers are dying for that very freedom, even though that building spits in so many Americans' faces. Yes, have their freedom, but the least they could do is show a bit of tact to the very country they are RESIDING in as well. Is that really TOO MUCH to ask?**

Yep, it was a rant, replying to a Muslim when she toted out some dipshits video. I know our "wars" are about more than terrorism but after her little "nanny nanny" attitude in her post, I don't expect her to get much more than that. I, personally, don't want that mosque, but if they get the legal ok's all the way through, I hope someone does put up a rib/bacon resturant on one side and the gay bar goes in on the other. I hope the place is watched like none other and if there is even an inkling of "foul play", whether it be dirty money or sleeper cells, I hope it gets taken down completely. I'd love to see sooooo many have to eat more than crow if something like that were to come to light after the damn place was built. Hopefully it would be before anything else, like another bombing attempt would occur.

Then my brain talks and I know it's their right and freedom to build there. It's doesn't make it any easier, or more comfortable in any way shape or form, but then again, I am human like that.
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#42103 - 08/20/10 10:06 AM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Nyte]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
General Response


If I've learned one thing in my time here on planet Earth it's that controversial things often get even more interesting when one begins to follow the money.

There is a lot of bullshit surrounding this whole thing from both sides. The funding, and the story thereof, is going to be where the rubber hits the road.
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#42117 - 08/20/10 02:58 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

Think you know what's going on in the Mideast right now? Give a listen to "Guns & Butter" today, and I promise you'll be in full WTF mode.


WTF is right. I listened to this last week and was reminded of it this morning when I heard about the current mid east sabre-rattling courtesy of Iran & Israel.

I'm inclined to give some merit to this guy's ideas... things are looking ominous over there and Obama's sending troops to Afghanistan as we speak.

The next few months are going to be interesting.
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