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#42296 - 08/23/10 09:15 AM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Fnord]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Fnord

I'm inclined to give some merit to this guy's ideas... things are looking ominous over there and Obama's sending troops to Afghanistan as we speak.

The next few months are going to be interesting.


This scares the shit out of me and I hate saying that, but it's the truth. My oldest son's best friend is in the Army reserves and his troop is looking at the good possibility of going active before the end of this year because of the mess in Afghanistan. He's like my own son, so much so that he's currently living with us and I can't get the gutroll gone thinking about him going over there. I can't imagine what mine or his family would be like should something happen to him over there. Yes, I know this is what he's wanted to do from as far back as we can all remember, but it doesn't make it any easier, or better. I know this is what he signed up to do, but he's still a big part of my family and I DON'T want him to go THERE.

Back to the topic of this thread for a moment now. I was reading about the protests that are going on over the Islamic center and two things have made me think beyond just the hoopla that's been brewing.

I've noticed that the Imam that wants to build this center seems to think all this commotion is a good thing. That somehow this will open communication and will lead to healing. I'm wondering what kind of healing it is when people are yelling back and forth over protest lines.

I'm also wondering if anyone has thought of another "whatif". What if an American does decide to wage their own personal war against this center (and I mean more than just spray painting slurs)? Where will this whole thing be then? Will we be attacked again for something ONE person decided to take upon themselves to do? Where will the healing be in all of that? I know they have the freedom to build the center, and I know it's their constitutional right, but when will it be considered the "wrong" thing to do for all concerned? When there is fighting in the streets? When someone gets angry enough to start shooting or set off a bomb? When does the cost of freedom become too much for everyone concerned? All over a building....

I don't ever want to see something like 9/11 again in my home land and I really don't want to see another day like the day we attacked Iraq (though I must say our military's fire power was incredible to watch). I don't want to have to explain it to my youngest son either. It was hard enough telling a 10 year old, just days before his birthday, why 9/11 happened and why we were blowing up Iraq some months later.

The waffling continues....
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#42297 - 08/23/10 11:16 AM What you do yourself... [Re: Nyte]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
I've noticed that the Imam that wants to build this center seems to think all this commotion is a good thing. That somehow this will open communication and will lead to healing. I'm wondering what kind of healing it is when people are yelling back and forth over protest lines.

During protests there is always a frontman (with, preferably, the most brain capacity) who will try to state the opinion of the protesting masses in an objective way to open up a discussion. This "healing" is nothing more then a metaphore for indicating a possible discussion between them and the frontmen/women wherein points of views are shared during a constructive chat in hopes of a compromy.

The question which should arise would be if the persons doing the debate stand strong enough and manage to persuate the idea out of their minds. Why not try organising a major protest yourself and pulling yourself up as the frontman and discuss the points of view with them? I'm sure enough it'll be much better then throwing eggs.. (you can always keep it as a last resort when they are just narrow-minded and you really want to make the idea feel unwelcome).

 Quote:
I know they have the freedom to build the center, and I know it's their constitutional right, but when will it be considered the "wrong" thing to do for all concerned? When there is fighting in the streets? When someone gets angry enough to start shooting or set off a bomb? When does the cost of freedom become too much for everyone concerned? All over a building....

It is also your constitutional right to stand up and adress your negative feelings. Do not also forget you are living in a democracy ("cough cough") wherein the idea of "what the majority wants shall be endorsed/happening". Try opening up a sort of "voting" campaign wherein the people must choose if the mosque will be built or not.


Edited by Dimitri (08/23/10 11:19 AM)
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#42302 - 08/23/10 01:54 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Nyte]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Nyte

I've noticed that the Imam that wants to build this center seems to think all this commotion is a good thing. That somehow this will open communication and will lead to healing. I'm wondering what kind of healing it is when people are yelling back and forth over protest lines.


In the long term, he is probably right. If he can remain standing against the attacks of the unthinking multitude, he should prevail (usual caveats apply: skeletons in his closet, shady funding sources or relationships, etc.).


 Originally Posted By: Nyte

I'm also wondering if anyone has thought of another "whatif". What if an American does decide to wage their own personal war against this center (and I mean more than just spray painting slurs)? Where will this whole thing be then? Will we be attacked again for something ONE person decided to take upon themselves to do? Where will the healing be in all of that? I know they have the freedom to build the center, and I know it's their constitutional right, but when will it be considered the "wrong" thing to do for all concerned? When there is fighting in the streets? When someone gets angry enough to start shooting or set off a bomb? When does the cost of freedom become too much for everyone concerned? All over a building....


It will never be "wrong", from an intellectual point of view (assuming those wanting to build it have no ties back to the 9/11 perpetrators), even if there's fighting in the streets or bombs, because in this country everyone is equal under the law.

It will always be "wrong", from an emotional point of view, because humans are tribal (as Diavolo said) and "they" attacked "us".

You may choose your own point of view, but I advise against basing it on your "whatif"s, because that's basing your life on fear.

The essence of life is struggle and conflict. We've been fortunate enough in the U.S. to have an easy, tranquil life, relative to most of the rest of human existence, but it's not free, and it's not guaranteed. The price of that freedom is tolerance of those we disagree with; demanding that people be responsible for their own actions; and a volunteer military made of people like your son's friend (and others here at the 600C), who's not afraid to stand up for what he believes in and to risk his life so others can live free.

There is no Utopia. Some humans will always try to dominate others, some forcefully. Some humans will always be emotional and tribal, not understanding how you can defend "them". Some humans will always be intellectual, not understanding how you erroneously lump in "these" with "those". Even when everybody's peaceful, people will have different interests and goals.

In the end you can be responsible only for yourself. The best you can do, IMNSHO, is to understand as much as possible about what you want, what everybody else wants, and how best to get what you want. Know what you will and won't compromise on, and why. Know the consequences of your actions. Stand up to those who would push you around. If they attack with intent to kill, destroy them without mercy or remorse.

You won't always win, but that seems the path with the best odds to me. The U.S. usually (but not always) seems to follow this general line.

Otherwise you live in fear, and someone will own you through it.
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#42305 - 08/23/10 04:40 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Autodidact]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1737
Loc: New York
Damn right I live in fear, but so did many people who eventually rose up against repression.

I fear that the more you do to appease the barbaric Muslims, the more of my freedoms will be given away in order to appease them even more.

I fear the domino affect of more demands and more concessions that they will get once they get a major foothold in the U.S, as is happening now in Europe.

I fear the castrated American mentality that will allow such things to happen because no one of influence will want to make waves or to endanger their political careers.

I’ve thought long and hard on this subject, and you know what? FUCK their rights and civil liberties. Ever since 9/11 mine have been chipped away slowly but effectively. My library record, medical records, internet history, are now made available to just about anyone with a badge to view if they wish to do so.
I may not have more then one drivers license, and even the one that I am allowed MUST be registered to a physical home address, thereby assuring that I register with the government within ten days of moving to a new address, if I wish to obey the law; which by the way is getting harder and harder to do because more and more restrictive laws are past each day thanks to the turd prophet of the desert. (By the way, here's a picture of him ) Might as well enjoy making an image of him before it is outlawed outright.

Every time that I get a new job since 9/11, I have to subject myself to a stringent background check. You can no longer walk into a place and just get a job and start working the next day.

I might even have to subject myself to a full body x-ray anytime that I wish to travel in this FREE country. Not to mention all the other inconveniences that air travel now demands. Again thanks to <---Mohammed, the child molester.

“If we don’t allow them to have their civil liberties, then we will eventually lose ours,” is bullshit. We are already losing ours because of them.

Most of all, I fear looking at myself in the mirror one day (that is if it’s not illegal to do so by then,) and seeing a complacent arm chair protester looking back at me in disgust, because no matter what I say I too share the castrated American mentality that most people in this country now have, but at least I don’t stick my head in the sand, and make believe that everything will work itself out if we just allow those who would enslave us if they could, to partake in the civil liberties which they seek to destroy.

Fuck Islam and their “rights.” If they want rights and privileges, then they can start by allowing everyone to have them as well back in that venom pit of shit where they originated from.

Sure let them have their Mosque right next to where they murdered thousands of people from all over the world. Hell, I will go out and help them paint it a nice dark brown, and will even paint the front side walk with all the nation's flags to represent everyone who were murdered there.
That way it will be a more perfect representation of what that Mosque truly is. A tall loaf of shit taken on the rest of the world by Islam, including those pathetic sheep from the western countries who converted to their psychoses. (By the way American Muslims make snake charming chrisitans look like Einstein)

Am I being emotional? Fuck yes I am, but I know where that emotion is coming from. Fear.
Fear is good, it is what allows living things to survive, unless your an Ostrich.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#42316 - 08/23/10 07:43 PM Re: What you do yourself... [Re: Dimitri]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
I've noticed that the Imam that wants to build this center seems to think all this commotion is a good thing. That somehow this will open communication and will lead to healing. I'm wondering what kind of healing it is when people are yelling back and forth over protest lines.

During protests there is always a frontman (with, preferably, the most brain capacity) who will try to state the opinion of the protesting masses in an objective way to open up a discussion. This "healing" is nothing more then a metaphore for indicating a possible discussion between them and the frontmen/women wherein points of views are shared during a constructive chat in hopes of a compromy.

The question which should arise would be if the persons doing the debate stand strong enough and manage to persuate the idea out of their minds. Why not try organising a major protest yourself and pulling yourself up as the frontman and discuss the points of view with them? I'm sure enough it'll be much better then throwing eggs.. (you can always keep it as a last resort when they are just narrow-minded and you really want to make the idea feel unwelcome).


I would love to think your scenerio is true, but sadly I've watched many protests and that's not always the case. As much as I'd love to have the finances, time, etc., to be able to pull together a protest that was more rational, sadly that's not the case. My family needs to be cared for, and for that reason alone, I won't be able to travel to NY to protest the way I would like to. I know I could probably find someone to finance the trip if I presented my point of view well enough, but I don't think they'd pay my wages while I was gone, or get my youngest off to school, or do the normal "home" things for me. I chose to be a wife, a mother, and an employee and those things must come first, in my life.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
I know they have the freedom to build the center, and I know it's their constitutional right, but when will it be considered the "wrong" thing to do for all concerned? When there is fighting in the streets? When someone gets angry enough to start shooting or set off a bomb? When does the cost of freedom become too much for everyone concerned? All over a building....

It is also your constitutional right to stand up and adress your negative feelings. Do not also forget you are living in a democracy ("cough cough") wherein the idea of "what the majority wants shall be endorsed/happening". Try opening up a sort of "voting" campaign wherein the people must choose if the mosque will be built or not.


I haven't forgotten that I "can have a voice" in what is happening in my country. Money is what does override anyone's voice in this country though, and because I don't have money to just throw at something like this, my voice will not be heard. I'm not stupid to the way our country "works" and must pick and choose my battles. This is one I can only work out for myself, and can't fix for everyone else.

The 600 Club has been a good outlet for me, and for now, it will have to remain a way for me to not only learn but voice what I feel, possibly giving way to more growth. Who knows, it may lead to a day where I CAN set up a "voting" of sorts that will make a difference. For now, I can just read, question and learn. I know my own limits at this current time in my life.
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If only just for today.....

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#42320 - 08/23/10 08:39 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Autodidact]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
 Originally Posted By: Nyte

I've noticed that the Imam that wants to build this center seems to think all this commotion is a good thing. That somehow this will open communication and will lead to healing. I'm wondering what kind of healing it is when people are yelling back and forth over protest lines.


In the long term, he is probably right. If he can remain standing against the attacks of the unthinking multitude, he should prevail (usual caveats apply: skeletons in his closet, shady funding sources or relationships, etc.).


He's going to have to start answering questions if he wants to really remain standing in all of this. He's leaving himself way too open from all directions and that very fault is going to kick him in the ass, in the long run.

 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
 Originally Posted By: Nyte

I'm also wondering if anyone has thought of another "whatif". What if an American does decide to wage their own personal war against this center (and I mean more than just spray painting slurs)? Where will this whole thing be then? Will we be attacked again for something ONE person decided to take upon themselves to do? Where will the healing be in all of that? I know they have the freedom to build the center, and I know it's their constitutional right, but when will it be considered the "wrong" thing to do for all concerned? When there is fighting in the streets? When someone gets angry enough to start shooting or set off a bomb? When does the cost of freedom become too much for everyone concerned? All over a building....


It will never be "wrong", from an intellectual point of view (assuming those wanting to build it have no ties back to the 9/11 perpetrators), even if there's fighting in the streets or bombs, because in this country everyone is equal under the law.

It will always be "wrong", from an emotional point of view, because humans are tribal (as Diavolo said) and "they" attacked "us".

You may choose your own point of view, but I advise against basing it on your "whatif"s, because that's basing your life on fear.

The essence of life is struggle and conflict. We've been fortunate enough in the U.S. to have an easy, tranquil life, relative to most of the rest of human existence, but it's not free, and it's not guaranteed. The price of that freedom is tolerance of those we disagree with; demanding that people be responsible for their own actions; and a volunteer military made of people like your son's friend (and others here at the 600C), who's not afraid to stand up for what he believes in and to risk his life so others can live free.

There is no Utopia. Some humans will always try to dominate others, some forcefully. Some humans will always be emotional and tribal, not understanding how you can defend "them". Some humans will always be intellectual, not understanding how you erroneously lump in "these" with "those". Even when everybody's peaceful, people will have different interests and goals.

In the end you can be responsible only for yourself. The best you can do, IMNSHO, is to understand as much as possible about what you want, what everybody else wants, and how best to get what you want. Know what you will and won't compromise on, and why. Know the consequences of your actions. Stand up to those who would push you around. If they attack with intent to kill, destroy them without mercy or remorse.

You won't always win, but that seems the path with the best odds to me. The U.S. usually (but not always) seems to follow this general line.

Otherwise you live in fear, and someone will own you through it.


Fear can be a great motivator. Without fear, we might never stand up for ourselves, or those that we care about. My fear makes me work out if something is worth doing or not. Without fear, some may never weigh out what the out come of their actions could be. Not taking that time means that someone is being completely controled by their emotions, never realizing what the final result will be to their actions and how it may actually affect others directly around them. Rationality takes hold when we weigh the out comes, all scenerios thought through completely before we take action. That's what sets us apart from much of the animal word. We have the ability to think things through, including but not limited to our fears, and make decisions based on rationale, rather than being completely primal enough to react without thought.

We have 2 prime examples of what happens when fear takes hold in this country and the only out comes were what a very specific group of people wanted. Yes, they used the masses fear to keep people where they wanted them during the Vietnam and Iraq wars. The problem is, no one else thought their fears through or the "whatifs". Very few voiced themselves against the wars until it was too late. We were there and had all ready ensured that we would have to stay for the duration.

I don't think either party in this whole mess with the Islamic center have thought this through very well. They haven't weighed the "whatifs" and are focussing on the here and now, their views only. That does concern me, because we've seen what happens when things aren't thought through when it comes to this country (just look at the Patriot Act, our airports, general restrictions as Asmedious has pointed out). At least my fears are defined enough I now know how to work through them and they can't be used against me. There is a difference between living IN fear and knowing the possible outcomes (working through fear) because someone else didn't think things through completely.
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If only just for today.....

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#42323 - 08/23/10 09:09 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Nyte]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
I think we're basically on the same page, though we're using the word "fear" in slightly different manners.

The "whatif"s I was referring to were what you wrote in your original - basically, "if we do something, somebody else might choose to do something 'bad' in response", which is equated by fear slaves into "if we don't do anything, therefore, nothing bad will happen".

The thinking-through of consequences doesn't have to be motivated by fear; AAMOF, in the sense I'm using it, fear precludes such thinking; but yeah, I think we're essentially saying the same thing there.

The behavior of the various factions in this issue - or, indeed, most issues nowadays, it seems - is predictably polarized. Pro and con, right and wrong, them and us. Observe and ponder - who these emotionally-driven people typically are, why they act like that, what information they get. Compare and contrast with your own method of thinking and acting. (Bonus question: after working out the why and the how, think about how you would push an agenda you felt strongly about, given massive resources)

Then consider if there are further modes of thinking beyond these two. Then think about stratification.

We may all be created equal - do we all remain equal?

(Hm, too much gin results in me waxing scholastic. Apologies )
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#42337 - 08/24/10 02:32 AM Re: What you do yourself... [Re: Nyte]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
I haven't forgotten that I "can have a voice" in what is happening in my country. Money is what does override anyone's voice in this country though, and because I don't have money to just throw at something like this, my voice will not be heard.

I agree on the point where "money makes power" is a philosophy in our current society. But not having much money does not mean you can't let things happen.
I like to refer to the idea we Belgians once had "Eendracht maakt macht/ l'unité faites la force", which can be loosely translated in "power to the masses". Sometimes you don't need to use explosives to move a mountain, sometimes just throwing a little pebble might result in an avalanche.

 Quote:
I would love to think your scenerio is true, but sadly I've watched many protests and that's not always the case.

That's why I asked the question why you don't take matters at hand. A discussion like this can be insightfull and a relief to some to give opinions about this topic, but it is in no way constructive in making actual changes. Most people will be disappointed/angered when the thing is being built, they had it comming. Some of them had the time and resources to make a change, they simply didn't fucking stood-up and made a change. They decided to rant about it, voicing their opinions in places which had no influence or direct impact on the situation (such as this discussion/topic btw).

If my memory serves correctly: wasn't life outside the virtual reality not the biggest teacher and the Satanists class room and practice area?

I can quite understand the reasoning for not being able to do so, but hell, sometimes emailing to the frontpersons of the opposite party itself can be much more enlighting.

 Quote:
I know my own limits at this current time in my life.

How about pushing those limits? There are many things you can do as long as your goals are steady set, are creative enough and have the willpower to try and make a change.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#42513 - 08/26/10 08:59 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Knievel74 Offline
member


Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
In case anyone hasn't seen it. Here's a video by British comedian Pat Condell on the building of the Mosque. It's pretty insightful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dWcB5zbV-A&feature=related
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"Man was meant to live, not just to exist". - Evel Knievel

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#42514 - 08/26/10 09:07 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Knievel74]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
LOL! Fuuuuuuuuuucked it up... but I actually remember this when it aired LIVE.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#42516 - 08/26/10 11:51 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Knievel74]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1140
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Knievel74
In case anyone hasn't seen it. Here's a video by British comedian Pat Condell on the building of the Mosque. It's pretty insightful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dWcB5zbV-A&feature=related


Is this a goofed link or a new Rick Roll?

I don't know if anyone actually wanted to see what Condell said, but just in case: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4
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#42521 - 08/27/10 12:53 AM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Autodidact]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
I think we're basically on the same page, though we're using the word "fear" in slightly different manners.

The "whatif"s I was referring to were what you wrote in your original - basically, "if we do something, somebody else might choose to do something 'bad' in response", which is equated by fear slaves into "if we don't do anything, therefore, nothing bad will happen".

The thinking-through of consequences doesn't have to be motivated by fear; AAMOF, in the sense I'm using it, fear precludes such thinking; but yeah, I think we're essentially saying the same thing there.

The behavior of the various factions in this issue - or, indeed, most issues nowadays, it seems - is predictably polarized. Pro and con, right and wrong, them and us. Observe and ponder - who these emotionally-driven people typically are, why they act like that, what information they get. Compare and contrast with your own method of thinking and acting. (Bonus question: after working out the why and the how, think about how you would push an agenda you felt strongly about, given massive resources)

Then consider if there are further modes of thinking beyond these two. Then think about stratification.

We may all be created equal - do we all remain equal?

(Hm, too much gin results in me waxing scholastic. Apologies )


LOL...I think your gin got the better of you.

I know there are things I could do right now, provided I really wanted to. However, at this time in my life, I know they have the Constitutional right to build that Islamic Center and although I don't like it, won't join in the mayhem of protesting it. So long as our government makes sure the money trail is "clean" and they watch what goes on there closely, I'm going to rest on my laurels with this one. I don't know if I really trust anyone to make sure of that, but this time, knowing what I DO know, I feel fairly sure this one is "out of my hands". Still doesn't mean I have to like it though.

To answer your "bonus question"...(and completely different scenario)...The latest brewha that I'm worried about is our government stepping into the food industry and making it so that foods and drinks made with real sugar and real sugar derivatives are no longer available to the public. If that happens, I'm in real trouble and will stand up shouting, instead of just airing out my "whatifs" here. I will find a way to make sure they know how dangerous the artificial sweeteners are to people, in general, not just me. I have a life-threatening allergy to artificial sweeteners (my liver starts to shut down shortly after consuming anything with that crap in it). To boot, my oldest has CF and artificial sweeteners are NOT good for him at all, along with 1000's of other people with CF (due to the diuretic affect they can have). I'd do more than weigh out the possible scenarios and would be hell bent on getting them to see "my point of view", starting at the top and working my way down, one way or another.

Like I said, it's about choosing my battles and choosing them wisely, knowing when I have to fight and when it's something I won't be able to change. I know when it's wise to use up my resources and when it's not. I'm aware of when I can and have to make a difference and when my opposition has the upper hand.
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#42522 - 08/27/10 01:27 AM Re: What you do yourself... [Re: Dimitri]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
I haven't forgotten that I "can have a voice" in what is happening in my country. Money is what does override anyone's voice in this country though, and because I don't have money to just throw at something like this, my voice will not be heard.

I agree on the point where "money makes power" is a philosophy in our current society. But not having much money does not mean you can't let things happen.
I like to refer to the idea we Belgians once had "Eendracht maakt macht/ l'unité faites la force", which can be loosely translated in "power to the masses". Sometimes you don't need to use explosives to move a mountain, sometimes just throwing a little pebble might result in an avalanche.


Oh, I completely agree that even the smallest and poorest of voices can be heard when they really want to be. I know there could be ways that I could be heard. But something through this conversation has stuck with me and that means more than all of my fears put together. They DO have the Constitutional right to build that Islamic center there. I can only hope that the "right" people keep track of what money goes into that place and what kinds of things go on there.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
I would love to think your scenerio is true, but sadly I've watched many protests and that's not always the case.

That's why I asked the question why you don't take matters at hand. A discussion like this can be insightfull and a relief to some to give opinions about this topic, but it is in no way constructive in making actual changes. Most people will be disappointed/angered when the thing is being built, they had it comming. Some of them had the time and resources to make a change, they simply didn't fucking stood-up and made a change. They decided to rant about it, voicing their opinions in places which had no influence or direct impact on the situation (such as this discussion/topic btw).

If my memory serves correctly: wasn't life outside the virtual reality not the biggest teacher and the Satanists class room and practice area?

I can quite understand the reasoning for not being able to do so, but hell, sometimes emailing to the frontpersons of the opposite party itself can be much more enlighting.


I've weighed this topic back and forth so many times. I've thought a lot of this conversation through (working nights does have it's advantages). I know what you are saying Dimitri, and understand it completely. Do I have that much time and desire to try to affect this particular situation? Not really. I know they have the right to their building, and that DOES make a difference to what I will follow through on. I'll be hoping the whole time that the "right" people will be watching them very closely. Hell, I might even become one of those people that's watching.


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
I know my own limits at this current time in my life.

How about pushing those limits? There are many things you can do as long as your goals are steady set, are creative enough and have the willpower to try and make a change.


Have done that many, many a time. Right now, with this situation, nope. Through this whole thing, I've been able to define my fears (and whatifs), put them into perspective and realize that even though I don't like it, they have the right AND freedom to build anyway. I know when to push my limits and when my resources are better spent else where. Now, if the situation changes, my perspective might change, as well as my direction.
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If only just for today.....

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#42523 - 08/27/10 01:33 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Jake999]
Knievel74 Offline
member


Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
LOL! Fuuuuuuuuuucked it up... but I actually remember this when it aired LIVE.


LOL!!! Oh, shit! Wrong link. Sorry about that \:\) \:\) I'm getting my girlfriend into KISS so I've been sending her links.

Thanks for the save, Xiao!

So yeah, check out Condell's video - from Xiao - on the Mosque.

...and KISS rocks!!!
_________________________
"Man was meant to live, not just to exist". - Evel Knievel

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#42590 - 08/28/10 10:02 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Knievel74]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Quote:
Can you be a Muslim and an American patriot? You can if you don't care very much about being a Muslim. If you squint and look away, you can avoid thinking about the very basic clashes between the submissive, collectivist values of Islam and the individualist, libertarian values of the democratic West.

In a 2007 poll by the Pew Center, 63 percent of U.S. Muslims said they saw no conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society. But 32 percent conceded that, yes, there is such a conflict, and almost 50 percent of the Muslim American questioned in that poll said they think of themselves as Muslims first, Americans second. Only 28 percent, little more than a quarter, considered themselves Americans first.

Asked whether suicide bombing can be justified as a measure to defend Islam, 26 percent of American Muslims age eighteen to twenty-nine said yes. That is one quarter of the adult American Muslims under the age of thirty, and no matter how you count the number of Muslims in America (estimates vary from 2 million to 8 million), that is a lot of people.


Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Nomad – Excerpts
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/483/muslim-americans

D.

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