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#42615 - 08/29/10 10:18 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Diavolo]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
On the subject of Islam and patriotism I thought this piece from the "Ottawa Citizen" by American Muslims was both interesting and reasoned.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html#ixzz0wcZNOGAS
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#49989 - 02/27/11 03:28 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I can't write what I would like because of law.

So,

It's a deliberate culture clash, NWO merging opposing paradigms, submerge society into Chaos. The emergence of new Order. This is only a good thing. Why?

The worlds people are just a banal eternal recurrence especially when you look at them in their own inane equality pathos, humans are a mass of clay that can to be moulded by a architect. War and destruction are the tools of an art form which will never die out because the canvas just keeps arriving anew, humans keep being born. The globe is just a supply of eternally recurring materials for the architects to work with and make a vastly different state of structure.

Let the humans build whatever they like, after all they are all equal and the same. Worthless clay.

Monotonous absurdity—society.
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#52371 - 04/07/11 11:48 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Religious extremists (goes the official version) attacked the financial center of the US.


Yes they did. However reality of is that they did not attack for religious reasons. All nations and cultures clash, violently this is the nature of man.


 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Proponents of that same religion then seek to build a place of worship where that financial center used to be.


*Well one could actually argue that it is not the same religion, that the attackers subscribed to a violent philosophy, a violent religion while these individuals do not believe murdering innocents is a sacrament. In addition the "mosque" is not a mosque but a cultural/community center and the building is not going to be at the site of the towers. i think the would find it difficult to build on the top the "freedom tower memorial" thing. In the fact the slated construction site is blocks away, be aware that there is already a functioning mosque which is closer to ground zero. Not to mention the obvious fact that there first amendment counts for muslims too. Americans also have the right to philosophically support terrorism, so this point also has no merit.

 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Do you not see that as symbolic of a victory of religion over commerce?


No it is a victory over commerce. Religion doesn't conquer, people do. Once again even if this is intended to be some sort "victory mosque" to show support for Al Qaeda, which it is not, this is not illegal. Remember that we fight people not ideas, if we are at war with islam as a religion then we will lose because ideas never die.

 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Why pick that exact location?



I think that they picked this location to be symbolic of American civility, that in the U.S. because we are civiled we don't deny different groups the rights that are theirs. That in the U.S. we should strive to live up to our ideals of liberty and justice for ALL. That is the only symbolic meaning behind it.

Honestly soulds like you're watching to much Fox News, because as Mr. Acquino put it I would expect a Satanist to know better than this.

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#52376 - 04/07/11 12:14 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Meph9]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Enough with your PC garbage. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com Go there, read, educate yourself and stop believing everything that every hand holding, let's all love each other, patchouli stinking hippie tells you.
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#52377 - 04/07/11 12:27 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Meph9]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Meph9

Honestly soulds like you're watching to much Fox News, because as Mr. Acquino put it I would expect a Satanist to know better than this.


Honestly, I think you need a remedial reading class.

If you had noticed the posts before and after the one you chose to quote, you would (and again I'm probably giving you too much credit) notice that I never actually took a hard position on any of it but, rather, threw out the news of the day, in the context of the day (which was quite a bit of time ago), for discussion.

This is the second time I've had to bring you up to speed just to begin to converse with you and honestly it's too much effort.

The rest of your post is you presuming to teach the reader (me or anyone else reading) things that are blatantly (and painfully) obvious and have already been covered on the thread (sometimes, numerous times).
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#52419 - 04/07/11 07:25 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Someone who supposedly knows or understands the facts involved doesn't make stupid comment in the first place. No one said people can live in peace, mankind only acheives growth through struggle and hardship, violence and warfare but religion is never the cause it.

If one can not see that fact then you're misleading yourself.

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#52424 - 04/07/11 09:29 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Meph9]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
but religion is never the cause it.


Are you serious? It's official, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say. Ever.
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#52428 - 04/07/11 10:11 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I had to blink my eyes and check his profile for a moment. Only 20, but I ASSUME they had some kind of schooling and had to have heard at least of the Crusades...

You could easily argue that the wars against the Aztec and Mayan civilizations by the Spanish were religious wars, although the chief byproduct was stolen gold and dead natives... the stated goal was Christianization of the heathens.

And the Arab Israeli wars... ostensibly about land rights but obviously religiously motivated.

The ongoing wars between the Tutsi and Huttus in Africa

The Kurdish/Shia conflicts in Kurdistan and parts of Turkey

The Shia/Sunni conflict through much of the Iraqi/Iranian sphere

Lebanon and Israel

The 17th Century Thirty Years War in Europe between the Catholics and the Protestants

The French Religious War between Catholics and Hugonauts

Just off the top of my head...
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#52433 - 04/07/11 11:38 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Jake999]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
I'm done with this one. It's dumber than a stump.
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#52449 - 04/08/11 02:15 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
At the heart of all conflict is the competition for resources. Think for a moment what does religion as a concept do for mankind in terms of their physical needs. It can not feed, protect, shelter etc. them in any way. Religion provides benefit to mind not the body and thus is unlimited, there is no competition for this resource. The reality is that it comes down to those people have what we want and they don't want to share so lets go kill them and take it. To blame abstract ideas for any actions in the real world is silly, religion and politics are used as scapegoats because humanity has an innate desire to avoid taking responsibility for any of its negative actions.
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#52452 - 04/08/11 02:27 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Meph9]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
At the heart of all conflict is the competition for resources.


And what resources could the city of Jerusalem have offered that couldn't have been more easily obtained from closer sources and without all the bloodshed? The Crusades were no conflicts over natural resources, they were conflicts over a land mass that was perceived to be holy by two different religions.

You really have no clue what you are talking about. I suggest you go away and don't come back until you pull your head out of your ass.
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#52454 - 04/08/11 03:19 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
I think that what Meph9 is driving at here is that the underlying motive for wars has been the control of territory and resources (including people). Religion, like political ideology, is just a PSYOP control device employed by governing individuals/cliques to get the masses to fight. I think this is a point well-taken.

Without some kind of psychological goad, threat, provocation, or fear, there is no reason for the masses of one area to fight those of another - particularly if they are not going to be the ones to get the others' gold, women, oil, land, etc.

"Religion" was not much of a tool in the pre-Christian West; most of the ancient Classical cultures didn't much care whom/what you worshipped as long as you didn't get pushy about it like the Jews/Christians. Wars were fought for sensible reasons like turf, gold, and sex [the Sabines, Troy, Cleopatra, etc.].

In post-Classical, Christianized Europe, turf & gold were still in fashion. Not sure about women; the ugly ones probably weren't worth fighting over, and the good-looking ones were busy being burnt as witches. Anyhow the gold was supposed to be down-east with the Infidels, so Christiandom was fanned up into Crusademania. By the time this schtick had been exhausted and whatever stealable stolen, along came the Reformation. Now Europe's turf&goldgrabbers could get Catholics to fight Protestants, and of course heathen savages discovered anyplace else that might have turf/gold. And so on until the Enlightenment, after which general discrediting of religion, secular scare-ideologies became the new PSYOP devices. Hence "Socialism!" "Marxism!" "anarchism!" "fascism!" "Communism!" and now "Terrorism!" . [Until the Red Scare got going in the late '40s, I think we dabbled with UFO invasions (Roswell, Blue Book, etc.) but concluded that was more cool & fun than scary. Still is.]

So today is Islam the cause of all this war? Of course not. It's just oil, which just happens to be buried in places like Iraq & Libya. Muslims have been around for a long time, and when left alone tend to leave others alone. Of course if non-Muslims suddenly show up and steal their lands, shoot/bomb them, wall them in, blockade them, "sanction" them, and instigate/prop up police-state dictators over them, they might be excused for becoming just a bit testy.

Has conventional religion been used as a PSYOP device for war? Sure. Is it the underlying motivation for wars? Not unless kings, clergy, presidents, or dictators sell it as such.
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#52501 - 04/08/11 05:42 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: XiaoGui17]
mightisright Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 24
I see no problem with the new mosque, that is, unless extremists are going to use it as a way to gain access to America. I truly don't care much about the issue as long as it doesn't affect me!
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#52502 - 04/08/11 05:51 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: mightisright]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: mightisright
I see no problem with the new mosque, that is, unless extremists are going to use it as a way to gain access to America.


What, via a tunnel under the Atlantic?

 Originally Posted By: mightisright
I truly don't care much about the issue as long as it doesn't affect me!


Even that gives is too much credence, because you've filed it away under "doesn't affect me", with a hanging implication that there's something there someone may be "worried" about.

Use your brain. The whole issue is bunk, emotional rhetoric to stir people up, but it exists. Examine it, see who's talking and why, and what effect it has on people. Learn something from it.
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#52508 - 04/08/11 06:43 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Quote:
Has conventional religion been used as a PSYOP device for war? Sure. Is it the underlying motivation for wars? Not unless kings, clergy, presidents, or dictators sell it as such.


Viewed in terms of its historical development, it can be argued that War was and is the victim of an idea akin to a "hijacking". This "hijacking" occurred over such an extended period of time that the victims (kings, clergy, presidents or dictators) were very seldom conscious of 'being taken for a ride' against their Will. With the said opinion, one is tempted to believe that the unseen cause may be due to possibly a single prophet able to forsee that over many centuries, '...men would be drawn to their own burning Deaths by the influence from another'.

When I add the many more millions of seemingly innocent men, women and children who burned with the soldiers (used loosely) through the advent of War(s), I conclude that the preceding quote has to be arrived at by a full understanding. Otherwise, one is left with inadequate Knowledge. Even more to the point, a French scholar notes that, '...killing is Evil only in the event the killer fails to recognize his intended victim'. A second example: if one no longer sees his opponent as a living human being, then he is free to kill the opponent at Will. (A tactic and rule and definition of Wars.) However, the cost was and is that when under pressure from above (kings, clergy, presidents or dictators) warrior patrons with the modern subservience to a government become "unhinged" thereby losing the internal, moral compass with only the outer shell of the feuding warrior remaining.

Furthermore, I can sympathize with the remarks based on a collective greed of each warring state that is integral to the structure of all states as they exist in the world. The so-called "defensive Wars" that nations inevitably claim to be fighting are no more than convenient facades to disguise the pursuit of national aggrandizement euphemistically known as the "national intest".

One must be aware of a dilemma when discoursing about War:

1) There is the ever-present danger of talking mere nonsense, for the ultimate reason of War is that all words and their referents are conventional. At the same time, there are things one can say without lapsing into nonsense by way of displaying or exhibiting, e.g. reasons for War.
2) By distinguishing the conventional from the ultimate reason for War(s), one is developing a sort of theory of one truth and one falsehood for becoming engaged in conflict.

Ciao...666

;\)
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