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#55178 - 05/29/11 05:12 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: paolo sette]
SerialKeller Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 19
Loc: Scotland
My opinion on the subject of Islam over here is a little conflicted. To sum it up very quickly I believe that most real Muslims are good, but either way, they should not be here.

Most of the war between "them" and us (I assume "they" are Al-Qaeda but maybe there's something behind it), is fought non-violently, believe it or not. Most of it comes down to pressure. In some areas near where I live, Islam is the next big thing. Being part of a "Muslim gang" (contradiction?) is seen as "cool". And women who date Muslim men are seen as good in some way I just can't explain.

Most of the invasion is them peacefully integrating themselves into our culture, and then eventually pushing it aside and off the edge. Then you get a few terrorists who think (though mainly in Scandinavia, not here) we have a duty to be soft on them to avoid being racist, or who just have an inferiority complex (more common here) and want to rub in our faces that they are gaining control.

I think no mosque should be here, or on Ground Zero, or anywhere that isn't "Muslim land". If I want to experience different culture, I have the internet, or my passport, or a "middle ground" somewhere in the world. But I believe while they shouldn't be here, I will resist the urge to be a dumb racist buying into other people's ideology, and instead I will donate £5 a week to their flight home.

I think I will be aggressively flamed for this. But that's my life, I'll try not to get mad.

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#55181 - 05/29/11 05:26 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: SerialKeller]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City

"Most of the war between "them" and us (I assume "they" are Al-Qaeda but maybe there's something behind it), is fought non-violently, believe it or not."

Are you fucking kidding me?? Do you read the newspaper or watch television new programs??? Do you have any idea about current events that happen in America, England, Spain, Russia, and the Middle East???

"women who date Muslim men are seen as good in some way I just can't explain."

Why? because they might have money from back home? Chances are that unless they need a green card or whatever they have in Scotland, they won't let anything go beyond dating and fucking. They wont take a "white" woman home to their family as a wife, it would be a disgrace.

They are spreading and trying to influence laws and cultures because that is what every culture does. It either conquers or dies out once in a foreign land.

"But I believe while they shouldn't be here, I will resist the urge to be a dumb racist buying into other people's ideology, and instead I will donate £5 a week to their flight home."

Taking a stand isn't always racist. Sometimes you have to stand in what you believe even if it will be unpopular.

Nothing worth it is ever easy. The Satanic path sure as shit is hard, and unpopular.

Morgan
_________________________
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Fuck em if they can't take a joke
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#55186 - 05/29/11 05:43 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Morgan]
SerialKeller Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 19
Loc: Scotland
I'm glad you didn't flame me, Morgan.
I know there is a lot of violence done on the behalf of "Islam" (debatable), but when I said most of the war is fought non-violently, I didn't mean there isn't much violence. There's a lot of the war. Most of it is non-violently, or doesn't involve direct violence. We are being taught to "accept" them (also wrongly known as "being open-minded" and "welcoming"), before they can kill us.

Besides, I don't trust the news. I believe they wouldn't get away with lying completely, but I think they exaggerate so much. I would rather hear from victims and perpetrators themselves.

I know you live in the USA, and it's a little different for you than it is for Europe, but over here if a Muslim man takes a non-Muslim home, it's seen as a successful conversion most of the time, not a disgrace. Because most women won't convert him or his family, anyway. I think also if you look into it, you will see this in the USA, but I don't know. But most of it comes down to that wearing a big badge saying "Paki" makes you hard, or cool, or smooth, or desirable, apparently.

Specifically here in Glasgow, I noticed we are more hostile to the invasion than most other parts of the UK are, though, probably because we are conditioned to either be part of the mainstream "Normal" culture (through violence and pressure), or fight to be ourselves. So an outsider who tries to change us is a big NO for both.

I think we just can't turn our heads away from the "integration", just because there's bombing happening too.

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#55191 - 05/29/11 07:23 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: SerialKeller]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
Excerpt from:

Muslim Martyrs & Jihad

 Quote:
Muslim Martyrs & Jihad

Compiled by Jennifer King

2005/08/02

Islamic law is based on the Koran and the Sunnah, the life of Muhammad, which is recorded in the hadiths, traditions, the stories of Ibn Ishaq, Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim, and enforced in the Islamic fiqh, sharia law. Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, inspired a religious ideal of killing non-Muslims and death in Allah’s Cause, Holy War, Jihad. All Muslims who fight and kill infidels are obeying this obligatory religious law, copying the ‘perfect example’ of Muhammad, who was a professional bandit and warlord, the first and most successful of all Muslim terrorists.

ISLAMIC LAW: ISLAM Q&A

Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

These laws for all Muslims today explain that Jihad, holy war, is the highest virtue for Muslims ‘the pinnacle of Islam’. Martyrdom - fighting, killing infidels and dying for Islam is the very highest goal for all Muslims, the ‘perfect example’ of their prophet, Muhammad. Muslims who fight non-Muslims and die are the very best of all Muslims, the holy martyrs, shaheed, the only Muslims to attain Allah’s highest paradise. The Hypocrites are peaceful, tolerant Muslims who join or support non-Muslims in any way. They are the very worst Muslims, doomed to Allah’s hell.

RULINGS ON JIHAD:

Questions #8961,

Is jihad considered obligatory?

Answer:

Jihaad to make the word of Allaah supreme, to protect the religion of Islam, to enable spreading the faith and to protect the things it holds sacred, is an obligation upon everyone who is able to do it. If jihaad begins and the Muslims are mobilized, then everyone who is able should answer the call, sincerely for the sake of Allaah, hoping for truth to prevail and to protect Islam. Whoever holds back from that when the call has been made, with no valid excuse, is a sinner.

Question #5275,

Can we really participate in Jihaad when we don't have any khalifa to organise us, or we don't have the strength to fight them?


Answer :

Jihaad for the sake of Allaah is the pinnacle of Islam, and is one of the principles of the religion. It does not depend on there being an imaam (khaleefah or ruler)… But obviously jihaad requires preparation and organization, and the existence of a leader of the army who can weigh up the pros and cons.

Question #26125

What is the difference between "Jihad" and "Qitaal" ?.


Answer :

The word jihad is more general than the word qitaal (fighting). Jihaad may be with the tongue (by speaking out), or with weapons (which is qitaal or fighting) or with money. Each of these categories includes numerous subcategories.

Qitaal may only be done with weapons; it includes fighting the kaafirs, fighting the wrongdoers and fighting the Khawaarij.

The greatest kind of fighting is fighting those who disbelieve, for Allaah has commanded us to fight them. Allaah says:

“Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allaah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad), (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” 9:29

“O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you” 9:123

Jihaad against the kuffaar with weapons is of two types: jihad talab (offensive jihad) and jihad daf’ (defensive jihad).

Jihad talab means attacking the kuffaar in their own lands until they become Muslim or pay the jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been commanded to fight the people until they bear witness that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and establish regular prayer, and pay zakaah. If they do that, then they have protected their blood and their wealth from me, except in cases decreed by Islamic law, and their reckoning with be with Allaah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 25; Muslim, 20.

The second type is jihad al-daf’ (defensive jihad). If the enemy attacks a Muslim country or fights a Muslim country, then jihad is obligatory in that case. If the people of that country are able to undertake this obligation, then all well and good, and the others should support them.


What does this mean boys and girls? Regardless of their location, and what they want you to believe they are mandated to attack, or support anyone who attacks non believers. They support Jihad either by fleshly means, or financially.

They are using our laws and culture of tolerance against us to stage attacks, and create chaos. We, meaning society where you live has softened to the point where "we" turn the other cheek and hope what they say is what they mean. "Islam preaches peace"....

Yes, to other Muslims.

Even the now fish food Osama recorded speeches where he offered to coach the American people to conversion. This was an offering of peace, to submit to Muslim control and all attacks would cease. Osama was following Muslim law when he did this, as benevolent as he was. (Yes, that was sarcasm)

Believe what you will. I know what the agenda is. We are sleeping with the enemy, and we will all suffer for it.
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#55192 - 05/29/11 09:55 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
Regardless of their location, and what they want you to believe they are mandated to attack, or support anyone who attacks non believers. They support Jihad either by fleshly means, or financially.

They are using our laws and culture of tolerance against us to stage attacks, and create chaos. We, meaning society where you live has softened to the point where "we" turn the other cheek and hope what they say is what they mean. "Islam preaches peace"....


They? Arabs? Muslims? Muslim Arabs? American Muslims Arab-American Muslims?

Us? White people? White americans? Americans? Muslim Americans? Or dare I say, white Muslim Americans?


Edited by The Zebu (05/29/11 09:56 PM)
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#55193 - 05/29/11 10:00 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: The Zebu]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
All of the above.

When one says "Muslim" or Islam, I am bunching them all together. I didnt write the Koran, read it, or touch it even if it was on a bookshelf. "Their" holy book preaches Jihad. The location matters not. The race matters not. Just as in the bible, it attracts all walks of life and Christians come from all races and creeds.

White, black, purple, or fuzzy. Muslims.....

Jihad is a religious mandate. If they believe in their prophet, or their holy book.....and their role in it. I mean all of them.
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#55199 - 05/29/11 11:57 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: SerialKeller]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"Most of it is non-violently, or doesn't involve direct violence"

Really, how interesting....
Can you give examples of what the hell you are talking about?
Are you referring to propaganda from either side?

"I would rather hear from victims and perpetrators themselves."
Well, Osama is dead, as is my cousins husband, among others.
Do you own a Ouija board?

Does this mean you don't think the Holocaust happened either? Many of the perps and victims are dead. So if they are dead and you didn't meet them, it never happened?

Paki, like Pakistani? Those don't count. They primary stay here, run 7-11, like big white blonde chicks, and hardly are considered muslims. The main problem is with Arabic Muslims, which is what I was referring to.

"But most of it comes down to that wearing a big badge saying "Paki" makes you hard, or cool, or smooth, or desirable, apparently."

Really, lol, not here. That's the funniest thing I have heard all day.

"I think we just can't turn our heads away from the "integration", just because there's bombing happening too."

That was kinda the point of the article. They don't want a forced integration of a mosque anywhere near ground zero.

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#55212 - 05/30/11 12:43 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
I didnt write the Koran, read it, or touch it even if it was on a bookshelf.


So I can readily assume that you've only seen verses pulled out of context to make the Quran seem like a terrorist's handbook.

Won't even touch it? It's just a mass of paper splattered with ink. It won't bite you. Geez.

Does Moses 'mandate' the Jews to go out and kill Gentiles en masse? Even when terrorists themselves quote verses in support of "Jihadic extremism", they would not be doing so without the numerous political and cultural motives that compel them to preach violence. Appealing emotionally to the perceived injustice and tyranny of Western countries is obviously a much larger factor in fostering terrorist rhetoric.

Islam is not the Quran, just as Christianity is not the Bible.
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#55235 - 05/30/11 09:16 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: The Zebu]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
Out of context? I wouldn't say that is the case.

There has been more then one source for this information, and when one starts to see a pattern it is important to take notice. Just like the bible the Koran is open to interpretation.

As for not touching it.....its usually in Arabic. I dont speak Arabic. Second why would I touch it, it holds no value to me at all. So I ignore it completely as a object. Since I cannot translate its writing, I have little choice but to read what others have transcribed from its contents for themselves.

Comparing Moses to Mohammed is a flawed analogy. They were contextually and philosophically different people. And for the record Muslims hating Jews is still current news in case you dont listen to news from the middle east. Ive been to Israel during my tours of the military. I was in Haifa when Rabin was assassinated by one of his own people. In Islams defense it isnt just a one sided event.

Would be terrorists know only what their local Imams tell them. Most dont have the internet, or TV when they grow up so they are immersed in a world of religious rhetoric. Just like kids in America who go to bible camp. Look for a film called "Jesus camp" and you will see what I mean. This all goes way beyond mere words in a book.

There is always an element of truth in rumors and lies.

That statement above is a tool I use when I go about my life. I never take everything at face value, and take the time to learn all I can before I pass judgement on something. My view of Muslims has been long in coming by what I have seen around the world with my own eyes, and not from books. Not all Muslims are evil. But...

Im not going to take the chance, or let my guard down around them for the fear that's the ruse they use which opens the doors for harm. To ignore the possibility is exactly how terrorists succeed in killing and causing chaos. Exploiting our vulnerability and unwillingness to see through the camouflage.

You keep your views...mine have kept me alive thus far.
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#55240 - 05/31/11 01:09 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
As for not touching it.....its usually in Arabic. I dont speak Arabic. Second why would I touch it, it holds no value to me at all.


You see your life as being potentially threatened by Islamic jihadists, but don't see a point in examining what is ostensibly a major pillar of their ideology and thus invaluable in getting to know your avowed enemy?

 Quote:
And for the record Muslims hating Jews is still current news in case you dont listen to news from the middle east.


I have several Israeli friends; been there, done that; from what I can tell most Israeli Muslims aren't anti-Jewish or trying to blow themselves up every five seconds. Of course, the total sum of middle-eastern Jewish/Muslim relations is still overwhelmingly hostile, but I think it's still somewhat dishonest to bunch everyone together.

Jewish extremists are just as terrifying as their Islamic counterparts, although they are a smaller presence. Moses is admittedly different from Mohammad, but both Jewish and Quranic texts can be said to endorse a campaign of Holy War against nonbelievers, and a reading of their respective scriptures with this confirmation bias in mind will obviously show it. Both parties have invoked these scriptures to justify their violence against the other. The main difference is that many disenfranchised Arab Muslims feel more threatened by Israel and the West than the other way around. It doesn't matter who has the nastier book; whoever's on the bottom is going to lash out more.

I also have too many Muslim friends to make blanket judgements based on a single label, because I've seen how frustrating it is for them to be treated like "sleeper terrorists" just because of their race and creed.

I'm basically saying that the Quran is only a partial catalyst in the overall situation, and that greeting Muslims with a priori fear and hostility only creates rifts and exacerbates the problem.

I'm not trying to be all hyper-egalitarian or anything; I accept that mankind's less noble prejudices are the natural result of a healthy sense of self-preservation. I suppose I just have a tendency to highlight all the nuances of an issue.


Edited by The Zebu (05/31/11 01:15 AM)
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#55243 - 05/31/11 10:10 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:

As for not touching it.....its usually in Arabic. I dont speak Arabic. Second why would I touch it, it holds no value to me at all. So I ignore it completely as a object. Since I cannot translate its writing, I have little choice but to read what others have transcribed from its contents for themselves.

Seriously? That's one of your excuses? Whatever happened to "know thy enemy?" If you aren't knowledgeable about something (not necessarily an expert, but at least well-versed), then how does that help your credibility in a debate? Or refuting the various points of individual Suras? Just as many atheists can pull quotes from Scripture to suit their needs and highlight the inherent hypocrisies of those which Christians like to tout, the same should be done with Islam and the Quran. Just because you don't trust the English interpretations, is not a good enough reason to eschew reading it at all.

 Quote:
Would be terrorists know only what their local Imams tell them. Most dont have the internet, or TV when they grow up so they are immersed in a world of religious rhetoric.

Quite a few would-be terrorists come from families which are well-off and have access to the internet and resources to donate to terrorist organizations. There are hundreds of these websites on the web today. What do you think the CIA and FBI are monitoring? How else do you think they stay on top of possible attacks? On top of being schooled in fundamental interpretations of Islam, these recruits are often motivated by political disaffection with the West (the US in particular), and are more than willing to match political belief with religious teachings. It's not the other way around (ie, inspired by religious indoctrination), as you are suggesting.
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#55250 - 05/31/11 10:41 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Nemesis]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
In general:

This is a conflict which won't be solved through debate. You can do your best and provide the most rational and reasonable arguments available against Sharia, if they respond with “it's the law of Allah” you're arguing with a rock. And that's the problem.

I'm no fan of multiculturalism and prefer cultural separatism. There's yours, here's ours; fuck with us and we will wipe you out. Of course this comes with accepting they do it their way there and don't need to submit to ours and that's also a part of the problem these days; we're too willing to believe everyone out there wants an iPod, Big Mac and diet Coke. Maybe they don't.

But down here is my territory and it is fucked up already as it is. The last thing I need, after chasing the priests out of influence, is another adorer telling me what or what not I can do. You don't like it here, piss off to where you came from.

Of course these ideas directly identify me as a racist pig; if I'd be human I'd embrace and cuddle that what wants to stab me in the belly.

And to answer a priori; yes there are moderate ones out there but the fact that they're so darn great at being silent says enough me thinks.

D.

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#55251 - 05/31/11 10:47 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Nemesis]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu

I also have too many Muslim friends to make blanket judgements based on a single label, because I've seen how frustrating it is for them to be treated like "sleeper terrorists" just because of their race and creed.


I think an excellent visual reference of this is the movie "Under Siege" with Denzel Washington. One might interpret the movie to be a cause to not group all the Muslims in together for the crimes and radicalism of a few. But dont miss the more important, but hidden point I was hinting towards. The sleeper agent who had befriended a CIA operative and used this association to further their goals. Not all Muslims are criminals. I think as a ethnic group they count for fewer petty crimes then most here in the US and abroad. But to ignore the possibility that one of those you trust might be a bad egg is wrong. Defending your friends is noble, and I too, would do such a thing if I felt the one slamming their people were dead wrong.

We could further infer that all races and creeds have their extremists, and Muslims shouldnt be singled out for ridicule and racial profiling. This is true, without a doubt. But in regards to this thread....

I couldnt personally stomach a Mosque being erected right over the ashes of thousands of dead Americans simply because it raises the image of their Prophet Mohammed standing at ground zero with a foot placed on the neck of the fallen dead.

I dont "hate" Muslims. But you cant make me trust them, unless I know without a doubt they are 'one of the nice ones".

 Originally Posted By: Nemesis

Seriously? That's one of your excuses? Whatever happened to "know thy enemy?" If you aren't knowledgeable about something (not necessarily an expert, but at least well-versed), then how does that help your credibility in a debate? Or refuting the various points of individual Suras? Just as many atheists can pull quotes from Scripture to suit their needs and highlight the inherent hypocrisies of those which Christians like to tout, the same should be done with Islam and the Quran. Just because you don't trust the English interpretations, is not a good enough reason to eschew reading it at all.


I chose not to read the Koran/Qur'an/etc by choice. I also choose not to read alot of Philosophy books just for a few meaningful sentences which could be found in more specific venues or books. I dont trust the Qur'an as much as I dont trust the bible. Having picked that one up multiple times simply because I had to was an overrated experience. I have since thrown all my copies away. This doesnt mean I have closed my mind to their messages. It just means that literally; I have no purpose for them as objects to be owned, or touched.

Eschewing the Qur'an in its entirety would be the same as doing the same to the Satanic Bible. As much of the world has done. Your point in that regard is valid. But I didnt clarify enough that this wasn't part of my statement. I am sure there are some of us who wont read the Qur'an either. I dont have to read it to know its teachings aren't for me. And I assure you I dont harass or pummel Muslims when I run into them, which is quite often.

 Originally Posted By: Nemesis

Quite a few would-be terrorists come from families which are well-off and have access to the internet and resources to donate to terrorist organizations. There are hundreds of these websites on the web today. What do you think the CIA and FBI are monitoring? How else do you think they stay on top of possible attacks? On top of being schooled in fundamental interpretations of Islam, these recruits are often motivated by political disaffection with the West (the US in particular), and are more than willing to match political belief with religious teachings. It's not the other way around (ie, inspired by religious indoctrination), as you are suggesting.


What troubles me more, at least on a American front is the growing trend for home grown terrorists. Born from American families, educated in the best schools and universities and going off to the middle east to train and learn how to kill their fellow Americans.

As bad as this might sound you dont see converted Christians from other countries plotting mass murders of their own kind.

Mosque at ground zero. No way. Commit the atrocities which were willingly suffered by the Japanese during WWII in this country is out of the question. Tolerance is learned over time, and cant be expected to happen overnight. But I think a little tolerance on the part of the Jihads would help the process along. But you have to admit its sort of ironic when Jihads hire Jewish lawyers to defend them. (although I know why)
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#55262 - 05/31/11 12:34 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
I couldnt personally stomach a Mosque being erected right over the ashes of thousands of dead Americans simply because it raises the image of their Prophet Mohammed standing at ground zero with a foot placed on the neck of the fallen dead.


What about all the innocent Muslims killed in the WTC?

Secondly, I think it's been made emphatically clear that it's not strictly a Mosque, nor is it on Ground Zero. I can guarantee that you're not going to have any extremist ideologues there there because they know that watchdog groups will be trolling the shit out of them.


Edited by The Zebu (05/31/11 12:38 PM)
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#55368 - 06/01/11 09:55 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: The Zebu]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
It is widely known that Muslims killed at the WTC were seen as martyrs for the cause and to me it was left at that. The Muslim world didnt seem to be too taken aback by it. On the other hand Patterson NJ was on the news shortly after the towers fell, with the whole Muslim community cheering and dancing in the streets.

Those are Muslims, residing in the US, earning a living here, sending some of that money overseas and this is their reaction to all those people dying?
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