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#41369 - 08/03/10 01:29 PM Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero?
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Looks like this project has cleared another hurdle.

All religious considerations aside, do you see this as progress or a thumb in the eye?

Personally, I'm for the latter simply because it feels a lot like turning the other cheek to me.

What say you 600 Club?

 Quote:

New York City Panel Clears Way for Mosque Near Ground Zero:

A New York City panel voted unanimously Tuesday to reject landmark status for a building near the World Trade Center site, paving the way for construction of a mosque and an Islamic community center.

Rest of the article
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#41370 - 08/03/10 01:54 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
Not a citizen of the US, but considering this article I would see it as a thumb in the eye and a victory for Islam.

It is a start of the degradation of Western culture the way I see it (those not familiar with my views on cultural and racial matters --> clickie ).
I hope this will turn out to be a joke. And otherwise I will agree with the first redneck who sets fire and starts shooting at the mosque.


Edited by Dimitri (08/03/10 02:00 PM)
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#41372 - 08/03/10 01:56 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't think allowing yet another symbol of submission can really be called progress can it?

It again shows those Lefties prefer to add blood supplies to a cancer instead of starving it.

D.

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#41373 - 08/03/10 02:30 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
Mainstream America seems to be for freedom of religion only where Christianity is concerned. To deny Muslims the right to build their mosque is to go against the principle of equality stated (but often not followed) in the Constitution.

I don’t see this as turning the other cheek, because (presumably) the Muslims who want to build the mosque weren’t involved in the terrorist attack. These are, as far as we know, law-abiding citizens who simply want to build someplace to peacefully assemble for purposes of religious expression.

I say let the Muslims have their mosque, but keep an eye on them. As Ronald Reagan said, trust but verify.
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#41374 - 08/03/10 02:39 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: William Wright]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Religious extremists (goes the official version) attacked the financial center of the US.

Proponents of that same religion then seek to build a place of worship where that financial center used to be.

Do you not see that as symbolic of a victory of religion over commerce?

Why pick that exact location?
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#41375 - 08/03/10 02:44 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: William Wright]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
I don’t see this as turning the other cheek, because (presumably) the Muslims who want to build the mosque weren’t involved in the terrorist attack. These are, as far as we know, law-abiding citizens who simply want to build someplace to peacefully assemble for purposes of religious expression.

Well you might see them as not being involved in the terrorist attacks, but I can imagine many other people who will see it the other way. I mean, the attacks after all were being done by muslims.

Law-abiding citizens? I have noticed that when letting foreign cultures "invade" a country and give them the freedom to practice their religion a certain respect is being blackmailed from both the countries leaders and from the "invaders". (As noticed here in Belgium/Europe). The persons at long term will somehow push forth certain rules of honour and conduct which are alien, and sometimes considered amoral, within the invaded country thus leading towards certain conflicts which could have otherwise been evaded.

I think the particular behaviour of moving towards a foreign country and slowly implementing rules, guidelines and ideas from the original culture as the numbers of ghettos and people multiply was a strategy of psychological warfare.
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#41379 - 08/03/10 03:00 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
I think putting *any* religious edifice on Ground Zero is an affront to the bereaved. I don't care if said bereaved would like a church, temple or ecumenical place of worship - it would still demean the place.


That's what I was thinking when I framed the conversation "religious considerations aside"... it may be a mistake on my part to attempt this discussion outside of a religious context since 9/11 happened within one.

I was in full support of rebuilding the towers exactly as they stood before. Not sure what happened to that plan.

I'll check out that movie, thanks for the recommendation.
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#41380 - 08/03/10 03:10 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
I was in full support of rebuilding the towers exactly as they stood before. Not sure what happened to that plan.

Or as a Belgian comedian once said:
"Rebuild it twice the height, twice as big as the ones before with a huge target in the middle just to fuck with their minds. And maybe put a pita-shop on top of it".

Bad translation and more funny parts are lost because of it, but it sure shows more attitude..
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#41382 - 08/03/10 03:32 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I don't give a shit about what happened on 9/11. I wasn't hurt and neither was anyone that I care about. Still I feel that building a mosque at the site would be, at the very least, a tacky move. And certainly not a very intelligent one; if they do build it I can guarantee that it will not stand for very long without being vandalized in one way or another.

My reasons for being against the building of the mosque is very different from the reason most people would hold. I am not a fan of Islam, at all. I have always been against organized religion but lately Islam has been the focus of resentment for obvious reasons.

That being said I would be against the building of a mosque anywhere except for the Middle East and only if they promised to stay the fuck over there and not come anywhere near me. They can hate me all they want for whatever reason and if they love their shitty "holy land" so much they should remain there. I have no desire to go to that crappy desert so if they stay there then there is no reason for us to be in conflict with each other.
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#41384 - 08/03/10 04:12 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Knievel74 Offline
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Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
I'm against it. I live in NY and was there on 9/11. It's a slap in the face to the victims and the victims families of the attacks. As a matter of fact, there's a street in Queens that has a lot of middle eastern restaurants and when news of the attacks reached the partons and workers they went out onto the streets and started cheering.

It's a tasteless thing to do and shows no respect for what happened. I'm especially disgusted that anyone living in NYC would even entertain the idea.

European countries that have let Muslims enter unchecked are now having problems with them because the Muslins are trying to change the values and ideals of those countries. The same thing will happen to NYC.
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#41386 - 08/03/10 05:07 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Knievel74]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I have to agree with Knievel. I live in New York, and its fucked up. It's not about religion, its about MONEY. The mayor even said he won't look into where their money comes from because its a religious group.
It's fucking sad, but money rules, nothing else matters.

On a side note, I read that they won't build a mosque on a site where pigs are buried or kept. I think people should just start leaving slaughter house remains there. OHHH, maybe open up a roasted pig bar-be-que joint next door. When they go to worship, they can smell the deep rich smell of cooking pig. With hog heads in the window. \:\)

M
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Fuck em if they can't take a joke
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#41392 - 08/03/10 07:34 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
zippadydooda Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 61
Loc: San Diego, California
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
Apparently, Muslim patriots do exist.


I wouldn't call them patriots.

Yet to ensure due freedom for everyone, the freedom of each must be curbed, restrained and regulated.


^ That's not freedom.

As for the building of any mosque or religious center at Ground Zero, I see that move as diametrically opposed to the American way, and more importantly, my personal beleifs.

If this plan goes through, I hope the building gets hit by an airplane.
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#41393 - 08/03/10 07:44 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Morgan]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Sounds like some aspiring activist should 'bacon' (as opposed to 'egg') the building. Churches and Synagogues are routinely vandalized in the US. Welcome to America bitches!

Besides, throwing bacon at a building would only be littering as opposed to the more permanent vandalism of spray painting or other property damage. Hell, the whole campaign could go viral. New Yorkers could drop all sorts of porcine trash off at the front door of the Mosque - potted meat, SPAM, pork rinds, any sort of old sandwich with bacon on it, the butt end of a 'dirty water dog.' Oh, the possibilities are endless.

I hope they do build this thing. This sounds like it could be a lot of fun!
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#41394 - 08/03/10 08:11 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
[MindWar Rant Mode ON]

This entire situation has been handled unbelievably idiotically since 9/11 happened. Bush & Co. chose to contextualize it as a "radical Islam" thing instead of what it should have been: an international criminal thing (like drug cartels, the Mafia, etc.). So we attacked two Islamic nations (neither of which as a nation attacked us), and have gloriously managed to infuriate, hence "radicalize", far more Muslims than Osama bL could ever have fantasized. And Islam is big: about 1-1/2 billion worldwide/about 22% of the world's population. Talk about the stupidest choice of an enemy you could possibly set out to aggravate.

This is great for the military/industrial complex and for politicians who control their constituents through fear; it gives them a nice, permanent war, which is what they were desperately looking for when the previous boogeyman, "Communism!", collapsed at the end of the '80s.

Do most Westerners (by which we really mean European-style Christians) like Islam? No. So what? Who says that everybody has to like everybody else's religion, dietary choices, love/sex practices, or otherwise-lifestyles? Don't like a particular country's style, don't go there.

"Terrorism!" is a knee-jerk propaganda term, nothing more. All the more OhMyGodding because it has the word "terror" in it, which everyone knows is scary. But what is the phenomenon actually? Just fighting by groups which aren't official government armies and don't wear uniforms. In the '60s we used to call them "guerrillas", which was Che Guevara-cool. In my day the Special Forces could work either with or against Gs, whichever was more convenient; indeed SF was originally conceived to create and train Gs, just like the WW2 undergrounds.

Then the concept morphed into "insurgents" and "counterinsurgency" since as it turned out the USA got into the habit of suppressing change rather than facilitating it around the world. Today it's all simplified as Tism, which means everybody operating outside of the established government club, no matter what jerks some of those clubmembers happen to be.

So if this whole mess had been handled by monolith-enhanced dolphins, it wouldn't make a damned bit of difference what sort of religious building is planned near Ground Zero. We would just be after the individuals who did the crime, as criminals.

[MindWar Rant Mode OFF]
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#41399 - 08/03/10 10:08 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fist]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1139
Loc: Amarillo, TX
Daisy Khan, who's building the mosque, claims she wants to "start the healing." If she's genuine about that, she should realize how poorly this gesture is being received and make plans to build it somewhere else. It's just socially retarded for her to continue on with building it there when she knows it's pissing so many people off. She's not going to "start the healing" by flagrantly ignoring people's feelings.

The movement against the mosque attempted to make a rickety old building a landmark because it happened to be hit by some of the debris. We all saw the news; that debris got all over the place. I can understand being pissed off about a mosque near ground zero, but was the commission really supposed to rule that "debris=landmark" in order to prevent the construction of one mosque? Imagine the further implications of such a ruling. I can imagine vindictive Muslims trying to get other debris-hit buildings labeled "landmarks" when someone else tries to build something in the general area, just to try and hold the commission accountable to its ruling.
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#41401 - 08/03/10 11:36 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
What are they trying to Americanize the builders now? The guy who used to be in charge of the project had a very Arabic name, now Daisy is doing it. lol

It has nothing to do with healing. It's about shoving a mosque right next to the place they blew up because it represented America. It's a slap in the face, and a kiss my ass gesture.

The idea to landmark it was done/pushed after the community board passed the measure that would allow it to be built. People objected at that meeting, but money talks. The building is about 154 years old, they tried it as a way to block the mosque but they failed.

If they would try the "vindictive" landmark act as you say, they would fail. Getting anything landmarked in New York is almost impossible. The landmark/preservation committee can't even agree on what toilet paper to buy. I don't know of any building they have landmarked in a long ass time.

I like Fist's idea of tossing bacon.
MMMMMmmmmmm, bacon.
Might even end up being a tourist destination/rite of passage.
Bacon a mosque and get a souvenir ticket for littering.
\:\)


Morgan
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#41439 - 08/04/10 02:24 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Morgan]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Nashville
Legal considerations aside, I agree that the move to build a mosque near Ground Zero is incredibly tacky. I mean, of all the places in New York to build, why there? A group truly committed to reconciliation would take the hint and build somewhere else. If the group made a public statement that they were voluntarily moving the location out of respect for those killed on 9/11, it would cast American Muslims in a more positive light in NY and around the country. As it is, they’re creating a PR disaster.

One might wonder if there’s something more dastardly here than a simple “it’s private property, we can build here if we want." Perhaps the group wants retaliation, be it in the form of bacon or planes or whatever, because it perpetuates the idea of jihad. If so, then they may just get their wish.
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#41447 - 08/04/10 06:17 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: William Wright]
Knievel74 Offline
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Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
I worked as a foot messenger years ago and used to deliver letters and packages to the WTC several times a day. When it finally sank in regarding what happened that day my thoughts not only went to the office workers and the FDNY and NYPD but also to the kid from the local deli who was delivering breakfast to someone in one of the buildings. Or the bike or foot messenger who had to go into the buildings to deliver a letter to one of the offices. They were mudered too.

If anyone wants to have a pig roast in front of the mosque, I'm there.
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#41457 - 08/05/10 05:52 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: William Wright]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1139
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
Legal considerations aside, I agree that the move to build a mosque near Ground Zero is incredibly tacky. I mean, of all the places in New York to build, why there? A group truly committed to reconciliation would take the hint and build somewhere else. If the group made a public statement that they were voluntarily moving the location out of respect for those killed on 9/11, it would cast American Muslims in a more positive light in NY and around the country. As it is, they’re creating a PR disaster.


Exactly. Daisy is either being insincere about her desire for reconciliation or she's thicker than a brick.

 Originally Posted By: William Wright
One might wonder if there’s something more dastardly here than a simple “it’s private property, we can build here if we want." Perhaps the group wants retaliation, be it in the form of bacon or planes or whatever, because it perpetuates the idea of jihad. If so, then they may just get their wish.


I can definitely see that being the case. A lot of groups with victim mentalities seem to go out trying to provoke people so they can whine about how everybody's out to get them. You may be on to something here. I can totally see Daisy working up some crocodile tears with a liberal news org after someone throws a rack of pork ribs at them.

...OK the image of a rack of pork ribs sailing through the air just made me chuckle.

On that note, I think the Jack in the Box supreme croissant has both ham and bacon on it, right?
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#41459 - 08/05/10 07:55 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
A similar idea is currently used and triggers some controversy in France.
A local politician in France wants to organize an anti-Islamic "Pork-meat Party" in Orléans. On the invitation it says there will be lots of pork meat and alcohol to make sure there will only be friends at the party.

I assume this "controversial" party or the intent of organizing such a thing will hit the other news channels shortly.

D.

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#41460 - 08/05/10 08:05 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38565270

"The leader of the Cordoba Initiative, one of the groups planning to build the mosque, is Imam Fiesal Abdul Rauf. " Daisy is his wife. I think that summs up anything she has to say. It all comes from her husband, with her husbands permission.

"There is a tradition in Muslim history to build mosques near the site of great victories."

Pig roasts, bacon tossing, and a bar-be-que joint next door.

In a way its really fucked up. New York is kinda broke and needs jobs, but how the fuck do you ask American's to build a mosque near the trade centers and not think its a victory for the other side? Money/food on the table verses the right thing to do by turning down that job.

We are so screwed....

M
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#41463 - 08/05/10 10:08 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Morgan]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Laura Ingraham & Daisy Khan at first discussing the ignorant people who are non-believers, and then the motivations for building a mosque close to the ground zero site.

Daisy spins it as a thumbing of the nose, of sorts, at the extremists who she says are being allowed to define muslims as a whole.

Her husband is one of the main proponents for bringing sharia law into America, though. She can try to be the face of peace all she wants, but as soon as they try to subjugate the law of the land with their antiquated bullshit it's time to stop pretending. We only need to look to some European countries as an example of how this all plays out.

Edit:
Dennis Miller's pretty damn funny take on the whole situation.



Edited by Fnord (08/05/10 10:48 AM)
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#41464 - 08/05/10 10:44 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Sharia Law in the US is sure to piss off a lot of people, myself included. If Muslims want to live somewhere under Sharia Law they can go to their piece of shit desert. That shit has no business over here in the "civilized" world.
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#41468 - 08/05/10 12:06 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1737
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Sharia Law in the US is sure to piss off a lot of people, myself included. If Muslims want to live somewhere under Sharia Law they can go to their piece of shit desert. That shit has no business over here in the "civilized" world.


Well if I was one of the construction workers working on that thing, and since I just love pork, I'd make sure that I accidently dropped a few pounds of bacon or ham in the cement mix everyday. I'm just clumsy like that.

On a side note, this thread is really pissing me off.
<----Oh hey look, it's Mohamed choking on a piece of bacon!!


Edited by Asmedious (08/05/10 12:24 PM)
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#41480 - 08/05/10 03:28 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Asmedious]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
If you wanted to REALLY go the extra mile you could fuck a pig inside the mosque while they are all praying. To add to it I suggest using bacon grease a lube.

Yes, that's right; this thread is now about bestiality.
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#41486 - 08/05/10 05:07 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Seems to me that if the 1st Amendment doesn't work for one, it doesn't work for all. And Freedom of Speech was championed precisely for incidents like this.

It wasn't for all people's benefit all of the time... although it IS applicable to all of the people all of the time... but for those instances where those in the minority, no matter how onerous that minority might be, might be silenced or sanctioned because of government disfavor or because they don't represent what the "core beliefs" of the society might be.

We endure hate speech and inappropriate presence daily and at times there have been years of litigations and in some cases eruptions of violence. We tolerate the KKK and Neo Nazi groups hate speech... and protest loudly against it... because they have a right to their opinions, just as we have a right to ours. We tolerate the asinine and highly inappropriate insertions of people like the Reverend Fred Phelps and his obnoxious behavior at the funeral services of US soldiers, claiming that their deaths are somehow related to tolerance of homosexuality. Street corner nut-job preachers, televangelists on cable where presumable we pay to allow things we want to watch into our homes... the list could go on and on.

Now granted, the idea of a mosque this close to a place that has become almost sanctified in its historical importance to the cultural psyche of the nation is a BAD idea. But it's private property and it's a religious organization that has all of the same rights and privileges as any other within the United States. And yes, I know that it's a slap in the face to 3,000 people killed at the hands of suicide bombers. I'll grant you that. And I'll say that I'm dead against it on a personal level.

But if the United States is going to be what it purports itself to be and not just some hollow words on a document from 234 years ago, we have to put our money where our mouth is, even if it leaves a bad taste in our mouth. We don't HAVE to like it. We don't HAVE to support it, but if we ARE "the home of the brave and the land of the free," we'll have to tolerate it.

That's not to say that every man, woman and child in America doesn't have the right to protest in front of the mosque 24 hours a day, so long as they stay within the letter of the law. That's not to say that every building and city code should not be checked, and that each "i" must be dotted and "t" crossed. That's not to say that noise abatements cannot and should not be enforced when the calls to prayer are blasted from loudspeakers, or that parking shouldn't be strictly enforced, or that any number of city ordinances be applied, just as they would be for anyone else.

And that's not to say that we shouldn't commandeer and establish the building next door for an FBI field office, brightly lit... with security cameras that catch the image of people coming and going. There are sensors these days that can detect nitrates and other bomb equipment from outside of buildings...

But we ARE a nation that champions freedom of religion and freedom of speech. We can't allow ourselves to deny it to others without denying it to ourselves.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#41487 - 08/05/10 08:15 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Jake999]
Oxus Offline
member


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 510
Lawsuit challenges Ground Zero mosque Article

 Quote:
A quote from the article: "The existing building is owned by the Cordoba Initiative, a Muslim outreach group, and already serves as a site where prayer services are held. The group wants to demolish the existing structure and build a "$100 million, 13-story community center with Islamic, interfaith and secular programming," the Cordoba Initiative website says."
Hmmm, maybe some other extremist group could take out that building one day? . . . I'm just saying!


Ir Shti Shta-tu
Oxus

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#41488 - 08/05/10 08:29 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Oxus]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
An extremist group could take any building any day. You can't live your life on what ifs. What if Al Queda moves into the building? Or one 20 miles away as the Islamic American Society? Or as something else totally innocuous?

If you cross the street and a Mack Truck might run you down? The answer isn't to ban Mack Trucks. The answer is look both ways, be prepared and act to protect yourself if something goes wrong.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#41491 - 08/05/10 10:30 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Jake999]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Thank you Jake. Voice of reason you are.

I am always surprised by how quickly many US citizens are reaching for the constitution, when they lack toilet paper.
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Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#41504 - 08/06/10 05:07 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Don't get me wrong, Maw. If it turns out that that presumably innocent mosque turns out to be a den of vipers, and an assault on American citizens or institutions are launched or initiated from there, I will be the first to demand that any sanctuary status that might be conferred will be stripped and the place be razed to the ground in an operation that would make Waco look like a school picnic.

The Constitution gives them the right to worship and to peacefully engage in their religious practices. But nowhere in the Constitution does it give any religious entity the right to wage war against the citizens or the nation.

When we take our military oath, we swear to defend against all enemies, foreign or domestic. Domestic enemies give up their right to protection once they bite the hand that feeds them.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#41510 - 08/06/10 06:52 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Jake999]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Whatever happens, it will all turn out bad.
Theses are people who still believe in stoning women to death.
Think all women are chattel, and being gay is punishable by death.
They celebrated when the towers came down.

You want religious freedom, fine. Build the fucker a little distance away from the towers site. Show some taste, class, and respect for the community of dead Americans. After all you live in America now, and by default you are American's. Act like it.
You come to our country, accept our laws, and our culture. If you want Sharia law stay in the middle east.

You can't have it both ways, being protected by the Constitution, then pissing on it when you don't like the rest of what it says.

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#41512 - 08/06/10 08:51 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Morgan]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1139
Loc: Amarillo, TX
Even the supposedly liberal, tolerant Muslims have some issues. Muzzammil Hassan was the founder of Bridges TV, a network founded shortly after September 11 with the intention of counteracting violent stereotypes of Muslims. The show was canceled after he beheaded his wife.

Facepalm does not even begin to describe my reaction. You couldn't make this shit up. The Onion could never dream of a soundbite that ironic.
_________________________
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#41514 - 08/06/10 09:45 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
If I might borrow a quote from Stan Lee: "with great power comes great responsibility."

Do they have the right to build the thing where they want to build it? Indeed, it appears that they do. Jake is right, if it's a matter of legality and if it passes all attached legal criteria, then we as supporters of the constitution should also support the right for them to build the damn thing, even if it is a stick in the eye.

The underlying question is not one of *can* they build it, it's a question of *should* they build it. Personally speaking, I can't think of a reason that's not suspect for them to choose that particular location. It's to be a 13 storey monument to insensitivity IMHO, and I believe the motivation for doing this is precisely to underscore the idea that islam scored a victory by toppling a financial center and replacing it with a place of worship.

As Dennis Miller alludes to, I hope it's as noisy and uncomfortable for them as possible.
_________________________
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#41515 - 08/06/10 10:28 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
I must say, as an American Patriot who actually believes in all of that stuff I swore to uphold and defend, I am a bit flattered that our European friends also hold our founding documents in such high regard.

For years the Left in this country would engage in 'peaceful' protest (Freedom of Assembly and the Right to Petition the Government for Redress of Grievance) by throwing urine, stool, used tampons and all sorts of other thing. The anti-globalists routinely destroy and vandalize McDonalds.

So, I see no reason why a some simple littering with pork products would not be completely consistent with our nation values.

Of course, those Lefties may really be on to something. The blood of menstruation is horrifying to Muslim men. It is from a woman (and we know how they feel about 'them') and it is blood which is Haram (unclean/forbidden/anti-Islamic). Imagine the shock and horror of finding a big used Kotex on their front stoop! "Oops, sorry. It must have fallen out. You know how dirty we women are."
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#41516 - 08/06/10 10:57 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fist]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
The Muslims do have every right to build the mosque there, the First Amendment guarantees it. Just like Volksfront has every right to preach their racist/sexist/anti-semetic/homophobic values, the First Amendment guarantees that as well. However, the First Amendment does not guarantee that they won't get punched in the mouth if I don't like what they have to say.

The point being that while the Muslims can build a mosque wherever they want they should at least be a little smarter when picking the location.
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#41518 - 08/06/10 12:50 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1737
Loc: New York
On one hand I agree with Jake’s point. But there is something I find very wrong with his idea as well, that I just can’t quite put my finger on.

Isn’t the Constitution there for the citizens of the United States, for those who believe in it?

Does the Constitution protect those individuals who do not believe in it and seek to destroy it? Should a religion that is so anti personal freedom as Islam is, and one that evidently has no respect for the ideology behind the constitution, still deserve its protection and consideration?

What if Muslims were able to buy the site of the World Trade Center, and decided to build the worlds tallest Mosque on the site? Theoretically they would be within their rights to do that as well.

Then again, there are Muslims in the U.S military who theoretically would lay down their lives for the constitution.

I am totally torn between the two view points here, and cannot decide if my utmost respect for the U.S Constitution outweighs my utmost hate for Islam.

I do believe that although the Constitution does protect Islam’s right to exist, Islam in turn will destroy the Constitution which protects it, if given the opportunity.

My gut tells me, “Fuck Islam and their rights to religion, for it seeks to destroy MY rights.”
Reason tells me, “The land in question is owned by Muslims, and if I truly believe in freedom, let them have their way, because freedom is more important then patriotism and ego.”

It seems to me that the price of freedom is allowing it to be destroyed by those who don’t even respect it. That’s a big fucking price to pay.

An interesting and perhaps appropriate example of how things are going, is that on the bottom of my screen on the 600 club, there is an advertisement for “Muslim Singles,” and as I write this, there are about a dozen Muslim women with sheets on their heads smiling at me.
I want to vomit!!
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#41533 - 08/06/10 08:08 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Asmedious]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1139
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
My gut tells me, “Fuck Islam and their rights to religion, for it seeks to destroy MY rights.”
Reason tells me, “The land in question is owned by Muslims, and if I truly believe in freedom, let them have their way, because freedom is more important then patriotism and ego.”


They have the right to practice their religion and, as pointed out by several, others have the right to have a cookout next door featuring bacon, pork sausage, BBQ ribs, ham hocks, and plenty of booze. I see your freedom of religion and raise you freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and the Ninth Amendment right to eat meat that is not halal.

One person's freedom ends where it starts to interfere with another's freedom. The second somebody starts talking Sharia law, they've overstepped their rights. Until then, nobody has the right not to be offended, but we all have the right to offend. So we return the favor.
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#41534 - 08/06/10 08:11 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
The U.S. Constitution is a glorious political document. It is also, like every other glorious political document in history, enshrined and invoked when it is convenient and ignored/ reinterpreted when it is not. That's what power-politics is all about.

The Islamic religion did not destroy the World Trade Center any more than the Christian religion destroyed Hiroshima, Guernica, or Dresden. People did, for political reasons. If you want to characterize those actions as "criminal" instead of "legitimately political", you can make that decision as at Nuremberg; but always the victors just judge the vanquished.

Satanists are supposed to know better, think better, and do better than this.

In the eyes of the Christian West, does Islam oppress women? Sure. Now ask a Muslim what he thinks about the plight of Western women. He will say, "It's impossible for a Western woman to get anywhere in life unless she dresses, paints herself up, starves herself, surgically modifies her body, and behaves like a whore. Successful ones in business have to sleep, trick, entice, and deceive their way to the top. Women who just wish a marriage and children find that marriages are endable on whim, children are abandoned or used as bargaining-chips, elder family members are warehoused out of sight, and a loyal wife's fading beauty is jettisoned for a 'trophy' replacement or mistress. Want to see how dangerous it is to be a woman in the USA? Go here."

Once again the cold, hard truth is that men habitually, routinely, and carelessly oppress women in every culture, in every religion, all around the globe. Women endure this, do their best to work around it, because that's all they can do. But it's a lousy, cruel, stacked deck; and it's been dealt them all through history [with two exceptions: ancient Crete and ancient Egypt, in which the sexes were equally respected and empowered].

By the way, what religious fanatics were trying to frame, imprison, and exterminate all Satanists, witches, and neopagans in the West in the 1980s? I don't recall a single Muslim or Islamic organization in that lynch-mob.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#41538 - 08/06/10 08:32 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1139
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Once again the cold, hard truth is that men habitually, routinely, and carelessly oppress women in every culture, in every religion, all around the globe. Women endure this, do their best to work around it, because that's all they can do. But it's a lousy, cruel stacked deck; and it's been dealt them all through history [with two exceptions: ancient Crete and ancient Egypt, in which the sexes were equally respected and empowered].


I know feminists will eat me alive for saying this, but the vast majority of oppression of women is self-inflicted. Female genital mutilation is a practice that is arranged, performed, and perpetuated by women, even if men object to it. Mauritanian gavage is done by the women in the family, to the girls. Many of the strongest advocates of the veil in the Middle East are women. The allegedly "cruel" practice of tightlacing in the Victorian & Edwardian eras was largely advocated by women and shunned by men. As for those horrible things women are being made to wear, from high heels to lipstick to short little skirts... those are self inflicted. And forgive me for being blunt, but perhaps domestic violence would get a lot lower if battered women would stop returning home and putting up with it time and time again.

Most women do these things to themselves, their sisters, their peers, or their daughters. Our urge to 'rescue' them makes us uncomfortable with 'blaming the victim,' but the fact is that both women and men are only being "oppressed" as much as they are willing to take it. Unfortunately, some individual women are innocent victims of phenomena that are out of their individual control. Even then, it's usually other women, not men, who are inflicting the oppression.
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#41551 - 08/07/10 02:21 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1737
Loc: New York
I attack Islam because to be frank it fills me with dread. I’m not talking about fearing terrorist attacks, but what will happen once we open the flood gates and there is no turning back?

I’m concerned that if we give them an inch, they will want the whole mile, and will in time have enough political power to get it. It seems to me that this is what is going on in many parts of Europe.

Does anyone truly believe that once they have Mosque’s all over the place, and Muslims take over a neighborhood or an area, that they are not going to demand the right to shout the call for prayer five times a day? They would have a good argument too, since some churche’s bells toll every hour for the time of day.
(LOL, soon as I wrote that last sentence, I just heard the church bell near my apartment ring twice, for two AM, which I don’t mind at all to be honest.)

I’m imagining them pushing for laws, and winning them so that any kind of adult material in the area that they are located in would be banned. Maybe even on the internet. It’s not that I’m a porn fiend per say, but I don’t appreciate anyone trying to tell me what I can and cannot view.
If you think that this is far fetched and paranoia, I believe that one of the ways that New York city was able to clean up 42nd street was by passing zoning laws which restricted places of adult entertainment being allowed near schools (which is reasonable) But they were not allowed near churches either, even though those adult places were there for many years. They might have even been there first.


I do wonder sometimes what kind of a stir it would cause if someone with considerable amount of resources attempted to build an actual Satanic Church near “regular” churches, masques and temples. It wouldn’t surprise me if local zoning laws weren’t changed to disallow certain colors, and building types that “didn’t fit” the general acceptable look of the particular neighborhood.
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#41567 - 08/07/10 04:54 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Asmedious]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
It's a slippery slope, and the Muslims that are pushing their agenda, such as the imam behind the NY mosque we're discussing, know this and are using our own laws against us in the name of "peace".

The argument that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world is a bit of a misnomer, because it implies that it is attracting more converts, when in reality it is simply a matter of Muslims producing more children who are raised in the faith.

Those who say the backlash is ludicrous, and who try to draw parallels between Muslims and, say, the illegal Mexicans sneaking into this country, are missing a key point. Mexicans (aside from those running drugs and weapons) are pretty laid back, just want to raise families and have a decent life. They may not integrate fully into American society, but they're not out to push Catholicism on the rest of us.

Muslims on the other hand, DO have an agenda. Not all of them, to be sure. The majority of them in this country are nice people who have similar goals as the average American, to have a good job, send their kids to a good school, own a nice house and car, all that jazz. It's their faith that creeps on us, and their religious leaders are the ones pushing the limits of our tolerance. And they know they can get away with it, because of our First Amendment and how dearly we hold our Constitution and what it stands for.

You don't see Mexican padres setting up churches in New Mexico and on one hand, encouraging the congregation to be good neighbors and citizens, and on the other hand, saying that America deserves to be brought to her knees because of her sinful ways and for stealing Mexican territory 150 years ago.

Just sayin'.
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#41594 - 08/08/10 02:06 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Nemesis]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
(General reply)

The Muslims are doing this all over the world, not just here. And the fact that - if we chose to look outside our own small personal bubbles of existence - we could learn a lot by observing what Europe has gone, is going, and will go through by attempting to be so tolerant of their religion and the laws that ride in on the back of that religion...to me, it just makes sense that we fight this. Upholding our constitution is one thing, but America was built on the fact that we don't tolerate shit we don't want to tolerate. We didn't tolerate British religious restrictions, we didn't tolerate their tariffs and imposing their will on us from 4000 miles away, we didn't tolerate natives skankin' around in nothing but a loincloth, and at one point, we didn't even tolerate ourowndamnselves.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Obama is SO MUCH MORE Muslim-sympathetic than we even know right now, and ditto the rest of the powers that be...but that doesn't mean that the common man can't employ any or all of the tactics that have already been mentioned above to disgust them into leaving.

Stir them up, I say. Show them that they are not welcome. Look at all the shit that Europe is going through. It makes all our little bullshit with Mexicans marching around demanding that we learn Spanish look like a sunny day in the park.

It's a cryin' damn shame that the entire nation is all talk and no walk...we don't HAVE to tolerate this shit. It is a slap in the face, we all know it. It's a nose-thumb, a backroom chuckle, et al., but we choose to ignore it and justify it by citing our own founding documents.

Beh. Where are the National Socialists when you need them?

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#41614 - 08/08/10 05:54 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: ceruleansteel]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
Beh. Where are the National Socialists when you need them?

Being locked up by the reason of "spreading hate messages" when some consider and organise a gathering with music and places to discuss the ideas. While on the other hand Muslims are spreading death-treaties towards important political persons, but hey that's not really spreading hate ey?

I'm fed up with the current attitude coming from both political grounds as ideas being learned in schools concerning this issue. While it is being implied everyone has an opinion of his/her own, it is also being pushed in a certain direction.
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#41620 - 08/08/10 08:58 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dimitri]
TV is God Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
I learn ever so slightly toward the building of the mosque for a few reason.

I can't see any legal right anyone has to say somebody can't build something because it's going to be used for idiots to pray in. Christians and jews would spread the same doctrine of "my faith or die" just as quick in the same circumstances. Islam has become such a boogeyman. It's just like the black folks were going to destroy the neighborhood, the mexicans were going to take our jobs, and now the muslims are going to take away our "way of life." You know what? The neighborhood still stands and I've seen plenty of lazy white people keeping their jobs.

I don't see the suicide bombers in the streets any time soon. And so what if they are? They'll be targeting political and business areas in populated cities I'm nowhere near. Enjoy the show I say. I live in a little town in nowhere. I don't care if some stranger gets blown to bits. I don't feel sad or angry just because we happen to live in the same landmass. I've never been one to root for the home team.

Pretty much echoing what 6 says, I don't really care much about 9/11 except that I found it an interesting and amusing. I like disasters because they're fun to watch. So for that reason I liked 9/11. And this is the reason I lean toward building the mosque. I like seeing people pissed off and freaked out.

Living in an area where tornadoes are known to hit I've noticed how freaked out anybody that's not from around here gets at the slightest hint of a storm. I love seeing these people freaking out. I can't wait to see people freak out about suicide bombers.

If there's anybody to be scared of it's the conspiracy nut warriors for christ with sheds full of firearms that think the antichrist Obama is going to start eating their children. They're right in our back yard, have guns legally, and every bit as psycho as a terrorist.

But oh how I forgot the glorious great white christian nation we have and I wouldn't want any evil brown people to steal our perfect paradise from us. God Bless America!

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#41622 - 08/08/10 10:06 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: TV is God]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
You know what, fuck you.

If it doesn't mean shit to you then shut the fuck up.
Yeah, some one is going to ride my ass for telling people to shut up, but I am tired of ignorance and stupidity for the sake of being cool. You are not cool.

I live in New York City. I saw the towers go down. I go stuck on the subway when they locked down Manhattan and stopped all the trains from running. My now ex-brother-in-law put the new tiles down in the lobby after the first bombing at the towers. Some of my friends who were there are still kinda traumatized after walking around covered in dust from the buildings and from the burned up people who might have been their dead co-workers. I still remember the smell the city had after the bombings and buildings went down. I know how the city and people changed after that happened. It fucked up seeing army guys in cammos walking around with M16's and other big guns all the time. Granted they are not all over like they used to be, but they are still a big presence. The city changed, and the people changed after that shit went down.

This is more than a religion or a first amendment thing.
This is about building a mosque next to the site where they feel they destroyed the physical representation of the evil that America stands for.

They are using the Constitution to destroy the very things that it represents.

Yes, we have crazy white people with guns who are religious fundamentalists. Then we get shit like Waco, ruby ridge and the federal building that Timothy McVey bombed, oh and the IRS building that some guy flew a small plane into. The difference is, they are not looking to kill everyone or change the major way of life for everyone in this country. They tend to focus on smaller things that are more ego driven. Yes, they are dangerous too.

The Mexican's and Blacks are not looking to bomb this country and turn it into some Sharia loving version of Iran. They want the old fake American dream, good schools, nice home, 2 cars, big titted women, and money to burn.

Its going to turn out bad,and that's all there is to it.
Afterwards, the politicians are just going to cry "I didn't know, I didn't think" because money bought their asses.

So sit home, laugh and watch the news on your tv. It's not real to you anyway.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#41655 - 08/08/10 08:10 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fist]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Fist
and it is blood which is Haram (unclean/forbidden/anti-Islamic).


In order to lighten up the discussion a bit.

Haram!
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Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#41658 - 08/08/10 09:26 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Morgan]
TV is God Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
Nothing I said is for the sake of being "cool." I'm making a logical point here. If you really think I'm just trying to look "cool" you're projecting something in my post that isn't there.

I'm making the point that people are scared shitless of muslims when there's nothing to worry about. This is no different from the idiots wearing surgical masks in airports because a couple people got sick or wanting to ban violent video games because a couple kids that played them are psychos. Media propagated hysteria that I just don't buy.

I did not at all mention the constitution. I think the american government at it's core is a complete joke and I couldn't give two shits what they decided was the politicalmorality of america.

Okay, you were affected personally by 9/11. You have right to take it seriously. I wasn't, I don't. I don't have those kind of altruistic tendencies. It's not an attack on you or those people. I as much for 9/11 victims as I feel for starving kids in ethiopia or victims of the subway serin gas attack in Tokyo.

Yeah they're preaching that they want to kill us all. Can they? Can they really?

I don't watch the news. The news is an absolute joke. The news is the reason everybody's giving into terrorism (the art of scaring people because you can't do what you want for real) and you know what? Without that news you wouldn't be afraid of losing "american values", whatever the fuck they are, and life would be no different.

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#41660 - 08/08/10 10:14 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: TV is God]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Alright, I finally decided to say something here. I hate Islam, with a passion. It goes beyond what we would normally consider a religion. It is a geopolitical ideology. However, I say let them build.

The laws here in America protect everyone's right to think, believe, and say pretty much whatever they want. It is these laws that protect their rights, and they also protect ours as well. I'm not worried about America becoming an Islamic State any time soon.

They may have chosen that site for the mosque as a bit "Fuck you!" to Americans, but I think the more likely reason would be that religion is a business here in America and this is great publicity. Allowing them to build the mosque is not a turn of the cheek. From my perspective we are saying, "We're not going to go batshit crazy and go against our principles." We have racists, Nazis, Communists, and all sorts of other groups competing in the free market of ideas. It has worked alright for the most part.

Let us not forget that America is still a largely Christian dominated nation. If we were to allow the government to discriminate against Islam, we would be setting a president for Christians to discriminate against us. We can't pick and choose who enjoy certain freedoms and who do not. We aren't exactly popular. After Islam, we'd be pretty close to the top of the list of groups to discriminate against.
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#41662 - 08/09/10 12:58 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: TV is God]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"I'm making the point that people are scared shitless of muslims when there's nothing to worry about"

So all the bombing all over the world, the airplane bomb attempts, the attempted car/van bombing in times square a few weeks ago by muslims mean nothing. Maybe you in your small city have nothing to worry about, but the big cities do. We are targets, and shit happens. You have to be aware because like it or not, the fundamentalists want to kill American and will find ways.

Fine don't buy into the media propaganda, keep your head in the sand. Nothing is wrong, everything is fine, and your mom is baking you an apple pie. Its not a matter of just watching one tv news show or one newspaper, its about seeing what is going on in the world through multiple media sources, and making an informed judgment about how screwed or fucked up things are or are not.

I see, so you just don't give a shit about what happens as long as it entertains you.

Can they kill us all, no, not in one shot. Iran is working on nukes, and I am sure if the Taliban in Pakistan gets their hands on some we can expect to get hit somewhere, sometimes soon. If they manage to nuke, New York, or Washington, or California, will any of that affect you? How would it affect the country?

"Without that news you wouldn't be afraid of losing "american values", whatever the fuck they are, and life would be no different."

I think that is a very naieve thing to say. BUT, you are entitled to stick you head in the sand and ignore everything that is going on in the real world.

Whatever I say won't make a difference to you so next....

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#41663 - 08/09/10 01:27 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Morgan]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1139
Loc: Amarillo, TX
If someone is genuinely concerned about danger, this seems to me a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

On the one hand, if their request to build a mosque is rejected, or their mosque is bacon-and-tamponed, or invade Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia (where most of the terrorists were from) because we're in bed with the Saudi royal family, or pile naked Muslim men on top of one another and take pictures smiling and pointing, it seems likely just to piss them off and spur retaliation, not to mention provide justification for their martyr complex. (Look what the US did to us! Surely we're justified in doing something violent!)

On the other hand, if we just roll over and acquiesce to their every demand, it becomes a little game of just how far they can push the envelope. Building a mosque in NYC? OK. Building a mosque right near ground zero? Distasteful and disrespectful, but technically there's nothing stopping you. Demanding that your headscarf be worn in banks that prohibit hats and sunglasses or for your driver's license photo? That's creeping along the edge of special treatment. Sharia law? It's happened before in other countries.

If we give them an inch, they take a mile. If we don't give them an inch, they wail about their rights being denied and lash out. Kind of a shitty situation to be in.


Edited by XiaoGui17 (08/09/10 01:28 AM)
Edit Reason: accidentally capitalized something goofy
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#41665 - 08/09/10 05:05 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Morgan]
TV is God Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
So all the bombing all over the world, the airplane bomb attempts, the attempted car/van bombing in times square a few weeks ago by muslims mean nothing. Maybe you in your small city have nothing to worry about, but the big cities do. We are targets, and shit happens. You have to be aware because like it or not, the fundamentalists want to kill American and will find ways.

Some acts, mostly failed, at some relatively small time terrorism. You live in a big city, danger comes with the territory. Honestly if I lived in New York I think I'd be more afraid of muggers, crackheads, and other products of the good ol' american way of life. If their big followup to 9/11 is usually failing attempts to set off some bombs in a street I'm not shaking in my boots for a muslim invasion any time soon.

And even I catch myself speaking of muslims as if they're an organized unified front. They're not.

 Quote:

Fine don't buy into the media propaganda, keep your head in the sand. Nothing is wrong, everything is fine, and your mom is baking you an apple pie. Its not a matter of just watching one tv news show or one newspaper, its about seeing what is going on in the world through multiple media sources, and making an informed judgment about how screwed or fucked up things are or are not.

There's plenty that's actually wrong and fucked up in our society that's a bigger threat than some religious whackos across the stream. We don't seem afraid of the crazies in our own back yard. Our educational system is at every point encouraging one to be an unquestioning whore to authority. I would argue the fundamental social values of how one's expected to interact with another is very fucked but all issues deviant from the point.
I don't have the delusion everything's okay but I'm not afraid of anything just because I'm supposed to be.


 Quote:

I see, so you just don't give a shit about what happens as long as it entertains you.

Terrorist acts have no interference with my existence apart from the fear and paranoia of those around me. Sometimes it bugs me but I have personal satisfaction in seeing people freak out over nothing. Muslim invasion is the new y2k. I wouldn't be heartbroken if I wasn't entertained but when the choices are to be paranoid, ignore it, or get a good laugh out of it I'll take option three.

 Quote:

Can they kill us all, no, not in one shot. Iran is working on nukes, and I am sure if the Taliban in Pakistan gets their hands on some we can expect to get hit somewhere, sometimes soon. If they manage to nuke, New York, or Washington, or California, will any of that affect you? How would it affect the country?

If they use a nuke that's the end of them. We have a bigger nuke dick. We'd lose Washington or California. They'd lose everything. I know you'll believe I'm just trying to be a "cool" misanthrope (I assume some misplaced leftover sentiment for our serial culler buddies) but I'd enjoy every second of that too. I enjoy panic not to be different, edgy, outlandish, or whatever.
Life is a ride, enjoy it.

 Quote:

"Without that news you wouldn't be afraid of losing "american values", whatever the fuck they are, and life would be no different."

I think that is a very naieve thing to say. BUT, you are entitled to stick you head in the sand and ignore everything that is going on in the real world.

The muslims are a disorganized joke that's sects hate each other as much as they hate us. Ignorant to what's going on the real world? No I just keep it in perspective. Not every mole is skin cancer.

 Quote:

Whatever I say won't make a difference to you so next....

I think it's jumping the gun a little bit to conciser me as stubborn or closed minded after a debate of only three posts. I'm not saying any of this to rattle cages or shape what people think of me. I'm just making my point about the topic like everybody else.

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#41666 - 08/09/10 05:27 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The question is not if they can kill you, the question is if you can protect yourself.

I had a discussion here with a previous member about that, not too long before 9-11 happened, in which she claimed the domestic defense of the USA being so superb, any attack would be futile or intercepted. I disagreed and told her if anyone desires to attack, they can attack and will at one point succeed. Sadly I was proven right. I expected a chemical attack somewhere, not even in my wildest imagination I could think about commercial flights turning into weapons. If your opponent's desire to harm you is strong enough, and he is willing to do whatever it takes, being the defensive party is never in your favor.

That is the sad state of affairs; the West is trying to defend itself against a close to invisible foe willing to do whatever it takes. The longer we remain in defense, the more probable it will become that at one point they will succeed in striking again. Look at this as somewhat identical to prisons, inmates and wardens but instead of inmates trying to get out, them trying to get in. Why do some inmates succeed in escaping prison or bribing wardens? Because they have all the time of the world to identify the weak spots and think about alternative methods to exploit them. The same is true at the level of nations or defense. Nations don't have time to focus all their energy on protection so inevitable, there will be weak spots. Those willing to strike do have all the time because it has become their goal in life and they do have the will to focus on that until they are successful.

Mind you, at some level I cannot disagree with those terrorists . We in the West have become silly enough to think our values are so superb, we should export them elsewhere. Some consider those values a very mediocre import product and think they were doing just fine when upholding their own values. Add to that the typical foreign intermeddling in which friend and foe are interchanged so frequently in the end your foes become friends, and you create a wonderful mess.

Alea iacta est.

The West has a problem and the why of the problem is not as important as the fact that there is a problem that needs to be solved. But the West has become corrupted. Not only money rules our current state of affairs, guilt runs rampant too. The whole Left is ridden by white guilt. The effects are easily noticed when your own culture is put into jails for spreading hate, or considered a sub-group because they uphold white cultural values or tradition while at the same time those other cultures acting identical, get rewarded with community centers in which they may fully explore their cultural tradition and revel in it. In Europe, in those very community centers the cancer grows. Where do we find sharia4europe gathering? Not in dark alleys or in secret houses; they gather in those very community centers because none wants to interfere with those different cultures exploring their values. We don't interfere because we still feel bad because granddaddy got rich on their expense in the rubber plantation, or spice and cotton trade. We have put the minorities on a pedestal at the expense of the majority and the very reason for doing so is guilt.

Of course, many do not give a damn about it. I assume it is the same down here as it is elsewhere in Europe but strangely, all those I see that don't give a damn are the first to run to the cops when someone punches their nose. If they don't give a damn, why do they suddenly expect others to give a damn when something affects them? But they got their ipod, their television and their games and as long as they have these, who cares what happens? As long as they remain distracted all is well. And yes all is well; they are distracted and as such, become weak, the very cattle to be exploited by their environment, their government and anyone out there willing to do so. Those that are awake either say not with this guy or join the ones exploiting.

Why is it possible that this center is being build there? Not only because of money but because besides that, opportunity and guilt runs politics.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

D.

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#41667 - 08/09/10 07:10 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Diavolo]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Diavolo is dead on. If someone REALLY wants to attack you and REALLY isn't too concerned with the ramifications of his act or any personal pain of discomfort they will feel... sooner or later. They'll get you. Guaranteed. Only thing you can really do is expect the unexpected and soldier on.

One of the "assignments" I had while I was in the military was to serve as an EET member (Exercise Evaluation Team) for war games with the 60th MAW. My area of expertise for most of the exercises was in combat mobility and control... basically, how well we could invade a country. My boss, the Colonel, also used me for clandestine activities because he knew I could be a sneaky son of a bitch to get the job done. I would crawl accross an active runway and through the center grassy areas to plant the "THIS IS A BOMB" card on airctaft, I wore a wig, dressed as a civilian photographer assigned to cover the exercises for the San Francisco Chronicle to make my way onto the base and assassinate the commander... sometimes I got caught and sometimes I got the mission done. But I was relentless.

Back in 1984-1989, we KNEW our enemy was going to be Arabic, and that we would have to defend against Arab terrorist attacks. In our radio chatter and message traffic, we'd use our names backward to give a more Arabic feel (Captain Bashaw would be Ahmed Wahsab). I was tasked with coming up with scenarios for crippling attacks.

I seldom submitted attacks on aircraft exclusively, unless that was required. I went after soft targets that would get the most bang for my buck. I wanted to show that I could tie up a lot of resources with as little personal expenditure as possible. I wanted to slam the morale of the troops and die a glorious death for Allah. Some of the attacks I devised were:

A gang rape of a military woman in a barracks. When the police arrived, I would call DETONATION over my radio in the most logical place for their on-scene command point.

Poisoning the water at the elementary school adjacent to the base where military families had their children. When the ambulances responded, my team would attack with automatic weapons.

Blowing up all six of the base chapels simultaneously during worship services.

The one that made the team tell me, "No way... just stop" was my plan to hijack the maternity ward at the base hospital, force news coverage and blow it up on live television.

I've spent a lot of time in the Middle East in the military and I kept my ears open and my mouth shut. The mind of a Jilhadist isn't in thinking about what's going to happen to HIM, but what's going to happen to YOU. And just because they HAVEN'T come after you in Podunk Falls, Nebraska doesn't mean they won't, boys and girls, because there are people whose minds play the war game 24/7... and they want the biggest bang for the buck that they could get with the least expenditure of time and effort.

So, were I Kcolb Ekaj, I might go to a rural town of 5,000 or so with a small truck full of explosives... or a fertilizer plant... or a hospital... or a school for handicapped children. "Today, we have stricken deep into your heartland at Podunk Falls, Nebraska. Perhaps tomorrow, it will be Benton, Illinois or any of ten thousand targets of opportunity. Allah Akbar. This is the Popular Front For Islamic Solidarity."

Death for a true believer is always an option... yours, preferably, but theirs if necessary. But they know that protecting every target isn't possible... like John Dillinger reportedly said, "They can't stop me. They have to be at every bank, every time. I just have to be at one bank one time."
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#41668 - 08/09/10 07:59 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I live in a rather quiet and calm country which is internationally often only known for its waffles, beer and sprouts and maybe nowadays our internal linguistic/regional battle. The region I live in is even calmer and it might seem like a nice and cozy environment for tourists to visit.

Still, a couple of years ago, in a small border town about fifteen minutes from here, five members of the GICM were arrested, not only because they supported Al Qaeda but also because they, apparently, were involved in the previous attacks and the Madrid one.

 Quote:
What the city elders did not know at the time was that the women came from households in which several men had embraced radical Islam and joined a terrorist network that was setting up sleeper cells across Europe, according to Belgian federal prosecutors and court documents from Italy, Spain and France.

Over the next nine months, Belgian federal police arrested five men in Maaseik, a town of 24,000 people tucked in the northeast corner of Belgium. Each was charged with membership in a terrorist organization, the Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group, a fast-growing network known by its French initials, GICM.

With each arrest, investigators uncovered fresh evidence that placed small-town Maaseik at the center of a terrorist network stretching across Europe, the Middle East and North Africa. The town had served as a haven for suspects in the Madrid train explosions that killed 191 people in March 2004, for instance, as well as an important meeting place for the GICM's European leadership.

The Belgian investigation underscores the challenges that authorities in Europe face in tracking down sleeper cells and in sorting vaguely suspicious behavior from imminent danger. Police have made scores of arrests in Berlin, Paris, Rome, Stockholm and Amsterdam in the past two years to disrupt what were described as terrorist plots, although in many cases it remains unclear whether the threats were overstated or false alarms.

... Despite an investigation that has reached into eight countries, Belgian authorities remain uncertain about the Maaseik cell's true mission . Police found no bombs, no guns, no blueprints for an attack -- just lots of worrisome evidence that the defendants were consorting with terrorism suspects from elsewhere and could have been planning something big.

"We are quite sure that we have proved that they were a logistical support cell," said a senior official with the Belgian State Security service, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "But the fact is, the potential was there to do something more serious."

... At first, intelligence officials suspected the Maaseik group was a ring to smuggle illegal farmworkers into Limburg. The agents dubbed their mission Operation Asparagus, after the vegetable that is widely grown in the region. As months passed, concerns grew.

In November 2003, several key figures in the GICM traveled to Maaseik from Spain and France for a rare meeting, according to Spanish and French court documents.
The GICM's European cells normally avoided direct contact with each other so that they wouldn't attract attention from police. But the network had seen several of its leaders arrested in Morocco after terrorist bombings in Casablanca six months earlier and was trying to regroup, the court documents show. Maaseik was emerging as an important hub.

Among those attending the meeting was Lahoussine Haski, a Moroccan with a history of fighting for radical Islamic causes in Chechnya, Afghanistan and other places, according to Belgian investigators and court documents.

Haski arrived in Maaseik holding a false passport, on the run from authorities in Morocco who had issued a warrant for his arrest on terrorism charges. In Saudi Arabia, he was listed by the government as one of the 26 most-wanted terrorist suspects in the kingdom for his alleged role in a series of bombings.
After months of hiding out in Saudi Arabia, Syria and Turkey, Haski needed a refuge. Maaseik seemed safe. He married a local woman. Later, she would become one of the half-dozen women who caused a ruckus in town by donning their black burqas.


Yes Houston we got a problem.

D.

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#41671 - 08/09/10 09:37 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Looks like Germany is having the same sort of issues, though their relationship with islam is longer running one by far than ours.

There always seems to be the question of establishing sharia law in whatever country these folks migrate to. I can't think of anything worse than faith based litigation.


Hamburg Mosque Used by 9/11 Plotters Is Shuttered

BERLIN — The authorities in Hamburg said Monday that they had shut down the mosque there where several of the hijackers involved in the Sept. 11 attacks had met because it remained a source of radicalization nearly a decade later. Read the rest here

From a wiki article:
 Quote:

Construction of Mosques

The construction of mosques occasionally arouses hostile reactions in the neighborhoods concerned. For example, in 2007 an attempt by Muslims to build a large mosque in Cologne sparked a controversy.


Fears of Islamic fundamentalism

Fears of Islamic fundamentalism came to the fore after September 11, 2001, especially with respect to Islamic fundamentalism among second- and third-generation Muslims in Germany. Also the various confrontations between Islamic religious law (Sharia) and the norms of German Grundgesetz and culture are the subject of intense debate. German critics include both liberals and Christian groups. The former claim that Islamic fundamentalism violates basic fundamental rights whereas the latter maintain that Germany is a state and society grounded in the Christian tradition.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#41673 - 08/09/10 10:23 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
Shit, I still remember that day. I was homeschooled. I was about 11 or 12 I think. Parents were at work and I got up early to watch Who's Line Is It Anyway on Comedy Central. Turned the tv on and the news channel was on. I saw the first tower in smoke. My initial thought was that this was a movie or preview for one. But 5 - 10 minutes passed and I realized "Holy shit this shit is real?!" That was a fucked up day.
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#41682 - 08/09/10 01:59 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
... like John Dillinger reportedly said, "They can't stop me. They have to be at every bank, every time. I just have to be at one bank one time."

I like that. Along that line, and not to hijack the thread, I recall an interview with an old Alcatraz guard some years ago when former guards & prisoners held a reunion in San Francisco. He recalled, "Machine Gun Kelly was a real gentleman. He was only bad when he had a machine gun."
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#41688 - 08/10/10 03:02 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Diavolo]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1139
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Not only money rules our current state of affairs, guilt runs rampant too. The whole Left is ridden by white guilt. The effects are easily noticed when your own culture is put into jails for spreading hate, or considered a sub-group because they uphold white cultural values or tradition while at the same time those other cultures acting identical, get rewarded with community centers in which they may fully explore their cultural tradition and revel in it. In Europe, in those very community centers the cancer grows. Where do we find sharia4europe gathering? Not in dark alleys or in secret houses; they gather in those very community centers because none wants to interfere with those different cultures exploring their values. We don't interfere because we still feel bad because granddaddy got rich on their expense in the rubber plantation, or spice and cotton trade. We have put the minorities on a pedestal at the expense of the majority and the very reason for doing so is guilt.

This is very true. On the other hand, I think part of the reason white folks, men, heterosexuals, and anyone else in historically "privileged" class feels guilty is not just because of great-granddaddy's plantation. It's also because there are modern-day whites who get a lot of publicity that gives liberals a sense of something they have to apologize for. Birthers at Tea Parties with misspelled signs and portraits of Obama with a Hitler mustache foaming at the mouth about some N!GGER in the White House plastered all over MSNBC make liberal whites squirm in their seats and feel the need to donate something to the NAACP.

Or take this example: At one rally in June, two Arabic-speaking Egyptian Coptic Christians who had come to oppose the mosque had to be whisked away by the police after being threatened and told to "Go home." This even after one made a point of shouting "I'm a Christian!" to the crowd.

Well, isn't that lovely? They had actually come to oppose the mosque as well, but the other protesters just saw, as the guy in the apartment next to mine so drunkenly put it, "sand n!ggers."

Maybe the opposition to the mosque would get more support if they could find a way to weed the nutjobs out of their midst. The Muslims wanting to build the mosque have much better PR, and like it or not, that's going to affect who wins.


Edited by XiaoGui17 (08/10/10 03:04 AM)
_________________________
Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

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#41692 - 08/10/10 05:10 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The "sand nigger" approach you experienced is actually our very first line of defense. We are tribal; all claims of being civilized aside, basically we remain a very tribal species. As such, when pressure arises, we act very similar to how our species always acted throughout times. Anger and fear make us focus on the one and only important aspect of other people in those situations; difference.

When I was in the US, not too long after the 9-11 strike, I quickly heard about attacks on Sikhs. At some level I did find it hilarious because a Sikh is about as similar to a Muslim as a Christian is to a Buddhist. But they're both ragheads, so they must be the same. At first I did find it stupid behaviour and yes, while it essentially is stupid in certain situations, it is also very practical in others. This xenophobic behavior which is rooted in us comes in pretty handy when danger arises or when it is needed. Warfare doesn't really promote looking at the opponents as unique individuals but is most served with creating one uniform view upon the enemy, focusing on the only important thing; difference. Which creates the option in many Hollywood movies to add their "moral" interlude, in which the brave hero, after shooting his opponent, finds a photo of the enemy's wife and kids in a wallet.

The Left tries to eradicate these reactions, simplistically assuming that if people become correctly educated, they will not display such behaviour again. That is as likely as trying to make a man not look at a pretty female when she walks by. Whenever pressure arises, we will fall back to this instinctive behaviour.

When manipulated correctly, you get things done by exploiting it. The others know that too.

D.

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#41705 - 08/10/10 10:45 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
[MindWar Rant Mode ON]


Speaking of MindWar (liked your paper on it by the way), do you think the government collective uses the media as a means to sway public opinion? I know politicians do it on an individual basis, but what I mean is that is there some sort of concerted effort, or a department or something, that dreams up what to tell the media on certain issues to spin things in a way to garner support? If so, do they operate in collusion with the media? Your paper particularly deals with application in a foreign environment but might this sort of thing be used domestically and if so how prevalent is it? I suspect it's widespread since the news OF America from different countries (BBC for example) is quite different than the news IN America.

Guys like Jim Marrs have been shouting about a government/press collusive effort to fool Americans for a long time (JFK forward) but he comes across as a bit zany at times. Michael Moore also tries to make the link but never quite gets there successfully, though he does prove (to me at least) that the press and some large corporate interests are in bed together.

I guess I just wonder how much herd TV is designed to sway the collective public opinion. Conveniently, it seems successful in pushing the two party binary agenda where people can either be this or that like Sneetches on beaches and third side folk (like us) are sold out as the lunatic fringe.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#41753 - 08/10/10 11:53 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
... do you think the government collective uses the media as a means to sway public opinion?

Not in a formal sense, as in Goebbels' Ministry of Propaganda, of course. There is nothing like a domestic "Department of Public Information", though of course many governmental & private sector institutions have "public affairs" or "public information" offices/officers to disseminate information favorable to them and spin/deny what is not.

After WW2 and its propaganda excesses, Congress passed the Smith Mundt Act, which prohibits the US government propagandizing American citizens. Hence while the Voice of America, for example, could be broadcast overseas by the ICA/USIA/USIS, it could not be broadcast within this country.

During my active government career (68-94), Smith Mundt was gospel in DoD PSYOP. A PSYOP unit printing plant could not even be used to reproduce recruiting posters for local military recruiting stations.

I don't think I will comment here on Smith Mundt post-9/11.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#41757 - 08/11/10 04:21 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Nemesis]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis


The argument that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world is a bit of a misnomer, because it implies that it is attracting more converts, when in reality it is simply a matter of Muslims producing more children who are raised in the faith.


As opposed to Catholics?
2,1 billion Xians around.
1,5 billion Moslems.

IMO this has more to do with poverty and social issues.
Not a devious master plan with the intent of flooding the globe with systematically over-breeding true believers.

Education will drop the number of births.
Always does (except in orthodox sects).

When talking about over-breeding, the mind jumps readily over to over-reaction...
The need to generalize the followers of Islam (an extremely diverse group of people) into "THEM"; the enemy of "US", never seize to amaze me.

Sure; there is a storm coming.
And a bloody battle it will be.

Where do the enlightened Satanist stand?
Safely within secular Xianity?
Closet Xians?
_________________________
Regards

Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#41759 - 08/11/10 05:05 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fist]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Fist

Of course, those Lefties may really be on to something. The blood of menstruation is horrifying to Muslim men. It is from a woman (and we know how they feel about 'them') and it is blood which is Haram (unclean/forbidden/anti-Islamic). Imagine the shock and horror of finding a big used Kotex on their front stoop! "Oops, sorry. It must have fallen out. You know how dirty we women are."



Or one could take the gay and merry approach...

Felicitations!
_________________________
Regards

Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#41770 - 08/11/10 08:09 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Woland]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean its the "right" thing to do.

There are now bus ads up questioning why.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas...arketplace.html

All this doesn't matter, the mosque building is going to be built with money raised from Muslims overseas, and with American workers.
Irony at its best.

Morgan

ps...

Looks like we are already in bed with him.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38653657/ns/politics-more_politics/


Edited by Morgan (08/11/10 08:35 AM)
Edit Reason: added ps
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#41786 - 08/11/10 01:08 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Woland]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1139
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Woland
Or one could take the gay and merry approach...

Felicitations!


Article: "If you want to be treated fairly, you should treat others fairly as well."

Brilliant. I imagine that will function about as well as a BBQ restaurant next door. It's kind of calling their bluff on this all being about "outreach." It's a dare: "OK, reach out to this."
_________________________
Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

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#41789 - 08/11/10 01:34 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Morgan]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Morgan


There are now bus ads up questioning why.





I especially like this catchy tune.
_________________________
Regards

Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#41796 - 08/11/10 06:05 PM "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Fnord]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
... Guys like Jim Marrs have been shouting about a government/press collusive effort to fool Americans for a long time (JFK forward) but he comes across as a bit zany at times. Michael Moore also tries to make the link but never quite gets there successfully, though he does prove (to me at least) that the press and some large corporate interests are in bed together ...

A "conspiracy theorist" is anyone who proposes a conspiracy other than the official one. Governments lie, not scandalously, outrageously, or occasionally, but normally and routinely; and this is what most people don't, or don't want to understand. So do big corporations, the big media, and everyone else, which was class #1 in the PSYOP Officer's Course I attended in 1969.

Think you know what's going on in the Mideast right now? Give a listen to "Guns & Butter" today, and I promise you'll be in full WTF mode.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#41799 - 08/11/10 07:30 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

Think you know what's going on in the Mideast right now? Give a listen to "Guns & Butter" today, and I promise you'll be in full WTF mode.


Looking forward to listening to it, thank you.

For probably the past five years I've been reading up on and studying things (like the JFK Assassination) that I'd had a passing knowledge of before but that didn't make complete sense. At this point, I wonder how I was able to be so innocent about the ways of the world. Sometimes I feel like Dorothy right at the moment when Toto pulls aside the curtain. It's like that in individual cases and then as a whole ... nothing is ever as cut and dried as it appears to be.

I suppose I was just so busy being what you've called a 'meat machine' in establishing a career, paying my bills, educating myself to excel in the world of the herd and raising a family that I just hadn't the time to question much (which I also suppose now is by design).

As I'm becoming more aware, I now have this itch to remake myself. I suppose I'm pawing around for the real boundaries (or to discover there aren't any) to replace a lifetime of established ones.

Anyway, rambled a bit there. You nailed what I was thinking.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#41813 - 08/11/10 09:20 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Fnord]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Wow, where to begin? I can't step away for a minute. Okay, in no particular order:

Firstly, I am going to throw out some terms and concepts that you may have to do further independent research on to truly understand. However, I will try to give you a link or two just to get the gist of what I am talking about.

I can assure you, from first hand sources in the Bush White House, that AIPAC is very influential in Washingtion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee

Israel has been getting a free ride for quite a while. We have been fighting wars so they don't have to. Of course, they are the only democracy in that part of the world. But the elephant in the room is, of course, oil. I would love to 'Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war' throughout the Middle East. But I am not sure the US, and the rest of the global economy, are mentally prepared for what that might look like. The Spice must flow.

If we did not do Israel's dirty work then that would leave Israel to fend for themselves. And the Israelis are a lot less wishy-washy than we are. The world has not seen Total War in over 60 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war

Except now, we have way nastier methods to employ it. Given the national character of the players involved, an unchecked war in Middle East would pretty much collapse the global economy. "Mad Max" would look like a documentary.

As in all of history, there is still a ruling class and a status quo. Politics aside, these people have more in common than not. There is an effort afoot to put us on a path toward a new sort of feudalism. I call it Prison Planet doctrine advancing the Reptilian Agenda.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/

At one point there was a decent wiki page on the Reptilian Agenda. But, it no longer exists. It simply explained what the agenda theoretically was from the conspiracy theorist point of view. The article did not take a position on the actual existence of Reptilians or a grander conspiracy, it simply explained what it was claimed to be.

My point is not if there is an actual conspiracy with a spider in the center of the web, but simply that events are vectoring toward the Prison Planet and Reptilian Agenda. The 'why' and 'how' is not really important. Only the net effect matters.

And this leads to my next point. Why would someone replace the simply stated Reptilian Agenda wiki page with the wild eyed rantings of David Icke? Could it be because if you look around this really is what is happening? With or without a master race from outer space, the Reptilian Agenda is a current event.

Never the less, it would seem that there are forces (of all stripes) that are attempting to shape the collective conscious. The wiki info wars are just one example.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2007/140807_wikipedia_credibility.htm

As Aqunio points out, you need to look at what is 'really' going on. Consider for a moment the old Office of Strategic Information.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1843201.stm

An organization formed for the foreign and DOMESTIC, use of Information Operations (IO). IO is a very high concept art that I could take pages to explain. The art it's self is taught mostly to officers with high security clearances. I guess us enlisted swine are either too stupid to understand it, or can't be trusted to 'look behind the curtain.'

Never the less, the US Army War College explains it this way:

"Information Operations seek to influence the behavior of target decision-makers while simultaneously defending friendly decision-makers from being influenced by an adversary’s use of information."

Hmm, sound familiar? Here is a good open source read if you really want to get into this material:

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/dmspo...Nov%2009%29.pdf

Aquino, I would love your take on this 'new' material.

Here is a good simple graphic:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...ved=0CEUQ9QEwCA

But if you really want to get the goods, you will have to go here:

http://www.jfsc.ndu.edu/schools_programs/jc2ios/io/jiooc.asp

But of course, 'they' wouldn't do that sort of think in the US right?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/28/AR2010032802743.html
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#41815 - 08/11/10 09:34 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Fnord]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I think it was Noam Chomsky who said that accusing someone of engaging in conspiracy theory is one way power attempts to gag or discredit genuine institutional analysis and critique.

Have real human relations ever really been based on anything other then Nietzsche, Redbeard and LaVey’s conception?

The only variation appears to be in the level and type of soma, which is in play at a particular moment, and which the majority will accept; and the level and type of violence the real Satanists, pulling the strings behind the scene, will approve and ensure are carried out.

I take Fnord’s point on being innocent to the ways of the world at a younger time (I certainly was). Studying the ambiguities and arguments behind the assassinations of Jack and Bobby Kennedy and Dr. King are revealing. Watching the way the mafia functions or has functioned in the past is instructive as well.

Sorry, I am a bit cynical today, but what was it that Nietzsche said: the average person comes closest to the truth, the more cynical they become?

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#41818 - 08/11/10 09:45 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Fist]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Oh crap, I forgot the main idea of this thread!

Yes, by all means let them build the Mosque. They have every right to. And we have every right to protest it and engage in civil disobedience. And we have every right to put up ads that raise the collective consciousness. Which I believe is really more to the point.

You see, most people don't think this is a greater war between the West and Islam. This is the info war that 'our' side is fighting. As Stalin recognized: "Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" The mind is the ultimate weapon, everything else is supplemental.

So yes, let them build it. And let us protest it. This is simply one phase of the operation. At some point, there will be street violence over this. And we will enter another phase of the operation. And so on and so on, we march toward the Abyss.

What do we want? Total War:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXMQq_1jddA&feature=related
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#41825 - 08/12/10 12:10 AM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Fist]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Fist
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/dmspo/Publications/Information%20Operations%20Primer%20AY10-Web%20Version%20%28Nov%2009%29.pdf

Aquino, I would love your take on this 'new' material.

It's 97% good [amusing to see what MindWar started!], but the remaining 3% would get a "Disapproved" from me if I were the Army Chief of Staff.

The first 1% is the included targeting of domestic audiences and decision-makers, in direct violation of Smith Mundt. Yes, it's couched under "protection of domestic populace & officials from foreign adverse information", etc., but in practice that translates to a filtering of worldwide information to reinforce current USA policy. Which is PSYOP, which is prohibited domestically by Smith Mundt.

The second 1% relates to the first: It is the corruption of the intelligence process which results from it. Good intel requires the collection, understanding, and evaluation of all information, including an enemy's ideology, attitude towards the USA, and goals. We simply have to be able to see ourselves the way others see us, not in a token, devil's-advocate way, but thoroughly and empathetically. Only then can we reassess our own ideology & policies in view of the obvious impasse that resulted in war, and look for ways to resolve it.

The third 1% is the inclusion of Public Affairs, which during my career time was kept completely separate from PSYOP. Smith Mundt again. PAO is DOD or DA talking to our own citizens & officials. It should accordingly be free from the temptation or taint of "spin" (e.g. PSYOP).

One of the core principles of MindWar, which I didn't see in this IO paper, is that these days you win and end wars, especially guerrilla (non-nation/state) ones not by just brute murder or destruction, but rather by finding a solution which all antagonists can live with, even if they don't like it. [This is assuming that you actually want to end the war, which of course you might prefer to keep going for economic, domestic-patriotism-rousing, or etc.] So if you're going to allow parts of IO to in effect blind your own side, you've already failed.

So I would send the paper back to the AWC with these instructions:

(1) Read and obey Smith Mundt, which is federal law above DoD or any other federal agency, or the White House.

(2) Remove PAO from this entire process.

(3) Remove Intelligence from this process, except as a research resource.

(4) In addition to the above, remove any attempts to shelter, divert, impede, or otherwise prevent the American populace & government from foreign sources of information. Officials need to see the fullest possible picture to make wise decisions, and the people need to see it to elect competent officials. That is what a republic based on democracy is all about.

MindWar is different than traditional war, in which you don't bother with all these troublesome considerations. You just beat the other side to a bloody pulp until it yells "surrender", or if it doesn't you kill it completely off. This was WW1 & WW2 thinking, of course, and has an emotionally-satisfying George Patton simplicity to it.

MindWar wants to argue the other side into seeing things our way, and to adjust the physical situation within the limits of both sides' toleration to make that possible. MindWar fails the moment people start shooting or bombing each other. Human nature being what it is, MW won't always work. It also is not a one-time fix to a continuing problem, and it also starts with a stacked and/or deteriorated deck of cards.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#41927 - 08/14/10 09:41 AM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
Ya know, in light of all the information that's been shared, my gut still is stuck in waffling motion when it comes to this mosque, though my emotional side tends to play out stronger. I posted on another message board this morning after someone posted a video of some goofass addressing the oppositions of the mosque. I think to some degree my response really applies here too. I know they're only my feelings but the truth of the matter is, they mean something to me and I feel the need to state them.

My response was..**Building a Mosque there is very tasteless if you ask the average American, even those that have no affiliation to ANY religion. If the Muslims had any tact, they would understand why building that particular type of "gathering" place there is so offensive to so many. Hell, even a Catholic church that had LONG standing in that community that WAS damaged on 9/11 can't seem to get the permits it needs to be refurbished, and yet this structure is getting the "go ahead"?

The wounds may be almost 10 years old, but the nightmares are still very vivid in the Americans' minds. I still remember EXACTLY where I was and what I was doing that morning. I remember the way everyone was so incredibly, eerily quiet that day as they watched in horror as the towers fell and the reports all over the US started coming in. Videos of the Muslim owners of the little shops around the world dancing in the streets, to include here in the US. I DO remember the days that followed and I wasn't one that was directly affected by that day. I can't even begin to imagine what it was like in NY. I can only remember what was shown day in and day out on the news, and yet there are days lately I don't remember where I set my tea down in the house.

Ya know what though, to hell with everything else, so long as there's freedom of religion. Build the Mosque right there, less than 500 feet from where those towers fell and better than 3,000 lives (American and foreign alike) were taken. Who cares if they were murdered and we're still fighting against terrorism. Our soldiers are dying for that very freedom, even though that building spits in so many Americans' faces. Yes, have their freedom, but the least they could do is show a bit of tact to the very country they are RESIDING in as well. Is that really TOO MUCH to ask?**

Yep, it was a rant, replying to a Muslim when she toted out some dipshits video. I know our "wars" are about more than terrorism but after her little "nanny nanny" attitude in her post, I don't expect her to get much more than that. I, personally, don't want that mosque, but if they get the legal ok's all the way through, I hope someone does put up a rib/bacon resturant on one side and the gay bar goes in on the other. I hope the place is watched like none other and if there is even an inkling of "foul play", whether it be dirty money or sleeper cells, I hope it gets taken down completely. I'd love to see sooooo many have to eat more than crow if something like that were to come to light after the damn place was built. Hopefully it would be before anything else, like another bombing attempt would occur.

Then my brain talks and I know it's their right and freedom to build there. It's doesn't make it any easier, or more comfortable in any way shape or form, but then again, I am human like that.
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#42103 - 08/20/10 10:06 AM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Nyte]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
General Response


If I've learned one thing in my time here on planet Earth it's that controversial things often get even more interesting when one begins to follow the money.

There is a lot of bullshit surrounding this whole thing from both sides. The funding, and the story thereof, is going to be where the rubber hits the road.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#42117 - 08/20/10 02:58 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

Think you know what's going on in the Mideast right now? Give a listen to "Guns & Butter" today, and I promise you'll be in full WTF mode.


WTF is right. I listened to this last week and was reminded of it this morning when I heard about the current mid east sabre-rattling courtesy of Iran & Israel.

I'm inclined to give some merit to this guy's ideas... things are looking ominous over there and Obama's sending troops to Afghanistan as we speak.

The next few months are going to be interesting.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#42296 - 08/23/10 09:15 AM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Fnord]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Fnord

I'm inclined to give some merit to this guy's ideas... things are looking ominous over there and Obama's sending troops to Afghanistan as we speak.

The next few months are going to be interesting.


This scares the shit out of me and I hate saying that, but it's the truth. My oldest son's best friend is in the Army reserves and his troop is looking at the good possibility of going active before the end of this year because of the mess in Afghanistan. He's like my own son, so much so that he's currently living with us and I can't get the gutroll gone thinking about him going over there. I can't imagine what mine or his family would be like should something happen to him over there. Yes, I know this is what he's wanted to do from as far back as we can all remember, but it doesn't make it any easier, or better. I know this is what he signed up to do, but he's still a big part of my family and I DON'T want him to go THERE.

Back to the topic of this thread for a moment now. I was reading about the protests that are going on over the Islamic center and two things have made me think beyond just the hoopla that's been brewing.

I've noticed that the Imam that wants to build this center seems to think all this commotion is a good thing. That somehow this will open communication and will lead to healing. I'm wondering what kind of healing it is when people are yelling back and forth over protest lines.

I'm also wondering if anyone has thought of another "whatif". What if an American does decide to wage their own personal war against this center (and I mean more than just spray painting slurs)? Where will this whole thing be then? Will we be attacked again for something ONE person decided to take upon themselves to do? Where will the healing be in all of that? I know they have the freedom to build the center, and I know it's their constitutional right, but when will it be considered the "wrong" thing to do for all concerned? When there is fighting in the streets? When someone gets angry enough to start shooting or set off a bomb? When does the cost of freedom become too much for everyone concerned? All over a building....

I don't ever want to see something like 9/11 again in my home land and I really don't want to see another day like the day we attacked Iraq (though I must say our military's fire power was incredible to watch). I don't want to have to explain it to my youngest son either. It was hard enough telling a 10 year old, just days before his birthday, why 9/11 happened and why we were blowing up Iraq some months later.

The waffling continues....
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#42297 - 08/23/10 11:16 AM What you do yourself... [Re: Nyte]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
I've noticed that the Imam that wants to build this center seems to think all this commotion is a good thing. That somehow this will open communication and will lead to healing. I'm wondering what kind of healing it is when people are yelling back and forth over protest lines.

During protests there is always a frontman (with, preferably, the most brain capacity) who will try to state the opinion of the protesting masses in an objective way to open up a discussion. This "healing" is nothing more then a metaphore for indicating a possible discussion between them and the frontmen/women wherein points of views are shared during a constructive chat in hopes of a compromy.

The question which should arise would be if the persons doing the debate stand strong enough and manage to persuate the idea out of their minds. Why not try organising a major protest yourself and pulling yourself up as the frontman and discuss the points of view with them? I'm sure enough it'll be much better then throwing eggs.. (you can always keep it as a last resort when they are just narrow-minded and you really want to make the idea feel unwelcome).

 Quote:
I know they have the freedom to build the center, and I know it's their constitutional right, but when will it be considered the "wrong" thing to do for all concerned? When there is fighting in the streets? When someone gets angry enough to start shooting or set off a bomb? When does the cost of freedom become too much for everyone concerned? All over a building....

It is also your constitutional right to stand up and adress your negative feelings. Do not also forget you are living in a democracy ("cough cough") wherein the idea of "what the majority wants shall be endorsed/happening". Try opening up a sort of "voting" campaign wherein the people must choose if the mosque will be built or not.


Edited by Dimitri (08/23/10 11:19 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#42302 - 08/23/10 01:54 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Nyte]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Nyte

I've noticed that the Imam that wants to build this center seems to think all this commotion is a good thing. That somehow this will open communication and will lead to healing. I'm wondering what kind of healing it is when people are yelling back and forth over protest lines.


In the long term, he is probably right. If he can remain standing against the attacks of the unthinking multitude, he should prevail (usual caveats apply: skeletons in his closet, shady funding sources or relationships, etc.).


 Originally Posted By: Nyte

I'm also wondering if anyone has thought of another "whatif". What if an American does decide to wage their own personal war against this center (and I mean more than just spray painting slurs)? Where will this whole thing be then? Will we be attacked again for something ONE person decided to take upon themselves to do? Where will the healing be in all of that? I know they have the freedom to build the center, and I know it's their constitutional right, but when will it be considered the "wrong" thing to do for all concerned? When there is fighting in the streets? When someone gets angry enough to start shooting or set off a bomb? When does the cost of freedom become too much for everyone concerned? All over a building....


It will never be "wrong", from an intellectual point of view (assuming those wanting to build it have no ties back to the 9/11 perpetrators), even if there's fighting in the streets or bombs, because in this country everyone is equal under the law.

It will always be "wrong", from an emotional point of view, because humans are tribal (as Diavolo said) and "they" attacked "us".

You may choose your own point of view, but I advise against basing it on your "whatif"s, because that's basing your life on fear.

The essence of life is struggle and conflict. We've been fortunate enough in the U.S. to have an easy, tranquil life, relative to most of the rest of human existence, but it's not free, and it's not guaranteed. The price of that freedom is tolerance of those we disagree with; demanding that people be responsible for their own actions; and a volunteer military made of people like your son's friend (and others here at the 600C), who's not afraid to stand up for what he believes in and to risk his life so others can live free.

There is no Utopia. Some humans will always try to dominate others, some forcefully. Some humans will always be emotional and tribal, not understanding how you can defend "them". Some humans will always be intellectual, not understanding how you erroneously lump in "these" with "those". Even when everybody's peaceful, people will have different interests and goals.

In the end you can be responsible only for yourself. The best you can do, IMNSHO, is to understand as much as possible about what you want, what everybody else wants, and how best to get what you want. Know what you will and won't compromise on, and why. Know the consequences of your actions. Stand up to those who would push you around. If they attack with intent to kill, destroy them without mercy or remorse.

You won't always win, but that seems the path with the best odds to me. The U.S. usually (but not always) seems to follow this general line.

Otherwise you live in fear, and someone will own you through it.
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#42305 - 08/23/10 04:40 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Autodidact]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1737
Loc: New York
Damn right I live in fear, but so did many people who eventually rose up against repression.

I fear that the more you do to appease the barbaric Muslims, the more of my freedoms will be given away in order to appease them even more.

I fear the domino affect of more demands and more concessions that they will get once they get a major foothold in the U.S, as is happening now in Europe.

I fear the castrated American mentality that will allow such things to happen because no one of influence will want to make waves or to endanger their political careers.

I’ve thought long and hard on this subject, and you know what? FUCK their rights and civil liberties. Ever since 9/11 mine have been chipped away slowly but effectively. My library record, medical records, internet history, are now made available to just about anyone with a badge to view if they wish to do so.
I may not have more then one drivers license, and even the one that I am allowed MUST be registered to a physical home address, thereby assuring that I register with the government within ten days of moving to a new address, if I wish to obey the law; which by the way is getting harder and harder to do because more and more restrictive laws are past each day thanks to the turd prophet of the desert. (By the way, here's a picture of him ) Might as well enjoy making an image of him before it is outlawed outright.

Every time that I get a new job since 9/11, I have to subject myself to a stringent background check. You can no longer walk into a place and just get a job and start working the next day.

I might even have to subject myself to a full body x-ray anytime that I wish to travel in this FREE country. Not to mention all the other inconveniences that air travel now demands. Again thanks to <---Mohammed, the child molester.

“If we don’t allow them to have their civil liberties, then we will eventually lose ours,” is bullshit. We are already losing ours because of them.

Most of all, I fear looking at myself in the mirror one day (that is if it’s not illegal to do so by then,) and seeing a complacent arm chair protester looking back at me in disgust, because no matter what I say I too share the castrated American mentality that most people in this country now have, but at least I don’t stick my head in the sand, and make believe that everything will work itself out if we just allow those who would enslave us if they could, to partake in the civil liberties which they seek to destroy.

Fuck Islam and their “rights.” If they want rights and privileges, then they can start by allowing everyone to have them as well back in that venom pit of shit where they originated from.

Sure let them have their Mosque right next to where they murdered thousands of people from all over the world. Hell, I will go out and help them paint it a nice dark brown, and will even paint the front side walk with all the nation's flags to represent everyone who were murdered there.
That way it will be a more perfect representation of what that Mosque truly is. A tall loaf of shit taken on the rest of the world by Islam, including those pathetic sheep from the western countries who converted to their psychoses. (By the way American Muslims make snake charming chrisitans look like Einstein)

Am I being emotional? Fuck yes I am, but I know where that emotion is coming from. Fear.
Fear is good, it is what allows living things to survive, unless your an Ostrich.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#42316 - 08/23/10 07:43 PM Re: What you do yourself... [Re: Dimitri]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
I've noticed that the Imam that wants to build this center seems to think all this commotion is a good thing. That somehow this will open communication and will lead to healing. I'm wondering what kind of healing it is when people are yelling back and forth over protest lines.

During protests there is always a frontman (with, preferably, the most brain capacity) who will try to state the opinion of the protesting masses in an objective way to open up a discussion. This "healing" is nothing more then a metaphore for indicating a possible discussion between them and the frontmen/women wherein points of views are shared during a constructive chat in hopes of a compromy.

The question which should arise would be if the persons doing the debate stand strong enough and manage to persuate the idea out of their minds. Why not try organising a major protest yourself and pulling yourself up as the frontman and discuss the points of view with them? I'm sure enough it'll be much better then throwing eggs.. (you can always keep it as a last resort when they are just narrow-minded and you really want to make the idea feel unwelcome).


I would love to think your scenerio is true, but sadly I've watched many protests and that's not always the case. As much as I'd love to have the finances, time, etc., to be able to pull together a protest that was more rational, sadly that's not the case. My family needs to be cared for, and for that reason alone, I won't be able to travel to NY to protest the way I would like to. I know I could probably find someone to finance the trip if I presented my point of view well enough, but I don't think they'd pay my wages while I was gone, or get my youngest off to school, or do the normal "home" things for me. I chose to be a wife, a mother, and an employee and those things must come first, in my life.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
I know they have the freedom to build the center, and I know it's their constitutional right, but when will it be considered the "wrong" thing to do for all concerned? When there is fighting in the streets? When someone gets angry enough to start shooting or set off a bomb? When does the cost of freedom become too much for everyone concerned? All over a building....

It is also your constitutional right to stand up and adress your negative feelings. Do not also forget you are living in a democracy ("cough cough") wherein the idea of "what the majority wants shall be endorsed/happening". Try opening up a sort of "voting" campaign wherein the people must choose if the mosque will be built or not.


I haven't forgotten that I "can have a voice" in what is happening in my country. Money is what does override anyone's voice in this country though, and because I don't have money to just throw at something like this, my voice will not be heard. I'm not stupid to the way our country "works" and must pick and choose my battles. This is one I can only work out for myself, and can't fix for everyone else.

The 600 Club has been a good outlet for me, and for now, it will have to remain a way for me to not only learn but voice what I feel, possibly giving way to more growth. Who knows, it may lead to a day where I CAN set up a "voting" of sorts that will make a difference. For now, I can just read, question and learn. I know my own limits at this current time in my life.
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#42320 - 08/23/10 08:39 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Autodidact]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
 Originally Posted By: Nyte

I've noticed that the Imam that wants to build this center seems to think all this commotion is a good thing. That somehow this will open communication and will lead to healing. I'm wondering what kind of healing it is when people are yelling back and forth over protest lines.


In the long term, he is probably right. If he can remain standing against the attacks of the unthinking multitude, he should prevail (usual caveats apply: skeletons in his closet, shady funding sources or relationships, etc.).


He's going to have to start answering questions if he wants to really remain standing in all of this. He's leaving himself way too open from all directions and that very fault is going to kick him in the ass, in the long run.

 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
 Originally Posted By: Nyte

I'm also wondering if anyone has thought of another "whatif". What if an American does decide to wage their own personal war against this center (and I mean more than just spray painting slurs)? Where will this whole thing be then? Will we be attacked again for something ONE person decided to take upon themselves to do? Where will the healing be in all of that? I know they have the freedom to build the center, and I know it's their constitutional right, but when will it be considered the "wrong" thing to do for all concerned? When there is fighting in the streets? When someone gets angry enough to start shooting or set off a bomb? When does the cost of freedom become too much for everyone concerned? All over a building....


It will never be "wrong", from an intellectual point of view (assuming those wanting to build it have no ties back to the 9/11 perpetrators), even if there's fighting in the streets or bombs, because in this country everyone is equal under the law.

It will always be "wrong", from an emotional point of view, because humans are tribal (as Diavolo said) and "they" attacked "us".

You may choose your own point of view, but I advise against basing it on your "whatif"s, because that's basing your life on fear.

The essence of life is struggle and conflict. We've been fortunate enough in the U.S. to have an easy, tranquil life, relative to most of the rest of human existence, but it's not free, and it's not guaranteed. The price of that freedom is tolerance of those we disagree with; demanding that people be responsible for their own actions; and a volunteer military made of people like your son's friend (and others here at the 600C), who's not afraid to stand up for what he believes in and to risk his life so others can live free.

There is no Utopia. Some humans will always try to dominate others, some forcefully. Some humans will always be emotional and tribal, not understanding how you can defend "them". Some humans will always be intellectual, not understanding how you erroneously lump in "these" with "those". Even when everybody's peaceful, people will have different interests and goals.

In the end you can be responsible only for yourself. The best you can do, IMNSHO, is to understand as much as possible about what you want, what everybody else wants, and how best to get what you want. Know what you will and won't compromise on, and why. Know the consequences of your actions. Stand up to those who would push you around. If they attack with intent to kill, destroy them without mercy or remorse.

You won't always win, but that seems the path with the best odds to me. The U.S. usually (but not always) seems to follow this general line.

Otherwise you live in fear, and someone will own you through it.


Fear can be a great motivator. Without fear, we might never stand up for ourselves, or those that we care about. My fear makes me work out if something is worth doing or not. Without fear, some may never weigh out what the out come of their actions could be. Not taking that time means that someone is being completely controled by their emotions, never realizing what the final result will be to their actions and how it may actually affect others directly around them. Rationality takes hold when we weigh the out comes, all scenerios thought through completely before we take action. That's what sets us apart from much of the animal word. We have the ability to think things through, including but not limited to our fears, and make decisions based on rationale, rather than being completely primal enough to react without thought.

We have 2 prime examples of what happens when fear takes hold in this country and the only out comes were what a very specific group of people wanted. Yes, they used the masses fear to keep people where they wanted them during the Vietnam and Iraq wars. The problem is, no one else thought their fears through or the "whatifs". Very few voiced themselves against the wars until it was too late. We were there and had all ready ensured that we would have to stay for the duration.

I don't think either party in this whole mess with the Islamic center have thought this through very well. They haven't weighed the "whatifs" and are focussing on the here and now, their views only. That does concern me, because we've seen what happens when things aren't thought through when it comes to this country (just look at the Patriot Act, our airports, general restrictions as Asmedious has pointed out). At least my fears are defined enough I now know how to work through them and they can't be used against me. There is a difference between living IN fear and knowing the possible outcomes (working through fear) because someone else didn't think things through completely.
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#42323 - 08/23/10 09:09 PM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Nyte]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
I think we're basically on the same page, though we're using the word "fear" in slightly different manners.

The "whatif"s I was referring to were what you wrote in your original - basically, "if we do something, somebody else might choose to do something 'bad' in response", which is equated by fear slaves into "if we don't do anything, therefore, nothing bad will happen".

The thinking-through of consequences doesn't have to be motivated by fear; AAMOF, in the sense I'm using it, fear precludes such thinking; but yeah, I think we're essentially saying the same thing there.

The behavior of the various factions in this issue - or, indeed, most issues nowadays, it seems - is predictably polarized. Pro and con, right and wrong, them and us. Observe and ponder - who these emotionally-driven people typically are, why they act like that, what information they get. Compare and contrast with your own method of thinking and acting. (Bonus question: after working out the why and the how, think about how you would push an agenda you felt strongly about, given massive resources)

Then consider if there are further modes of thinking beyond these two. Then think about stratification.

We may all be created equal - do we all remain equal?

(Hm, too much gin results in me waxing scholastic. Apologies )
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#42337 - 08/24/10 02:32 AM Re: What you do yourself... [Re: Nyte]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
I haven't forgotten that I "can have a voice" in what is happening in my country. Money is what does override anyone's voice in this country though, and because I don't have money to just throw at something like this, my voice will not be heard.

I agree on the point where "money makes power" is a philosophy in our current society. But not having much money does not mean you can't let things happen.
I like to refer to the idea we Belgians once had "Eendracht maakt macht/ l'unité faites la force", which can be loosely translated in "power to the masses". Sometimes you don't need to use explosives to move a mountain, sometimes just throwing a little pebble might result in an avalanche.

 Quote:
I would love to think your scenerio is true, but sadly I've watched many protests and that's not always the case.

That's why I asked the question why you don't take matters at hand. A discussion like this can be insightfull and a relief to some to give opinions about this topic, but it is in no way constructive in making actual changes. Most people will be disappointed/angered when the thing is being built, they had it comming. Some of them had the time and resources to make a change, they simply didn't fucking stood-up and made a change. They decided to rant about it, voicing their opinions in places which had no influence or direct impact on the situation (such as this discussion/topic btw).

If my memory serves correctly: wasn't life outside the virtual reality not the biggest teacher and the Satanists class room and practice area?

I can quite understand the reasoning for not being able to do so, but hell, sometimes emailing to the frontpersons of the opposite party itself can be much more enlighting.

 Quote:
I know my own limits at this current time in my life.

How about pushing those limits? There are many things you can do as long as your goals are steady set, are creative enough and have the willpower to try and make a change.
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#42513 - 08/26/10 08:59 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Knievel74 Offline
member


Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
In case anyone hasn't seen it. Here's a video by British comedian Pat Condell on the building of the Mosque. It's pretty insightful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dWcB5zbV-A&feature=related
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#42514 - 08/26/10 09:07 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Knievel74]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
LOL! Fuuuuuuuuuucked it up... but I actually remember this when it aired LIVE.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#42516 - 08/26/10 11:51 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Knievel74]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1139
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Knievel74
In case anyone hasn't seen it. Here's a video by British comedian Pat Condell on the building of the Mosque. It's pretty insightful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dWcB5zbV-A&feature=related


Is this a goofed link or a new Rick Roll?

I don't know if anyone actually wanted to see what Condell said, but just in case: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4
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#42521 - 08/27/10 12:53 AM Re: "Transcend the Bullshit." [Re: Autodidact]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
I think we're basically on the same page, though we're using the word "fear" in slightly different manners.

The "whatif"s I was referring to were what you wrote in your original - basically, "if we do something, somebody else might choose to do something 'bad' in response", which is equated by fear slaves into "if we don't do anything, therefore, nothing bad will happen".

The thinking-through of consequences doesn't have to be motivated by fear; AAMOF, in the sense I'm using it, fear precludes such thinking; but yeah, I think we're essentially saying the same thing there.

The behavior of the various factions in this issue - or, indeed, most issues nowadays, it seems - is predictably polarized. Pro and con, right and wrong, them and us. Observe and ponder - who these emotionally-driven people typically are, why they act like that, what information they get. Compare and contrast with your own method of thinking and acting. (Bonus question: after working out the why and the how, think about how you would push an agenda you felt strongly about, given massive resources)

Then consider if there are further modes of thinking beyond these two. Then think about stratification.

We may all be created equal - do we all remain equal?

(Hm, too much gin results in me waxing scholastic. Apologies )


LOL...I think your gin got the better of you.

I know there are things I could do right now, provided I really wanted to. However, at this time in my life, I know they have the Constitutional right to build that Islamic Center and although I don't like it, won't join in the mayhem of protesting it. So long as our government makes sure the money trail is "clean" and they watch what goes on there closely, I'm going to rest on my laurels with this one. I don't know if I really trust anyone to make sure of that, but this time, knowing what I DO know, I feel fairly sure this one is "out of my hands". Still doesn't mean I have to like it though.

To answer your "bonus question"...(and completely different scenario)...The latest brewha that I'm worried about is our government stepping into the food industry and making it so that foods and drinks made with real sugar and real sugar derivatives are no longer available to the public. If that happens, I'm in real trouble and will stand up shouting, instead of just airing out my "whatifs" here. I will find a way to make sure they know how dangerous the artificial sweeteners are to people, in general, not just me. I have a life-threatening allergy to artificial sweeteners (my liver starts to shut down shortly after consuming anything with that crap in it). To boot, my oldest has CF and artificial sweeteners are NOT good for him at all, along with 1000's of other people with CF (due to the diuretic affect they can have). I'd do more than weigh out the possible scenarios and would be hell bent on getting them to see "my point of view", starting at the top and working my way down, one way or another.

Like I said, it's about choosing my battles and choosing them wisely, knowing when I have to fight and when it's something I won't be able to change. I know when it's wise to use up my resources and when it's not. I'm aware of when I can and have to make a difference and when my opposition has the upper hand.
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#42522 - 08/27/10 01:27 AM Re: What you do yourself... [Re: Dimitri]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
I haven't forgotten that I "can have a voice" in what is happening in my country. Money is what does override anyone's voice in this country though, and because I don't have money to just throw at something like this, my voice will not be heard.

I agree on the point where "money makes power" is a philosophy in our current society. But not having much money does not mean you can't let things happen.
I like to refer to the idea we Belgians once had "Eendracht maakt macht/ l'unité faites la force", which can be loosely translated in "power to the masses". Sometimes you don't need to use explosives to move a mountain, sometimes just throwing a little pebble might result in an avalanche.


Oh, I completely agree that even the smallest and poorest of voices can be heard when they really want to be. I know there could be ways that I could be heard. But something through this conversation has stuck with me and that means more than all of my fears put together. They DO have the Constitutional right to build that Islamic center there. I can only hope that the "right" people keep track of what money goes into that place and what kinds of things go on there.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
I would love to think your scenerio is true, but sadly I've watched many protests and that's not always the case.

That's why I asked the question why you don't take matters at hand. A discussion like this can be insightfull and a relief to some to give opinions about this topic, but it is in no way constructive in making actual changes. Most people will be disappointed/angered when the thing is being built, they had it comming. Some of them had the time and resources to make a change, they simply didn't fucking stood-up and made a change. They decided to rant about it, voicing their opinions in places which had no influence or direct impact on the situation (such as this discussion/topic btw).

If my memory serves correctly: wasn't life outside the virtual reality not the biggest teacher and the Satanists class room and practice area?

I can quite understand the reasoning for not being able to do so, but hell, sometimes emailing to the frontpersons of the opposite party itself can be much more enlighting.


I've weighed this topic back and forth so many times. I've thought a lot of this conversation through (working nights does have it's advantages). I know what you are saying Dimitri, and understand it completely. Do I have that much time and desire to try to affect this particular situation? Not really. I know they have the right to their building, and that DOES make a difference to what I will follow through on. I'll be hoping the whole time that the "right" people will be watching them very closely. Hell, I might even become one of those people that's watching.


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
I know my own limits at this current time in my life.

How about pushing those limits? There are many things you can do as long as your goals are steady set, are creative enough and have the willpower to try and make a change.


Have done that many, many a time. Right now, with this situation, nope. Through this whole thing, I've been able to define my fears (and whatifs), put them into perspective and realize that even though I don't like it, they have the right AND freedom to build anyway. I know when to push my limits and when my resources are better spent else where. Now, if the situation changes, my perspective might change, as well as my direction.
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#42523 - 08/27/10 01:33 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Jake999]
Knievel74 Offline
member


Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
LOL! Fuuuuuuuuuucked it up... but I actually remember this when it aired LIVE.


LOL!!! Oh, shit! Wrong link. Sorry about that \:\) \:\) I'm getting my girlfriend into KISS so I've been sending her links.

Thanks for the save, Xiao!

So yeah, check out Condell's video - from Xiao - on the Mosque.

...and KISS rocks!!!
_________________________
"Man was meant to live, not just to exist". - Evel Knievel

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#42590 - 08/28/10 10:02 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Knievel74]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Quote:
Can you be a Muslim and an American patriot? You can if you don't care very much about being a Muslim. If you squint and look away, you can avoid thinking about the very basic clashes between the submissive, collectivist values of Islam and the individualist, libertarian values of the democratic West.

In a 2007 poll by the Pew Center, 63 percent of U.S. Muslims said they saw no conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society. But 32 percent conceded that, yes, there is such a conflict, and almost 50 percent of the Muslim American questioned in that poll said they think of themselves as Muslims first, Americans second. Only 28 percent, little more than a quarter, considered themselves Americans first.

Asked whether suicide bombing can be justified as a measure to defend Islam, 26 percent of American Muslims age eighteen to twenty-nine said yes. That is one quarter of the adult American Muslims under the age of thirty, and no matter how you count the number of Muslims in America (estimates vary from 2 million to 8 million), that is a lot of people.


Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Nomad – Excerpts
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/483/muslim-americans

D.

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#42615 - 08/29/10 10:18 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Diavolo]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
On the subject of Islam and patriotism I thought this piece from the "Ottawa Citizen" by American Muslims was both interesting and reasoned.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html#ixzz0wcZNOGAS
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#49989 - 02/27/11 03:28 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I can't write what I would like because of law.

So,

It's a deliberate culture clash, NWO merging opposing paradigms, submerge society into Chaos. The emergence of new Order. This is only a good thing. Why?

The worlds people are just a banal eternal recurrence especially when you look at them in their own inane equality pathos, humans are a mass of clay that can to be moulded by a architect. War and destruction are the tools of an art form which will never die out because the canvas just keeps arriving anew, humans keep being born. The globe is just a supply of eternally recurring materials for the architects to work with and make a vastly different state of structure.

Let the humans build whatever they like, after all they are all equal and the same. Worthless clay.

Monotonous absurdity—society.
_________________________


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#52371 - 04/07/11 11:48 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Religious extremists (goes the official version) attacked the financial center of the US.


Yes they did. However reality of is that they did not attack for religious reasons. All nations and cultures clash, violently this is the nature of man.


 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Proponents of that same religion then seek to build a place of worship where that financial center used to be.


*Well one could actually argue that it is not the same religion, that the attackers subscribed to a violent philosophy, a violent religion while these individuals do not believe murdering innocents is a sacrament. In addition the "mosque" is not a mosque but a cultural/community center and the building is not going to be at the site of the towers. i think the would find it difficult to build on the top the "freedom tower memorial" thing. In the fact the slated construction site is blocks away, be aware that there is already a functioning mosque which is closer to ground zero. Not to mention the obvious fact that there first amendment counts for muslims too. Americans also have the right to philosophically support terrorism, so this point also has no merit.

 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Do you not see that as symbolic of a victory of religion over commerce?


No it is a victory over commerce. Religion doesn't conquer, people do. Once again even if this is intended to be some sort "victory mosque" to show support for Al Qaeda, which it is not, this is not illegal. Remember that we fight people not ideas, if we are at war with islam as a religion then we will lose because ideas never die.

 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Why pick that exact location?



I think that they picked this location to be symbolic of American civility, that in the U.S. because we are civiled we don't deny different groups the rights that are theirs. That in the U.S. we should strive to live up to our ideals of liberty and justice for ALL. That is the only symbolic meaning behind it.

Honestly soulds like you're watching to much Fox News, because as Mr. Acquino put it I would expect a Satanist to know better than this.

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#52376 - 04/07/11 12:14 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Meph9]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Enough with your PC garbage. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com Go there, read, educate yourself and stop believing everything that every hand holding, let's all love each other, patchouli stinking hippie tells you.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#52377 - 04/07/11 12:27 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Meph9]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Meph9

Honestly soulds like you're watching to much Fox News, because as Mr. Acquino put it I would expect a Satanist to know better than this.


Honestly, I think you need a remedial reading class.

If you had noticed the posts before and after the one you chose to quote, you would (and again I'm probably giving you too much credit) notice that I never actually took a hard position on any of it but, rather, threw out the news of the day, in the context of the day (which was quite a bit of time ago), for discussion.

This is the second time I've had to bring you up to speed just to begin to converse with you and honestly it's too much effort.

The rest of your post is you presuming to teach the reader (me or anyone else reading) things that are blatantly (and painfully) obvious and have already been covered on the thread (sometimes, numerous times).
_________________________
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#52419 - 04/07/11 07:25 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
Someone who supposedly knows or understands the facts involved doesn't make stupid comment in the first place. No one said people can live in peace, mankind only acheives growth through struggle and hardship, violence and warfare but religion is never the cause it.

If one can not see that fact then you're misleading yourself.

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#52424 - 04/07/11 09:29 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Meph9]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
but religion is never the cause it.


Are you serious? It's official, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say. Ever.
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No gods. No masters.

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#52428 - 04/07/11 10:11 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I had to blink my eyes and check his profile for a moment. Only 20, but I ASSUME they had some kind of schooling and had to have heard at least of the Crusades...

You could easily argue that the wars against the Aztec and Mayan civilizations by the Spanish were religious wars, although the chief byproduct was stolen gold and dead natives... the stated goal was Christianization of the heathens.

And the Arab Israeli wars... ostensibly about land rights but obviously religiously motivated.

The ongoing wars between the Tutsi and Huttus in Africa

The Kurdish/Shia conflicts in Kurdistan and parts of Turkey

The Shia/Sunni conflict through much of the Iraqi/Iranian sphere

Lebanon and Israel

The 17th Century Thirty Years War in Europe between the Catholics and the Protestants

The French Religious War between Catholics and Hugonauts

Just off the top of my head...
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#52433 - 04/07/11 11:38 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Jake999]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
I'm done with this one. It's dumber than a stump.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#52449 - 04/08/11 02:15 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
At the heart of all conflict is the competition for resources. Think for a moment what does religion as a concept do for mankind in terms of their physical needs. It can not feed, protect, shelter etc. them in any way. Religion provides benefit to mind not the body and thus is unlimited, there is no competition for this resource. The reality is that it comes down to those people have what we want and they don't want to share so lets go kill them and take it. To blame abstract ideas for any actions in the real world is silly, religion and politics are used as scapegoats because humanity has an innate desire to avoid taking responsibility for any of its negative actions.
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#52452 - 04/08/11 02:27 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Meph9]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
At the heart of all conflict is the competition for resources.


And what resources could the city of Jerusalem have offered that couldn't have been more easily obtained from closer sources and without all the bloodshed? The Crusades were no conflicts over natural resources, they were conflicts over a land mass that was perceived to be holy by two different religions.

You really have no clue what you are talking about. I suggest you go away and don't come back until you pull your head out of your ass.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#52454 - 04/08/11 03:19 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Fnord]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
I think that what Meph9 is driving at here is that the underlying motive for wars has been the control of territory and resources (including people). Religion, like political ideology, is just a PSYOP control device employed by governing individuals/cliques to get the masses to fight. I think this is a point well-taken.

Without some kind of psychological goad, threat, provocation, or fear, there is no reason for the masses of one area to fight those of another - particularly if they are not going to be the ones to get the others' gold, women, oil, land, etc.

"Religion" was not much of a tool in the pre-Christian West; most of the ancient Classical cultures didn't much care whom/what you worshipped as long as you didn't get pushy about it like the Jews/Christians. Wars were fought for sensible reasons like turf, gold, and sex [the Sabines, Troy, Cleopatra, etc.].

In post-Classical, Christianized Europe, turf & gold were still in fashion. Not sure about women; the ugly ones probably weren't worth fighting over, and the good-looking ones were busy being burnt as witches. Anyhow the gold was supposed to be down-east with the Infidels, so Christiandom was fanned up into Crusademania. By the time this schtick had been exhausted and whatever stealable stolen, along came the Reformation. Now Europe's turf&goldgrabbers could get Catholics to fight Protestants, and of course heathen savages discovered anyplace else that might have turf/gold. And so on until the Enlightenment, after which general discrediting of religion, secular scare-ideologies became the new PSYOP devices. Hence "Socialism!" "Marxism!" "anarchism!" "fascism!" "Communism!" and now "Terrorism!" . [Until the Red Scare got going in the late '40s, I think we dabbled with UFO invasions (Roswell, Blue Book, etc.) but concluded that was more cool & fun than scary. Still is.]

So today is Islam the cause of all this war? Of course not. It's just oil, which just happens to be buried in places like Iraq & Libya. Muslims have been around for a long time, and when left alone tend to leave others alone. Of course if non-Muslims suddenly show up and steal their lands, shoot/bomb them, wall them in, blockade them, "sanction" them, and instigate/prop up police-state dictators over them, they might be excused for becoming just a bit testy.

Has conventional religion been used as a PSYOP device for war? Sure. Is it the underlying motivation for wars? Not unless kings, clergy, presidents, or dictators sell it as such.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#52501 - 04/08/11 05:42 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: XiaoGui17]
mightisright Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 24
I see no problem with the new mosque, that is, unless extremists are going to use it as a way to gain access to America. I truly don't care much about the issue as long as it doesn't affect me!
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#52502 - 04/08/11 05:51 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: mightisright]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: mightisright
I see no problem with the new mosque, that is, unless extremists are going to use it as a way to gain access to America.


What, via a tunnel under the Atlantic?

 Originally Posted By: mightisright
I truly don't care much about the issue as long as it doesn't affect me!


Even that gives is too much credence, because you've filed it away under "doesn't affect me", with a hanging implication that there's something there someone may be "worried" about.

Use your brain. The whole issue is bunk, emotional rhetoric to stir people up, but it exists. Examine it, see who's talking and why, and what effect it has on people. Learn something from it.
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#52508 - 04/08/11 06:43 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Quote:
Has conventional religion been used as a PSYOP device for war? Sure. Is it the underlying motivation for wars? Not unless kings, clergy, presidents, or dictators sell it as such.


Viewed in terms of its historical development, it can be argued that War was and is the victim of an idea akin to a "hijacking". This "hijacking" occurred over such an extended period of time that the victims (kings, clergy, presidents or dictators) were very seldom conscious of 'being taken for a ride' against their Will. With the said opinion, one is tempted to believe that the unseen cause may be due to possibly a single prophet able to forsee that over many centuries, '...men would be drawn to their own burning Deaths by the influence from another'.

When I add the many more millions of seemingly innocent men, women and children who burned with the soldiers (used loosely) through the advent of War(s), I conclude that the preceding quote has to be arrived at by a full understanding. Otherwise, one is left with inadequate Knowledge. Even more to the point, a French scholar notes that, '...killing is Evil only in the event the killer fails to recognize his intended victim'. A second example: if one no longer sees his opponent as a living human being, then he is free to kill the opponent at Will. (A tactic and rule and definition of Wars.) However, the cost was and is that when under pressure from above (kings, clergy, presidents or dictators) warrior patrons with the modern subservience to a government become "unhinged" thereby losing the internal, moral compass with only the outer shell of the feuding warrior remaining.

Furthermore, I can sympathize with the remarks based on a collective greed of each warring state that is integral to the structure of all states as they exist in the world. The so-called "defensive Wars" that nations inevitably claim to be fighting are no more than convenient facades to disguise the pursuit of national aggrandizement euphemistically known as the "national intest".

One must be aware of a dilemma when discoursing about War:

1) There is the ever-present danger of talking mere nonsense, for the ultimate reason of War is that all words and their referents are conventional. At the same time, there are things one can say without lapsing into nonsense by way of displaying or exhibiting, e.g. reasons for War.
2) By distinguishing the conventional from the ultimate reason for War(s), one is developing a sort of theory of one truth and one falsehood for becoming engaged in conflict.

Ciao...666

;\)
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666
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#55178 - 05/29/11 05:12 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: paolo sette]
SerialKeller Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 19
Loc: Scotland
My opinion on the subject of Islam over here is a little conflicted. To sum it up very quickly I believe that most real Muslims are good, but either way, they should not be here.

Most of the war between "them" and us (I assume "they" are Al-Qaeda but maybe there's something behind it), is fought non-violently, believe it or not. Most of it comes down to pressure. In some areas near where I live, Islam is the next big thing. Being part of a "Muslim gang" (contradiction?) is seen as "cool". And women who date Muslim men are seen as good in some way I just can't explain.

Most of the invasion is them peacefully integrating themselves into our culture, and then eventually pushing it aside and off the edge. Then you get a few terrorists who think (though mainly in Scandinavia, not here) we have a duty to be soft on them to avoid being racist, or who just have an inferiority complex (more common here) and want to rub in our faces that they are gaining control.

I think no mosque should be here, or on Ground Zero, or anywhere that isn't "Muslim land". If I want to experience different culture, I have the internet, or my passport, or a "middle ground" somewhere in the world. But I believe while they shouldn't be here, I will resist the urge to be a dumb racist buying into other people's ideology, and instead I will donate £5 a week to their flight home.

I think I will be aggressively flamed for this. But that's my life, I'll try not to get mad.

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#55181 - 05/29/11 05:26 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: SerialKeller]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City

"Most of the war between "them" and us (I assume "they" are Al-Qaeda but maybe there's something behind it), is fought non-violently, believe it or not."

Are you fucking kidding me?? Do you read the newspaper or watch television new programs??? Do you have any idea about current events that happen in America, England, Spain, Russia, and the Middle East???

"women who date Muslim men are seen as good in some way I just can't explain."

Why? because they might have money from back home? Chances are that unless they need a green card or whatever they have in Scotland, they won't let anything go beyond dating and fucking. They wont take a "white" woman home to their family as a wife, it would be a disgrace.

They are spreading and trying to influence laws and cultures because that is what every culture does. It either conquers or dies out once in a foreign land.

"But I believe while they shouldn't be here, I will resist the urge to be a dumb racist buying into other people's ideology, and instead I will donate £5 a week to their flight home."

Taking a stand isn't always racist. Sometimes you have to stand in what you believe even if it will be unpopular.

Nothing worth it is ever easy. The Satanic path sure as shit is hard, and unpopular.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#55186 - 05/29/11 05:43 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Morgan]
SerialKeller Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 19
Loc: Scotland
I'm glad you didn't flame me, Morgan.
I know there is a lot of violence done on the behalf of "Islam" (debatable), but when I said most of the war is fought non-violently, I didn't mean there isn't much violence. There's a lot of the war. Most of it is non-violently, or doesn't involve direct violence. We are being taught to "accept" them (also wrongly known as "being open-minded" and "welcoming"), before they can kill us.

Besides, I don't trust the news. I believe they wouldn't get away with lying completely, but I think they exaggerate so much. I would rather hear from victims and perpetrators themselves.

I know you live in the USA, and it's a little different for you than it is for Europe, but over here if a Muslim man takes a non-Muslim home, it's seen as a successful conversion most of the time, not a disgrace. Because most women won't convert him or his family, anyway. I think also if you look into it, you will see this in the USA, but I don't know. But most of it comes down to that wearing a big badge saying "Paki" makes you hard, or cool, or smooth, or desirable, apparently.

Specifically here in Glasgow, I noticed we are more hostile to the invasion than most other parts of the UK are, though, probably because we are conditioned to either be part of the mainstream "Normal" culture (through violence and pressure), or fight to be ourselves. So an outsider who tries to change us is a big NO for both.

I think we just can't turn our heads away from the "integration", just because there's bombing happening too.

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#55191 - 05/29/11 07:23 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: SerialKeller]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
Excerpt from:

Muslim Martyrs & Jihad

 Quote:
Muslim Martyrs & Jihad

Compiled by Jennifer King

2005/08/02

Islamic law is based on the Koran and the Sunnah, the life of Muhammad, which is recorded in the hadiths, traditions, the stories of Ibn Ishaq, Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim, and enforced in the Islamic fiqh, sharia law. Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, inspired a religious ideal of killing non-Muslims and death in Allah’s Cause, Holy War, Jihad. All Muslims who fight and kill infidels are obeying this obligatory religious law, copying the ‘perfect example’ of Muhammad, who was a professional bandit and warlord, the first and most successful of all Muslim terrorists.

ISLAMIC LAW: ISLAM Q&A

Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

These laws for all Muslims today explain that Jihad, holy war, is the highest virtue for Muslims ‘the pinnacle of Islam’. Martyrdom - fighting, killing infidels and dying for Islam is the very highest goal for all Muslims, the ‘perfect example’ of their prophet, Muhammad. Muslims who fight non-Muslims and die are the very best of all Muslims, the holy martyrs, shaheed, the only Muslims to attain Allah’s highest paradise. The Hypocrites are peaceful, tolerant Muslims who join or support non-Muslims in any way. They are the very worst Muslims, doomed to Allah’s hell.

RULINGS ON JIHAD:

Questions #8961,

Is jihad considered obligatory?

Answer:

Jihaad to make the word of Allaah supreme, to protect the religion of Islam, to enable spreading the faith and to protect the things it holds sacred, is an obligation upon everyone who is able to do it. If jihaad begins and the Muslims are mobilized, then everyone who is able should answer the call, sincerely for the sake of Allaah, hoping for truth to prevail and to protect Islam. Whoever holds back from that when the call has been made, with no valid excuse, is a sinner.

Question #5275,

Can we really participate in Jihaad when we don't have any khalifa to organise us, or we don't have the strength to fight them?


Answer :

Jihaad for the sake of Allaah is the pinnacle of Islam, and is one of the principles of the religion. It does not depend on there being an imaam (khaleefah or ruler)… But obviously jihaad requires preparation and organization, and the existence of a leader of the army who can weigh up the pros and cons.

Question #26125

What is the difference between "Jihad" and "Qitaal" ?.


Answer :

The word jihad is more general than the word qitaal (fighting). Jihaad may be with the tongue (by speaking out), or with weapons (which is qitaal or fighting) or with money. Each of these categories includes numerous subcategories.

Qitaal may only be done with weapons; it includes fighting the kaafirs, fighting the wrongdoers and fighting the Khawaarij.

The greatest kind of fighting is fighting those who disbelieve, for Allaah has commanded us to fight them. Allaah says:

“Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allaah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad), (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” 9:29

“O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you” 9:123

Jihaad against the kuffaar with weapons is of two types: jihad talab (offensive jihad) and jihad daf’ (defensive jihad).

Jihad talab means attacking the kuffaar in their own lands until they become Muslim or pay the jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been commanded to fight the people until they bear witness that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and establish regular prayer, and pay zakaah. If they do that, then they have protected their blood and their wealth from me, except in cases decreed by Islamic law, and their reckoning with be with Allaah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 25; Muslim, 20.

The second type is jihad al-daf’ (defensive jihad). If the enemy attacks a Muslim country or fights a Muslim country, then jihad is obligatory in that case. If the people of that country are able to undertake this obligation, then all well and good, and the others should support them.


What does this mean boys and girls? Regardless of their location, and what they want you to believe they are mandated to attack, or support anyone who attacks non believers. They support Jihad either by fleshly means, or financially.

They are using our laws and culture of tolerance against us to stage attacks, and create chaos. We, meaning society where you live has softened to the point where "we" turn the other cheek and hope what they say is what they mean. "Islam preaches peace"....

Yes, to other Muslims.

Even the now fish food Osama recorded speeches where he offered to coach the American people to conversion. This was an offering of peace, to submit to Muslim control and all attacks would cease. Osama was following Muslim law when he did this, as benevolent as he was. (Yes, that was sarcasm)

Believe what you will. I know what the agenda is. We are sleeping with the enemy, and we will all suffer for it.
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#55192 - 05/29/11 09:55 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
Regardless of their location, and what they want you to believe they are mandated to attack, or support anyone who attacks non believers. They support Jihad either by fleshly means, or financially.

They are using our laws and culture of tolerance against us to stage attacks, and create chaos. We, meaning society where you live has softened to the point where "we" turn the other cheek and hope what they say is what they mean. "Islam preaches peace"....


They? Arabs? Muslims? Muslim Arabs? American Muslims Arab-American Muslims?

Us? White people? White americans? Americans? Muslim Americans? Or dare I say, white Muslim Americans?


Edited by The Zebu (05/29/11 09:56 PM)
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#55193 - 05/29/11 10:00 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: The Zebu]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
All of the above.

When one says "Muslim" or Islam, I am bunching them all together. I didnt write the Koran, read it, or touch it even if it was on a bookshelf. "Their" holy book preaches Jihad. The location matters not. The race matters not. Just as in the bible, it attracts all walks of life and Christians come from all races and creeds.

White, black, purple, or fuzzy. Muslims.....

Jihad is a religious mandate. If they believe in their prophet, or their holy book.....and their role in it. I mean all of them.
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#55199 - 05/29/11 11:57 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: SerialKeller]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"Most of it is non-violently, or doesn't involve direct violence"

Really, how interesting....
Can you give examples of what the hell you are talking about?
Are you referring to propaganda from either side?

"I would rather hear from victims and perpetrators themselves."
Well, Osama is dead, as is my cousins husband, among others.
Do you own a Ouija board?

Does this mean you don't think the Holocaust happened either? Many of the perps and victims are dead. So if they are dead and you didn't meet them, it never happened?

Paki, like Pakistani? Those don't count. They primary stay here, run 7-11, like big white blonde chicks, and hardly are considered muslims. The main problem is with Arabic Muslims, which is what I was referring to.

"But most of it comes down to that wearing a big badge saying "Paki" makes you hard, or cool, or smooth, or desirable, apparently."

Really, lol, not here. That's the funniest thing I have heard all day.

"I think we just can't turn our heads away from the "integration", just because there's bombing happening too."

That was kinda the point of the article. They don't want a forced integration of a mosque anywhere near ground zero.

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#55212 - 05/30/11 12:43 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
I didnt write the Koran, read it, or touch it even if it was on a bookshelf.


So I can readily assume that you've only seen verses pulled out of context to make the Quran seem like a terrorist's handbook.

Won't even touch it? It's just a mass of paper splattered with ink. It won't bite you. Geez.

Does Moses 'mandate' the Jews to go out and kill Gentiles en masse? Even when terrorists themselves quote verses in support of "Jihadic extremism", they would not be doing so without the numerous political and cultural motives that compel them to preach violence. Appealing emotionally to the perceived injustice and tyranny of Western countries is obviously a much larger factor in fostering terrorist rhetoric.

Islam is not the Quran, just as Christianity is not the Bible.
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#55235 - 05/30/11 09:16 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: The Zebu]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
Out of context? I wouldn't say that is the case.

There has been more then one source for this information, and when one starts to see a pattern it is important to take notice. Just like the bible the Koran is open to interpretation.

As for not touching it.....its usually in Arabic. I dont speak Arabic. Second why would I touch it, it holds no value to me at all. So I ignore it completely as a object. Since I cannot translate its writing, I have little choice but to read what others have transcribed from its contents for themselves.

Comparing Moses to Mohammed is a flawed analogy. They were contextually and philosophically different people. And for the record Muslims hating Jews is still current news in case you dont listen to news from the middle east. Ive been to Israel during my tours of the military. I was in Haifa when Rabin was assassinated by one of his own people. In Islams defense it isnt just a one sided event.

Would be terrorists know only what their local Imams tell them. Most dont have the internet, or TV when they grow up so they are immersed in a world of religious rhetoric. Just like kids in America who go to bible camp. Look for a film called "Jesus camp" and you will see what I mean. This all goes way beyond mere words in a book.

There is always an element of truth in rumors and lies.

That statement above is a tool I use when I go about my life. I never take everything at face value, and take the time to learn all I can before I pass judgement on something. My view of Muslims has been long in coming by what I have seen around the world with my own eyes, and not from books. Not all Muslims are evil. But...

Im not going to take the chance, or let my guard down around them for the fear that's the ruse they use which opens the doors for harm. To ignore the possibility is exactly how terrorists succeed in killing and causing chaos. Exploiting our vulnerability and unwillingness to see through the camouflage.

You keep your views...mine have kept me alive thus far.
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#55240 - 05/31/11 01:09 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
As for not touching it.....its usually in Arabic. I dont speak Arabic. Second why would I touch it, it holds no value to me at all.


You see your life as being potentially threatened by Islamic jihadists, but don't see a point in examining what is ostensibly a major pillar of their ideology and thus invaluable in getting to know your avowed enemy?

 Quote:
And for the record Muslims hating Jews is still current news in case you dont listen to news from the middle east.


I have several Israeli friends; been there, done that; from what I can tell most Israeli Muslims aren't anti-Jewish or trying to blow themselves up every five seconds. Of course, the total sum of middle-eastern Jewish/Muslim relations is still overwhelmingly hostile, but I think it's still somewhat dishonest to bunch everyone together.

Jewish extremists are just as terrifying as their Islamic counterparts, although they are a smaller presence. Moses is admittedly different from Mohammad, but both Jewish and Quranic texts can be said to endorse a campaign of Holy War against nonbelievers, and a reading of their respective scriptures with this confirmation bias in mind will obviously show it. Both parties have invoked these scriptures to justify their violence against the other. The main difference is that many disenfranchised Arab Muslims feel more threatened by Israel and the West than the other way around. It doesn't matter who has the nastier book; whoever's on the bottom is going to lash out more.

I also have too many Muslim friends to make blanket judgements based on a single label, because I've seen how frustrating it is for them to be treated like "sleeper terrorists" just because of their race and creed.

I'm basically saying that the Quran is only a partial catalyst in the overall situation, and that greeting Muslims with a priori fear and hostility only creates rifts and exacerbates the problem.

I'm not trying to be all hyper-egalitarian or anything; I accept that mankind's less noble prejudices are the natural result of a healthy sense of self-preservation. I suppose I just have a tendency to highlight all the nuances of an issue.


Edited by The Zebu (05/31/11 01:15 AM)
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#55243 - 05/31/11 10:10 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:

As for not touching it.....its usually in Arabic. I dont speak Arabic. Second why would I touch it, it holds no value to me at all. So I ignore it completely as a object. Since I cannot translate its writing, I have little choice but to read what others have transcribed from its contents for themselves.

Seriously? That's one of your excuses? Whatever happened to "know thy enemy?" If you aren't knowledgeable about something (not necessarily an expert, but at least well-versed), then how does that help your credibility in a debate? Or refuting the various points of individual Suras? Just as many atheists can pull quotes from Scripture to suit their needs and highlight the inherent hypocrisies of those which Christians like to tout, the same should be done with Islam and the Quran. Just because you don't trust the English interpretations, is not a good enough reason to eschew reading it at all.

 Quote:
Would be terrorists know only what their local Imams tell them. Most dont have the internet, or TV when they grow up so they are immersed in a world of religious rhetoric.

Quite a few would-be terrorists come from families which are well-off and have access to the internet and resources to donate to terrorist organizations. There are hundreds of these websites on the web today. What do you think the CIA and FBI are monitoring? How else do you think they stay on top of possible attacks? On top of being schooled in fundamental interpretations of Islam, these recruits are often motivated by political disaffection with the West (the US in particular), and are more than willing to match political belief with religious teachings. It's not the other way around (ie, inspired by religious indoctrination), as you are suggesting.
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#55250 - 05/31/11 10:41 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Nemesis]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
In general:

This is a conflict which won't be solved through debate. You can do your best and provide the most rational and reasonable arguments available against Sharia, if they respond with “it's the law of Allah” you're arguing with a rock. And that's the problem.

I'm no fan of multiculturalism and prefer cultural separatism. There's yours, here's ours; fuck with us and we will wipe you out. Of course this comes with accepting they do it their way there and don't need to submit to ours and that's also a part of the problem these days; we're too willing to believe everyone out there wants an iPod, Big Mac and diet Coke. Maybe they don't.

But down here is my territory and it is fucked up already as it is. The last thing I need, after chasing the priests out of influence, is another adorer telling me what or what not I can do. You don't like it here, piss off to where you came from.

Of course these ideas directly identify me as a racist pig; if I'd be human I'd embrace and cuddle that what wants to stab me in the belly.

And to answer a priori; yes there are moderate ones out there but the fact that they're so darn great at being silent says enough me thinks.

D.

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#55251 - 05/31/11 10:47 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Nemesis]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu

I also have too many Muslim friends to make blanket judgements based on a single label, because I've seen how frustrating it is for them to be treated like "sleeper terrorists" just because of their race and creed.


I think an excellent visual reference of this is the movie "Under Siege" with Denzel Washington. One might interpret the movie to be a cause to not group all the Muslims in together for the crimes and radicalism of a few. But dont miss the more important, but hidden point I was hinting towards. The sleeper agent who had befriended a CIA operative and used this association to further their goals. Not all Muslims are criminals. I think as a ethnic group they count for fewer petty crimes then most here in the US and abroad. But to ignore the possibility that one of those you trust might be a bad egg is wrong. Defending your friends is noble, and I too, would do such a thing if I felt the one slamming their people were dead wrong.

We could further infer that all races and creeds have their extremists, and Muslims shouldnt be singled out for ridicule and racial profiling. This is true, without a doubt. But in regards to this thread....

I couldnt personally stomach a Mosque being erected right over the ashes of thousands of dead Americans simply because it raises the image of their Prophet Mohammed standing at ground zero with a foot placed on the neck of the fallen dead.

I dont "hate" Muslims. But you cant make me trust them, unless I know without a doubt they are 'one of the nice ones".

 Originally Posted By: Nemesis

Seriously? That's one of your excuses? Whatever happened to "know thy enemy?" If you aren't knowledgeable about something (not necessarily an expert, but at least well-versed), then how does that help your credibility in a debate? Or refuting the various points of individual Suras? Just as many atheists can pull quotes from Scripture to suit their needs and highlight the inherent hypocrisies of those which Christians like to tout, the same should be done with Islam and the Quran. Just because you don't trust the English interpretations, is not a good enough reason to eschew reading it at all.


I chose not to read the Koran/Qur'an/etc by choice. I also choose not to read alot of Philosophy books just for a few meaningful sentences which could be found in more specific venues or books. I dont trust the Qur'an as much as I dont trust the bible. Having picked that one up multiple times simply because I had to was an overrated experience. I have since thrown all my copies away. This doesnt mean I have closed my mind to their messages. It just means that literally; I have no purpose for them as objects to be owned, or touched.

Eschewing the Qur'an in its entirety would be the same as doing the same to the Satanic Bible. As much of the world has done. Your point in that regard is valid. But I didnt clarify enough that this wasn't part of my statement. I am sure there are some of us who wont read the Qur'an either. I dont have to read it to know its teachings aren't for me. And I assure you I dont harass or pummel Muslims when I run into them, which is quite often.

 Originally Posted By: Nemesis

Quite a few would-be terrorists come from families which are well-off and have access to the internet and resources to donate to terrorist organizations. There are hundreds of these websites on the web today. What do you think the CIA and FBI are monitoring? How else do you think they stay on top of possible attacks? On top of being schooled in fundamental interpretations of Islam, these recruits are often motivated by political disaffection with the West (the US in particular), and are more than willing to match political belief with religious teachings. It's not the other way around (ie, inspired by religious indoctrination), as you are suggesting.


What troubles me more, at least on a American front is the growing trend for home grown terrorists. Born from American families, educated in the best schools and universities and going off to the middle east to train and learn how to kill their fellow Americans.

As bad as this might sound you dont see converted Christians from other countries plotting mass murders of their own kind.

Mosque at ground zero. No way. Commit the atrocities which were willingly suffered by the Japanese during WWII in this country is out of the question. Tolerance is learned over time, and cant be expected to happen overnight. But I think a little tolerance on the part of the Jihads would help the process along. But you have to admit its sort of ironic when Jihads hire Jewish lawyers to defend them. (although I know why)
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#55262 - 05/31/11 12:34 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
I couldnt personally stomach a Mosque being erected right over the ashes of thousands of dead Americans simply because it raises the image of their Prophet Mohammed standing at ground zero with a foot placed on the neck of the fallen dead.


What about all the innocent Muslims killed in the WTC?

Secondly, I think it's been made emphatically clear that it's not strictly a Mosque, nor is it on Ground Zero. I can guarantee that you're not going to have any extremist ideologues there there because they know that watchdog groups will be trolling the shit out of them.


Edited by The Zebu (05/31/11 12:38 PM)
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#55368 - 06/01/11 09:55 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: The Zebu]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
It is widely known that Muslims killed at the WTC were seen as martyrs for the cause and to me it was left at that. The Muslim world didnt seem to be too taken aback by it. On the other hand Patterson NJ was on the news shortly after the towers fell, with the whole Muslim community cheering and dancing in the streets.

Those are Muslims, residing in the US, earning a living here, sending some of that money overseas and this is their reaction to all those people dying?
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#55378 - 06/02/11 04:08 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
Those are Muslims, residing in the US, earning a living here, sending some of that money overseas and this is their reaction to all those people dying?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether you like it or not.
I also find your stance quite hypocrit. How many innocent people has the US killed? I remember pictures of a dead Bin-Laden and streets in the US covered with festivities. I remember the scandal of torturing prisoners in US prisons. I remember the hanging of Hussein and the reaction from the West on those issues.

Don't start with the vague notions of being better and more humane then the others, you aren't. The US always had a meddling attitude, it only was a matter of time before someone dared to hit back. For the middle-east it isn't a war on terrorism anymore, for them the matter is MUCH bigger then you think. In the present the west (and more specific: the US) has become an icon of unholy acts, blasphemy and destroying culture. To us it might seem like a war on terror, to them it now is an almost never-ending war against Western fundamentalism.


Edited by Dimitri (06/02/11 04:12 AM)
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#55413 - 06/02/11 03:42 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Quote:
It is widely known that Muslims killed at the WTC were seen as martyrs for the cause


They were not "martyrs", they were innocent bystanders who in all reality wanted nothing to do with Al-Qaida. Al-Qaida does not speak for all Muslims, ESPECIALLY after they kill unwilling Muslim bystanders and then claim it's okay because they died "for God".

 Quote:
and to me it was left at that


Maybe you should ask their American family members, since they're apparently so proud of their kin being martyred.

 Quote:
On the other hand Patterson NJ was on the news shortly after the towers fell, with the whole Muslim community cheering and dancing in the streets


Cite your news source, please; I have been not been able to find any verification of this.

 Quote:
The Muslim world didnt seem to be too taken aback by it.


What, the prolific apologies and disclaimers from countless Muslims worldwide don't count? Heck, I still hear Muslims trying to explain that they're not terrorists.

But yes, there were also many Muslims, mostly in less affluent countries in the middle east, that did celebrate, because they live in a region of the world where all they hear about the US is how much we hate Islam, team up with Israel to bully Palestine, and want to ruin the middle east. (And then just to prove them wrong by doing exactly that, which in turn helped gain a few educated supporters of jihad as opposed to the usual mindless sheep).

Both Western warmongers and Islamic extremists want their own people to think that the other side hates everything they stand for, so they can make cultural differences seem like a life-or-death struggle in order to convince people to die for their cause. They are self-fulfilling prophecies.


Edited by The Zebu (06/02/11 03:49 PM)
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#55416 - 06/02/11 04:01 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: The Zebu]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu

 Quote:
On the other hand Patterson NJ was on the news shortly after the towers fell, with the whole Muslim community cheering and dancing in the streets


Cite your news source, please; I have been not been able to find any verification of this.


That's because it's erroneous.

The dancing was in the middle east.

In New Jersey, 5 Israeli guys were arrested for their public display of happiness. The FBI let them go (deported them) after finding them free from suspicion.

Some folk say they were Mossad... (1:42 in the video?) Not sure myself... but interesting.
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#55513 - 06/06/11 12:06 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: The Zebu]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
This will be my final argument in this thread, meaning my last testimony for my case. Despite all the criticism I have received for my perceived ignorance, and racial bias I strongly believe after reviewing what I have to show you all my claims will be justified, and some eyes opened to the truth.

Islam: What the west needs to know

The above link is for Netflix customers to view a film. You can join for a free trial and cancel and still watch this movie free.

If you choose not to see my evidence, as I chose not to read the Qur'an so be it. This film was one of the reasons I chose not to read that book. Ignorance is frowned upon in Satanism is it not? If I have led you to knowledge and you deny it, the fault lies with you. If you still believe your "friends" are for peace..... after viewing my proof....then you are an idiot....and not to be trusted either.

This forum preaches backing up what you say. If banning is a result of my statements here I will consider it no loss. But I only do so with the benefit of all and of course myself in mind. I cant ignore the truth when its staring me in the face because people believe in the good of human nature. If you would be a Satanist, who questions...... observe what I have offered...and decide for yourself.

Lets hope our futures are not as bleak as this film predicts.....
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#55568 - 06/07/11 12:54 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
Google video version

In case you dont have NetFlix.

I realize this movie will strike some as anti Islamic. That is is a biased look at peaceful people, being peaceful. What I cant ignore are the imbedded video streams of Imams preaching this doctrine verbatim. Ignore it if you wish, but it is a strong argument against the threads original statement.
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#55578 - 06/07/11 09:52 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dimitri]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
Those are Muslims, residing in the US, earning a living here, sending some of that money overseas and this is their reaction to all those people dying?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether you like it or not.
I also find your stance quite hypocrit. How many innocent people has the US killed? I remember pictures of a dead Bin-Laden and streets in the US covered with festivities. I remember the scandal of torturing prisoners in US prisons. I remember the hanging of Hussein and the reaction from the West on those issues.


Remember that first line I highlighted in blue of yours.

What country hasn't done any of those things when they believed they were at war? Hell, for that matter Hussein's own country televised his hanging and many, many people around the entire globe celebrated. So fucking what! As for the prisoners of war, well...that's what they are. At least it wasn't a televised beheading of say….a reporter? But let's not go there, right?

By the way, before you lecture anyone else on writing English correctly again, the word highlighted in yellow is spelt "hypocritical". Fuck, I hate that word! I feel like I'm posting with the goddamned christians again!! That's one of their favorite words to tote about flinging at “non-Christians” like some kind of "high road" badge.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Don't start with the vague notions of being better and more humane then the others, you aren't. The US always had a meddling attitude, it only was a matter of time before someone dared to hit back. For the middle-east it isn't a war on terrorism anymore, for them the matter is MUCH bigger then you think. In the present the west (and more specific: the US) has become an icon of unholy acts, blasphemy and destroying culture. To us it might seem like a war on terror, to them it now is an almost never-ending war against Western fundamentalism.


No where in any of Ghostly's responses did he "start with the vague notions of being better and more humane then the others...". But I guess when you need a reason to slam at American's you'll find it in just about any post you read. He's talking about what he feels shouldn't occur in HIS country you ninny. Would you be so willing to accept something you believed to be wrong in your own country? You'd fight it tooth and nail if you had the chance, I'm sure.

As for the US meddling in other countries’ affairs, then don't bring it to the US. I'd be willing to bet even your country has asked for the US's assistance a time or two. Monetarily, military, and probably more. You're right, we need to get the fuck out of other countries, let them handle their own bullshit, and while we're at it, pull our money assistance as well. Afghanistan and Pakistan would just love losing those millions of dollars in assistance from the US, now wouldn't they?!

Last observation...usually, just usually, fighting fear, contempt and hatred with the same does not change a person's mind. Especially when that person is talking about their OWN country and what they will or will not accept THERE. At least Nemesis, Zebu and others made points that were worth noting and seriously considering, instead of just trying to find a way to take a jab at a "dirty" American. Oh wait…I do believe they are Americans too.…


Edited by Nyte (06/07/11 10:41 PM)
Edit Reason: **Got rid of some of my "betting".
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#55580 - 06/08/11 12:13 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Nyte]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
You are correct in that I wasn't pushing a Pro-American doctrine. But this is America where I reside, and NY is where I live, the same NY which lost two towers nearly 10 years ago with a broad mix of nationalities, and walks of life.

The point Dimitri missed while he was ranting was the people doing the merrymaking, are in the US. Employed in US companies. Living with Americans, and they are celebrating their "neighbors" demise.

For the record it was the Iraqi people who convicted and condemned their own former leader. The US didnt execute him, and it wasn't an act of terrorism. Atrocities will always occur on all sides, prisoners being subjected to embarrassment can be looked down upon, but weighted against the reason they were there you would be hard pressed to find anyone who didnt feel it was deserved after 9/11 in NYC. I dont condone their actions, but then again Im not them either.

I dont speak for the USA. I speak for myself.....and he also missed the mark on that, insinuating that I did. He is far removed from the culture which is here in the US. A pride we share despite the shortcomings in the growth our nation has had since its inception. But with that, a history of aggression followed that our leaders felt was in the best interest of the nation, not necessarily the rest of the world. I dont see it as fair to put me in the same camp as those who bombed Japan.....or whether it was justified or not. War is war. People will die. Denmark, last I checked hasn't been in full scale war with anyone in some time so I expect there to be some softness of the spine. Appeasement and neutrality might work for a small nation, but not for one with the most to lose.
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#55584 - 06/08/11 01:52 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I watched the movie you recommended on Netflix earlier today. It does raise some valid points about Islam being anything but peaceful. I particularly liked how they brought up the concept of abrogation as it pertains to the Koran. It is a very important thing to consider when looking at Islam.

However, one of the people interviewed certainly displayed a biased slant towards Christianity. And a few of the things he said about Islam could just as easily describe Christianity. Not that it discredits entirely what was said by him and the other interviewees but it does arouse a little suspicion.

Overall it wasn't a waste of time and I think anyone who sees Islam as "just another religion" should watch it.
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#55590 - 06/08/11 06:30 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
Absolutely, Fundamentalist Christians worry me just as much, but for different reasons. Just watch this movie to see what I mean, the brainwashing is just as complete and resonant within the community they present. It is also available on Netflix as well.

Jesus camp

No one would argue having a church of Christian variety near ground zero, but people do feel uncomfortable with children protesting such as seen in this documentary. But strapping explosives to your kids is much more extreme.
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#55616 - 06/09/11 01:03 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Absolutely, Fundamentalist Christians worry me just as much, but for different reasons. Just watch this movie to see what I mean, the brainwashing is just as complete and resonant within the community they present.

Don't worry, they're all focused on things other than your (or my) destruction. Kowtowed and used to taking orders isn't a bad way to have them ;\)
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#55773 - 06/13/11 12:02 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Nyte]
Dedalus Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/13/10
Posts: 51
Loc: Ireland



 Quote:
By the way, before you lecture anyone else on writing English correctly again, the word highlighted in yellow is spelt "hypocritical".


Perhaps the overseas spelling of the word "spelled" is different to what I'm used to. I hope so. That's neither here nor there. The above response to Dimitri's statement seemed to be comprised more of an automatic and defensive reversion to patriotism than anything else. It does not, in my opinion, constitute a valid rebuttal. A lot of "if you were in their shoes" kind of stuff, and examples of Iraqi wrong-doing. We're all aware of the atrocities commited in Iraq by Hussein, etc. That in no way whatsoever makes it ok for the USA to act in a similar fashion. I believe what Dimitri was doing was drawing a parallel between the two nations to show how they have behaved similarly during times of war, an entirely valid comparison that you seem to have attempted to shrug off by insisting that someone else started it.

I'm not concerned with most of the subject matter, to be honest, so I'll leave most of it alone. The only real issue I took with all of this is, and the bulk of the reason I bothered to construct a response, is your stance on human rights. To use your technique, if I may, I would like to suggest that your view on the poor treatment of political prisoners would be different if they were American. In fact, I believe American soldiers/captives have been tortured in the past. But hey, that's ok, right?

 Quote:
As for the prisoners of war, well...that's what they are.


Wow. Even if they were actually guilty of anything (most were not), your attempt to justify your nations torture of prisoners astounds me.


I don't hate America. It has positive and negative qualities like anywhere else. Dimitri may have been quick to denounce the USA. But was he wrong? All those things he remembers, I remember too. I expect, if anything, another anger-fueled response with more raised hackles than reasoning. I do hope I'm wrong.
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#55799 - 06/13/11 07:46 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dedalus]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
Many different countries around the world have a long standing history of torturing prisoners of war. The Japanese were particularly cruel to American GI's in the pacific simply because they viewed anyone not of Japanese decent to be beneath them. Much like the earlier colonial slave owners of pre-twentieth century America. Lets not leave out the Viet Cong, and North Vietnamese and the brutality suffered there. The Muslim jailors were fond of beheading publicly their captives for the sake of good press.

Make no mistake, the United States is not getting off easy. But despite not having signed the Geneva convention, we still abide by its rules. Exceptions are you have seen are punished severely. You cannot compare circus games in Gitmo with the savagery many others in our countries history have witnessed, not even touching upon the Holocaust. People forget many of those killed were POLITICAL prisoners.....and some were German as well.

The treatment of POW's bears no reasoning as to the purpose of the thread which was a Mosque on the site of America's worst tragedy.
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#55843 - 06/14/11 01:57 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Ghostly1]
Dedalus Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/13/10
Posts: 51
Loc: Ireland
 Quote:
The treatment of POW's bears no reasoning as to the purpose of the thread which was a Mosque on the site of America's worst tragedy.


Agreed. I was outlining the problem(s) I had with Nyte's view on that subject, and got comletely off topic, my apologies. In short, while I feel that I understand the sentiment to be one of building bridges between America and non-violent Muslims, the notion of building a mosque on or near Ground Zero strikes me as an insensitive, foolish idea, one bound to be viewed by many as a great insult, and one which can only lead to trouble, in my opinion.
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#55861 - 06/14/11 10:49 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dedalus]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Dedalus
Perhaps the overseas spelling of the word "spelled" is different to what I'm used to. I hope so. That's neither here nor there.


So why bring it up? Next time, look up the word first, before someone has to correct you too. I did not misspell the word spelled. I wrote spelt for a reason. You figure it out. Hint: Online dictionary.

 Originally Posted By: Dedalus
The above response to Dimitri's statement seemed to be comprised more of an automatic and defensive reversion to patriotism than anything else.It does not, in my opinion, constitute a valid rebuttal. A lot of "if you were in their shoes" kind of stuff, and examples of Iraqi wrong-doing. We're all aware of the atrocities commited in Iraq by Hussein, etc. That in no way whatsoever makes it ok for the USA to act in a similar fashion. I believe what Dimitri was doing was drawing a parallel between the two nations to show how they have behaved similarly during times of war, an entirely valid comparison that you seem to have attempted to shrug off by insisting that someone else started it.


I shrugged off nothing. I will not however explain why I wrote what I did, just for you. Those that have read past posts know exactly what I WAS referring too. I find it funny you honestly saw that as a comparison. You obviously enjoy the posturing.

 Originally Posted By: Dedalus
I'm not concerned with most of the subject matter, to be honest, so I'll leave most of it alone. The only real issue I took with all of this is, and the bulk of the reason I bothered to construct a response, is your stance on human rights. To use your technique, if I may, I would like to suggest that your view on the poor treatment of political prisoners would be different if they were American. In fact, I believe American soldiers/captives have been tortured in the past. But hey, that's ok, right?

 Quote:
As for the prisoners of war, well...that's what they are.


Wow. Even if they were actually guilty of anything (most were not), your attempt to justify your nations torture of prisoners astounds me.


I don't hate America. It has positive and negative qualities like anywhere else. Dimitri may have been quick to denounce the USA. But was he wrong? All those things he remembers, I remember too. I expect, if anything, another anger-fueled response with more raised hackles than reasoning. I do hope I'm wrong.



You shouldn't have constructed a response perhaps? Because from what's obvious, you certainly didn't pay attention to what you tried to dig apart in my response. I never said anything was "good" or "bad". I simply pointed out...Shit happens that's ugly when a country believes themselves to be at war. Again, SO FUCKING WHAT! That's not what this thread is about, but then again, I see Ghostly did at least get you back on track a bit.

You obviously know nothing of me, or my stance on human rights. You missed a lot in my response (NOT to mention this entire thread!!) and I will not waste any more time rehashing it just for you.

And just so you are aware, you haven’t seen angry in the least bit. At least not from me. It's called irritation and disgust.
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#55864 - 06/15/11 02:56 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dedalus]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Some "apolitical" conjecture.

I will always attempt to stultify those who attempt to bastardize views and writings.

I only view man's ecology and ethology and view him as an endangered species due to the threat he poses unto himself.

I observe professed "atheists" in the west who like to think they are atheists because do not believe in God simply due to dismissing what is God as a strange belief in a universal mind that couldn't possibly be anything to do with them or their friends, they think this makes them an Atheist free of such things, yet they share the same base paradigm centred on slave morality as they have never questioned that the society they have formed their ego within is based on the values of religion that they will never be able to devalue as they have never affirmed that the slave morality values are negative and weak, except to obey slave morality obliviously while it remains deep seated in their minds, hence they will never be able to devalue and make a revaluation about their own master morality. "Why" finds no answer. I'd call them invincibly ignorant slave moralists, passive nihilists, not atheists.

Different countries have different paradigms yet regardless of human superficialities like race, creed, religion, any abstract causal form is only that, an abstraction. What we all are is the same species, humans, expressing the will to power. For a certain Satanist, neo-Nazism, is merely the most terrible and formidable of heresies against slave morality about right now for which to express the will to power.

The sociological causes and effects are base simple and "might is right" any abstract causal form is simply a means to express the will to power and the affirmation of a lacking is what drives the Satanist to strive for the ever increasing ideal maxim, of power. Anyone professing peace while imposing the passive aggressive "equality and peace pathos" is asking to be dominated by the natural impulse nature instils within us, the essence of life itself— the will to power.

Wolves are always alert for signs that prey animals are around and approach cautiously as not to frighten the prey before being near enough. Beast of burden like the oxen and the moose, try to defend themselves from wolves by bunching into a circle with their hindquarters together. It is the defensive stance of prey that causes the wolf to remain inactive, the wolf will not feel the impulse to attack the bewildered stance of prey, so the wolves will culminate the presence of violence within and all around— as soon as the prey bolts, the wolf is irreversibly catalysed to shred the groins from the fleeting prey, bathing in the adrenal saturated blood.

Wolves bearing teeth fall in line, a naturally ordered hierarchy, a revolving and constantly revised order, the wolves are working toward the same goals according to Nature's actualisation of aristocracy. Pity is a man made disease which causes all sorts of complications, ambiguity, cognitive dissonance— pity is an infection. Wolves bearing teeth have respect for one another, for other packs territories and it is only strength and respect that makes the wolf an untamed predator and the oxen a beast of burden for man.

Man is a social animal too, has tribal and pack instincts for which we ought to work with, respecting the territories, hierarchies of different cultures. Invaders who impose passive aggressively cannot hide behind moral ambiguity, it would be like an oxen trying to make a pass of active submission to gain respect in a wolf pack.

Hippies are the same, they laze about smoking dope, bloating their inane subjecture to one another, solidifying their wilted infrastructure about reality, regarding their world peace view as actual reality. Which really they can't fight because they are nervous and effeminate dregs of nature and must console themselves by glorifying their failures into absurd values that exemplify pity, much like the religionist does. They will impose the mediocre, and inferior with a hubris assumption that they have advanced empathy, laying claim to advanced conceptions of humanness. In slave morality, traits such as kindness, compassion, and peace are pushed onto all and every as if the obviousness of it all is somehow elusive. These values were developed as revolt to aristocracy that is viewed as cruel and dangerous to the weak who simply have no will or instinctual drive to take part. Monotheistic values are synonymous with slave morality and seriously undermines the strong by imposing what is unproductive for the strong whilst providing a utilitarian slave moralist with a promising plentitude of mediocrity, their wretchedly content solace and meaning in life.

Hippies attempt to leech off the strong in much the same way, and when caught out they declare "peace" and back-pedal so they may avoid conflict and try again to leech off somebody else, till their luck runs dry again.

I am not some kind of negative racist, only positively racialist insofar as respecting the cerebral and somatic aestheticism of every race and culture on the earth, for individually and disproportionately beautiful qualities.

A certain peoples have a clever idea to invade other cultures peacefully, replacing society and laws in a subtle and subvert way, a chain of repetitiously escalating events, over a period of causal time. A viral memes that perpetuate obsessional cacoethes.

I am a man angry with his people, his nation, and with society as a whole and only wish to cause change and to motivate men, women and young people to value one another, to value life and affirm life. Animals treat their own species with more respect and affection than us humans do, how embarrassing for man who thinks himself so "improved" yet man differentiates his own kind as a different species due to superficialities like skin colour, creed, beliefs.

It is not difficult to respect cultural differences and make communication with ones own kind. In fact people talk too much and do not show enough respect through acts.
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#55868 - 06/15/11 11:14 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Nyte]
Dedalus Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/13/10
Posts: 51
Loc: Ireland
I did look up the correct spelling, with both a search and by checking the merrieam webster online dictionary. You appear to have told Dimitri that the word highlighted in yellow is "relict wheat species" hypocritical. As I indicated, minor spelling errors are less important than the meaning of the words being relict wheat species, which is why I did not point this out originally.


 Quote:
I shrugged off nothing. I will not however explain why I wrote what I did, just for you.


This speaks volumes. Don't bother.

 Quote:
You shouldn't have constructed a response perhaps? Because from what's obvious, you certainly didn't pay attention to what you tried to dig apart in my response. I never said anything was "good" or "bad". I simply pointed out...Shit happens that's ugly when a country believes themselves to be at war. Again, SO FUCKING WHAT!


While it was perhaps not worth my time, it's always fun seeing somebody RESORT TO CAPS LOCK! And my time is mine to use as I see fit. Your point isn't any "bigger" because the letters are. Ugly things do indeed occur when a country "believes" itself to be at war. For someone professing a hatred of the "high-road" mentality, you seem to both very proud and very defensive of your nation.

 Quote:
As for the US meddling in other countries’ affairs, then don't bring it to the US. I'd be willing to bet even your country has asked for the US's assistance a time or two. Monetarily, military, and probably more. You're right, we need to get the fuck out of other countries, let them handle their own bullshit, and while we're at it, pull our money assistance as well. Afghanistan and Pakistan would just love losing those millions of dollars in assistance from the US, now wouldn't they?!


This has "vague notions of being better and more humane than others" all over it. You mention Ghostly getting me back on track. I believe what you are refering to is me doing Ghostly the common courtesy of bringing the thread back to the original topic, as I happen to agree with the majority of what he has said. Your mention of this strikes me as the equivalent of yelling "look over there" and running away. I acknowledged that I was going off topic, but did so regardless, briefly, to point out how distasteful and foolish I found your remark on the treatment of prisoners, my comment on this subject being no less valid for not directly relating to the subject of the mosque, as you are the one who brought it up.

Towards the end of your post you appear to have confused my focusing on the particular remark you made with "missing a lot" in your response, which was brief and readable. Nothing was missed.

You further state that I don't know anything about you. Let me assure you that from what little I have seen, I have no desire to know anything more.



(Hegesias, your post reads "RE: Dedalus" at the top, indicating that it is directed towards me. This is the only clear indication of any such direction, as far as I can see. If this was intentional, all I have gathered from this list of generalizations about atheists, men, wolves and, of all things, hippies, is that you consider me to be a tree-hugger for advocating the non-violent treatment of prisoners of war, though this may be a misinterpretation, as nothing is directly addressed to me.

You discuss mans domination of other men due to our "natural impulse". This sounds to me like an "excuse", as there exists such a thing as "impulse control". I certainly see your point, and agree with it to an extent. I do however feel that to claim to have acted on a base instinct is to admit to a lack of discipline. This can be a negative thing in many situations, as far as I'm concerned.

Furthermore, and I really must stress again, if your post was indeed directed towards me, I view my response not as "apolitical conjecture", but as containing less enthusiasm in general for the original subject, which I admittedly deviated from.)
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#55883 - 06/15/11 10:55 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dedalus]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Dedalus
I did look up the correct spelling, with both a search and by checking the merrieam webster online dictionary. You appear to have told Dimitri that the word highlighted in yellow is "relict wheat species" hypocritical. As I indicated, minor spelling errors are less important than the meaning of the words being relict wheat species, which is why I did not point this out originally.


Verb dipshit....look up the verb usage of SPELT. You have now made it perfectly clear you can't look past the first part of anything or you didn't pay attention in learning English. In trying to make me look like a fool, you've made a complete ass out of yourself. Congratulations.

All the rest of your response is blather since you obviously didn't bother to read the thread as a whole. By the way, thank you for doing Ghostly the common courtesy of getting the thread back on topic and giving me the best laugh at pure stupidity. Cheers.
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#55887 - 06/16/11 03:51 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dedalus]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I would think it is in all obviousness that we have highlighted the will to power, and likewise, the power of the will not being one in the same thing as a succumbing to every sadistic whim and fancy as compulsion is most certainly not the same drive as impulse and impulse control. If you took the time to read my previous post and direct your attention toward what was being presented for more than one solitary moment, you'd have possibly seen it unfit to point out all obviousness. The impulse toward violence directed by the will, there is no rushing in blindly at every whim and fancy.

The expression of the will is like an art form, and like art, a creative process directed towards something inexplicably felt. I'd consider torturing helpless people a much too vulgar display of power.
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#55894 - 06/16/11 04:55 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Hegesias]
Dialectical Offline
Banned Troll
stranger


Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 17
I hate to be the one to point it out, but this topic has been troll fodder since it's inception. Looks like another one of them Fingers-0-Gawd stirred up the trailer park, them bees are lookin' stingy.
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#55896 - 06/16/11 05:26 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dialectical]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I simply find it distasteful for certain people to assume this and that about Muslims when they are simply people and nothing is special about them as compared to any other person about our civilisation except superficial differences we cannot see past because modern man tends to formalise the abstract effects of the cause of relations that we as living organisms have with respect to each other. This is perfectly natural though and is natures way of keeping us protected from gene pollution as we are tribal and do not work well without direction, multiculturalism being unresolved, ambiguous cognizance due to rationality stultifying religion and vice versa with religionists dismissing the ideas of rationalists, misosophy vs. philosophy if you will. As far as memetic infection goes, all people are susceptible to monotheism under any guise, Judeo-Christian or otherwise, if one is in and about the environment which perpetuates the memetic cacoethes one will either feel compelled to think otherwise or simply accept the ideas about reality as actual reality.

It is a fact that people become victims of their own beliefs, so set in their ways, that they would rather avoid little suffering now and face immense suffering later.

Not that I'd meet anyone with anything less than profound suspicion who is a professed egalitarian or otherwise imposer of slave morality, simply due to all rationality pointing towards epistemological distrust toward the ambiguous, a lucid intelligence related to, but not limited to, misanthropological study.

If I must take sides I'll vote for the self preservation society but seeing as the will to power is stronger than the will to survive I'll not belong there for long.
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#55897 - 06/16/11 05:39 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Hegesias]
Dialectical Offline
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stranger


Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 17
Who really gives a shit what moslems do? If nothing is true and everything is permitted, then 9/11 was perfectly acceptable behavior. The act is proof that they have the strength to accomplish their will, and nature demands that the most powerful express their control and destroy whatever they wish.

This thread should have cut the bullshit and went with the title "Are You A Racist? Y/N" because that's what it boils down to. Most people who responded only showed the world how ignorant they are of their own shortcomings, how mired they are in the society they profess to reject by calling themselves satanists, and how incapable they are of reflection.

I'm sick and tired of has-beens quoting Nietzsche in order to promote their own Chauvenistic world-view without having a drop of insight in their "free" minds and completely refusing to live philosophy as searing hot as that man suggested.

I hope the mosque is a slap in the face to the "victims" of this tragedy, if you feel a slap in the face then it's because you deserve it.

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#55899 - 06/16/11 06:02 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Hegesias]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
Bit of a late response..
 Quote:
Hell, for that matter Hussein's own country televised his hanging and many, many people around the entire globe celebrated.
Were they? Or was it simply the different fractions involved with the war? I don't seem to remember any festivities around here in Eurasia... Apart from the authorities which had to react on that matter..

 Quote:
At least it wasn't a televised beheading of say….a reporter? But let's not go there, right?
As a matter of fact, do so.

 Quote:
By the way, before you lecture anyone else on writing English correctly again, the word highlighted in yellow is spelt "hypocritical". Fuck, I hate that word! I feel like I'm posting with the goddamned christians again!! That's one of their favorite words to tote about flinging at “non-Christians” like some kind of "high road" badge.
Were you trying to insult? There's no need to mention your personal likings towards that word, it only shows I touched a rather sensitive snare, a little dilemma I called upon you prefer not to see.

 Quote:
No where in any of Ghostly's responses did he "start with the vague notions of being better and more humane then the others...". But I guess when you need a reason to slam at American's you'll find it in just about any post you read.
The notions I'm getting at is the tone of his post.

 Quote:
I'd be willing to bet even your country has asked for the US's assistance a time or two. Monetarily, military, and probably more.
Not that I remember, the last time there was a significant assistance was during WW2. Exactly the grandeur I pointed at ;\)

I know I touched a very sensitive snare, your overblown reaction simply strenghtens my point. It's not that I hate the US, there are a few nice lads around, it's only some of the attitudes which bother me and seemingly no one dares to make. Guess I'm a bit eccentric ey .

The point I was originally making (such as daedalus pointed out) was to draw a parallel. If you are going to be patriotic about your country, be sure to include the less positive jumps/negative parts in history. Yell everywhere how powerfull your country is, what great deeds it has performed for the world, include the well-sounding words of freedom,... but always remember the dark side of the coin. And in case you'll miss it: I'll point it out.


Edited by Dimitri (06/16/11 06:13 AM)
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#55900 - 06/16/11 06:03 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dialectical]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Your attempt to boycott this thread and present a derogatory derailment is characteristic of somebody who does not know the difference between subjugation of the will and what is master morality.

I am NOT a neo-Nazi nor am I one to parrot Nietzsche like a racist would, the man saw the crux of the world and still gets misrepresented by a majority, especially by racists. Each to their own view I suppose but it's rather self debasing to go around parroting lines that look cool when you have no idea what it's all about. I am not a racist but a "racialist" in one respect, which is only a positive affirmation of the diverse aestheticism of women, nothing more nothing less but an appreciation. Arab women are the most feminine and composed ladies, all my problems are with abusive males and the religions that perpetuate the abuse through justification.

Monotheism is the scourge of the earth, Arab people are the most beautifully aesthetic beings, in fact I personally only like females with black eyes and black hair. Hitler's ideal of blue eyes and blonde hair is simply not to my tastes. Just how I'm inclined sorry to disappoint you.

I can not speak for all Satanists but the imposed slave morality in and around monotheism makes me feel lethal. The subjugation of the will is not anything to do with Satanism.

The overman does not subjugate the will of others, he is too busy affirming a "yes" to others who would work toward common goals with him. The overman is not a race or a creed, he is a state of mind which seeks to overcome himself.

In attempting to insinuate that anyone who applies the concepts outlined by Nietzsche as a racist parroting what are his musically natured aphorisms as fundamental dictations, you have merely projected your misrepresentational views in the same way Hitler did unto Nietzsche.


As I outlined earlier, a terrorist attack is about as rare as a plane crash. Underground gangs are not interested in monotheism except to use it as a network and gangs are quite necessary to defend our country believe or not, who has the man power, the weapons and the money? Genuine monotheists are entitled to their slave morality, nobody is interested in interfering with them or their lives, unless they impose on the productivity of our personal lives.
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#55902 - 06/16/11 06:28 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Hegesias]
Dialectical Offline
Banned Troll
stranger


Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 17
Hegesias, if I were moderating this forum the thread would have been locked and/or trashed about 5 posts in.

My comments are general statements about numerous different posts, none of which you were involved with. You strike me as the one person on this forum who has taken the time to read Nietzsche, and I appreciate a lover of books.

I would like to point out that your definition of "master morality" sounds more like the kind of liberalism that goes hand in hand with the Crowley 'do as thou wilst, whole of thee law' ethos. Nietzsche believed that slave morality positively benefited the condition of humanity, and to ignore this is doing him a disservice.

I'm really not going to comment on what kind of woman you find attractive.

Let me tell you what I think is racist. I think that when a person says that it's okay to take pictures of naked Iraqis because exploiting others is satanic, and then talks about how disrespectful a building is to the "people of New York" (whoever the fuck that is) because of the people who want it and the building's purpose, the person is a hypocrite and a racist.

One more thing, if I were moderating this chat a whole lot of these satanists would be purged for their overt fascist, racist, and right-wing sympathies. I make no apologies for hating social scum hiding their prejudices under the umbrella of freedom of speech.


Edited by Dialectical (06/16/11 06:30 AM)

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#55905 - 06/16/11 07:25 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dialectical]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
OK, lets ruin the thread with some positivity.

I am not siding with Islam but I understand the covering of females with my own interpretation, only insofar as to display the female form gratuitously is to disrespect the ultimate sacredness of the female body. I feel when a man lays eyes on his women it ought to be overwhelming and profound, savoured for the most intimate experience in life. It is only when females feel insecure that they try and make themselves "improved" with superficiality as do men I presume, this is unnecessary as there is nothing more beautiful on the earth than the expression of love on a woman's face. Just my personal opinion.


But you can get the same appreciation from those intelligent librarian type females that don't wear any make up or try to be fantastic, a plain lady knows love. Now I'm going to be derailed as a classical sexist or something. Don't get me wrong I'm quite the libertine in the bedroom (or woods) There is a difference between people expressing themselves as a form of extreme individualism through the medium of art than women "dressing" promiscuously because they feel they are not the epitome of beauty to man by the expression they wear on their face.

I dislike propagandists because I visualise a troll hiding behind a computer that would have little to say upon meeting me in real life, I make a good set-up to stultify and draw out the woodwork, those who are that way.

Ignorance disgusts me so much that a malicious dialectical approach is most satisfying. The hubris of racist mundanes is so inwardly nauseating, so invincibly ignorant, that the air in the room turns thick with disgust, one feels a mixture of disappointment and revulsion.

What gets me is that I can look at any race of woman and feel positive emotions, appreciation and nothing but respect. When a man is saying misogynistic and racist things together I feel like hurting him, it's just one of those things. There is no argument to support some kind of fortitude that is required to be strong enough to be cruel to women as some kind of noble ideological cause. Saying that my views are far more primitive and blunt than Nazism, I justify excessive violence to anyone who defines themselves suitable by their very deeds indicative of a diseased character. It's all about manners, my sense of humour is as black as it comes and in no way does anyone need to walk on eggshells around me, a diseased character is a diseased character.

The idea is to present an rhetorical text with traps in subtext, emotive phrases, only the short attention span will jump to conclusions for me to further dismantle what I have set out to devalue, to level the field for a revaluation— Active nihilism.

I'm somewhat of a misanthropological scholar, it is humankind's inability to affirm what is positive about life that is sorrowful and disappointing, the lack of enthusiasm and freedom of expression I observe.

Taking distasteful pictures of Arab ladies is simply ignoble and projecting that the one who considers such as fantastic as sexually immature. Amerika Porn is distasteful and unsatisfactory for me, always was, half assed and mechanical. I would never equate perfectly captured female beauty in photography with westernised porn. The Americans in those porn videos always have an awkward gait like they have no grasp of intimacy, dispassionate and immature. Even the media portrayal of bdsm is some plastic representation of materialistic narcissism.

It is not until they attempt to express themselves that they become aware of their lack of imagination through seeing their abysmal efforts of self-expression resulting in disinterest from their partners, they become aware of how unaccustomed they are to thinking anything through.

I'm just one of those cold hard nature types who's always believed in feral sexuality. I dislike abstract materialism that is derogatory unto what would otherwise be primal.

Concerning feminism, one of the things I appreciate the most about the Nordic culture, and specifically Euro-pagan matriarchal cultures and societies, is the great respect for women. Euro-pagan matriarchal cultures and societies had great respect for women. I would would not tolerate misogyny.
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#55907 - 06/16/11 09:12 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dimitri]
Nyte Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
Dimitri....bear in mind, that as you point out faults in the US and of others, your own personal faults show. Americans have a right to accept or deny such things as that mosque in the USA and no amount of your snide comments about any history can change that.

It's fun to have it affirmed that your own nation and those immediately around you have enjoyed the helpfulness of the US and when convenient, it's populous feels no hesitation in taking a dig at America or it's people. More than once you have affirmed what so many Americans have said for years about the US helping other countries. You might want to look a little closer at what assistance (money, military, trade, etc.) has been had since WW2, not only by your own country but by those immediately around you. Those too affect your own country. If you think your country stands completely alone, then you are a complete idiot.

Pointing out that your own country has probably asked for assistance from the US is grandeur? Really? Then your belly aching is what exactly? That's right....You drew a "parallel" and Dadelous was sure it was a "comparison". You two are comical, in an odd kind of way.
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#55908 - 06/16/11 09:24 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dialectical]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Dialectical
Let me tell you what I think is racist. I think that when a person says that it's okay to take pictures of naked Iraqis because exploiting others is satanic, and then talks about how disrespectful a building is to the "people of New York" (whoever the fuck that is) because of the people who want it and the building's purpose, the person is a hypocrite and a racist.

One more thing, if I were moderating this chat a whole lot of these satanists would be purged for their overt fascist, racist, and right-wing sympathies. I make no apologies for hating social scum hiding their prejudices under the umbrella of freedom of speech.


About the time you take away someone else's practice of "free speech", your own might surely be taken away as well. I would rather have someone open their mouth and spew their hate (of any kind) so I know whom they really are, than to keep quiet and wonder what they really are capable of. To quiet and sensor some one puts them at a greater advantage.
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#55910 - 06/16/11 11:05 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dialectical]
Ghostly1 Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
 Originally Posted By: Dialectical
Let me tell you what I think is racist. I think that when a person says that it's okay to take pictures of naked Iraqis because exploiting others is satanic, and then talks about how disrespectful a building is to the "people of New York" (whoever the fuck that is) because of the people who want it and the building's purpose, the person is a hypocrite and a racist.

One more thing, if I were moderating this chat a whole lot of these satanists would be purged for their overt fascist, racist, and right-wing sympathies. I make no apologies for hating social scum hiding their prejudices under the umbrella of freedom of speech.


Lets dissect this shall we.

Once again the thread bears no semblance to the credibility of porn of any kind, women in particular (at least by me) or morality in regards to sexual fetish. What it should be continuing to discuss is the purpose, and regard for a religious building, in this case a mosque, on or near the site of the world trade center. The "gut check" in question, is do we as a nation, or more locally as with me...allow the perpetrators who admitted to planning an executing this heinous act to build a mosque where the previous buildings had collapsed.

"the people of new york" (whoever the fuck that is)" would be people like Me, Morgan(not speaking for her but she lives closer then I do) for starters. Your ignorance is quite apparent, and pretentious in that you expected this erroneous detail to bear any kind of weight for an educated audience.

I dont want a mosque in the epicenter of 9/11 specifically for the purposes of robbing Muslims of their decided victory. Christians, and Muslims were known to build their own religious buildings over the ashes of the ones they conquered. It is a demonstration of superiority. A conqueror humiliates his subdued enemy. This is preached in the Qur'an. (I looked it up just to appease Nemesis)

All these details about why the spread of Islam is a problem, which goes beyond the scope of this thread was in the video I graciously provided for viewing to the members of this forum.

Islam: what the west needs to know

For those of you who missed it the last time. You're welcome.

 Quote:
One more thing, if I were moderating this chat a whole lot of these satanists would be purged for their overt fascist, racist, and right-wing sympathies. I make no apologies for hating social scum hiding their prejudices under the umbrella of freedom of speech.


Im glad ignorant, pretentious people like yourself moderate nothing, as we would all suffer for it.
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#55920 - 06/16/11 01:24 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dialectical]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
Who really gives a shit what moslems do? If nothing is true and everything is permitted, then 9/11 was perfectly acceptable behavior.


Who here has made the claim that nothing is true and everything is permitted?

 Quote:
...nature demands that the most powerful express their control and destroy whatever they wish.


Oh does it? Then we have the right to destroy Islam if we wish.

 Quote:
This thread should have cut the bullshit and went with the title "Are You A Racist? Y/N" because that's what it boils down to.


Wrong. Islam is a religion not a race. Muslim is a religious identity not a racial identity. Calling someone a racist may trump all in other places, but not here.

 Quote:
I'm sick and tired of has-beens quoting Nietzsche in order to promote their own Chauvenistic world-view without having a drop of insight in their "free" minds and completely refusing to live philosophy as searing hot as that man suggested


You are tilting at windmills.


 Quote:
Let me tell you what I think is racist. I think that when a person says that it's okay to take pictures of naked Iraqis because exploiting others is satanic, and then talks about how disrespectful a building is to the "people of New York" (whoever the fuck that is) because of the people who want it and the building's purpose, the person is a hypocrite and a racist.


Just because you think it, doesn't mean it is correct. In fact, judging from your posts, if you think it then it is most likely wrong.

 Quote:
One more thing, if I were moderating this chat a whole lot of these satanists would be purged for their overt fascist, racist, and right-wing sympathies. I make no apologies for hating social scum hiding their prejudices under the umbrella of freedom of speech.


Restricting speech and attempting to silence anyone who doesn't agree with you is a very Fascist thing to do. So who is the hypocrite now?
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#55922 - 06/16/11 01:30 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dialectical]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Dialectical
One more thing, if I were moderating this chat a whole lot of these satanists would be purged for their overt fascist, racist, and right-wing sympathies. I make no apologies for hating social scum hiding their prejudices under the umbrella of freedom of speech.


Ola my friend, as a fascist I should feel offended but when reading some of your opinions, I can't but see a kindred soul. That right or left-wing prefix, we both know they're merely used in jest.

Above all, we both just love repressive systems don't we?

D.

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#55932 - 06/16/11 05:32 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Nyte]
Dedalus Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/13/10
Posts: 51
Loc: Ireland

 Quote:
Verb dipshit....look up the verb usage of SPELT. You have now made it perfectly clear you can't look past the first part of anything or you didn't pay attention in learning English. In trying to make me look like a fool, you've made a complete ass out of yourself. Congratulations.


I predicted this weak, angry response in my first post. Such an unfortunate lack of discipline. Furthermore, you are, as before, hung up on petty semantics, particularly with the inclusion of the following

 Quote:
You drew a "parallel" and Dadelous [sic] was sure it was a "comparison"


(not aided by the fact that Dimitri and I actually both used the term parralel.)

This squabbling drivel out the way, your response can be summed up as

 Quote:
All the rest of your response is blather


I see. Coupled with the earlier "I will not waste any more time rehashing it just for you", it seems that you are not bothered to formulate a reply. In that case, perhaps the sensible thing to do would to have not responded at all, Nyte, in order to avoided coming across as a petty, quick-tempered heckler.
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#55955 - 06/17/11 07:09 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Nyte]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
It's fun to have it affirmed that your own nation and those immediately around you have enjoyed the helpfulness of the US and when convenient, it's populous feels no hesitation in taking a dig at America or it's people. More than once you have affirmed what so many Americans have said for years about the US helping other countries. You might want to look a little closer at what assistance (money, military, trade, etc.) has been had since WW2, not only by your own country but by those immediately around you. Those too affect your own country. If you think your country stands completely alone, then you are a complete idiot.

There is that grandeur again...
WW2 is about 60-70 years ago, quite a long time. And if I remember correctly, you guys only got involved since some of your own men were attacked by the germans. It was only then the descision came to get involved.
As far as the aid goes. After this period the aid has been comming from both sides. But that part seems to be forgotten for some weird reason... Don't get yourself pumped up like that, it is exactly the thing I'm pointing at.

(And don't worry, I've already been banned from other places for having "insulted" the Netherlands after a discussion like this one).
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#55966 - 06/17/11 12:17 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dimitri]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Conjecture.

Talking about somebody in a derogatory way is backstabbing and cowardly, and since I have only known western Muslims who are not really any different to talk to than anyone else at the gym I have only the terrorists in context when mentioning extreme Islam on this forum.

I think it is very important to differentiate western Muslims from extremists/terrorists just as in the same way one ought to differentiate extreme Zionism/Judaism from urban-folk Jews who are not involved in parliamentary malfeasance, at all, in any way. The people in the streets are for the vast and wide majority, are NOT extremists we see in media portrayal.

I can be the most controlled and dispassionate, inhuman expression, I can shut somebody down like taking out rubbish, yet this is not a strength, it is a strength to trust and make an attempt at communication, it's always a disappointment for me to hospitalise somebody, the court case, the cells, the failed attempt to diffuse the situation is a let down. Some people just have negative agenda's and you can't reason with them. Sociopaths in my experience.

Don't get me wrong I'm an advocate of affirmative philosophy and have no interest in religion and slave morality applications in my own life, but I can see that others do and hence I have no desire to subjugate nor impose derogatory slights unto people I do not personally know. I am retaliatory unto corruption and lies not against people in the streets who are nothing to do with me.

I am an enemy of slave morality but I do not attempt to subjugate the will of the religionist nor slander the "people" who are consigned of it, what I do make an oppositional stance against is the malfeasant and negative people who impose their deceptive agenda through religion which subjugates the will of others. The enemy is ambiguous and we cannot see him as the religions provide a convenient veil of non-violent slave morality for the deceiver to hide behind.

I am not slating anyone personally nor impersonally but it just seems to me to be a highly irrational choice to continue the practice monotheism in the west amidst nationwide cognitive dissonance and anxiety wroth from the absurdly disproportionate ambiguity surrounding the whole "terrorist vs. Muslim" thing. Surely if your rational mind tells you that you can keep your moral values and exemplify value for others, you'd put the negative connotations to the side and make an attempt to reason with people in the land which you have migrated to? The Arab fellows who I meet at the gym, I had no problem making conversation many times, I don't think about things like religions and stuff when I'm out and about, I just never brought up religion or anything, I don't see the point if people are working toward common goals in a positive environment.

OK, so what can Satanists do, everyone hates us. There is no credibility in the political world for silly groups like Satanists. The word Satan is not taken as anything but negative and does not serve Satanists any means for progress whatsoever.

Everyone immediately hates neo-Nazi's too. And why is this? The Judeo-Christianised society has seen to that after 70 years of teaching "educative information" and although true it is in a particular context as one would present a case in a court of law, not malfeasant but definitely sided which has lead to only negative conceptions being made by all and every. Anything to do with Nazism carries immediate negative connotations in the public eye without so much as a breath of nationalist politics being discussed, anyone involved is cited as a "racist" in a dismissal tone, and nothing more than something to hold ones hands over the ears about and sing "la la la la". Even the candidates who represent national socialism are an abundance of mundane racists so no wonder it's all fucked. An ideology that has little hope of being re-established in it's noble format, not now. Hitler and his boys fucked up and so have those who wrote history by blaming an ideology instead of the human error that sent it down hill. So, away with the representatives of pseudo-neo-Naziism, it's all controlled opposition and I never vote for anything. It's too insulting to my intelligence to expect me to play the governments panem et circenses.

Everyone loves Judeo-Christian equality pathos in the west because they are ineptly soppy cunts like the modus of Jesus teaches them, even if they are sure they're atheists they are the same hosts that house the slave morality. We, as Satanist, with the word Satanist about us are not going to have a say in politics where only direct and plain words are used. Still the western society suckle at the flaccid bosom of wretched contentment smugly betraying their country and culture to show they are some kind of exemplary personification of utopian humaneness. Pretentiously solemn eyes which convey spineless cowardice and avoidance of conflict resolution.

The issue here is RESPECT, where does it say that Islam is a religion of respect? I have read scholarly essays that present views of Islam and profess all the hallmarks of respect.

Is respect the condition of being honoured, esteemed or well regarded? This is the most commonly understood definition of respect under Judeo-Christian morality. Morality having no place in nature where respect is shown to strength. One ought to naturally respect the honour, reputation and privacy of others. Respect involves staying completely away from slandering and gossiping about others. This has nothing to do with honouring imposed obligations or expectations of others, nor does respect have anything to do with being highly esteemed or revered. Respect is plain and simple maintainable of equilibrium which has nothing to do with peace, but a peace of mind is upon the ones in the position of dominance. Those who make a stance of active submission need not have their will subjugated or have any obligations imposed, the subordinate are left to go about their business, there is no shame and disgrace in stepping up to the mark of leadership and being put in place squarely by the more capable. A sense of humour and manners are important in our western society. Humour can set people at ease and relieve tension and ambiguity so easily.

There is no respect in subjugating the will and productivity of others, man, woman, child, or animal. Talking about somebody in a derogatory way is backstabbing and cowardly, and since I have only known western Muslims who are quite the ordinary and respectful chap, like me. I have no reason to talk about Muslims in a derogatory manner as my imposed conditioning is the Judeo-Christian slave morality and hence my Satanism is opposed to those imposed conditions. What I can affirm is the ambiguity problem surrounding those people who are forced to come here and have to deal with prejudice. THIS is why I am opposed to the religion's effects here in the west, not the people themselves.

Opposing paradigms is the problem and an unwillingness to trust and dispel doubts through communications. I can't say I blame anyone as lots of westerners drink alcohol and do drugs and are unruly and unapproachable for Muslims and likewise there are no go areas in Muslim societies.

In spite of what I have written I'm not tolerant at all, my way has always been to show utmost respect and never to create situations or subjugate others, if a person imposes that I acknowledge their orders, instructions or suggestions then they are met with crushing retaliation. It's all about manners with me. I am Heathen and lower myself not before any man, I step up to be his motivator, I expect the same of other men to uphold respect through exemplifying manliness, manners, humour. Some people are just too nervous to affirm mutual appreciation. When this happens it is unfortunate and a conclusion comes to pass out of necessity.

A Mosque is just a building with people you don't personally know. I can understand the feeling of retaliation toward religions, I just go about it in a tactile way and show respect before anything, I don't judge people by anything but their deeds. So you got to "socialise".

Ambiguous thoughts and emotional cognitive dissonance is unhealthy and causes unnecessary stress. It's all fucked and poorly organised. People with higher IQ and enthusiasm for pro-Man, life affirmation, needs to be in parliament.
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#56062 - 06/19/11 06:20 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Dimitri]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Conjecture to either ignore or contemplate.

People say "It's, ok he's just a moderate Muslim" like the Muslim is still a bit dodgy. This has become some kind of acceptable prejudice. A Muslim is a Muslim, and a terrorist or gangster is just a terrorist or a gangster no matter what organisation they are colouring their agenda with. The issue is removing the ambiguity and therefore removing cognitive dissonance from the nations people.

Linking Islam with serious crime is something Mosque's and real Muslims work to defeat but they are naturally afraid of the criminals because Muslim have families. Crime is something that is prohibited in Islam and has nothing to do with real Islam or Mosque's. Just like Crime has nothing to do with Christianity and Churches. However, as is evidenced, the propensity for clandestine crime to thrive through organised religions is very real. Islam can be a form of shaping a sense of identity for criminals just like any ethos.


The Qur'an is treated with immense respect by Muslims. Islam is a "genuine peace" religion, not a deceptive or ambiguous agenda.

Look at the Qur'an and you'll see what Islam is about. It's not about gangs or any kind of crime. The problem we have is not the articulate and noble Qu'ran or the intellectual moralists who formulated it's content to be memorised by the people. The Qu'ran is also not the Hadiths although this is entirely up to the individual to think for himself. The problem lies in the short attention span of human beings and their lazy inability to commit to thinking deeply about anything at all for one solitary moment. From this emerges the problematic memes and religiously justified cacoethes.

All the chapters except one begin with 'In the name of Allah the most merciful and the most kind'. This is the thought with which Muslims begin their actions. Terrorists are not Muslims of the Qu'ran. If a white man is behind an organised crime syndicate, would you say he was a Catholic or a Christian? Or would you simply summarise that he has defined himself as a criminal? Certainly Islam carries an identifiable style of crime to it when corrupted i.e. kamikaze, executions. But Chinese communists routinely administered death by one thousand cuts, decapitations and far more impressive atrocities than, say, 9/11. Catholic priests molest children with solemn eyes. The list goes on and on. What religious morality or political ethos does more than good, is to provide an organised structure for depraved humans to cultivate paths to atrocity and to veil themselves in absolute justification, to themselves and others.

There are criminals who just happen to be Muslim just as there are criminals within many cultures throughout the world. Islam is a belief system being exploited in the here and now just as all organised religion has been exploited in the past by man who is inept at understanding and actualising their own religion as it is intended, respectfully.

The propensity for justified violence to emerge through organised religion has been observed throughout the ages. Monotheism cultivates tunnel vision thinking, not just Islam by a long shot, Christianity, Judaism are also forms of righteousness thinking by which man can learn to justify himself to commit any act in the name of his God belief, from positive things to boycotting and atrocity.

The history of monotheism is logged with violence against the unbelievers, be they other creeds of monotheist, heretics, simply people trying to get on with their own lives privately. If not stopped at an early stage, the monotheists will repeat history. To deny such an eventuality is to bury ones head in the sand, this is not hate monger, it's indifference to anti-human humans. When all attempts at respectful negotiations unfortunately fail, bring the unfortunate events to conclusion. There is no need to formalise things further, the assailant has defined himself as dishonourable by his very deeds and therefore dug his own grave.

I would see a religious war starting between Muslims and Christians, as impoliteness, "rude". Rude because godless heathen care not for the conflicts of such alien beliefs, as we are too busy affirming the positive in life, valuing respect for out own species, trusting in our nature to do so. I would see nuclear fission fuse the molten remains of all and every human being hosting monotheistic memes. Blackened bones and silence would bare monument to pure black primordial evil annihilating all subordinate shades of grey. A peaceful plane of silent and soft, pure black ashes. Do people really need to be spoon fed the absolute obviousness of how to respect one another?

Yet, my personal misanthropological hygiene is not the issue here. Unfortunately, the people are not the issue, as we could annihilate a whole country and still the resurging viral memeplex effecting those who are susceptible would live on. Those in organised religion sometimes cannot think otherwise once the belief has been so devoutly and repetitiously been memorised, plus all the dedication and work gone in to cultivating the achievement itself is likely too life consumingly monumental and so much part of their identity that it's all too much to go back on for those people to make a revaluation of values.

To uncover that religious morality has too much propensity for deception and ambiguity to hide within it, religious morality has too much propensity for dissimulation and malfeasance. By asserting rational logic, there can be no effect of ambiguity, ambivalence, there can be no effect of cognitive dissonance.

Surely it's beyond all obviousness to respect ones own species and that if one loves one not need an ideology of love. Some people can't seem to grasp this so they logically meet conclusion. This is the western paradigm where unfortunately multicriminalism is all the rage these days. I wonder if the government thought it through when conceptualising the multicultural utopia?
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#56104 - 06/20/11 08:25 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Hegesias]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
If you ask me it just comes down to the fact that people are responsible for their actions despite what ever book they claim "told them to do it". It seems that the nation has been captivated by some "fools" who would like people to think that violence is in some way particular to Islam. That people who call themselves "muslims" are the only ones who try to kill others for dumb reasons.
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#61295 - 11/11/11 03:05 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Meph9]
Tropix Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/23/10
Posts: 16
Loc: Minneapolis
I realize this thread is pretty fucking old for a current event, but since its a discussion with viewpoints, I'll give mine. The attacks were by the people who flew into the building, not the religion. There's no reason they aren't free to build there. The fact that it disgruntles people attests to the way people view religion.

Islam, like Bible-based Christianity, is a bullshit religion about peace that is based on a violent book. I'd build a Mosque there too just to disrespect the people who oppose it. I'd build it because I knew it would make them mad. Because their religion and their patriotism is stupid. I laugh at the idea that the WTC site is sacred ground. It's just like the dumbasses in Israel fighting over that holy land. It's about dead people.

When we get past the feelings regarding the location of the Mosque and feelings toward Islam, we can see it for what it really is. Another crap building from another shit religion built on a city street. There's a Christian church on my block. It's ignorable. What it stands for is against a billion things I don't, but at the same time it poses no real threat whatsoever.

The idea that Tribeca is this ghetto of patriotism that has special rights is bullshit. Build a fucking mall where the WTC was. Build a Christian church to combat the mosque. Put up another world bank. Another statue of liberty - Osama bin laden with his head chopped off. The Whitehouse. A homeless shelter. An apartment building. Nothing. It's empty land now that will always mean something until the day people don't give a fuck about what it stood for. It stood for office jobs, or whatever they did there that was undoubtedly so fun for everyone in the world.

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#61296 - 11/11/11 06:11 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Tropix]
Meph9 Offline
member


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 161
 Quote:
When we get past the feelings regarding the location of the Mosque and feelings toward Islam, we can see it for what it really is.


Answer: no time soon which I've found to be rather odd because a few years ago the people who are fighting the "mosque"(really more a community center than mosque) would not have dared to display their foolish ideals in public places

After 9-11-01 GW to his credit was sure to drill the reality that it was al qaeda not the religion of islam that lead the attack. This reflected a sign that the American people were maturing and that we were capable of not being tabloid teavangelical culture war crap

It is outrageous that there were so many people called for the denial for individuals to build whatever they want within zoning laws in the city on land they own.

Fact is the abstract religion idea of islam is not the enemy and rightfully so because you can't kill thoughts and beliefs with bullets

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#61303 - 11/11/11 11:22 AM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: Meph9]
dust-e sheytoon Offline
member


Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 206
Loc: NYC
I just wish the mosque could have decorative tile work as beautiful as the mosques in Isfahan and Shiraz. They are the most beautiful buildings I've ever visited. I'm not a fan of Islam, but some of the aesthetics associated with it a pleasing. If only, as one of my Iranian acquaintances suggested, they used the beautiful mosques as libraries instead of houses of worship...
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#83841 - 01/06/14 07:35 PM Re: Gut Check: Mosque at Ground Zero? [Re: dust-e sheytoon]
antikarmatomic Offline
BANNED
stalker


Registered: 09/22/13
Posts: 3208
Loc: El Mundo
I will preface this firstly by offering my sincere condolences to anyone who happens to be reading this who lost a loved one or was in anyway traumatized by 9/11… I am not stating any of this to offend you, this is simply my take on things.

Terrorism IS working – not so much in regards to the successful attacks (which are few and far between) but in regards to the insidious and oft unanalyzed side-effects. the question you need ask is *who* is it working for?

These subtle incidentals that are far more effective in erasing the very precepts this nation was founded upon – these knee-jerk reactions and secondary effects; THESE and these alone will prove successful in transforming America (bozorge shaitan) into something so unrecognizable that it will have effectively been destroyed; not by bombs or explosions... but by fear and fear alone.

If 9/11 would not have happened would you have a problem with it? I wouldn’t. I still don't.

If 9/11 would not have happened would you be so willing to undergo such invasive surveillance? Should I accept that I cannot call my family abroad in privacy when I have done nothing and am doing nothing wrong? Should I blame "Islamfascism" (whatever the shit that means)? Shit even in the words of the qur'an (and I quote) " O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (As possible): for suspicion In some cases is a sin: And spy not on each other..." - yet this is precisely what we as a nation are doing - to our own citizens no less! It is sickly perverse.

This is a secular nation. Period. And so fucking what? Muslims (so they say) took down the towers. Sunni? Shia? Shit! how many Americans even know the difference? How many even know the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim? Moreover what the shit does it matter what religion they are? Dahmer was a Presbyterian, right?

Do not forget… Bin Laden was our best fucking friend when we were all up in arms about the communists and red-scare fighting proxy wars in Afghanistan; while as a nation children grew up "terrorized" by this whole "stop, drop, and cover" campaign.

We unilaterally invaded Iraq on the false pretense that they held chemical weapons (which they may well have had but were fucking smart enough to ship them to Syria because they knew we knew they should’ve had them because we fucking sold them to them in the first fucking place)… we stand by and do jack shit when Syria uses these (and probably the SAME) chemical weapons we were so supposedly vehemently opposed to in the first place (?!)

We put sanctions on Iran for pursuing nuclear technology that may or may not be used for nuclear weapons when not only we instigated a coupe upon a democratically elected leader (operation AJAX)… yet the only country in the fucking world to actually drop a friggin’ atomic bomb on innocent civilians was... err... US!

Meanwhile Isreal (which we back to the hilt while people at home starve) needn’t declare its nuclear arms, when the whole nation itself was just sort of sliced out of a nation that had literally nothing at all to do with the holocaust.

Additionally I find it highly suspect that Iran was hit by Stuxnet which, although is targeted at SCADA systems proliferates through 0-day exploits in windows OS… Windows! Which due to our sanctions MS has no business selling its OS to Iran in the first place.

Anyway, all gun-ho about finding this elusive “Bin laden” (who was once our ally until the wall came down) we swept Iraq under the carpet, and went into Afghanistan to find him and fight the Taliban (which back in the 80s we funded!) – and found the guy where?

Pakistan!

A nuclear armed nation… that we the people support! now… ok I can’t prove or disprove nor care to prove or disprove that 9/11 was or was not an inside-job… but if it wasn’t…
Maybe we ought to take a cold hard look at our own foreign policy before trying bring religion into this.

I’m not saying we “deserved” it… not at all… those were innocent people… but we too have innocent blood on our hands… what I am saying is well… keep-tap dancing on a mine-field and don’t be so surprised when the inevitable does happen.

Moreover – take a deep breath before taking the bait. Once upon a time this was the land of the free, home of the brave. “The only thing you have to fear is fear itself”… and never underestimate the power of the media.

Magic is misdirection; we all should know this.

Speech V


Edited by antikarmatomic (01/06/14 08:27 PM)
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