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#42374 - 08/24/10 09:31 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dan_Dread]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
Duende's unfortunate generalization about certain members occurred just I was about to respond to the original post.
I'd like to know exactly what you meant by "Greater Magic" here? I don't want to attempt a response without understanding the question.
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"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#42383 - 08/24/10 11:12 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: felixgarnet]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
A lot has been said, so this response is going to be a general reply to what I've seen.

Duende has been on thin ice since his appearance here. He doesn't seem interested in discussion, but to promote his own ideas. A lot of what he has said seems to me to be mostly empty bullshit he is unable to back up. However, I think despite this that the question he had presented at the beginning of this thread can be quite interesting.

Dimitri has stated that the question itself shows a misunderstanding of the term "Greater Magic." He then goes on to show his own misunderstanding of the term by giving an example of what definitely is not GM and calling it GM (I'm talking about the teaching example, that's clearly LM by definition). I agree with him that GM is not a single action, but a term used to describe a set of many different actions. Yet you can read the question understanding GM in that way and it still makes perfect sense. Duende might be full of shit, but the question is still valid.

The question as to why plain language is not used in these discussions has been brought up. This is where I think some simply don't get it. I can't speak for everyone, but the reason I use "magical" terms is that I do not want everyone to completely understand. It has nothing to do with wanting to feel special or anything like that. I am simply selfish and don't want everything I say to be understood by all people. I use the terms to express and discuss ideas with a very small subset of the population. I want the terms to seem vague, even if they're quite specific concepts. I see no reason to allow my knowledge that I've worked for to simply be given out to anyone. I also find them more aesthetically pleasing, but that's just an added bonus as I'm concerned.

Unfortunately, the same quality of these terms that make certain concepts inaccessible to outsiders also allows people to spit out a lot of illogical nonsense that only sounds good. Yet those that actually understand the terms and the concepts behind them are not going to be bought in by it.

It is very simple, if you refuse to try to learn and understand the terms, that is fine, but I'm not going to talk in "plain" language for everyone to understand just because you don't like it. If you have taken the time and you completely misunderstand them, I'm simply going to write you off as an idiot and pay you no more attention.

I really couldn't care less about what anyone thinks about my use of these terms, or their perceptions of me because of it, as long as they're still useful to me. If they stopped being useful, I'd stop using them.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42386 - 08/24/10 11:54 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: felixgarnet]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: felixgarnet
Duende's unfortunate generalization about certain members occurred just I was about to respond to the original post.
I'd like to know exactly what you meant by "Greater Magic" here? I don't want to attempt a response without understanding the question.


Sure Felix.
Within _The Satanic Bible_, Dr.LaVey defines magic as "The change in situations or events in accordance with one's will, which would, using normally accepted methods, be unchangeable."

In regards to GM specifically, Dr.LaVey writes,"Ritual magic consists of the performance of a formal ceremony, taking place, at least in part, within the confines of an area set aside to isolate the otherwise dissipated adrenal and other emotionally induced energy, and convert it into a dynamically transmittable force. It is purely an emotional, rather than intellectual, act. Any and all intellectual activity must take place before the ceremony, not during it. This type of magic is sometimes known as 'Greater Magic.'"

For some Satanists, it seems GM over time has a cumulative effect, in which the way the self and the world are interpreted by the intellect are permanently changed, to a greater or lesser degree.

How has Greater Magic changed your perception of yourself? \:\)
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seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42389 - 08/25/10 12:16 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: felixgarnet]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I just wanted to add my own two cents here as I am one of those members who has been using abbreviations such as GM, LM, SU, OU etc. to talk about a quite complex phenomenon.

I speak for myself here only and am presenting my own point of view. I am not interested in dictating terms to Familiars or other long term respected members in this place.

I have had success with Satanic magical rituals and by that I mean I performed ritual with a specific purpose in mind and I achieved the outcome I wanted to bring into being as a result of the ritual I performed.

This state of affairs does not take place every time I perform a ritual, but it happened enough times to make me ask the following question: how the fuck does this ritual magic work?

I am fairly new to this and I am not an expert, so it seemed natural to me that I should seek advice from the guys who know a thing or two, as a way of getting started in my studies and reflections.

I found four definitions of Greater Magic by four people whom I respected and started from there. Those definitions were provided by Dr. LaVey, Dr. Aquino, CoS High Priest Gilmore and Magister Nemo.

My thinking lately has been focused on Dr. Aquino’s definition as I felt that it held a powerful truth to it. I still feel it holds a powerful truth to it. I may have misunderstood or misinterpreted that definition, but the thoughts which I expressed in other threads regarding this particular definition were sincere.

Abbreviations such as SU, OU, GM, LM, GBM, LBM and what they signify can be quite useful I think. They at least provide me with a useful framework for thinking about a very complex process, or possibly an aspect of something much larger.

Using these abbreviations may appear pretentious, but I am so wrapped up in the learning here; I am so focused on getting the knowledge or gaining some insight; of understanding what is happening, that posing or bullshitting is just irrelevant and just doesn’t enter my head until someone else points it out.

Focusing on Dr. Aquino’s definition does not mean I am somehow rejecting other definitions, particularly the other three I have found by LaVey, Gilmore and Nemo. I very much appreciate any point of view on magic provided by Familiars and experienced members, such as Jake, who can provide authoritative insights into his own and LaVey’s thinking as well.

This study is a work in progress and is just one aspect of Satanism which I am interested in. For instance I have had a chance to briefly converse with Nemo regarding his definition of Greater Magic. He has kindly presented me with the start of a reading trail which may challenge the way I view reality itself. At this stage I just haven’t had a chance to start that line of study and research, but I am looking forward to it.

Anyway to each their own, according to their needs.

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#42390 - 08/25/10 12:32 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
However, I think despite this that the question he had presented at the beginning of this thread can be quite interesting.


Yes! Yes! Let's get back to the question that is the subject of this thread!!!
_________________________
seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42397 - 08/25/10 02:30 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3128
 Quote:
He then goes on to show his own misunderstanding of the term by giving an example of what definitely is not GM and calling it GM (I'm talking about the teaching example, that's clearly LM by definition).

As following the definition from the SB (since you and others are more comfortable with it) about GM, teaching still can be seen as an act of GM and can fully be described as such. Look up the definition and try imagining yourself in front of a class.

 Quote:
I can't speak for everyone, but the reason I use "magical" terms is that I do not want everyone to completely understand.

Logical fallacy detected! You prefer to use terms because you don't want everyone to completely understand you. In a place where other persons know of the definitions of these words and thus will understand your position. What's the use? It's better to get back to the basics, after all you have nothing special to hide.

And perhaps the biggest fallacy:
You don't want to be completely understood while you are voicing your opinion and points of view, yet somehow want to have some credit or respect for the things you say? That's fucked up... I always thought during discussion and debate that all points should be shared in a clear and understanding way to evade problems and a possible halt to the debate. Your remark here only shows you simply can't discuss properly.
If you want people to not understand/know your point of view then simply shut-up about it..

 Quote:
It is very simple, if you refuse to try to learn and understand the terms, that is fine, but I'm not going to talk in "plain" language for everyone to understand just because you don't like it.

Oh no, that's not the case. You are only self-delusioned when I read the quoted parts. And I'm also bloody sure many others are in the same situation.


Edited by Dimitri (08/25/10 02:36 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#42398 - 08/25/10 03:29 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dimitri]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Greater Magic: Directing and focusing your energy to a goal through some sort of ritual or ceremony.

While you may be doing this while teaching, teaching itself is influencing others, which is Lesser Magic.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Logical fallacy detected! You prefer to use terms because you don't want everyone to completely understand you. In a place where other persons know of the definitions of these words and thus will understand your position. What's the use?

No logical fallacy here. I don't want any dipshit that comes through here to understand everything I say in regards to magic. The people that do understand what I'm saying are the people I am talking to. If I were to speak Latin, I'd be talking only to the people that understood Latin. It is not that I don't want anyone to understand, I only want people of a certain group to understand. In this case, fellow Satanists. Your accusation that I cannot discuss properly is unfounded. I am quite clear to people that understand the language I am speaking. If you understand what I'm saying, then shut the fuck up about the particular type of language I use and go with it instead of being a whiny little bitch about it.

As far as you saying I'm self-delusioned, I can only guess that you took the remark you quoted from me as specifically directed toward you. It was a comment made concerning people in general. I'm sure you have at least some rudimentary understanding, even though I've found your comprehension skills lacking in many of your posts.

Personally, I think you just want things in "plain human language" because you lack the ability to understand without it being spoon fed to you.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42399 - 08/25/10 04:02 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3128
 Quote:
No logical fallacy here. I don't want any dipshit that comes through here to understand everything I say in regards to magic. The people that do understand what I'm saying are the people I am talking to. If I were to speak Latin, I'd be talking only to the people that understood Latin. It is not that I don't want anyone to understand, I only want people of a certain group to understand. In this case, fellow Satanists. Your accusation that I cannot discuss properly is unfounded. I am quite clear to people that understand the language I am speaking. If you understand what I'm saying, then shut the fuck up about the particular type of language I use and go with it instead of being a whiny little bitch about it.

So, only want to be understood by a certain group of people? I think that talking plain and normal language during discussion of topics related towards Satanism, or the ocuult, is as clear when the use of vague terms and concepts is used. The person who doesn't know what it is you are talking about will still not get it if you toss aside the mysticism. The Satanic philosophy is about "getting it", most of the philosophy cannot be written down or described by any vague terms or even plain rational language. And once again I make the statement: What special do you have to hide for wanting to only be understood by a select group?
I think you only want to feel special. Just as the others who are using terms such as magic once to often. Guess what, if you have something to hide and don't want to be understood by a random dipshit SHUT UP ABOUT IT! I only see your response as a pointless defense for imagined "elitism". Take a look at yourself, you are at the same level as the dipshit you want to distantiate from. The use of exotic words don't make you more valuable, it only paints your wool in the color you want it.

 Quote:
If you understand what I'm saying, then shut the fuck up about the particular type of language I use and go with it instead of being a whiny little bitch about it.

I understand what you are saying, and no I'm not letting you off that easily with "just go with the flow". I'm not a sheep who buys everything which is presented on a silver plate or a person who admires or worships old religious constructs if they are based on pure ignorance and emotional likings.

 Quote:
Personally, I think you just want things in "plain human language" because you lack the ability to understand without it being spoon fed to you

Whatever you like to think, I'm simply fed up with the sheepish attitude which is becomming too obvious amongst the newbs here. Too many here should have been kicked out long time ago for their obvious stupidity and empty posturing. I don't buy the shit the new members post in their introduction treads, a reason why I hardly say hello there, 1 out of 20 actually is the gem as they described themselves. The majority are of the likes of you, barely worth mentioning.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#42401 - 08/25/10 05:14 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dimitri]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Dimitri,

If you understand what I'm saying when I use the terms in question, what is the big deal then? So far all I've heard is that you don't think it is clear enough. I have seemed to be plenty clear for most people in my posts.

I am elitist. So what? Just about everyone here is elitist. I am better than the sheep out there in the world and proud of it. This one of the few places I've found where there are actually people I can view as being at or above where I am currently. These are people I can give great respect. You're not one of those people. I've seen nothing of value come from you. I've mostly seen you mock others, and you usually do a poor job at it.

Magic has helped me and I'd rather keep a lot of those things within a community of people I think are actually worth having a discussion and sharing knowledge with. I don't want to see some random slob use that knowledge, they haven't worked for it. I'm not going to be a one stop shop for helpful tricks for anybody to come and learn. I'm not in the teaching business. I'm going to continue to use the terms and I really don't care if you like it or not. You're nothing but an arrogant prick, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to think that about you.

I think it is you that has to feel important. You want to feel superior. You've been here longer and I'm fairly new. You're so much more rational than I am because you don't use terms that seem vague to you. They aren't vague to me, and if you can understand them they aren't vague to you either. You've decided to make a scene by challenging the use of terms that most here if not use at least understand. All so you could find somebody you think you can beat up on and feel superior to. Well fuck off. I'm not one of these newbs that come in here thinking they know it all and are going to teach all of you a thing or two. I know I don't know it all, but I didn't come here completely ignorant either. I'm not somebody you can just push around to feel better about yourself.

Now I'm done with this if all you can do is call me a sheep for speaking in terms everyone here should be able to understand. I don't expect you to just buy into anything, but if you understand what I'm saying, then you have no reason to whine about it like you do. You said yourself everyone here understands the terms, so what's your problem? Why don't you admit that you simply don't like it and stop acting like two year old that doesn't get their way. I'm not telling you that you have to use the terms yourself. I couldn't care less.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42402 - 08/25/10 05:56 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3128
 Quote:
I am elitist. So what? Just about everyone here is elitist. I am better than the sheep out there in the world and proud of it. This one of the few places I've found where there are actually people I can view as being at or above where I am currently. These are people I can give great respect.

WRONG, you are not an elitist but simply a person who THINKS he is an elitist. Any person here is but what he is, all of their opinions are equally valid as mine, yours of others. You only belief in being an elitist and think you act as one. If you truly were an elitist, where is your big pay check? Where is your respect by people in the world earned trough your skills? What is your position on the social ladder? You are but an average person who found like-minded people by sharing a same view of life. You are in no way high above me or anyone else. The truth hurts, but you are but another number, another unnoticed and unknown person in society. Deal with it unless you want to continue to live in your fantasy.

 Quote:
I've seen nothing of value come from you. I've mostly seen you mock others, and you usually do a poor job at it.

I mock people with the subtle intention of bursting their bubble and showing (or at least try to) them what they really are. Yes, it is said that a Satanist considers himself as the highest good in this/his world, but if you can't fucking make a change or act and BE as such then why the fuck do you put on the label?

 Quote:
I don't want to see some random slob use that knowledge, they haven't worked for it.

You are but a parasite yourself, the things you know and learned came from other people who probably saw you as a random slob also. That's reality.

 Quote:
You've decided to make a scene by challenging the use of terms that most here if not use at least understand. All so you could find somebody you think you can beat up on and feel superior to. Well fuck off. I'm not one of these newbs that come in here thinking they know it all and are going to teach all of you a thing or two. I know I don't know it all, but I didn't come here completely ignorant either. I'm not somebody you can just push around to feel better about yourself.

You are just my little puppet for the moment, at least untill another person would like to take your place. Yes I challenge you since you provide me the necessary answers and enforce my statements.
 Quote:
You're nothing but an arrogant prick, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to think that about you.

Correction: an arrogant prick with a lesson to teach and point out hurtfull ignorance.

Elitism is so much overrated.. perhaps the sentence "exotic words don't make you more valuable" didn't really get trough you.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#42407 - 08/25/10 10:13 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dimitri]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
First off, I'd like to thank you for participating in my little game. I've been pulling your strings as well. I've been studying you Dimitri. I've wanted to get into a heated discussion with you before I had to leave to see what you're really made of. No real fun in watching you bash complete fools. Was easy enough to ruffle your feathers a little and draw you in. You've gained some of my respect through this conversation. You're a bit more capable than I gave you credit for. A few things I want to make clear, however.

 Quote:
Any person here is but what he is, all of their opinions are equally valid as mine, yours of others.

There is no way you actually believe that. No two people's opinion are equally valid on any subject. I'm not going to a historian when I'm sick; I'm going to a doctor. Some people's opinions matter more than others in certain subjects. Some people are just stupid and their opinion doesn't matter at all.

 Quote:
If you truly were an elitist, where is your big pay check? Where is your respect by people in the world earned trough your skills? What is your position on the social ladder?

Well as you know I am fairly young, and I've squandered certain opportunities in the past which have kept me behind. I don't have a big pay check yet, but in a couple months I should have two big pay checks thanks to connections I have made. At school, I have gained the respect of my fellow students, my professors, and much of the administration through my skills and knowledge. I am top of my class, and I often speak with my professors about topics far more advanced than they had ever expected from a student in their first quarter. I also have my pick of the hottest (single) women that attend the college. All this and I just started school a couple months ago. I think I'm doing pretty well all things considered.

 Quote:
You are but an average person...

You may be the first person I've ever met to actually call me "average."

 Quote:
You are but a parasite yourself, the things you know and learned came from other people who probably saw you as a random slob also. That's reality.

This is true, but those people shared their knowledge willingly to the masses. That doesn't mean I have to do the same.

 Quote:
Elitism is so much overrated.. perhaps the sentence "exotic words don't make you more valuable" didn't really get trough you.

I never claimed the exotic words made me more valuable. They merely serve their purpose. As I said earlier, if they stopped being useful, I'd stop using them.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42410 - 08/25/10 11:28 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3128
 Quote:
There is no way you actually believe that. No two people's opinion are equally valid on any subject. I'm not going to a historian when I'm sick; I'm going to a doctor. Some people's opinions matter more than others in certain subjects. Some people are just stupid and their opinion doesn't matter at all.

A historian may say you have a cold based on the knowledge he has, a docter also makes the same guess with the only difference of having studied symptoms of many different illnesses and probably doing a little investigation on your health. The difference is that the docter is making an educated guess in comparisition to the historian. And he has the power to subscribe the medication.

 Quote:
Some people's opinions matter more than others in certain subjects.

They don't matter more, only with reference and background a persons opinion is more likely to be at the right end. But the possibility he or she is wrong still stands.

 Quote:
At school, I have gained the respect of my fellow students, my professors, and much of the administration through my skills and knowledge. I am top of my class, and I often speak with my professors about topics far more advanced than they had ever expected from a student in their first quarter.

I heard such stories before and will probably continue to hear them. You'd be surprised how unspecial your situation in reality might be.

 Quote:
You may be the first person I've ever met to actually call me "average."

Some people are just way too polite for what they truly think.

 Quote:
This is true, but those people shared their knowledge willingly to the masses. That doesn't mean I have to do the same.

What's the use of being here then? It is an unspoken agreement upon entering a text-based conversation and discussion you are willfully sharing your knowledge to the masses. If you haven't noticed, any topic here can be searched for and found on the world wide web. Since the day you accepted the terms and agreements and signed up you willfully shared your takes and knowledge to the masses. Which brings me back to the issue: why the vague and delusional terms? If you feel something shouldn't be known or shared then simply shut up about it.

 Quote:
I also have my pick of the hottest (single) women that attend the college.

Looks rank second, I prefer to pick out the little gems with knowledge. The Satanic witches as you could describe them, which is probably the only reason why I'm single at the moment.


Edited by Dimitri (08/25/10 11:31 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#42417 - 08/25/10 12:14 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
In General:

Firstly, I'd like to go on record in support of typing OU instead of "Objective Universe" and so forth. To me it's simply an abbreviation and a welcome one at that as I'm no great typist.

Secondly, I hope you folks are done with your personal attacks on each other. It's tiresome in my opinion.

 Originally Posted By: Duende

I wonder just how much GM can alter our understanding of ourselves.


Since the beginnings of the big 3 abrahamic religions, there has been a concerted movement by them to lead folks away from ritual magic as a whole. Being that these religions control most of the earth's population in some way or another, it's no surprise that most people believe there's nothing to magic. In fact it's been packaged and sold to the masses as nothing more than sleight of hand and entertaining fancy (and old wives tales).

When I began to study magic, the real kind, it basically shook my very foundations because the implications of it are exceedingly far reaching. I'm not speaking of it strictly in terms of what magic is or isn't but also in terms of the context of how people understand it and misunderstand it. Truly, for me, it was like looking into the abyss because it came to me along with the realization that most of what was taught to me was not anchored in steady and unwavering foundation. It came to me with the realization that doubt would illuminate my path for me.

How has GM changed me? Not as much as the realization that there does seem to be something to it and the fact that it has worked in giving me desired results.

DOUBT is what has truly expanded my every horizon.
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Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#42440 - 08/25/10 02:48 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Dimitri, considering that you haven't brought up any point I haven't already explained to you, I think I'm done here. At this point you're starting to seem repetitive and plain stubborn. Go and claim victory if it makes you feel better. I don't really care. Everyone here knows you simply want to put somebody down to make yourself seem better, so you're only fooling yourself.

Pitiful really.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42441 - 08/25/10 03:00 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
Everyone here knows you simply want to put somebody down to make yourself seem better, so you're only fooling yourself.


Please don't presume to speak for the group.

If you have an issue with a particular poster then please refine your statements to reflect that. I doubt that you know what "everyone here" knows.

Thank you.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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