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#42443 - 08/25/10 03:12 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3128
 Quote:
At this point you're starting to seem repetitive and plain stubborn

Since you never asnwered my questions properly and preferred to get into a circular argument it indeed seems repetitive. You prefer to take a step aside and remain in your comfortable cloud, fine. Perhaps your intellectual level isn't really ready to get what I'm aiming at and to see the fallacies in your own reasoning.
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#42447 - 08/25/10 03:51 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Brian Offline
lurker


Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 4
Well said Fnord.I agree that it is questioning all things that truly gives you the greater perspective.I too have seen incredible results in the magical rituals that I have performed.And lets face it in my opinion results are all that matters when it comes to any kind of magic.

I see from your profile that you have been around the ritual alter for awhile yourself.In my perspective magic is to help you become more than you already are,and to achieve godhood in human form.I believe the great secret that the world religions have been trying to keep from us is that we are gods who just haven't achieved godhood yet.When you wake up fully,you finally understand that we have that potential.Then it becomes a matter of strengthening your will by applying the principles of Greater Magic.
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#42449 - 08/25/10 03:52 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dimitri]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Fnord, you're right about that. I apologize.

Dimitri, I've answered your questions, you just didn't like the answers. I'm not about to explain myself to you because what you really want is for me to submit to your way of thinking. There are no fallacies in what I have said. I'd like to see you actually point out and name some if you can. You act like you're trying to teach something, when all you are trying to do is boost your own ego. I see right through your bullshit. I haven't side stepped anything, I'm just not repeating myself.

If you can actually show where there are fallacies, and they are truly fallacies, I will admit that I was mistaken. So go ahead. Show me where I went wrong and teach me something oh wise Dimitri.
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42453 - 08/25/10 04:19 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Brian]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Brian
In my perspective magic is to help you become more than you already are,and to achieve godhood in human form.


I would make the distinction that GM doesn't help you become more than you already are, but rather helps you to understand what you already are.
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#42454 - 08/25/10 04:26 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Brian Offline
lurker


Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 4
More valid point even still.
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#42456 - 08/25/10 04:34 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
 Originally Posted By: Brian
In my perspective magic is to help you become more than you already are,and to achieve godhood in human form.


I would make the distinction that GM doesn't help you become more than you already are, but rather helps you to understand what you already are.


Good point.
How does GM help you understand what you already are?
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seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42457 - 08/25/10 04:41 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
What, you want me to do ALL your homework for you? ;\)
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#42468 - 08/25/10 07:54 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
What, you want me to do ALL your homework for you? ;\)


Hardly. \:\)

I think the perceptual universe of each individual varies so greatly from one another, that beyond broad strokes of similarity, what specifically worked for you, will probably not work for someone else.
This I think is at the heart of Dr.LaVey's Combination Lock Principle. A certain notorious British gentleman once said that each man has to cut his own path through the jungle!
As you stated, Greater Magic can help you understand what you already are.
While some Satanists may not be interested in such an exploration, there are some who may be reading these words who were unaware this was possible, or recently became aware of it, and may find it meaningful and relevant.

While I would like to explore what the self is in a different thread, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that your statement implies that a transformation of awareness occurs, in which what you are is made explicitly known to you through Greater Magic. Not as some hollow spiritual pipe dream but as a strengthening of the awareness of the ego, in the here and now. This is not a supernatural effect, but a psychological one that may seem supernormal to some.

I think GM is a repeatable demonstration of how the ego naturally exists from moment to moment. It is an illustration of life in that you can participate in whenever you like, which beckons you to recognize yourself and whispers " This is what you are. Embrace it and revel in it, or reject it and remain forever asleep!"

Each GM Working is a potential glimpse of the symbolic Grail. You can be unaware of it's existence, or like Percival, not recognize it for what it is . At a certain point, you may become this Grail and notice that your ego is and has always been magic. At this point, there may be no more need to do ritual GM, as you will have an effect in situations just by entering them, and have symbolically become Satan yourself. And by Satan, I am not referring to a spiritual or physical devil with cloven hoofs( how sad that this needs clarification!), but the ideal model or prototype representing the majesty of the singular self aware ego that you are, and always were!

Within _The Satanic Bible_, Anton LaVey wrote the following,

"If man insists on externalizing his true self in the form of "God", then why fear his true self, in
fearing "God", - why praise his true self in praising "God", - why remain externalized from
"God" IN ORDER TO ENGAGE IN RITUAL AND RELIGIOUS CEREMONY IN HIS NAME?
Man needs ritual and dogma, but no law states that an externalized god is necessary in order
to engage in ritual and ceremony performed in a god's name! Could it be that when he closes
the gap between himself and his "God" he sees the demon of pride creeping forth - that very
embodiment of Lucifer appearing in his midst? He no longer can view himself in two parts,
the carnal and the spiritual, but sees them merge as one, and then to his abysmal horror,
discovers that they are only the carnal - AND ALWAYS WERE! Then he either hates himself to death,
day by day - or rejoices that he is what he is!
If he hates himself, he searches out new and more complex spiritual paths of "enlightenment"
in hopes that he may split himself up again in his quest for stronger and more externalized
"gods" to scourge his poor miserable shell. If he accepts himself, but recognizes that ritual and
ceremony are the important devices that his invented religions have utilized to sustain his
faith in a lie, then it is the SAME FORM OF RITUAL that will sustain his faith in the truth - the
primitive pageantry that will give his awareness of his own majestic being added substance."


How has Greater Magic changed the way you perceive yourself?
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seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42471 - 08/25/10 08:36 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
WEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLL now.... of course, taking this passage from The Satanic Bible might make it seem like LaVey is four-square into "something out there," and man trying to tap into it. Yea, this is the way to ENLIGHTENMENT... but those of us who've been around the block once or twice remember that there is a paragraph beyond this that reads,

"When all religious faith in lies has waned, it is because man has become closer to himself and farther from "God"; closer to the "Devil." If this is what the devil represents, and a man lives his life in the devil's fane, with the sinews of Satan moving in his flesh, then he either escapes from the cacklings and carpings of the righteous, or stands proudly in his secret places of the earth and manipulates the folly-ridden masses through his own Satanic might, until that day when he may come forth in splendor proclaiming "I AM A SATANIST! BOW DOWN, FOR I AM THE HIGHEST EMBODIMENT OF HUMAN LIFE!"

What LaVey was saying is that yes, man needs dogma and man needs ritual to a certain degree, and it is ok to satisfy those needs... the ritual chamber is called the Intellectual Decompression Chamber for a reason. It allows you to put aside the logic and knowing or life and allow oneself to ritually cleanse the mind... to go into a childlike state of suspended disbelief and emerge from that chamber having had his moment of catharsis. It's this knowledge, the idea that one must exorcise the "Monsters of the ID" in any way possible... ritual if need be... that can be the catalyst for change.

When one emerges from the Intellectual Decompression or the Ritual Chamber, life in still there. HOPEfully, one's excursion into the mind's constructed abstraction has given one a new way of looking at the problem at hand... or at least impetus to get off the pot.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#42479 - 08/25/10 10:14 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"...in which what you are is made explicitly known to you through Greater Magic. Not as some hollow spiritual pipe dream but as a strengthening of the awareness of the ego, in the here and now."

It is not necessary to do any ritual magic in order to come to terms with who you are inside. If you feel the need to do such an act to find yourself then fine, but it is not necessary for everyone.

All the Greater Magic, lesser magic, any type of ritual or rite working mean nothing, if you do not have the TRUE INNER WILL to accomplish your goals in the real world.

You must strengthen your internal Force of Will to succeed or you are just jerking off into mental masturbation. Most people just jerk off and can't make it work in the real world.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#42497 - 08/26/10 07:25 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3128
 Quote:
Dimitri, I've answered your questions, you just didn't like the answers. I'm not about to explain myself to you because what you really want is for me to submit to your way of thinking. There are no fallacies in what I have said. I'd like to see you actually point out and name some if you can. You act like you're trying to teach something, when all you are trying to do is boost your own ego. I see right through your bullshit. I haven't side stepped anything, I'm just not repeating myself.

No you did not respond, you simply rehearsed your opinions and thought of it as a good answer.
I have already indicated fallacies in your posts, read them again. I'm taking a step aside since it is futile to teach a blind person to see the world.

Let me rehearse once again,
 Quote:
I can't speak for everyone, but the reason I use "magical" terms is that I do not want everyone to completely understand.

To which I answered that someone will automatically not understand, even in plain language, if they lack the background information and simply didn't get it.
I continued to ask you why you would even use such special terms during discussion or non-related subjects. Is or was there something special you have to hide? A dark secret no one may ever know? (Never responded to this one, I even think you consiously ignored it since you felt you were wrong somewhere and didn't like to be put down).
Elaborating on your possible answer "I don't want an idiot to understand what I'm saying" is a circular argument which already has been adressed in the beginning of this paragraph.

I could only conclude you wanted to feel special and "be part of a Satanic community". Later on you continued to try to give it a twist by calling yourself an elitist and possible events with which you thought that would be impressive (and failed quite badly). Then came the comments of "pitifull", etc etc...

Really who is the idiot here?

The ritual chamber and the reality outside are 2 seperate entities. Leave your pot in the ritual chamber and try to come out with a reasonable and good-working mind which is not based on vague and mystic abstractions keen on fantasy.


Edited by Dimitri (08/26/10 08:01 AM)
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#42500 - 08/26/10 10:17 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Morgan]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Morgan

It is not necessary to do any ritual magic in order to come to terms with who you are inside.


Hi Morgan,

I didn't mean to suggest anything quite so esoteric in my earlier response.

I'll break it down a bit so I'm not misunderstood.

I have a lot of noise in my life. I have teenagers in the house, a 9 to 5 which is really more like a 7 to 6, an established business that's now finally consistently in the black and a new(ish) business venture that I'm trying to get off the ground.

When I said this:
"I would make the distinction that GM doesn't help you become more than you already are, but rather helps you to understand what you already are."

I meant it in the context of my life. GM or ritual isn't going to make me more than I am. It does, for me, give me some time to turn off the noise and focus my attention and energy inward. I perceive my subconscious (and my SU) as a sort of processor that works in the background. Anecdotally, I've told my son on many occasions that if he's frustrated with a problem he should, with will, put it aside for a while until an answer comes to him. I've solved many a problem by dreaming about it which is how my subconscious informs me that it's done figuring something out.

It is in this way that I meant that ritual can help one to understand oneself. It is a focused and deliberate effort to bring that which is outward to the inside to attempt to effect change. In doing so, it works as a sort of mirror for me because it shows me that I am capable of solving larger problems than I had previously given myself credit for which does, in turn effect the world around me.

I have also effected change via ritual magic that is more in line with Jake's definition of it... but that's another thread entirely.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#42515 - 08/26/10 10:48 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Dimitri, all you did was claim there was a logical fallacy, then continued to claim that it was circular reasoning. Speaking to Satanists using terms commonly known to Satanists is not circular reasoning. Not wanting outsiders in my business is a personal preference, so you can't claim logical fallacy on that either. You just don't know what you're talking about. Simply saying it is a logical fallacy doesn't make it so.

Even if you could actually show how any of this is circular reasoning, you would still have to show that it is weak. You might not know this, but not all circular reasoning is bad.

This is my last post in a while, so even if you respond I probably won't see it, at least for some time. I know it is too much to ask for you to stop thinking you're so high and mighty, and far more logical than everyone else. You seem to think you have it all figured out. You said I need a dose of reality. You need to take a good long look in the mirror.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42789 - 09/05/10 01:17 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3128
 Quote:
Dimitri, all you did was claim there was a logical fallacy, then continued to claim that it was circular reasoning.

Circular reasoning most of the time implies a logical fallacy somewhere along the road. So, what does it even matter you are pointing the obvious out?

 Quote:
Speaking to Satanists using terms commonly known to Satanists is not circular reasoning. Not wanting outsiders in my business is a personal preference, so you can't claim logical fallacy on that either.

Reread the discussion, it has been some days ago. Perhaps you are now able to notice the stupidity of some of your statements I was pointing out. It is way different then what you seemingly think.

 Quote:
You might not know this, but not all circular reasoning is bad.

And you really believe that?

 Quote:
I know it is too much to ask for you to stop thinking you're so high and mighty, and far more logical than everyone else.

Not even going to try and proof I think I'm more high and mighty than everyone else.
Let me just keep it on: "Don't give me a reason to look down at you, you simply know I will and you'll end up having a sore neck for looking up."

 Quote:
You need to take a good long look in the mirror.

I am awesome and hot. High fuckability factor and such. If the mirror wasn't that cold and hard I'd make out with myself...
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#42852 - 09/07/10 03:48 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
 Originally Posted By: Morgan

It is not necessary to do any ritual magic in order to come to terms with who you are inside.


Hi Morgan,

I didn't mean to suggest anything quite so esoteric in my earlier response.

I'll break it down a bit so I'm not misunderstood.

I have a lot of noise in my life. I have teenagers in the house, a 9 to 5 which is really more like a 7 to 6, an established business that's now finally consistently in the black and a new(ish) business venture that I'm trying to get off the ground.

When I said this:
"I would make the distinction that GM doesn't help you become more than you already are, but rather helps you to understand what you already are."

I meant it in the context of my life. GM or ritual isn't going to make me more than I am. It does, for me, give me some time to turn off the noise and focus my attention and energy inward. I perceive my subconscious (and my SU) as a sort of processor that works in the background. Anecdotally, I've told my son on many occasions that if he's frustrated with a problem he should, with will, put it aside for a while until an answer comes to him. I've solved many a problem by dreaming about it which is how my subconscious informs me that it's done figuring something out.

It is in this way that I meant that ritual can help one to understand oneself. It is a focused and deliberate effort to bring that which is outward to the inside to attempt to effect change. In doing so, it works as a sort of mirror for me because it shows me that I am capable of solving larger problems than I had previously given myself credit for which does, in turn effect the world around me.

I have also effected change via ritual magic that is more in line with Jake's definition of it... but that's another thread entirely.




I enjoyed reading this response. I find I share the same view. I have found that through certain mental rituals or ritualized meditations that one can refine his focus on a goal at hand.

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