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#43327 - 09/29/10 03:28 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lamar]
Sinthesis Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 40
Loc: various places in New Jersey
What percentage of the participants of this forum do you think breaks down into the following categories?

(1) Atheists/skeptics who scoff at "magic" and who do not value psychological exercises under the name of "magic" either

(2) Atheists/skeptics who see "magic" as a strictly a psychological exercise performed by material beings in a material universe, and do practice such exercises or advocate them, but with extreme awareness of their fundamentally mundane nature

(3) Theists or at least occultists who believe they are seriously summoning spirits or interacting with a different plane -- to me this is the only genuine and proper use of the word "magic"

(4) Infuriating word-benders who, after calling rituals "magic" for so long, now actually try to believe that they can move stuff with their minds, and are generally confused and trip over their words as they try to explain their doublethink



LaVey was frustratingly vague so I don't cite him as an authority on the issue of whether magic is literally magic or personal exercises.
While I respect Aquino for setting up a satanist group that isn't full of clowns and idiots, as far as I've heard, I am kind of disappointed that he defines magic as practices which alter the subjective universe and may (MAY) create a corresponding change in the objective universe.
What a fantastic way to get people going through the motions of doing rituals, first strictly for "self-improvement" purposes, and then over time deluding themselves with the hopes that a thousand hands folded in prayer will ever exceed the power of two hands at work. It's such a manipulative trick. It lets the person making the claim/setting the definition off the hook in case the practitioner never does succeed in moving stuff with their minds. At the same time this definition always leaves the hope of psychic powers (outside of their own body and mind) dangling in front of the practitioner.

I've seen rather frank admissions on this forum from the Doc that magic is basically a psychological exercise, and that the real changes in the outside world simply come from whatever confidence, self-consciousness or inspiration you gained from the exercises as you carry out your goals using practical mundane methods. Please stop calling this magic. It's not magic.

If humanity and world history are the sandbox in which we live our lives, then is not the highest art of change the art of politics, or perhaps economics? The art of re-organizing society to accomplish monumental changes? Of course all the related fields -- mass culture, etc. If you wish to go down a strictly individual road of changing your surroundings, then the highest arts would then instead be personal finances, applied psychology, various practical skills you could use to find employment, etc.

Of course we want to know exactly who we are, and what it is that we want, and to be certain that we really are acting from our self-most self as we go about making the changes in the world/our lives that we desire...
...but none of this is magical. Sorry. Let me know when you're literally summoning demons, or moving stuff directly with your mind, not using your body. Literally, not in some poetic sense. (But do let me know, I want in on it.)

Clarity.


Edited by Sinthesis (09/29/10 03:35 PM)
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#49337 - 02/22/11 12:02 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: TV is God]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
 Originally Posted By: TV is God
Yeesh, the gloves sure came off there didn't they?

Dimitri, I think you do have a point about philosophical terms being over-mystified. I understand the annoyance of people stretching and twisting meanings of the logical into the illogical. I would agree that if the standard were more direct there'd be less misinterpretation but I'd also have to agree with XiaoGui's point about accepting that it is the standard.

I don't think using the less direct terms necessarily is a sign of a crave for mysticism (and even when it is some people just crave that mysticism. Some like to dramatize logic. I don't see any problem with it as long as they actually mean the logic behind it.) The fact is, for better or for worse, the mystified terms are the standard.

It seems to me that the language in LaVey's writing was meant to mislead and confuse those that weren't willing to understand actual meanings. To confuse those that didn't really want to get it. But more so I think it was because it's just plain more fun. And between intelligent people this fun shouldn't get in the way of debate.

Whatever your opinion is on the terms you have to accept that there are certain standards of communication that it's more effective to just go with than fight even if you feel they're misleading. I understand we're all sick of fights over semantics but you have to see that this is just one more fight over words and not meanings.


To perceive what you have and put forward these sobering points in such a concise wording for others to understand is very much appreciated because lets face it, conceited Satanists like to intellectually masturbate themselves to a select audience of mental cripples don't they..

I have seen people pick and dyslexic persons for their grammar whilst not having the intelligence to proof read their well thought out ideas. Mundanes will revel in looking down at others while missing what's actually going on above them.

Respect.
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#51167 - 03/17/11 03:11 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Annihilus916 Offline
lurker


Registered: 03/17/11
Posts: 2
And here I was thinking I was going to actually learn something in this forum. "On to the next one"
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#51168 - 03/17/11 03:14 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Annihilus916]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
And you went through the effort of creating an account to share this, when you could already have moved on?

D.

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#52547 - 04/09/11 06:17 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
mightisright Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 24
Personally, for me, Greater Magic has taught me that the human mind really does need psychodrama. Because, besides magical rituals, Satanism has no other psychodrama, I would feel at a loss without Greater Magic.
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#53150 - 04/19/11 01:21 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Lucif4man Offline
lurker


Registered: 04/17/11
Posts: 3
Interesting rant by all. This same rant seems common among many threads and forums I have seen. It would appear that the 'Satanism' world is split between believers in the occult and hedonists using the term satanist. I would think it better to split the groups into Satanic Hedonism forums and Ritualistic Satanism. I am sure I am preaching to the choir here and of course, who am I, right? It seems little different from skeptics and ghost hunters arguing their own line of semantics.

I would think the majority of 'satanists' probably got their start by looking into ritual magic and Crowley etc. Finding their nature suited and drawn to darker ideology they naturally migrate to Satanism only to find hedonists using a term that truly is a contradiction in ideas.

So, that being said. Where are the 'true' believers in all the things that go bump in the night? I can't imagine that with the long history of occult and dark magic that everyone has lost their faith in demons and creatures under their bed. If that were the case, there would be no Christians either.

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#53178 - 04/19/11 10:58 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucif4man]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
There are plenty of "true believers", if you mean the theistic types who think Satan is a personal being they can worship, communicate with, and magically draw occult power from.

The problem with this kind of perspective is that they are usually just as boring as the white-light worshipers. They tend to whitewash Satan as some sort of a misunderstood good-guy who really wants what's best for humanity. They often see themselves as central to some sort of "higher evolution" or "spiritual war", and hubristically think they can actually attain genuine gnosis of the universe.

Is hugging onto the same blanket of anthropocentrism really "dark" when it is identical to that of the Religionists in every respect, save that it is dyed black? Is it not much more Sinister to confront a cold and unfeeling cosmos where humanity has no hope for spiritual salvation, save for an eternity of unconscious oblivion? Is it not more Luciferian to seize your own existential meaning from this nihilistic reality and likewise construct your own ontological empire out of sheer willpower alone?

I can't speak for all here, but I came to Satanism because my previous definition of God via Catholicism didn't correspond to how I saw the universe operate. I toyed with various anthropomorphic and anti-theistic paradigms for a while, but finally realized that I simply needed to accept God as He truly is-- the inhuman and chaotic force which animates reality. Because of this adversarial nature, I also realized "Satan" was the most relevant single name for the Deity known to me.

I am of a much more "mystic" slant than most here, but I see "hedonism" as merely one small part of Satanism. The rest is knowledge, discipline, and personal evolution.


Edited by The Zebu (04/19/11 11:58 PM)
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#53191 - 04/20/11 10:42 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Sinthesis]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
I'll argue for magic being so broad a category as to include anything that could be of use to achieve a desired real world result. But I consider magic something to do rather than a means to do, which may be our bone of contention. Even if what you're doing is working with 'spririts' to facilitate the result - what you are doing is producing a result - the spirits are just one of many possible means.

Ah, but I'm wrong! You protest! And I have to ask, on what grounds am I wrong? And then you produce a ... dictionary (perhaps - or other authority), and prove me wrong.

Meanwhile, because I'm wrong and have this delusion that the result is the magic and that any way you get there is a practice of magic - while you improve your capacity to work with spirits - I may be working on improving my capacity to realize making real change in my world.


Edited by myk5 (04/20/11 10:43 AM)

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#53193 - 04/20/11 11:05 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: myk5]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
As for the main question: How has (Greater) magic changed me?

Well, I can't know the answer to that question really. The me that never worked with magic being so hypothetical.

I'll confess I'm vague about what distinguishes 'Greater' magic from other magic.

I did surprise myself about a year ago where I survived a house fire and lost my pet cats and all my stuff. It could have been emotionally scarring, but I simply accepted it and determined to do the best I could. I'm now employed, and have many projects I work on.

So I seem to have mastered a degree of non attachment. wow.

Psychologically, magic does two nice things - it fosters a belief that you are not helpless, and it orients you to optimism.

Confirmation bias key to build belief, that's why I should attribute everything that doesn't suck in my life to my magic practice. And I do privately, of course.

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#59448 - 09/24/11 04:28 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Ashley Corinne Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Utah
I wouldn't say that GM has changed me per se. I have accomplished personal goals with the help of GM, but I wouldn't say that it has changed me, except maybe helping me to realize how much personal power I have. I've changed myself through reflection, contemplation, and mental exploration. I think of GM as a tool, not a state of mind or being.
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#59449 - 09/24/11 05:46 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Ashley Corinne]
Zach_Black Offline
member


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
The few times that I have practiced greater magic I walked away feeling like a fool. In my opinion greater magic is nothing but psychodrama and wishful thinking. You might as well throw some chicken bones into a cup full of tea leaves and then pour that on top of a deck of tarot cards when Saturn lines up with U-anus .
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#59458 - 09/24/11 10:45 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Zach_Black]
RAIDER Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 152
Loc: PA
Ritual and altars have been employed by humans for so long, and in so many cultures.
The validity of 'greater magic' can be argued endlessly......I'd say the belief, or lack thereof, is personal and individual.......whatever.
Personally, I like to set up an altar once a year to ritualize honoring folks and animals who have died......who still live in my memory, just because it makes me feel good to do so.....my partner participates too.
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#59459 - 09/24/11 10:48 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: RAIDER]
RAIDER Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 152
Loc: PA
ps- real world application of the will can create great change. If I need a job, I can clean myself up.........get off my ass and go look for one.
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#59469 - 09/25/11 02:18 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Zach_Black]
Ashley Corinne Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Utah
 Originally Posted By: blackzach
The few times that I have practiced greater magic I walked away feeling like a fool. In my opinion greater magic is nothing but psychodrama and wishful thinking.


I think old man LaVey couldn't have agreed with you more! I think Greater Magic is just that: psychodrama and wishful thinking. In the ritual chamber--or the "ritual space" as it could be better described, since rituals don't always happen in a chamber--you will yourself into another way of thinking with the help of imagery, props, spells, incantations, etc. Magic is not a supernatural process, it's a psychological process. I personally think that the practice of magic is older than religion, and that religion is simply institutionalized magic. If you look at any religion--from Christianity to Hinduism--they all operate under the same principles. I grew up in Mormonism where every week they eat a little piece of bread and drink a little shot glass of water. It's a magical ritual where every individual practitioner is wishing for something when they do it.

The human mind responds to exterior stimuli, be it images, sounds, music, light, darkness, whatever. Greater magic is just the conscious manipulation of these things to bring about the effects we want, as opposed to organized religion where they bring about the effects they want.
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~Ashley

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#59621 - 09/29/11 02:51 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Ashley Corinne]
Ucs Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 9
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
I personally think that the practice of magic is older than religion, and that religion is simply institutionalized magic. If you look at any religion--from Christianity to Hinduism--they all operate under the same principles.


I have to say that I am leaning toward the same view. Man is curious by Nature Yet we all have things that we deal with in different ways. Religion is a shared belief system and communities would have developed and the Power struggle began...Until you are in the present day where we Have a Plethora or different ways to Communicate within ourselves to Be free of Emotions, and in doing so releasing that energy into the universe; within balance of course. The end result being, you are left without what you wanted to get rid of and that energy manifest itself into your desire. Like you said the principles are the same but the road to the end quite different...
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