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#59750 - 10/04/11 09:36 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Ashley Corinne]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Ashley Corinne
 Originally Posted By: blackzach
The few times that I have practiced greater magic I walked away feeling like a fool. In my opinion greater magic is nothing but psychodrama and wishful thinking.


I think old man LaVey couldn't have agreed with you more! I think Greater Magic is just that: psychodrama and wishful thinking.


I think that perhaps Anton LaVey thought that greater magic was an important aspect of Satanism. After all, he dedicated 1/2 of TSB to it and then saw fit to write a whole other book on the subject. I didn't know the man personally, but he didn't seem the type, to me, to waste time on things he thought unimportant.

'Psychodrama' I agree with, but 'wishful thinking' not so much. Wishful thinking doesn't figure into taking the reins and making things happen.


Edited by Fnord (10/04/11 09:38 AM)
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#59753 - 10/04/11 10:58 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't know Fnord, I remember clearly when reading TSB the first time wondering what the hell that second part was doing in there.

I'm of the opinion that the addition of that ritualistic part had much more to do with the "show" side of Satanism than with the practical value of those specific rituals. After all, it wouldn't be Satanism if there wouldn't something remind all of Black Masses or "evil" rituals of the past.

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#59755 - 10/04/11 11:31 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Diavolo]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Perhaps, D.

I don't think whether or not it was show negates the argument that LaVey perhaps thought it was an important part of Satanism. Clearly he thought the 'show' was integral as he said himself that Satan never had a public mouthpiece before him.

I've seen lots of comments recently alluding to GM as a joke and that ASL never meant it to be a serious undertaking. I'm not sure that's the case.

Maybe Jake and/or The Doc will see fit to weigh in on this one.
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#59756 - 10/04/11 11:42 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I don't really consider that part of their Satanism a joke and it might have use for some for whatever reason, even if only to fulfill a cultural hard-wiring to ritualism but I personally never had any need for it.

I'm quite down to earth in those matters and for me solving whatever "mental" problem was most logical to solve it there where it appears; in the head.

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#59757 - 10/04/11 12:00 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Diavolo]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Yeah, the PITA factor is definitely in effect with the bother of setting up a space and doing it up as prescribed.

Eyes closed in a comfortable chair in a dark room usually works for me... though I do like candles or larger fire at times to focus attention on. Either that or building stuff in my garage with a DVD on and the beer fridge stocked.
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#59767 - 10/04/11 04:47 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The way I see it, all those rituals are basically about one thing; emotions and how to control these.

Once you understand that, you can focus on where it is really needed without losing all that time and effort at creating an "atmosphere" and a lot of trivialities surrounding.

The art of controlling emotions is in learning to understand them and you understand them by learning to understand yourself.

Those rituals might have an effect but as long as they are just a cure for a specific need, you keep requiring them. Solve the need and you no longer require the ritual.

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#59800 - 10/06/11 12:29 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Goliath Offline
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Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 93
I've always found Greater Magic both enjoyable and useful.

It seems to me that the Greater Magic described in both the Satanic Bible and the Satanic Rituals is a spiritual practice that is in every way opposite to its Christian counterpart, prayer, and even to payer's traditional inversion, magic.

Traditionally, both prayer and magic are attempts to use the spiritual to affect the physical. Both the person who prays and the person who works magic invokes a spiritual force in hopes of achieving a physical effect. The last time I felt the urge to pray, for example, was more than twenty years ago, when my girlfriend was in intensive care. As I sat in the waiting room, completely helpless, my childhood conditioning came back to me: please God, don't let her die. It was rather startling, since I had not consciously believed in God for years.

What prayer provides, then, is the illusion of power to the powerless--the feeling of doing something useful, and of being able to affect your own fate. This feeling is very important for the psychological well-being of people under stress. Its absence leads to psychological illness--for example, the shell shock which afflicted soldiers in the Great War, trapped in their trenches under artillery fire, unable to advance or retreat, unable to do anything but wait for a shell to fall on them and blow them to pieces. These soldiers not only turned to prayer for solace, but also to magic, in the form of rituals and talismans to ward off danger.

Traditional witchcraft and black magic, in the medieval and early-Modern periods, though condemned by the Church, was basically the same thing as Christian prayer. Greater Magic, by contrast, is the reverse. Rather than an attempt to use the spiritual to affect the physical, it's an attempt to use the physical to affect the spiritual, i.e. the psychological. Instead of seeking spiritual intervention, and only incidentally obtaining psychological relief, the Greater Magician seeks psychological relief through a form of spiritual role-play. Instead of beseeching a God who isn't there, the ritualist plays the part of a mighty sorcerer, invoking the "kingdom of darkness" and whatnot.

This is the connection between Greater and Lesser Magic. Lesser Magic too is a type of psychological manipulation. But Lesser Magic is an attempt to influence others, while Greater Magic is an attempt to influence oneself. When properly conducted, I find it calms and concentrates the mind quite effectively. Once catharsis is achieved, and my emotional balance has been restored, I'm able to think more clearly on how I can really gain mastery over what troubles me. That is to say--how I can physically affect my physical circumstances.

Of course, it's not the only spiritual practice available, nor even necessarily the most effective. In some cases, I've been able to achieve a similar result simply by following the relaxation and controlled-breathing exercises I learned in high-school drama class. Or, as the ancient Stoics taught, by just sitting down calmly and reasoning with myself. Indeed, in some cases, I've achieved a similar result just by counting to ten.

But I find that ritual offers a number of advantages which these other practices do not. One of these is community--the chance to come together and engage in a shared activity with like-minded people--a chance which regrettably does not come very often, at least in my case. Another is the experience of the sublime which careful stagecraft and dramaturgy can provide. All forms of magic are ultimately about power, and as Edmund Burke pointed out, there is "nothing sublime which is not some modification of power." A third is the way Greater Magic, with all its blasphemy and invocations of diabolical powers, provides a ritualized affirmation of opposition to white-light religion. And finally, in my case, because of my particular background, I just enjoy it for its own sake.
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An illusion--with intelligence! A malignant vision, with a will of pure evil!

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#66087 - 04/12/12 04:22 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
infinity Offline
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Registered: 01/17/12
Posts: 21
Personally, I am convinced that it is possible to consciously contact spiritual entities that exist outside of myself; after all, we humans are not the only intelligent spiritual beings who exist within infinite universes consisting of numerous planes of vibration.

I don't believe that acknowledging the existences of extra-dimensional beings, outside of myself, is subjecting myself to a division of the schism that divides consciousness and subconsciousness. So it is that I ardently understand that "within is without and without is within" ; yet the many supernatural experiences in which I've had have fully convinced me that we human spirits are not alone.

I am an incarnate spirit-entity, and I know that it is possible to beseech and thus breech contact with other spirits of non-human, extra-dimensional origins. To believe that spirits who exist within extra-dimensions are merely delusions within my inner mind would be just as insane as believing that other humans who I interact with on a daily basis are also delusions within my inner mind. Call me crazy if you will, but no one will sway my perception on this matter.

Stately, I developed my own system of sorcery in which converges lower magick with higher magick; and my answer to your question is that the practice of sorcery has cracked open my ethereal aura; thereby expanding my conscious awareness "beyond self".
All is one, yet all equally demands individual attention, beyond the illusions of self.

Author of 777 V.T.T.S.A. and Constructive Theosophical Chaosophy 555.

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#66088 - 04/12/12 04:38 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: infinity]
Erich Zann Offline
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Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 193
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: infinity
I know that it is possible to beseech and thus breech contact with other spirits of non-human, extra-dimensional origins.


I have no problem with your views at all, even if they're not in line with my own - after all you say that you believe certain things and are personally convinced of them. But in this paragraph you come up with knowledge - so can you deliver some kind of proof to the statement I quoted? "Knowledge" should be backed up in contrast to solely personal beliefs.

 Originally Posted By: infinity
To believe that spirits who exist within extra-dimensions are merely delusions within my inner mind would be just as insane as believing that other humans who I interact with on a daily basis are also delusions within my inner mind. Call me crazy if you will, but no one will sway my perception on this matter.


Nobody wants to sway your perception - in fact, I'm sure most people here don't care about you or your views at all.
But once again: Why is it insane to deny the existence of any "external spirits" apart from the body? You say it is, but you don't bring up any reason why.

 Originally Posted By: infinity
Stately, I developed my own system of sorcery in which converges lower magick with higher magick


Hell, why do all self-proclaimed sorcerers never seem to learn the spelling of "magic"...

 Originally Posted By: infinity
Author of 777 V.T.T.S.A. and Constructive Theosophical Chaosophy 555.


Some cryptical abbreviations mixed together with occult-sounding words and some numbers. Who do you try to impress with that stuff?
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The Pledge of Allegiance does not end with "Hail Satan!".

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#66136 - 04/15/12 03:05 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Erich Zann]
infinity Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/17/12
Posts: 21
Hey man, I apologize for causing you grief with my words, as such was not my intention.

You stated and asked: "But in this paragraph you come up with knowledge - so can you deliver some kind of proof to the statement I quoted?"

A rhetorical question in response to yours: "Can you prove what "you ascertained in your posting?"

My extended answer: All is merely perception. Hence, under the context of that knowledge in which I had intended to convey, but merely concisely, relates to the substance of understanding, i.e. as chiefly derived from one's personal experiences.

Quite frankly, I could fancy upon the many "O.O.B.E's" which I have had throughout my life, or other supernatural experiences in which I have beheld, both alone and in the company of other practitioners; yet your Atheist responses would likely be the same! You probably don't believe in spirit, so why express such things to you? A heavy hit of DMT might help you escape the physical shell that you think you are. How much fluoride has your government shoved down your throats in Germany? Rage against the machine that would seal your third-eye! By the way, the majority of my out of body experiences were soberly induced, and thus before I ever partook of a mid expanding substance!

I would surmise that you are, indeed, an Atheist; no offense, for I actually pity you. Furthermore, I do not hate you, and nor am I even slightly offended by your demeanor.

Also, the term magic demeans the spiritual value of what sorcery truly is; rage against the machine, and to hell with the system! So, hence I shall modestly retain the K in magick.

Well, I never denied that some supernatural experiences directly relate to spiritually coalescing with one's higher-self, BUT not all supernatural experiences, or contact with spiritual forces, entail communions with one's higher self; for there are myriads of spiritual entities which independently exist apart from one's higher self. To believe otherwise would be just as arrogant and self-centered as to convincing one's self that every person and animal that exists around you is really a non-existent figment of your imagination.

The physical body is merely a temporary vehicle for the spiritual entity who inhabits it. The physical brain is merely a filter of higher consciousness, for one's true mind exists outside of the brain of the physical vehicle, within the spiritual aura.

Hail to the Gods.

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#66137 - 04/15/12 03:47 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: infinity]
Erich Zann Offline
member


Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 193
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: infinity
Hey man, I apologize for causing you grief with my words, as such was not my intention.


Dude, you didn't cause any grief at all - it's just that there are loads of people claiming the things they "know" are the ultimate truth, etc, blabla, but if you ask them how they came to that conclusion, in most cases you receive nothing which could be labeled as an answer or source for these statements.

 Originally Posted By: infinity
My extended answer: All is merely perception. Hence, under the context of that knowledge in which I had intended to convey, but merely concisely, relates to the substance of understanding, i.e. as chiefly derived from one's personal experiences.


Okay, like I said before, personal experiences or opinions one has are his own cup of tea. If your experiences lead you to the conclusion that things are the way you see them is fine, but your first post sounded like "It's a fact, I know this, and everyone has to accept that it is, otherwise the person's crazy/dumb/whatever" - and if someone makes a statement that "big", one should be able to come up with evidence.

 Quote:
Quite frankly, I could fancy upon the many "O.O.B.E's" which I have had throughout my life, or other supernatural experiences in which I have beheld, both alone and in the company of other practitioners; yet your Atheist responses would likely be the same! You probably don't believe in spirit, so why express such things to you?


That is indeed correct - I don't believe in spirit. On the other hand, I don't think the people talking about OOBEs or similar things are making all that stuff up - I just don't think that this has anything to do with spirit, soul, ghosts, etc.


 Quote:
A heavy hit of DMT might help you escape the physical shell that you think you are. How much fluoride has your government shoved down your throats in Germany?


If I needed mind-altering substances to experience anything spritual, that would be the best proof that all this stuff is simply something made up by the own mind while being intoxicated. And unfortunately, most people who believe in things you mention don't experience anything without their drugs. Well, you wrote that your first experiences occured in a sober state, so maybe you're a rare exception.

Oh, and by the way, even if it was rhetorical: In contrast to the USA our government doesn't fluoridate our tap water. In fact, the only thing fluoridated in my daily life are my toothpaste, my mouthwash and a few kinds of salt.

 Quote:
I would surmise that you are, indeed, an Atheist; no offense, for I actually pity you. Furthermore, I do not hate you, and nor am I even slightly offended by your demeanor.


Well, I care about your pity as much as you do about my demeanor and I didn't expect you to be offended in any way. I do admit that my post was in some parts provocative and I would lie if I said that this wasn't intended, but if you were seriously offended now, then you would be the one to pity.

 Quote:
Well, I never denied that some supernatural experiences directly relate to spiritually coalescing with one's higher-self, BUT not all supernatural experiences, or contact with spiritual forces, entail communions with one's higher self; for there are myriads of spiritual entities which independently exist apart from one's higher self. To believe otherwise [...]


Again you just come up with "It is that way, and you can't be serious to believe otherwise, right?". Reminds me of Ayn Rand's "The Argument from Intimidation" we have in here: http://www.the600club.com/topic26094-1.html - such arguments add nothing to a discussion, because they just try to degrade your counterpart.


Edited by Erich Zann (04/15/12 03:51 PM)
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#66146 - 04/16/12 12:58 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Erich Zann]
infinity Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/17/12
Posts: 21
In addendum, I compliment you for the calmness and intelligence in which you exhibit in your statements.

I'm surprised that your governmental authorities aren't fluoridating your water supply, for, besides the fluoridation of salt, I am also aware that many of the European countries are receiving fluoride through poisoned dairy products. How about Germany?

Yes, unfortunately, the USA poisons its citizens by fluoridating the public water supplies, Nationwide. Fluoride propaganda is rampant here; besides the general ignorance of the USA populace. Despite the aforementioned, I am solemnly inclined to believe that the majority of our citizens are not actually voting for the fluoridation of our water, and various foods, drugs & dental care products. Such is Federally mandated by the FDA and the ADA, among other Bureaus. Is it not more than an ironic coincidence that the ones who maintain power over the masses have suppressed and outlawed many of the natural substances which stimulate heightened pineal-gland functions; whilst they have mandated and promoted a vast variety of chemical substances which repress healthy pineal-gland activity?

Stately, I am not attempting to push my views over on you. I am already aware that you don't believe in spirit, but I must add that, (for some odd reason), the ones who currently rule the world do not want the masses to be spiritually conscious, which highly offends me; and there isn't very much that I perceive as being offensive anymore. Rage against the machine!

Peace.

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#66150 - 04/16/12 03:06 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: infinity]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
As far as I know, fluoridation of public drinking water never killed loads of people so I would not exactly call it poisoning the population. Besides that fact, I bet a great sum of money that while drinking all those favorite bottled liquids you ingest with great joy, you never wondered about the fluoride levels in those. But it ain't the government selling those, so who cares. And they're yummy too.

Also the claim that the ones who rule the world do not want the masses to be spiritually conscious, whatever the heck that means, is a bit silly since I doubt you have privileged access to the agenda of those who rule the world or even know who they are, should they exist.

So how would you know? Besides that, the vague claim someone who might rule the world does not want us to be something does not provide any evidence that this something is real. What an argument like this is called is; deflection.

All you did was make vague claims without providing anything supporting those besides more vague claims.

D.

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#66155 - 04/16/12 07:50 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Diavolo]
TwIzT Offline
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Registered: 12/21/11
Posts: 127
Well here is my vague claim. There is a store called Whole Foods which is said to sell organic and natural foods.

My friend that works there, claims that eating anything that is not organic or natural like the products from his store actually hurt your body and could end up giving you cancer.

Now his claim could be valid or a corporate revenue scam.

Make it cheaply, kill some people who cares we see profit.

By the way I am being sarcastic profit is not a valid reason.


Edited by TwIzT (04/16/12 07:53 AM)
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#66161 - 04/16/12 09:57 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Diavolo]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1641
Loc: Orlando, FL
I don't see how fluoridation of water really makes that much of a difference. All studies I've read on the topic don't suggest any substantial adverse effects from the process, aside from one or two extremely rare accidents resulting in overdosing the water supply. The low amount of fluoride present in the water doesn't seem much more dangerous than any of the other chemicals found naturally and artificially in our environment.

The claimed effects of fluoridated water are too ridiculous to be practical, ranging from accusations of poisoning and mass genocide, to the idea that it is also some sort of a mind-control drug that makes the population easier to control. I've even seen some paranoid people use this to marginalize the arguments of those who disagree with them... "you can't comprehend the Illuminati conspiracy because the fluoride in the water is clouding your mind!"

It's all rather stupid and lacking in evidence.

Then again... we're all just trying to keep the international communist conspiracy from tainting our precious bodily fluids.


Edited by The Zebu (04/16/12 10:00 AM)
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