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#42056 - 08/19/10 11:48 AM How has Greater Magic changed you?
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA

Utilization of Greater Magic over the years has had a cumulative effect on how I perceive myself. This is what I most value about GM. It seems that GM creates a temporary environment in which the ego can come to see itself, without the constant barrage of the moment to moment demands and distractions of society.
The non Satanist can practice ritual and be convinced that the demons and archdevils he calls upon are external entities. He is unaware that in doing so, he is separating himself from the true source of magic, his ego, by maintaining it in a divided state.
The Satanist calls upon the same demons and devils but understand them as aspects of his ego, his SU. He understands his ego is not just a limited personality but a complex universe of limitless potential.
I remember when I was a naive youth and believed that GM only occurred in the Ritual Chamber or when I desired it to. Now, I see my life as GM. GM served to illustrate the hidden reality that is available to us at every moment. I now see the Ritual Chamber as a sacred place where I celebrate all that I am.
I wonder just how much GM can alter our understanding of ourselves.

What impact if any, has Greater Magic had on your understanding of your ego/psyche?
Do you now see yourself and the world around you in a different way than you did prior to practicing GM?

Duende
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seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42063 - 08/19/10 01:32 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
What impact if any, has Greater Magic had on your understanding of your ego/psyche?
Do you now see yourself and the world around you in a different way than you did prior to practicing GM?

1) None
2) No.

The only thing which you can describe as an effect or use of GM is that I'm fairly gifted to speak towards crowds. How did I achieve and became better at that skill -> practice before small audiences and mental exploration and study.

Can we now please get back in describing reality in normal human terms or are we going to continue to describe it in special and vague word constructs?
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#42090 - 08/19/10 09:26 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dimitri]
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
Well for me, Greater Magic or more personally internal Magic, has aided in self-reflection. For an example, I meditate upon myself and a trait I would wish to recognize and change. Then by utilizing an archetype I put myself in tune with the attributes to cause internal change. I have expaned this working in my personal rituals by bringing a broader aproach to mythology. I've been utilizing Slavic mythology recently, with Chernobog (Tchort) and Morena.
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#42329 - 08/24/10 12:06 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dimitri]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1139
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Can we now please get back in describing reality in normal human terms or are we going to continue to describe it in special and vague word constructs?


Seriously? This is a forum based on Satanism and drawing mostly from LaVey's works, including the Satanic Bible, which mentions Greater Magic, Ritual Chamber, etc. If you don't find these concepts interesting or worthy of discussion, OK. Not every Satanist feels the need to do the whole "ritual" aspect, and that's fine, but it's a recognized and common aspect of Satanism so there's no need to go around knocking those who do. If someone gets a little too caught up in it, yeah, give him a hard time. But Duende here seems to have a solid grip on what's real and what's not, and clearly sees rituals as a psychological tool.

Besides, if you're really that uninterested in the topic, maybe you should have stayed out of a thread with "Greater Magic" in the title or the forum specifically marked "The Occult."
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#42332 - 08/24/10 12:59 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Ouch, Xiao just metaphorically hit Dimitri in the nuts with a baseball bat. She makes a good point though.

I can't say that the practice of GM has changed my understanding of my ego, as I was working to understand that before even claiming Satanism. I do see myself and the world around me differently, but isn't that exactly what GM is suppose to do anyway? I have more confidence, and the world has changed from a Hell I must endure to a Hell of my dominion.

It is better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven.
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42341 - 08/24/10 03:17 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
This is a forum based on Satanism and drawing mostly from LaVey's works, including the Satanic Bible, which mentions Greater Magic, Ritual Chamber, etc. If you don't find these concepts interesting or worthy of discussion, OK.

Never said that discussing these concepts is a no-can-do, but using terms such as SU and OU and many others in other topics because you think they sound more "catchy" then the plain terms, which are far more effective and less vague, is but an indication of your weak mind and craving for "something" beyond. It also shows the fact you are but an ignorant bitch who likes to play with words to hide your real ignorance.

Get a grip on life and fuck off?
I have no need for your posturing nor hollow words and fairy-view of life.
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#42342 - 08/24/10 06:53 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dimitri]
TV is God Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
Yeesh, the gloves sure came off there didn't they?

Dimitri, I think you do have a point about philosophical terms being over-mystified. I understand the annoyance of people stretching and twisting meanings of the logical into the illogical. I would agree that if the standard were more direct there'd be less misinterpretation but I'd also have to agree with XiaoGui's point about accepting that it is the standard.

I don't think using the less direct terms necessarily is a sign of a crave for mysticism (and even when it is some people just crave that mysticism. Some like to dramatize logic. I don't see any problem with it as long as they actually mean the logic behind it.) The fact is, for better or for worse, the mystified terms are the standard.

It seems to me that the language in LaVey's writing was meant to mislead and confuse those that weren't willing to understand actual meanings. To confuse those that didn't really want to get it. But more so I think it was because it's just plain more fun. And between intelligent people this fun shouldn't get in the way of debate.

Whatever your opinion is on the terms you have to accept that there are certain standards of communication that it's more effective to just go with than fight even if you feel they're misleading. I understand we're all sick of fights over semantics but you have to see that this is just one more fight over words and not meanings.

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#42343 - 08/24/10 07:43 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: TV is God]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Yeesh, the gloves sure came off there didn't they?
In comparisation with other people, I at least dare to speak my mind disregarding possible consequences. And I was never and will never be afraid to get my hands dirty.

 Quote:
I would agree that if the standard were more direct there'd be less misinterpretation but I'd also have to agree with XiaoGui's point about accepting that it is the standard.

And yet I say it is not the standard. It has been some time now that I'm very annoyed with the unthoughtfull use of terms and concepts such as SU, OU, GBM, GM, LM and many others. I have noticed people are tempted to forget that GM and LM are but terms to describe many different actions (notice the plural!). A question such as "How has GM changed you" is a question which can only arise from a lack of understanding what these terms really are. He (and many others) assumes or has made the assumption it can be described as 1 action. That GM is something like "doing a ritual" with many different setups and colors. Guess what, my speeching comment was sarcastic. GM is but a term to describe actions a person undertakes who have an influence on his self and/or great amounts of people. It's even so that GM doesn't exist. GM is but an interpretation with the knowledge of a "why?" of actions. Everything can be called GM as long as you manage to give the right twist around it.

An example: I teach 1st graders philosophy and share my ideas about certain philosophical stances. What I do is teaching. But it can also be called GM because I'm also sharing my views and somewhat influencing my pupils.

Same goes for events where I speak to masses during a protest, convince my friends or other people to get something done and many other cases which can be labeled as GM.
Instead of calling these things GM I prefer to call them in real world terms for what they truly are: speeching, voicing opinions, manipulation, teaching, etc etc..
It's straight-forward, describes what has been done and gives a way better feedback to see if someone actually is "the big deal". Terms such as GM, GBM, LM, LBM, OU, SU, and many others which are being used too often during discussion only covers up the fact that a person is a fucking retard, an ignorant bitch and someone with an over-inflated ego without depth. It only indicates that the person somehow wants to feel special over a trivial fact which can be called GM or LM. I really double-dare anyone here in telling and describing events and undertaken actions without themselves referring of "use of GM or use of LM". I'm quite sure that only a handfull will manage to tell something worthwhile and me being impressed.

If you choose those vague concepts as a standard then I may have very bad news to tell you..

 Quote:
Whatever your opinion is on the terms you have to accept that there are certain standards of communication that it's more effective to just go with than fight even if you feel they're misleading.

As said before, I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty and will not stop before I managed to make a change or adressed the situation. I simply refuse to let things "flow their way" if they are full of BS.

The issue I'm adressing here would be one of cutting the bullshit and start comming down from you puffycloud. If you want to be seen as "the real deal", make at least sure your life is worthwhile without spicing it up with "mystic" sounding terms. You are not more Satanic or "elite" or interesting and intelligent by the use of such terms. I like to compare it to the scene wherein gothics get in a fight over "who is the most gothic" based on the records they own and kind of make-up they wear.

Take a look at occultism, how many people interested in the occult would be impressive if you adress and change their mystic concepts towards real-world terms? Almost everyone in reality has barely an influence or an impressive life behind them. Rip off the mystic terms and concepts of the pope, what is he? Just a man dressed up as a penguin whose intellectual level and life can be described as "dull and retarded". Take a look at Gilmore, what would he be without his self-claimed title of high-priest? He is at the same level as Blackwood, with the sole difference he has better writing and speaking skills and inherited an organisation..


Edited by Dimitri (08/24/10 08:22 AM)
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#42345 - 08/24/10 08:18 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dimitri]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I have to agree with Dimitri, if stuff is just full of bullshit, its full of bullshit.

Using terms because they make you feel special or deep when they are just fucking unnecessary is bullshit posturing.

"I understand the annoyance of people stretching and twisting meanings of the logical into the illogical.....Whatever your opinion is on the terms you have to accept that there are certain standards of communication that it's more effective to just go with than fight even if you feel they're misleading. I understand we're all sick of fights over semantics but you have to see that this is just one more fight over words and not meanings."

So to you, it is better to accept something illogical than take a stand for common sense?

In a general reply....
Words have meanings, that is what dictionaries are for. I am just kinda sick and annoyed by people playing at word games, and using words that don't mean or have anything to do with the subject. Using words without really knowing what the fuck they mean. It's not smart or mystical to use the wrong word or try to twist your view of a word into something its not. It just makes you look dumb.

If you are going to discuss the effects of the things you do, then take responsibility for them and call them as they are in the real world. We all live in the real world and are hopefully not just sitting in a room mentally jerking off online because we have no life.

"Instead of calling these things GM I prefer to call them in real world terms for what they truly are: speeching (giving speeches), voicing opinions, manipulation, teaching, etc etc..
It's straight-forward, describes what has been done and gives a way better feedback to see if someone actually is "the big deal". Terms such as GM, GBM, LM, LBM, OU, SU, and many others which are being used too often during discussion only covers up the fact that a person is a fucking retard, ..."

I think that pretty much covers it.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#42348 - 08/24/10 11:48 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Morgan]
TV is God Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
So to you, it is better to accept something illogical than take a stand for common sense?

That's not what I meant at all. I'm saying it doesn't take too long to realize who's using the terms for their logical intended meaning and who's not. I don't think it is illogical to use such terms if used correctly. It's not always bullshit.

If you say OU/SU I hear the same thing as "That which is real/That which is perceived." Same with mystics, they will hear the same too. You can say "pothole" and it'll still sound like "vortex" to them. Those seeking fantasy see it in everything no matter how plain and direct you want to say it.

That being said I personally don't use dramatic terms. I've never bought to much into calling anything "magic." I use plain direct terms to intentionally reflect my grounding in the real world. I will say OU/SU because I don't think they are dramatic puffed up terms and I think the use of "universe" implies a useful context to how they're used.

Points matter, words don't.

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#42350 - 08/24/10 12:42 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: TV is God]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Points matter, words don't.

Example:
"And by the extensive use of Greater magic I managed to gather a fortune".
What can Greater magic mean?

1)
"And by killing a whole village for the oil recources under their feet I managed to gather a fortune".

2) "And by the extensive use of my oral skills I managed to gather a fortune".

3) "And by the extensive use of slaves I managed to gather a fortune".

Lame examples, but it somehow should get the point across that words DO matter. "I have many followers, at least a thousand heads". And if in reality it is but a few hundred. If in science the correct words and explanations aren't used disaster CAN follow. If politicians don't pick out the right words they don't get elected and/or their descisions may loose credibility or simply have no effect.
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#42351 - 08/24/10 01:27 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dimitri]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
Let me chime in on this for just this time.

Terms like SU and OU have been found useful by many Satanists who choose to apply magic in their lives. While they were originally coined by Dr.Aquino (and Dale Seago?) if I am not mistaken, they have had their affect on the greater Satanic aesthetic over time, to the degree where even Peter Gilmore now uses them (including within _The Satanic Scriptures_).
You may have no use for such concepts for your own formulation of magic in your life and that is fine.

I have and will continue to initiate new threads concerning various aspects of Greater Magic, as many Satanists desire to investigate these matters further.

Interestingly, while these threads are specifically on the Occult boardto avoid confusion on the subject matter as well as those who have no interest in it, there are a few who are frightened when they encounter ideas that may not mirror their own.

There are nearly four thousand registered users on the 600 Club. Six or seven are no majority.

Dimriti and his tiny band of "usual suspects" who typically spew vitriol at those whose perspectives and interests do not mirror their own, should just be understood to not be responsible for their actions on this board; they should be treated as flakes upon your shoulder which are to be dusted off.
This insignificant handful of users do not represent the majority of Satanists.

Perhaps one day in the future, they will mature into intelligent adults but for now, do not give them a second of your valuable time by responding to their taunts.
They need you to respond to feel important and justified.
Do not give them the satisfaction.
Do not feed the trolls. ;\)

I anticipate future intelligent responses on the subject of this thread.
How has Greater Magic changed the way you see yourself?
_________________________
seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42352 - 08/24/10 01:47 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Terms like SU and OU have been found useful by many Satanists who choose to apply magic in their lives. While they were originally coined by Dr.Aquino (and Dale Seago?) if I am not mistaken, they have had their affect on the greater Satanic aesthetic over time, to the degree where even Peter Gilmore now uses them (including within _The Satanic Scriptures_).
You may have no use for such concepts for your own formulation of magic in your life and that is fine.

1 answer: Monkey like, monkey do.
Btw: who is Aquino? (Rhetorical question). It's not because YOU think, and others, it suits their needs and contributes a bit towards their nearly empty vocabulary that I should use them or not adress the stupid rants they are used in when people like you are trying to look good.

 Quote:
Interestingly, while these threads are specifically on the Occult boardto avoid confusion on the subject matter as well as those who have no interest in it, there are a few who are frightened when they encounter ideas that may not mirror their own.

Most occult knowledge in its most purest form is hardly described in metaphores or mystic concepts. Its only the stupid people who will try and put it in a "catchy" uncomfortable jacket. Take a look at Jake here. As far as I know he never referred his acts and accomplishments as a result of "magic" despite some might be described to have been reached by the extensive use of it. I hold him in the highest regards for that attitude. I would even think the label of "Satanist" suits him more then anyone in the entire CoS from both past and present.

Your subtle claim here of "there are a few who are frightened when they encounter ideas that may not mirror their own " is wrong since I'm still standing and am actually stating and voicing my opinion while you prefer to cowardly pose from your cellar deep down the ground.

 Quote:
Dimriti and his tiny band of "usual suspects" who typically spew vitriol at those whose perspectives and interests do not mirror their own, should just be understood to not be responsible for their actions on this board; they should be treated as flakes upon your shoulder which are to be dusted off.

I've been here for quite some time, unlike you, in that time I have seen many come and go. The fact I'm still present, altough having had a few bumps in the road at the beginning, means I have proven myself worthy enough intelligent debate and contribution. You sir, still have a lot of time to proof yourself.

 Quote:
This insignificant handful of users do not represent the majority of Satanists.

And for who do you speak? It only confirms to me you are but a black sheep. Go and hug your fellow black sheeps in the flock you are trying to distanciate from.




Edited by Dimitri (08/24/10 01:51 PM)
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#42369 - 08/24/10 08:45 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"Dimriti and his tiny band of "usual suspects" who typically spew vitriol at those whose perspectives and interests do not mirror their own,.........."


Fuck you Newbie, you have no fucking clue about the people that you talk about, or the context for use of words. Now go pull your head out of your ass.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#42373 - 08/24/10 09:23 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3888
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
ROFL

You are new here, and have contributed nothing aside from a few patently simplistic and undeveloped ideas about greater magic. GM is a drop in the bucket on the subject of Satanism. Do you have anything else?

Frankly, that you feel like you are in a position to be talking down to people that have been here for years and earned their stripes, given your pathetically poor contributions up till now, reeks of both utter stupidity and rampant pretentiousness.

You are NOT a bigshot. Now cut the crap and contribute something of worth, of get lost.
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#42374 - 08/24/10 09:31 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dan_Dread]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
Duende's unfortunate generalization about certain members occurred just I was about to respond to the original post.
I'd like to know exactly what you meant by "Greater Magic" here? I don't want to attempt a response without understanding the question.
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"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#42383 - 08/24/10 11:12 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: felixgarnet]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
A lot has been said, so this response is going to be a general reply to what I've seen.

Duende has been on thin ice since his appearance here. He doesn't seem interested in discussion, but to promote his own ideas. A lot of what he has said seems to me to be mostly empty bullshit he is unable to back up. However, I think despite this that the question he had presented at the beginning of this thread can be quite interesting.

Dimitri has stated that the question itself shows a misunderstanding of the term "Greater Magic." He then goes on to show his own misunderstanding of the term by giving an example of what definitely is not GM and calling it GM (I'm talking about the teaching example, that's clearly LM by definition). I agree with him that GM is not a single action, but a term used to describe a set of many different actions. Yet you can read the question understanding GM in that way and it still makes perfect sense. Duende might be full of shit, but the question is still valid.

The question as to why plain language is not used in these discussions has been brought up. This is where I think some simply don't get it. I can't speak for everyone, but the reason I use "magical" terms is that I do not want everyone to completely understand. It has nothing to do with wanting to feel special or anything like that. I am simply selfish and don't want everything I say to be understood by all people. I use the terms to express and discuss ideas with a very small subset of the population. I want the terms to seem vague, even if they're quite specific concepts. I see no reason to allow my knowledge that I've worked for to simply be given out to anyone. I also find them more aesthetically pleasing, but that's just an added bonus as I'm concerned.

Unfortunately, the same quality of these terms that make certain concepts inaccessible to outsiders also allows people to spit out a lot of illogical nonsense that only sounds good. Yet those that actually understand the terms and the concepts behind them are not going to be bought in by it.

It is very simple, if you refuse to try to learn and understand the terms, that is fine, but I'm not going to talk in "plain" language for everyone to understand just because you don't like it. If you have taken the time and you completely misunderstand them, I'm simply going to write you off as an idiot and pay you no more attention.

I really couldn't care less about what anyone thinks about my use of these terms, or their perceptions of me because of it, as long as they're still useful to me. If they stopped being useful, I'd stop using them.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42386 - 08/24/10 11:54 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: felixgarnet]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: felixgarnet
Duende's unfortunate generalization about certain members occurred just I was about to respond to the original post.
I'd like to know exactly what you meant by "Greater Magic" here? I don't want to attempt a response without understanding the question.


Sure Felix.
Within _The Satanic Bible_, Dr.LaVey defines magic as "The change in situations or events in accordance with one's will, which would, using normally accepted methods, be unchangeable."

In regards to GM specifically, Dr.LaVey writes,"Ritual magic consists of the performance of a formal ceremony, taking place, at least in part, within the confines of an area set aside to isolate the otherwise dissipated adrenal and other emotionally induced energy, and convert it into a dynamically transmittable force. It is purely an emotional, rather than intellectual, act. Any and all intellectual activity must take place before the ceremony, not during it. This type of magic is sometimes known as 'Greater Magic.'"

For some Satanists, it seems GM over time has a cumulative effect, in which the way the self and the world are interpreted by the intellect are permanently changed, to a greater or lesser degree.

How has Greater Magic changed your perception of yourself? \:\)
_________________________
seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42389 - 08/25/10 12:16 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: felixgarnet]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I just wanted to add my own two cents here as I am one of those members who has been using abbreviations such as GM, LM, SU, OU etc. to talk about a quite complex phenomenon.

I speak for myself here only and am presenting my own point of view. I am not interested in dictating terms to Familiars or other long term respected members in this place.

I have had success with Satanic magical rituals and by that I mean I performed ritual with a specific purpose in mind and I achieved the outcome I wanted to bring into being as a result of the ritual I performed.

This state of affairs does not take place every time I perform a ritual, but it happened enough times to make me ask the following question: how the fuck does this ritual magic work?

I am fairly new to this and I am not an expert, so it seemed natural to me that I should seek advice from the guys who know a thing or two, as a way of getting started in my studies and reflections.

I found four definitions of Greater Magic by four people whom I respected and started from there. Those definitions were provided by Dr. LaVey, Dr. Aquino, CoS High Priest Gilmore and Magister Nemo.

My thinking lately has been focused on Dr. Aquino’s definition as I felt that it held a powerful truth to it. I still feel it holds a powerful truth to it. I may have misunderstood or misinterpreted that definition, but the thoughts which I expressed in other threads regarding this particular definition were sincere.

Abbreviations such as SU, OU, GM, LM, GBM, LBM and what they signify can be quite useful I think. They at least provide me with a useful framework for thinking about a very complex process, or possibly an aspect of something much larger.

Using these abbreviations may appear pretentious, but I am so wrapped up in the learning here; I am so focused on getting the knowledge or gaining some insight; of understanding what is happening, that posing or bullshitting is just irrelevant and just doesn’t enter my head until someone else points it out.

Focusing on Dr. Aquino’s definition does not mean I am somehow rejecting other definitions, particularly the other three I have found by LaVey, Gilmore and Nemo. I very much appreciate any point of view on magic provided by Familiars and experienced members, such as Jake, who can provide authoritative insights into his own and LaVey’s thinking as well.

This study is a work in progress and is just one aspect of Satanism which I am interested in. For instance I have had a chance to briefly converse with Nemo regarding his definition of Greater Magic. He has kindly presented me with the start of a reading trail which may challenge the way I view reality itself. At this stage I just haven’t had a chance to start that line of study and research, but I am looking forward to it.

Anyway to each their own, according to their needs.

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#42390 - 08/25/10 12:32 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
However, I think despite this that the question he had presented at the beginning of this thread can be quite interesting.


Yes! Yes! Let's get back to the question that is the subject of this thread!!!
_________________________
seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42397 - 08/25/10 02:30 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
He then goes on to show his own misunderstanding of the term by giving an example of what definitely is not GM and calling it GM (I'm talking about the teaching example, that's clearly LM by definition).

As following the definition from the SB (since you and others are more comfortable with it) about GM, teaching still can be seen as an act of GM and can fully be described as such. Look up the definition and try imagining yourself in front of a class.

 Quote:
I can't speak for everyone, but the reason I use "magical" terms is that I do not want everyone to completely understand.

Logical fallacy detected! You prefer to use terms because you don't want everyone to completely understand you. In a place where other persons know of the definitions of these words and thus will understand your position. What's the use? It's better to get back to the basics, after all you have nothing special to hide.

And perhaps the biggest fallacy:
You don't want to be completely understood while you are voicing your opinion and points of view, yet somehow want to have some credit or respect for the things you say? That's fucked up... I always thought during discussion and debate that all points should be shared in a clear and understanding way to evade problems and a possible halt to the debate. Your remark here only shows you simply can't discuss properly.
If you want people to not understand/know your point of view then simply shut-up about it..

 Quote:
It is very simple, if you refuse to try to learn and understand the terms, that is fine, but I'm not going to talk in "plain" language for everyone to understand just because you don't like it.

Oh no, that's not the case. You are only self-delusioned when I read the quoted parts. And I'm also bloody sure many others are in the same situation.


Edited by Dimitri (08/25/10 02:36 AM)
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#42398 - 08/25/10 03:29 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dimitri]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Greater Magic: Directing and focusing your energy to a goal through some sort of ritual or ceremony.

While you may be doing this while teaching, teaching itself is influencing others, which is Lesser Magic.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Logical fallacy detected! You prefer to use terms because you don't want everyone to completely understand you. In a place where other persons know of the definitions of these words and thus will understand your position. What's the use?

No logical fallacy here. I don't want any dipshit that comes through here to understand everything I say in regards to magic. The people that do understand what I'm saying are the people I am talking to. If I were to speak Latin, I'd be talking only to the people that understood Latin. It is not that I don't want anyone to understand, I only want people of a certain group to understand. In this case, fellow Satanists. Your accusation that I cannot discuss properly is unfounded. I am quite clear to people that understand the language I am speaking. If you understand what I'm saying, then shut the fuck up about the particular type of language I use and go with it instead of being a whiny little bitch about it.

As far as you saying I'm self-delusioned, I can only guess that you took the remark you quoted from me as specifically directed toward you. It was a comment made concerning people in general. I'm sure you have at least some rudimentary understanding, even though I've found your comprehension skills lacking in many of your posts.

Personally, I think you just want things in "plain human language" because you lack the ability to understand without it being spoon fed to you.
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42399 - 08/25/10 04:02 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
No logical fallacy here. I don't want any dipshit that comes through here to understand everything I say in regards to magic. The people that do understand what I'm saying are the people I am talking to. If I were to speak Latin, I'd be talking only to the people that understood Latin. It is not that I don't want anyone to understand, I only want people of a certain group to understand. In this case, fellow Satanists. Your accusation that I cannot discuss properly is unfounded. I am quite clear to people that understand the language I am speaking. If you understand what I'm saying, then shut the fuck up about the particular type of language I use and go with it instead of being a whiny little bitch about it.

So, only want to be understood by a certain group of people? I think that talking plain and normal language during discussion of topics related towards Satanism, or the ocuult, is as clear when the use of vague terms and concepts is used. The person who doesn't know what it is you are talking about will still not get it if you toss aside the mysticism. The Satanic philosophy is about "getting it", most of the philosophy cannot be written down or described by any vague terms or even plain rational language. And once again I make the statement: What special do you have to hide for wanting to only be understood by a select group?
I think you only want to feel special. Just as the others who are using terms such as magic once to often. Guess what, if you have something to hide and don't want to be understood by a random dipshit SHUT UP ABOUT IT! I only see your response as a pointless defense for imagined "elitism". Take a look at yourself, you are at the same level as the dipshit you want to distantiate from. The use of exotic words don't make you more valuable, it only paints your wool in the color you want it.

 Quote:
If you understand what I'm saying, then shut the fuck up about the particular type of language I use and go with it instead of being a whiny little bitch about it.

I understand what you are saying, and no I'm not letting you off that easily with "just go with the flow". I'm not a sheep who buys everything which is presented on a silver plate or a person who admires or worships old religious constructs if they are based on pure ignorance and emotional likings.

 Quote:
Personally, I think you just want things in "plain human language" because you lack the ability to understand without it being spoon fed to you

Whatever you like to think, I'm simply fed up with the sheepish attitude which is becomming too obvious amongst the newbs here. Too many here should have been kicked out long time ago for their obvious stupidity and empty posturing. I don't buy the shit the new members post in their introduction treads, a reason why I hardly say hello there, 1 out of 20 actually is the gem as they described themselves. The majority are of the likes of you, barely worth mentioning.
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#42401 - 08/25/10 05:14 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dimitri]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Dimitri,

If you understand what I'm saying when I use the terms in question, what is the big deal then? So far all I've heard is that you don't think it is clear enough. I have seemed to be plenty clear for most people in my posts.

I am elitist. So what? Just about everyone here is elitist. I am better than the sheep out there in the world and proud of it. This one of the few places I've found where there are actually people I can view as being at or above where I am currently. These are people I can give great respect. You're not one of those people. I've seen nothing of value come from you. I've mostly seen you mock others, and you usually do a poor job at it.

Magic has helped me and I'd rather keep a lot of those things within a community of people I think are actually worth having a discussion and sharing knowledge with. I don't want to see some random slob use that knowledge, they haven't worked for it. I'm not going to be a one stop shop for helpful tricks for anybody to come and learn. I'm not in the teaching business. I'm going to continue to use the terms and I really don't care if you like it or not. You're nothing but an arrogant prick, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to think that about you.

I think it is you that has to feel important. You want to feel superior. You've been here longer and I'm fairly new. You're so much more rational than I am because you don't use terms that seem vague to you. They aren't vague to me, and if you can understand them they aren't vague to you either. You've decided to make a scene by challenging the use of terms that most here if not use at least understand. All so you could find somebody you think you can beat up on and feel superior to. Well fuck off. I'm not one of these newbs that come in here thinking they know it all and are going to teach all of you a thing or two. I know I don't know it all, but I didn't come here completely ignorant either. I'm not somebody you can just push around to feel better about yourself.

Now I'm done with this if all you can do is call me a sheep for speaking in terms everyone here should be able to understand. I don't expect you to just buy into anything, but if you understand what I'm saying, then you have no reason to whine about it like you do. You said yourself everyone here understands the terms, so what's your problem? Why don't you admit that you simply don't like it and stop acting like two year old that doesn't get their way. I'm not telling you that you have to use the terms yourself. I couldn't care less.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42402 - 08/25/10 05:56 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
I am elitist. So what? Just about everyone here is elitist. I am better than the sheep out there in the world and proud of it. This one of the few places I've found where there are actually people I can view as being at or above where I am currently. These are people I can give great respect.

WRONG, you are not an elitist but simply a person who THINKS he is an elitist. Any person here is but what he is, all of their opinions are equally valid as mine, yours of others. You only belief in being an elitist and think you act as one. If you truly were an elitist, where is your big pay check? Where is your respect by people in the world earned trough your skills? What is your position on the social ladder? You are but an average person who found like-minded people by sharing a same view of life. You are in no way high above me or anyone else. The truth hurts, but you are but another number, another unnoticed and unknown person in society. Deal with it unless you want to continue to live in your fantasy.

 Quote:
I've seen nothing of value come from you. I've mostly seen you mock others, and you usually do a poor job at it.

I mock people with the subtle intention of bursting their bubble and showing (or at least try to) them what they really are. Yes, it is said that a Satanist considers himself as the highest good in this/his world, but if you can't fucking make a change or act and BE as such then why the fuck do you put on the label?

 Quote:
I don't want to see some random slob use that knowledge, they haven't worked for it.

You are but a parasite yourself, the things you know and learned came from other people who probably saw you as a random slob also. That's reality.

 Quote:
You've decided to make a scene by challenging the use of terms that most here if not use at least understand. All so you could find somebody you think you can beat up on and feel superior to. Well fuck off. I'm not one of these newbs that come in here thinking they know it all and are going to teach all of you a thing or two. I know I don't know it all, but I didn't come here completely ignorant either. I'm not somebody you can just push around to feel better about yourself.

You are just my little puppet for the moment, at least untill another person would like to take your place. Yes I challenge you since you provide me the necessary answers and enforce my statements.
 Quote:
You're nothing but an arrogant prick, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to think that about you.

Correction: an arrogant prick with a lesson to teach and point out hurtfull ignorance.

Elitism is so much overrated.. perhaps the sentence "exotic words don't make you more valuable" didn't really get trough you.
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#42407 - 08/25/10 10:13 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dimitri]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
First off, I'd like to thank you for participating in my little game. I've been pulling your strings as well. I've been studying you Dimitri. I've wanted to get into a heated discussion with you before I had to leave to see what you're really made of. No real fun in watching you bash complete fools. Was easy enough to ruffle your feathers a little and draw you in. You've gained some of my respect through this conversation. You're a bit more capable than I gave you credit for. A few things I want to make clear, however.

 Quote:
Any person here is but what he is, all of their opinions are equally valid as mine, yours of others.

There is no way you actually believe that. No two people's opinion are equally valid on any subject. I'm not going to a historian when I'm sick; I'm going to a doctor. Some people's opinions matter more than others in certain subjects. Some people are just stupid and their opinion doesn't matter at all.

 Quote:
If you truly were an elitist, where is your big pay check? Where is your respect by people in the world earned trough your skills? What is your position on the social ladder?

Well as you know I am fairly young, and I've squandered certain opportunities in the past which have kept me behind. I don't have a big pay check yet, but in a couple months I should have two big pay checks thanks to connections I have made. At school, I have gained the respect of my fellow students, my professors, and much of the administration through my skills and knowledge. I am top of my class, and I often speak with my professors about topics far more advanced than they had ever expected from a student in their first quarter. I also have my pick of the hottest (single) women that attend the college. All this and I just started school a couple months ago. I think I'm doing pretty well all things considered.

 Quote:
You are but an average person...

You may be the first person I've ever met to actually call me "average."

 Quote:
You are but a parasite yourself, the things you know and learned came from other people who probably saw you as a random slob also. That's reality.

This is true, but those people shared their knowledge willingly to the masses. That doesn't mean I have to do the same.

 Quote:
Elitism is so much overrated.. perhaps the sentence "exotic words don't make you more valuable" didn't really get trough you.

I never claimed the exotic words made me more valuable. They merely serve their purpose. As I said earlier, if they stopped being useful, I'd stop using them.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42410 - 08/25/10 11:28 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
There is no way you actually believe that. No two people's opinion are equally valid on any subject. I'm not going to a historian when I'm sick; I'm going to a doctor. Some people's opinions matter more than others in certain subjects. Some people are just stupid and their opinion doesn't matter at all.

A historian may say you have a cold based on the knowledge he has, a docter also makes the same guess with the only difference of having studied symptoms of many different illnesses and probably doing a little investigation on your health. The difference is that the docter is making an educated guess in comparisition to the historian. And he has the power to subscribe the medication.

 Quote:
Some people's opinions matter more than others in certain subjects.

They don't matter more, only with reference and background a persons opinion is more likely to be at the right end. But the possibility he or she is wrong still stands.

 Quote:
At school, I have gained the respect of my fellow students, my professors, and much of the administration through my skills and knowledge. I am top of my class, and I often speak with my professors about topics far more advanced than they had ever expected from a student in their first quarter.

I heard such stories before and will probably continue to hear them. You'd be surprised how unspecial your situation in reality might be.

 Quote:
You may be the first person I've ever met to actually call me "average."

Some people are just way too polite for what they truly think.

 Quote:
This is true, but those people shared their knowledge willingly to the masses. That doesn't mean I have to do the same.

What's the use of being here then? It is an unspoken agreement upon entering a text-based conversation and discussion you are willfully sharing your knowledge to the masses. If you haven't noticed, any topic here can be searched for and found on the world wide web. Since the day you accepted the terms and agreements and signed up you willfully shared your takes and knowledge to the masses. Which brings me back to the issue: why the vague and delusional terms? If you feel something shouldn't be known or shared then simply shut up about it.

 Quote:
I also have my pick of the hottest (single) women that attend the college.

Looks rank second, I prefer to pick out the little gems with knowledge. The Satanic witches as you could describe them, which is probably the only reason why I'm single at the moment.


Edited by Dimitri (08/25/10 11:31 AM)
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#42417 - 08/25/10 12:14 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
In General:

Firstly, I'd like to go on record in support of typing OU instead of "Objective Universe" and so forth. To me it's simply an abbreviation and a welcome one at that as I'm no great typist.

Secondly, I hope you folks are done with your personal attacks on each other. It's tiresome in my opinion.

 Originally Posted By: Duende

I wonder just how much GM can alter our understanding of ourselves.


Since the beginnings of the big 3 abrahamic religions, there has been a concerted movement by them to lead folks away from ritual magic as a whole. Being that these religions control most of the earth's population in some way or another, it's no surprise that most people believe there's nothing to magic. In fact it's been packaged and sold to the masses as nothing more than sleight of hand and entertaining fancy (and old wives tales).

When I began to study magic, the real kind, it basically shook my very foundations because the implications of it are exceedingly far reaching. I'm not speaking of it strictly in terms of what magic is or isn't but also in terms of the context of how people understand it and misunderstand it. Truly, for me, it was like looking into the abyss because it came to me along with the realization that most of what was taught to me was not anchored in steady and unwavering foundation. It came to me with the realization that doubt would illuminate my path for me.

How has GM changed me? Not as much as the realization that there does seem to be something to it and the fact that it has worked in giving me desired results.

DOUBT is what has truly expanded my every horizon.
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Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#42440 - 08/25/10 02:48 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Dimitri, considering that you haven't brought up any point I haven't already explained to you, I think I'm done here. At this point you're starting to seem repetitive and plain stubborn. Go and claim victory if it makes you feel better. I don't really care. Everyone here knows you simply want to put somebody down to make yourself seem better, so you're only fooling yourself.

Pitiful really.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42441 - 08/25/10 03:00 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Lucifer Rising
Everyone here knows you simply want to put somebody down to make yourself seem better, so you're only fooling yourself.


Please don't presume to speak for the group.

If you have an issue with a particular poster then please refine your statements to reflect that. I doubt that you know what "everyone here" knows.

Thank you.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#42443 - 08/25/10 03:12 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
At this point you're starting to seem repetitive and plain stubborn

Since you never asnwered my questions properly and preferred to get into a circular argument it indeed seems repetitive. You prefer to take a step aside and remain in your comfortable cloud, fine. Perhaps your intellectual level isn't really ready to get what I'm aiming at and to see the fallacies in your own reasoning.
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#42447 - 08/25/10 03:51 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Brian Offline
lurker


Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 4
Well said Fnord.I agree that it is questioning all things that truly gives you the greater perspective.I too have seen incredible results in the magical rituals that I have performed.And lets face it in my opinion results are all that matters when it comes to any kind of magic.

I see from your profile that you have been around the ritual alter for awhile yourself.In my perspective magic is to help you become more than you already are,and to achieve godhood in human form.I believe the great secret that the world religions have been trying to keep from us is that we are gods who just haven't achieved godhood yet.When you wake up fully,you finally understand that we have that potential.Then it becomes a matter of strengthening your will by applying the principles of Greater Magic.
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#42449 - 08/25/10 03:52 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dimitri]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Fnord, you're right about that. I apologize.

Dimitri, I've answered your questions, you just didn't like the answers. I'm not about to explain myself to you because what you really want is for me to submit to your way of thinking. There are no fallacies in what I have said. I'd like to see you actually point out and name some if you can. You act like you're trying to teach something, when all you are trying to do is boost your own ego. I see right through your bullshit. I haven't side stepped anything, I'm just not repeating myself.

If you can actually show where there are fallacies, and they are truly fallacies, I will admit that I was mistaken. So go ahead. Show me where I went wrong and teach me something oh wise Dimitri.
_________________________
Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42453 - 08/25/10 04:19 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Brian]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Brian
In my perspective magic is to help you become more than you already are,and to achieve godhood in human form.


I would make the distinction that GM doesn't help you become more than you already are, but rather helps you to understand what you already are.
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#42454 - 08/25/10 04:26 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Brian Offline
lurker


Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 4
More valid point even still.
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#42456 - 08/25/10 04:34 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
 Originally Posted By: Brian
In my perspective magic is to help you become more than you already are,and to achieve godhood in human form.


I would make the distinction that GM doesn't help you become more than you already are, but rather helps you to understand what you already are.


Good point.
How does GM help you understand what you already are?
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seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42457 - 08/25/10 04:41 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
What, you want me to do ALL your homework for you? ;\)
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#42468 - 08/25/10 07:54 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
What, you want me to do ALL your homework for you? ;\)


Hardly. \:\)

I think the perceptual universe of each individual varies so greatly from one another, that beyond broad strokes of similarity, what specifically worked for you, will probably not work for someone else.
This I think is at the heart of Dr.LaVey's Combination Lock Principle. A certain notorious British gentleman once said that each man has to cut his own path through the jungle!
As you stated, Greater Magic can help you understand what you already are.
While some Satanists may not be interested in such an exploration, there are some who may be reading these words who were unaware this was possible, or recently became aware of it, and may find it meaningful and relevant.

While I would like to explore what the self is in a different thread, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that your statement implies that a transformation of awareness occurs, in which what you are is made explicitly known to you through Greater Magic. Not as some hollow spiritual pipe dream but as a strengthening of the awareness of the ego, in the here and now. This is not a supernatural effect, but a psychological one that may seem supernormal to some.

I think GM is a repeatable demonstration of how the ego naturally exists from moment to moment. It is an illustration of life in that you can participate in whenever you like, which beckons you to recognize yourself and whispers " This is what you are. Embrace it and revel in it, or reject it and remain forever asleep!"

Each GM Working is a potential glimpse of the symbolic Grail. You can be unaware of it's existence, or like Percival, not recognize it for what it is . At a certain point, you may become this Grail and notice that your ego is and has always been magic. At this point, there may be no more need to do ritual GM, as you will have an effect in situations just by entering them, and have symbolically become Satan yourself. And by Satan, I am not referring to a spiritual or physical devil with cloven hoofs( how sad that this needs clarification!), but the ideal model or prototype representing the majesty of the singular self aware ego that you are, and always were!

Within _The Satanic Bible_, Anton LaVey wrote the following,

"If man insists on externalizing his true self in the form of "God", then why fear his true self, in
fearing "God", - why praise his true self in praising "God", - why remain externalized from
"God" IN ORDER TO ENGAGE IN RITUAL AND RELIGIOUS CEREMONY IN HIS NAME?
Man needs ritual and dogma, but no law states that an externalized god is necessary in order
to engage in ritual and ceremony performed in a god's name! Could it be that when he closes
the gap between himself and his "God" he sees the demon of pride creeping forth - that very
embodiment of Lucifer appearing in his midst? He no longer can view himself in two parts,
the carnal and the spiritual, but sees them merge as one, and then to his abysmal horror,
discovers that they are only the carnal - AND ALWAYS WERE! Then he either hates himself to death,
day by day - or rejoices that he is what he is!
If he hates himself, he searches out new and more complex spiritual paths of "enlightenment"
in hopes that he may split himself up again in his quest for stronger and more externalized
"gods" to scourge his poor miserable shell. If he accepts himself, but recognizes that ritual and
ceremony are the important devices that his invented religions have utilized to sustain his
faith in a lie, then it is the SAME FORM OF RITUAL that will sustain his faith in the truth - the
primitive pageantry that will give his awareness of his own majestic being added substance."


How has Greater Magic changed the way you perceive yourself?
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seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42471 - 08/25/10 08:36 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
WEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLL now.... of course, taking this passage from The Satanic Bible might make it seem like LaVey is four-square into "something out there," and man trying to tap into it. Yea, this is the way to ENLIGHTENMENT... but those of us who've been around the block once or twice remember that there is a paragraph beyond this that reads,

"When all religious faith in lies has waned, it is because man has become closer to himself and farther from "God"; closer to the "Devil." If this is what the devil represents, and a man lives his life in the devil's fane, with the sinews of Satan moving in his flesh, then he either escapes from the cacklings and carpings of the righteous, or stands proudly in his secret places of the earth and manipulates the folly-ridden masses through his own Satanic might, until that day when he may come forth in splendor proclaiming "I AM A SATANIST! BOW DOWN, FOR I AM THE HIGHEST EMBODIMENT OF HUMAN LIFE!"

What LaVey was saying is that yes, man needs dogma and man needs ritual to a certain degree, and it is ok to satisfy those needs... the ritual chamber is called the Intellectual Decompression Chamber for a reason. It allows you to put aside the logic and knowing or life and allow oneself to ritually cleanse the mind... to go into a childlike state of suspended disbelief and emerge from that chamber having had his moment of catharsis. It's this knowledge, the idea that one must exorcise the "Monsters of the ID" in any way possible... ritual if need be... that can be the catalyst for change.

When one emerges from the Intellectual Decompression or the Ritual Chamber, life in still there. HOPEfully, one's excursion into the mind's constructed abstraction has given one a new way of looking at the problem at hand... or at least impetus to get off the pot.
_________________________
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#42479 - 08/25/10 10:14 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"...in which what you are is made explicitly known to you through Greater Magic. Not as some hollow spiritual pipe dream but as a strengthening of the awareness of the ego, in the here and now."

It is not necessary to do any ritual magic in order to come to terms with who you are inside. If you feel the need to do such an act to find yourself then fine, but it is not necessary for everyone.

All the Greater Magic, lesser magic, any type of ritual or rite working mean nothing, if you do not have the TRUE INNER WILL to accomplish your goals in the real world.

You must strengthen your internal Force of Will to succeed or you are just jerking off into mental masturbation. Most people just jerk off and can't make it work in the real world.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#42497 - 08/26/10 07:25 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Dimitri, I've answered your questions, you just didn't like the answers. I'm not about to explain myself to you because what you really want is for me to submit to your way of thinking. There are no fallacies in what I have said. I'd like to see you actually point out and name some if you can. You act like you're trying to teach something, when all you are trying to do is boost your own ego. I see right through your bullshit. I haven't side stepped anything, I'm just not repeating myself.

No you did not respond, you simply rehearsed your opinions and thought of it as a good answer.
I have already indicated fallacies in your posts, read them again. I'm taking a step aside since it is futile to teach a blind person to see the world.

Let me rehearse once again,
 Quote:
I can't speak for everyone, but the reason I use "magical" terms is that I do not want everyone to completely understand.

To which I answered that someone will automatically not understand, even in plain language, if they lack the background information and simply didn't get it.
I continued to ask you why you would even use such special terms during discussion or non-related subjects. Is or was there something special you have to hide? A dark secret no one may ever know? (Never responded to this one, I even think you consiously ignored it since you felt you were wrong somewhere and didn't like to be put down).
Elaborating on your possible answer "I don't want an idiot to understand what I'm saying" is a circular argument which already has been adressed in the beginning of this paragraph.

I could only conclude you wanted to feel special and "be part of a Satanic community". Later on you continued to try to give it a twist by calling yourself an elitist and possible events with which you thought that would be impressive (and failed quite badly). Then came the comments of "pitifull", etc etc...

Really who is the idiot here?

The ritual chamber and the reality outside are 2 seperate entities. Leave your pot in the ritual chamber and try to come out with a reasonable and good-working mind which is not based on vague and mystic abstractions keen on fantasy.


Edited by Dimitri (08/26/10 08:01 AM)
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#42500 - 08/26/10 10:17 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Morgan]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Morgan

It is not necessary to do any ritual magic in order to come to terms with who you are inside.


Hi Morgan,

I didn't mean to suggest anything quite so esoteric in my earlier response.

I'll break it down a bit so I'm not misunderstood.

I have a lot of noise in my life. I have teenagers in the house, a 9 to 5 which is really more like a 7 to 6, an established business that's now finally consistently in the black and a new(ish) business venture that I'm trying to get off the ground.

When I said this:
"I would make the distinction that GM doesn't help you become more than you already are, but rather helps you to understand what you already are."

I meant it in the context of my life. GM or ritual isn't going to make me more than I am. It does, for me, give me some time to turn off the noise and focus my attention and energy inward. I perceive my subconscious (and my SU) as a sort of processor that works in the background. Anecdotally, I've told my son on many occasions that if he's frustrated with a problem he should, with will, put it aside for a while until an answer comes to him. I've solved many a problem by dreaming about it which is how my subconscious informs me that it's done figuring something out.

It is in this way that I meant that ritual can help one to understand oneself. It is a focused and deliberate effort to bring that which is outward to the inside to attempt to effect change. In doing so, it works as a sort of mirror for me because it shows me that I am capable of solving larger problems than I had previously given myself credit for which does, in turn effect the world around me.

I have also effected change via ritual magic that is more in line with Jake's definition of it... but that's another thread entirely.
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#42515 - 08/26/10 10:48 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Lucifer Rising Offline
member


Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Dimitri, all you did was claim there was a logical fallacy, then continued to claim that it was circular reasoning. Speaking to Satanists using terms commonly known to Satanists is not circular reasoning. Not wanting outsiders in my business is a personal preference, so you can't claim logical fallacy on that either. You just don't know what you're talking about. Simply saying it is a logical fallacy doesn't make it so.

Even if you could actually show how any of this is circular reasoning, you would still have to show that it is weak. You might not know this, but not all circular reasoning is bad.

This is my last post in a while, so even if you respond I probably won't see it, at least for some time. I know it is too much to ask for you to stop thinking you're so high and mighty, and far more logical than everyone else. You seem to think you have it all figured out. You said I need a dose of reality. You need to take a good long look in the mirror.
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#42789 - 09/05/10 01:17 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucifer Rising]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Dimitri, all you did was claim there was a logical fallacy, then continued to claim that it was circular reasoning.

Circular reasoning most of the time implies a logical fallacy somewhere along the road. So, what does it even matter you are pointing the obvious out?

 Quote:
Speaking to Satanists using terms commonly known to Satanists is not circular reasoning. Not wanting outsiders in my business is a personal preference, so you can't claim logical fallacy on that either.

Reread the discussion, it has been some days ago. Perhaps you are now able to notice the stupidity of some of your statements I was pointing out. It is way different then what you seemingly think.

 Quote:
You might not know this, but not all circular reasoning is bad.

And you really believe that?

 Quote:
I know it is too much to ask for you to stop thinking you're so high and mighty, and far more logical than everyone else.

Not even going to try and proof I think I'm more high and mighty than everyone else.
Let me just keep it on: "Don't give me a reason to look down at you, you simply know I will and you'll end up having a sore neck for looking up."

 Quote:
You need to take a good long look in the mirror.

I am awesome and hot. High fuckability factor and such. If the mirror wasn't that cold and hard I'd make out with myself...
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#42852 - 09/07/10 03:48 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
 Originally Posted By: Morgan

It is not necessary to do any ritual magic in order to come to terms with who you are inside.


Hi Morgan,

I didn't mean to suggest anything quite so esoteric in my earlier response.

I'll break it down a bit so I'm not misunderstood.

I have a lot of noise in my life. I have teenagers in the house, a 9 to 5 which is really more like a 7 to 6, an established business that's now finally consistently in the black and a new(ish) business venture that I'm trying to get off the ground.

When I said this:
"I would make the distinction that GM doesn't help you become more than you already are, but rather helps you to understand what you already are."

I meant it in the context of my life. GM or ritual isn't going to make me more than I am. It does, for me, give me some time to turn off the noise and focus my attention and energy inward. I perceive my subconscious (and my SU) as a sort of processor that works in the background. Anecdotally, I've told my son on many occasions that if he's frustrated with a problem he should, with will, put it aside for a while until an answer comes to him. I've solved many a problem by dreaming about it which is how my subconscious informs me that it's done figuring something out.

It is in this way that I meant that ritual can help one to understand oneself. It is a focused and deliberate effort to bring that which is outward to the inside to attempt to effect change. In doing so, it works as a sort of mirror for me because it shows me that I am capable of solving larger problems than I had previously given myself credit for which does, in turn effect the world around me.

I have also effected change via ritual magic that is more in line with Jake's definition of it... but that's another thread entirely.




I enjoyed reading this response. I find I share the same view. I have found that through certain mental rituals or ritualized meditations that one can refine his focus on a goal at hand.

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#43327 - 09/29/10 03:28 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lamar]
Sinthesis Offline
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Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 40
Loc: various places in New Jersey
What percentage of the participants of this forum do you think breaks down into the following categories?

(1) Atheists/skeptics who scoff at "magic" and who do not value psychological exercises under the name of "magic" either

(2) Atheists/skeptics who see "magic" as a strictly a psychological exercise performed by material beings in a material universe, and do practice such exercises or advocate them, but with extreme awareness of their fundamentally mundane nature

(3) Theists or at least occultists who believe they are seriously summoning spirits or interacting with a different plane -- to me this is the only genuine and proper use of the word "magic"

(4) Infuriating word-benders who, after calling rituals "magic" for so long, now actually try to believe that they can move stuff with their minds, and are generally confused and trip over their words as they try to explain their doublethink



LaVey was frustratingly vague so I don't cite him as an authority on the issue of whether magic is literally magic or personal exercises.
While I respect Aquino for setting up a satanist group that isn't full of clowns and idiots, as far as I've heard, I am kind of disappointed that he defines magic as practices which alter the subjective universe and may (MAY) create a corresponding change in the objective universe.
What a fantastic way to get people going through the motions of doing rituals, first strictly for "self-improvement" purposes, and then over time deluding themselves with the hopes that a thousand hands folded in prayer will ever exceed the power of two hands at work. It's such a manipulative trick. It lets the person making the claim/setting the definition off the hook in case the practitioner never does succeed in moving stuff with their minds. At the same time this definition always leaves the hope of psychic powers (outside of their own body and mind) dangling in front of the practitioner.

I've seen rather frank admissions on this forum from the Doc that magic is basically a psychological exercise, and that the real changes in the outside world simply come from whatever confidence, self-consciousness or inspiration you gained from the exercises as you carry out your goals using practical mundane methods. Please stop calling this magic. It's not magic.

If humanity and world history are the sandbox in which we live our lives, then is not the highest art of change the art of politics, or perhaps economics? The art of re-organizing society to accomplish monumental changes? Of course all the related fields -- mass culture, etc. If you wish to go down a strictly individual road of changing your surroundings, then the highest arts would then instead be personal finances, applied psychology, various practical skills you could use to find employment, etc.

Of course we want to know exactly who we are, and what it is that we want, and to be certain that we really are acting from our self-most self as we go about making the changes in the world/our lives that we desire...
...but none of this is magical. Sorry. Let me know when you're literally summoning demons, or moving stuff directly with your mind, not using your body. Literally, not in some poetic sense. (But do let me know, I want in on it.)

Clarity.


Edited by Sinthesis (09/29/10 03:35 PM)
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make war against everything else

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#49337 - 02/22/11 12:02 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: TV is God]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
 Originally Posted By: TV is God
Yeesh, the gloves sure came off there didn't they?

Dimitri, I think you do have a point about philosophical terms being over-mystified. I understand the annoyance of people stretching and twisting meanings of the logical into the illogical. I would agree that if the standard were more direct there'd be less misinterpretation but I'd also have to agree with XiaoGui's point about accepting that it is the standard.

I don't think using the less direct terms necessarily is a sign of a crave for mysticism (and even when it is some people just crave that mysticism. Some like to dramatize logic. I don't see any problem with it as long as they actually mean the logic behind it.) The fact is, for better or for worse, the mystified terms are the standard.

It seems to me that the language in LaVey's writing was meant to mislead and confuse those that weren't willing to understand actual meanings. To confuse those that didn't really want to get it. But more so I think it was because it's just plain more fun. And between intelligent people this fun shouldn't get in the way of debate.

Whatever your opinion is on the terms you have to accept that there are certain standards of communication that it's more effective to just go with than fight even if you feel they're misleading. I understand we're all sick of fights over semantics but you have to see that this is just one more fight over words and not meanings.


To perceive what you have and put forward these sobering points in such a concise wording for others to understand is very much appreciated because lets face it, conceited Satanists like to intellectually masturbate themselves to a select audience of mental cripples don't they..

I have seen people pick and dyslexic persons for their grammar whilst not having the intelligence to proof read their well thought out ideas. Mundanes will revel in looking down at others while missing what's actually going on above them.

Respect.
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#51167 - 03/17/11 03:11 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Annihilus916 Offline
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Registered: 03/17/11
Posts: 2
And here I was thinking I was going to actually learn something in this forum. "On to the next one"
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#51168 - 03/17/11 03:14 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Annihilus916]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
And you went through the effort of creating an account to share this, when you could already have moved on?

D.

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#52547 - 04/09/11 06:17 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
mightisright Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 24
Personally, for me, Greater Magic has taught me that the human mind really does need psychodrama. Because, besides magical rituals, Satanism has no other psychodrama, I would feel at a loss without Greater Magic.
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#53150 - 04/19/11 01:21 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Lucif4man Offline
lurker


Registered: 04/17/11
Posts: 3
Interesting rant by all. This same rant seems common among many threads and forums I have seen. It would appear that the 'Satanism' world is split between believers in the occult and hedonists using the term satanist. I would think it better to split the groups into Satanic Hedonism forums and Ritualistic Satanism. I am sure I am preaching to the choir here and of course, who am I, right? It seems little different from skeptics and ghost hunters arguing their own line of semantics.

I would think the majority of 'satanists' probably got their start by looking into ritual magic and Crowley etc. Finding their nature suited and drawn to darker ideology they naturally migrate to Satanism only to find hedonists using a term that truly is a contradiction in ideas.

So, that being said. Where are the 'true' believers in all the things that go bump in the night? I can't imagine that with the long history of occult and dark magic that everyone has lost their faith in demons and creatures under their bed. If that were the case, there would be no Christians either.

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#53178 - 04/19/11 10:58 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Lucif4man]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
There are plenty of "true believers", if you mean the theistic types who think Satan is a personal being they can worship, communicate with, and magically draw occult power from.

The problem with this kind of perspective is that they are usually just as boring as the white-light worshipers. They tend to whitewash Satan as some sort of a misunderstood good-guy who really wants what's best for humanity. They often see themselves as central to some sort of "higher evolution" or "spiritual war", and hubristically think they can actually attain genuine gnosis of the universe.

Is hugging onto the same blanket of anthropocentrism really "dark" when it is identical to that of the Religionists in every respect, save that it is dyed black? Is it not much more Sinister to confront a cold and unfeeling cosmos where humanity has no hope for spiritual salvation, save for an eternity of unconscious oblivion? Is it not more Luciferian to seize your own existential meaning from this nihilistic reality and likewise construct your own ontological empire out of sheer willpower alone?

I can't speak for all here, but I came to Satanism because my previous definition of God via Catholicism didn't correspond to how I saw the universe operate. I toyed with various anthropomorphic and anti-theistic paradigms for a while, but finally realized that I simply needed to accept God as He truly is-- the inhuman and chaotic force which animates reality. Because of this adversarial nature, I also realized "Satan" was the most relevant single name for the Deity known to me.

I am of a much more "mystic" slant than most here, but I see "hedonism" as merely one small part of Satanism. The rest is knowledge, discipline, and personal evolution.


Edited by The Zebu (04/19/11 11:58 PM)
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#53191 - 04/20/11 10:42 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Sinthesis]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
I'll argue for magic being so broad a category as to include anything that could be of use to achieve a desired real world result. But I consider magic something to do rather than a means to do, which may be our bone of contention. Even if what you're doing is working with 'spririts' to facilitate the result - what you are doing is producing a result - the spirits are just one of many possible means.

Ah, but I'm wrong! You protest! And I have to ask, on what grounds am I wrong? And then you produce a ... dictionary (perhaps - or other authority), and prove me wrong.

Meanwhile, because I'm wrong and have this delusion that the result is the magic and that any way you get there is a practice of magic - while you improve your capacity to work with spirits - I may be working on improving my capacity to realize making real change in my world.


Edited by myk5 (04/20/11 10:43 AM)

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#53193 - 04/20/11 11:05 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: myk5]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
As for the main question: How has (Greater) magic changed me?

Well, I can't know the answer to that question really. The me that never worked with magic being so hypothetical.

I'll confess I'm vague about what distinguishes 'Greater' magic from other magic.

I did surprise myself about a year ago where I survived a house fire and lost my pet cats and all my stuff. It could have been emotionally scarring, but I simply accepted it and determined to do the best I could. I'm now employed, and have many projects I work on.

So I seem to have mastered a degree of non attachment. wow.

Psychologically, magic does two nice things - it fosters a belief that you are not helpless, and it orients you to optimism.

Confirmation bias key to build belief, that's why I should attribute everything that doesn't suck in my life to my magic practice. And I do privately, of course.

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#59448 - 09/24/11 04:28 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Ashley Corinne Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Utah
I wouldn't say that GM has changed me per se. I have accomplished personal goals with the help of GM, but I wouldn't say that it has changed me, except maybe helping me to realize how much personal power I have. I've changed myself through reflection, contemplation, and mental exploration. I think of GM as a tool, not a state of mind or being.
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~Ashley

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#59449 - 09/24/11 05:46 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Ashley Corinne]
Zach_Black Offline
member


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 541
Loc: San Diego, California
The few times that I have practiced greater magic I walked away feeling like a fool. In my opinion greater magic is nothing but psychodrama and wishful thinking. You might as well throw some chicken bones into a cup full of tea leaves and then pour that on top of a deck of tarot cards when Saturn lines up with U-anus .
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#59458 - 09/24/11 10:45 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Zach_Black]
RAIDER Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 152
Loc: PA
Ritual and altars have been employed by humans for so long, and in so many cultures.
The validity of 'greater magic' can be argued endlessly......I'd say the belief, or lack thereof, is personal and individual.......whatever.
Personally, I like to set up an altar once a year to ritualize honoring folks and animals who have died......who still live in my memory, just because it makes me feel good to do so.....my partner participates too.
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#59459 - 09/24/11 10:48 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: RAIDER]
RAIDER Offline
member


Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 152
Loc: PA
ps- real world application of the will can create great change. If I need a job, I can clean myself up.........get off my ass and go look for one.
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#59469 - 09/25/11 02:18 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Zach_Black]
Ashley Corinne Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Utah
 Originally Posted By: blackzach
The few times that I have practiced greater magic I walked away feeling like a fool. In my opinion greater magic is nothing but psychodrama and wishful thinking.


I think old man LaVey couldn't have agreed with you more! I think Greater Magic is just that: psychodrama and wishful thinking. In the ritual chamber--or the "ritual space" as it could be better described, since rituals don't always happen in a chamber--you will yourself into another way of thinking with the help of imagery, props, spells, incantations, etc. Magic is not a supernatural process, it's a psychological process. I personally think that the practice of magic is older than religion, and that religion is simply institutionalized magic. If you look at any religion--from Christianity to Hinduism--they all operate under the same principles. I grew up in Mormonism where every week they eat a little piece of bread and drink a little shot glass of water. It's a magical ritual where every individual practitioner is wishing for something when they do it.

The human mind responds to exterior stimuli, be it images, sounds, music, light, darkness, whatever. Greater magic is just the conscious manipulation of these things to bring about the effects we want, as opposed to organized religion where they bring about the effects they want.
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~Ashley

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#59621 - 09/29/11 02:51 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Ashley Corinne]
Ucs Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 9
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
I personally think that the practice of magic is older than religion, and that religion is simply institutionalized magic. If you look at any religion--from Christianity to Hinduism--they all operate under the same principles.


I have to say that I am leaning toward the same view. Man is curious by Nature Yet we all have things that we deal with in different ways. Religion is a shared belief system and communities would have developed and the Power struggle began...Until you are in the present day where we Have a Plethora or different ways to Communicate within ourselves to Be free of Emotions, and in doing so releasing that energy into the universe; within balance of course. The end result being, you are left without what you wanted to get rid of and that energy manifest itself into your desire. Like you said the principles are the same but the road to the end quite different...
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#59750 - 10/04/11 09:36 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Ashley Corinne]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Ashley Corinne
 Originally Posted By: blackzach
The few times that I have practiced greater magic I walked away feeling like a fool. In my opinion greater magic is nothing but psychodrama and wishful thinking.


I think old man LaVey couldn't have agreed with you more! I think Greater Magic is just that: psychodrama and wishful thinking.


I think that perhaps Anton LaVey thought that greater magic was an important aspect of Satanism. After all, he dedicated 1/2 of TSB to it and then saw fit to write a whole other book on the subject. I didn't know the man personally, but he didn't seem the type, to me, to waste time on things he thought unimportant.

'Psychodrama' I agree with, but 'wishful thinking' not so much. Wishful thinking doesn't figure into taking the reins and making things happen.


Edited by Fnord (10/04/11 09:38 AM)
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#59753 - 10/04/11 10:58 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't know Fnord, I remember clearly when reading TSB the first time wondering what the hell that second part was doing in there.

I'm of the opinion that the addition of that ritualistic part had much more to do with the "show" side of Satanism than with the practical value of those specific rituals. After all, it wouldn't be Satanism if there wouldn't something remind all of Black Masses or "evil" rituals of the past.

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#59755 - 10/04/11 11:31 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Diavolo]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Perhaps, D.

I don't think whether or not it was show negates the argument that LaVey perhaps thought it was an important part of Satanism. Clearly he thought the 'show' was integral as he said himself that Satan never had a public mouthpiece before him.

I've seen lots of comments recently alluding to GM as a joke and that ASL never meant it to be a serious undertaking. I'm not sure that's the case.

Maybe Jake and/or The Doc will see fit to weigh in on this one.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#59756 - 10/04/11 11:42 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't really consider that part of their Satanism a joke and it might have use for some for whatever reason, even if only to fulfill a cultural hard-wiring to ritualism but I personally never had any need for it.

I'm quite down to earth in those matters and for me solving whatever "mental" problem was most logical to solve it there where it appears; in the head.

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#59757 - 10/04/11 12:00 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Diavolo]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Yeah, the PITA factor is definitely in effect with the bother of setting up a space and doing it up as prescribed.

Eyes closed in a comfortable chair in a dark room usually works for me... though I do like candles or larger fire at times to focus attention on. Either that or building stuff in my garage with a DVD on and the beer fridge stocked.
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#59767 - 10/04/11 04:47 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The way I see it, all those rituals are basically about one thing; emotions and how to control these.

Once you understand that, you can focus on where it is really needed without losing all that time and effort at creating an "atmosphere" and a lot of trivialities surrounding.

The art of controlling emotions is in learning to understand them and you understand them by learning to understand yourself.

Those rituals might have an effect but as long as they are just a cure for a specific need, you keep requiring them. Solve the need and you no longer require the ritual.

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#59800 - 10/06/11 12:29 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
Goliath Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 93
I've always found Greater Magic both enjoyable and useful.

It seems to me that the Greater Magic described in both the Satanic Bible and the Satanic Rituals is a spiritual practice that is in every way opposite to its Christian counterpart, prayer, and even to payer's traditional inversion, magic.

Traditionally, both prayer and magic are attempts to use the spiritual to affect the physical. Both the person who prays and the person who works magic invokes a spiritual force in hopes of achieving a physical effect. The last time I felt the urge to pray, for example, was more than twenty years ago, when my girlfriend was in intensive care. As I sat in the waiting room, completely helpless, my childhood conditioning came back to me: please God, don't let her die. It was rather startling, since I had not consciously believed in God for years.

What prayer provides, then, is the illusion of power to the powerless--the feeling of doing something useful, and of being able to affect your own fate. This feeling is very important for the psychological well-being of people under stress. Its absence leads to psychological illness--for example, the shell shock which afflicted soldiers in the Great War, trapped in their trenches under artillery fire, unable to advance or retreat, unable to do anything but wait for a shell to fall on them and blow them to pieces. These soldiers not only turned to prayer for solace, but also to magic, in the form of rituals and talismans to ward off danger.

Traditional witchcraft and black magic, in the medieval and early-Modern periods, though condemned by the Church, was basically the same thing as Christian prayer. Greater Magic, by contrast, is the reverse. Rather than an attempt to use the spiritual to affect the physical, it's an attempt to use the physical to affect the spiritual, i.e. the psychological. Instead of seeking spiritual intervention, and only incidentally obtaining psychological relief, the Greater Magician seeks psychological relief through a form of spiritual role-play. Instead of beseeching a God who isn't there, the ritualist plays the part of a mighty sorcerer, invoking the "kingdom of darkness" and whatnot.

This is the connection between Greater and Lesser Magic. Lesser Magic too is a type of psychological manipulation. But Lesser Magic is an attempt to influence others, while Greater Magic is an attempt to influence oneself. When properly conducted, I find it calms and concentrates the mind quite effectively. Once catharsis is achieved, and my emotional balance has been restored, I'm able to think more clearly on how I can really gain mastery over what troubles me. That is to say--how I can physically affect my physical circumstances.

Of course, it's not the only spiritual practice available, nor even necessarily the most effective. In some cases, I've been able to achieve a similar result simply by following the relaxation and controlled-breathing exercises I learned in high-school drama class. Or, as the ancient Stoics taught, by just sitting down calmly and reasoning with myself. Indeed, in some cases, I've achieved a similar result just by counting to ten.

But I find that ritual offers a number of advantages which these other practices do not. One of these is community--the chance to come together and engage in a shared activity with like-minded people--a chance which regrettably does not come very often, at least in my case. Another is the experience of the sublime which careful stagecraft and dramaturgy can provide. All forms of magic are ultimately about power, and as Edmund Burke pointed out, there is "nothing sublime which is not some modification of power." A third is the way Greater Magic, with all its blasphemy and invocations of diabolical powers, provides a ritualized affirmation of opposition to white-light religion. And finally, in my case, because of my particular background, I just enjoy it for its own sake.
_________________________
An illusion--with intelligence! A malignant vision, with a will of pure evil!

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#66087 - 04/12/12 04:22 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Duende]
infinity Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/17/12
Posts: 21
Personally, I am convinced that it is possible to consciously contact spiritual entities that exist outside of myself; after all, we humans are not the only intelligent spiritual beings who exist within infinite universes consisting of numerous planes of vibration.

I don't believe that acknowledging the existences of extra-dimensional beings, outside of myself, is subjecting myself to a division of the schism that divides consciousness and subconsciousness. So it is that I ardently understand that "within is without and without is within" ; yet the many supernatural experiences in which I've had have fully convinced me that we human spirits are not alone.

I am an incarnate spirit-entity, and I know that it is possible to beseech and thus breech contact with other spirits of non-human, extra-dimensional origins. To believe that spirits who exist within extra-dimensions are merely delusions within my inner mind would be just as insane as believing that other humans who I interact with on a daily basis are also delusions within my inner mind. Call me crazy if you will, but no one will sway my perception on this matter.

Stately, I developed my own system of sorcery in which converges lower magick with higher magick; and my answer to your question is that the practice of sorcery has cracked open my ethereal aura; thereby expanding my conscious awareness "beyond self".
All is one, yet all equally demands individual attention, beyond the illusions of self.

Author of 777 V.T.T.S.A. and Constructive Theosophical Chaosophy 555.

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#66088 - 04/12/12 04:38 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: infinity]
Erich Zann Offline
member


Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 193
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: infinity
I know that it is possible to beseech and thus breech contact with other spirits of non-human, extra-dimensional origins.


I have no problem with your views at all, even if they're not in line with my own - after all you say that you believe certain things and are personally convinced of them. But in this paragraph you come up with knowledge - so can you deliver some kind of proof to the statement I quoted? "Knowledge" should be backed up in contrast to solely personal beliefs.

 Originally Posted By: infinity
To believe that spirits who exist within extra-dimensions are merely delusions within my inner mind would be just as insane as believing that other humans who I interact with on a daily basis are also delusions within my inner mind. Call me crazy if you will, but no one will sway my perception on this matter.


Nobody wants to sway your perception - in fact, I'm sure most people here don't care about you or your views at all.
But once again: Why is it insane to deny the existence of any "external spirits" apart from the body? You say it is, but you don't bring up any reason why.

 Originally Posted By: infinity
Stately, I developed my own system of sorcery in which converges lower magick with higher magick


Hell, why do all self-proclaimed sorcerers never seem to learn the spelling of "magic"...

 Originally Posted By: infinity
Author of 777 V.T.T.S.A. and Constructive Theosophical Chaosophy 555.


Some cryptical abbreviations mixed together with occult-sounding words and some numbers. Who do you try to impress with that stuff?
_________________________
The Pledge of Allegiance does not end with "Hail Satan!".

-Bart Simpson

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#66136 - 04/15/12 03:05 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Erich Zann]
infinity Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/17/12
Posts: 21
Hey man, I apologize for causing you grief with my words, as such was not my intention.

You stated and asked: "But in this paragraph you come up with knowledge - so can you deliver some kind of proof to the statement I quoted?"

A rhetorical question in response to yours: "Can you prove what "you ascertained in your posting?"

My extended answer: All is merely perception. Hence, under the context of that knowledge in which I had intended to convey, but merely concisely, relates to the substance of understanding, i.e. as chiefly derived from one's personal experiences.

Quite frankly, I could fancy upon the many "O.O.B.E's" which I have had throughout my life, or other supernatural experiences in which I have beheld, both alone and in the company of other practitioners; yet your Atheist responses would likely be the same! You probably don't believe in spirit, so why express such things to you? A heavy hit of DMT might help you escape the physical shell that you think you are. How much fluoride has your government shoved down your throats in Germany? Rage against the machine that would seal your third-eye! By the way, the majority of my out of body experiences were soberly induced, and thus before I ever partook of a mid expanding substance!

I would surmise that you are, indeed, an Atheist; no offense, for I actually pity you. Furthermore, I do not hate you, and nor am I even slightly offended by your demeanor.

Also, the term magic demeans the spiritual value of what sorcery truly is; rage against the machine, and to hell with the system! So, hence I shall modestly retain the K in magick.

Well, I never denied that some supernatural experiences directly relate to spiritually coalescing with one's higher-self, BUT not all supernatural experiences, or contact with spiritual forces, entail communions with one's higher self; for there are myriads of spiritual entities which independently exist apart from one's higher self. To believe otherwise would be just as arrogant and self-centered as to convincing one's self that every person and animal that exists around you is really a non-existent figment of your imagination.

The physical body is merely a temporary vehicle for the spiritual entity who inhabits it. The physical brain is merely a filter of higher consciousness, for one's true mind exists outside of the brain of the physical vehicle, within the spiritual aura.

Hail to the Gods.

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#66137 - 04/15/12 03:47 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: infinity]
Erich Zann Offline
member


Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 193
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: infinity
Hey man, I apologize for causing you grief with my words, as such was not my intention.


Dude, you didn't cause any grief at all - it's just that there are loads of people claiming the things they "know" are the ultimate truth, etc, blabla, but if you ask them how they came to that conclusion, in most cases you receive nothing which could be labeled as an answer or source for these statements.

 Originally Posted By: infinity
My extended answer: All is merely perception. Hence, under the context of that knowledge in which I had intended to convey, but merely concisely, relates to the substance of understanding, i.e. as chiefly derived from one's personal experiences.


Okay, like I said before, personal experiences or opinions one has are his own cup of tea. If your experiences lead you to the conclusion that things are the way you see them is fine, but your first post sounded like "It's a fact, I know this, and everyone has to accept that it is, otherwise the person's crazy/dumb/whatever" - and if someone makes a statement that "big", one should be able to come up with evidence.

 Quote:
Quite frankly, I could fancy upon the many "O.O.B.E's" which I have had throughout my life, or other supernatural experiences in which I have beheld, both alone and in the company of other practitioners; yet your Atheist responses would likely be the same! You probably don't believe in spirit, so why express such things to you?


That is indeed correct - I don't believe in spirit. On the other hand, I don't think the people talking about OOBEs or similar things are making all that stuff up - I just don't think that this has anything to do with spirit, soul, ghosts, etc.


 Quote:
A heavy hit of DMT might help you escape the physical shell that you think you are. How much fluoride has your government shoved down your throats in Germany?


If I needed mind-altering substances to experience anything spritual, that would be the best proof that all this stuff is simply something made up by the own mind while being intoxicated. And unfortunately, most people who believe in things you mention don't experience anything without their drugs. Well, you wrote that your first experiences occured in a sober state, so maybe you're a rare exception.

Oh, and by the way, even if it was rhetorical: In contrast to the USA our government doesn't fluoridate our tap water. In fact, the only thing fluoridated in my daily life are my toothpaste, my mouthwash and a few kinds of salt.

 Quote:
I would surmise that you are, indeed, an Atheist; no offense, for I actually pity you. Furthermore, I do not hate you, and nor am I even slightly offended by your demeanor.


Well, I care about your pity as much as you do about my demeanor and I didn't expect you to be offended in any way. I do admit that my post was in some parts provocative and I would lie if I said that this wasn't intended, but if you were seriously offended now, then you would be the one to pity.

 Quote:
Well, I never denied that some supernatural experiences directly relate to spiritually coalescing with one's higher-self, BUT not all supernatural experiences, or contact with spiritual forces, entail communions with one's higher self; for there are myriads of spiritual entities which independently exist apart from one's higher self. To believe otherwise [...]


Again you just come up with "It is that way, and you can't be serious to believe otherwise, right?". Reminds me of Ayn Rand's "The Argument from Intimidation" we have in here: http://www.the600club.com/topic26094-1.html - such arguments add nothing to a discussion, because they just try to degrade your counterpart.


Edited by Erich Zann (04/15/12 03:51 PM)
_________________________
The Pledge of Allegiance does not end with "Hail Satan!".

-Bart Simpson

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#66146 - 04/16/12 12:58 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Erich Zann]
infinity Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/17/12
Posts: 21
In addendum, I compliment you for the calmness and intelligence in which you exhibit in your statements.

I'm surprised that your governmental authorities aren't fluoridating your water supply, for, besides the fluoridation of salt, I am also aware that many of the European countries are receiving fluoride through poisoned dairy products. How about Germany?

Yes, unfortunately, the USA poisons its citizens by fluoridating the public water supplies, Nationwide. Fluoride propaganda is rampant here; besides the general ignorance of the USA populace. Despite the aforementioned, I am solemnly inclined to believe that the majority of our citizens are not actually voting for the fluoridation of our water, and various foods, drugs & dental care products. Such is Federally mandated by the FDA and the ADA, among other Bureaus. Is it not more than an ironic coincidence that the ones who maintain power over the masses have suppressed and outlawed many of the natural substances which stimulate heightened pineal-gland functions; whilst they have mandated and promoted a vast variety of chemical substances which repress healthy pineal-gland activity?

Stately, I am not attempting to push my views over on you. I am already aware that you don't believe in spirit, but I must add that, (for some odd reason), the ones who currently rule the world do not want the masses to be spiritually conscious, which highly offends me; and there isn't very much that I perceive as being offensive anymore. Rage against the machine!

Peace.

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#66150 - 04/16/12 03:06 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: infinity]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
As far as I know, fluoridation of public drinking water never killed loads of people so I would not exactly call it poisoning the population. Besides that fact, I bet a great sum of money that while drinking all those favorite bottled liquids you ingest with great joy, you never wondered about the fluoride levels in those. But it ain't the government selling those, so who cares. And they're yummy too.

Also the claim that the ones who rule the world do not want the masses to be spiritually conscious, whatever the heck that means, is a bit silly since I doubt you have privileged access to the agenda of those who rule the world or even know who they are, should they exist.

So how would you know? Besides that, the vague claim someone who might rule the world does not want us to be something does not provide any evidence that this something is real. What an argument like this is called is; deflection.

All you did was make vague claims without providing anything supporting those besides more vague claims.

D.

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#66155 - 04/16/12 07:50 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Diavolo]
TwIzT Offline
member


Registered: 12/21/11
Posts: 127
Well here is my vague claim. There is a store called Whole Foods which is said to sell organic and natural foods.

My friend that works there, claims that eating anything that is not organic or natural like the products from his store actually hurt your body and could end up giving you cancer.

Now his claim could be valid or a corporate revenue scam.

Make it cheaply, kill some people who cares we see profit.

By the way I am being sarcastic profit is not a valid reason.


Edited by TwIzT (04/16/12 07:53 AM)
_________________________
We are all the lab mice bred for one purpose to run the wheel to power america. Cheeze controls us.

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#66161 - 04/16/12 09:57 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Diavolo]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
I don't see how fluoridation of water really makes that much of a difference. All studies I've read on the topic don't suggest any substantial adverse effects from the process, aside from one or two extremely rare accidents resulting in overdosing the water supply. The low amount of fluoride present in the water doesn't seem much more dangerous than any of the other chemicals found naturally and artificially in our environment.

The claimed effects of fluoridated water are too ridiculous to be practical, ranging from accusations of poisoning and mass genocide, to the idea that it is also some sort of a mind-control drug that makes the population easier to control. I've even seen some paranoid people use this to marginalize the arguments of those who disagree with them... "you can't comprehend the Illuminati conspiracy because the fluoride in the water is clouding your mind!"

It's all rather stupid and lacking in evidence.

Then again... we're all just trying to keep the international communist conspiracy from tainting our precious bodily fluids.


Edited by The Zebu (04/16/12 10:00 AM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#66163 - 04/16/12 10:07 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
It's indeed bullshit but because the government does it, it must be true and evil.

The ironic part is that the bottled water they all drink also contains fluorides but does anyone know how much? And really, if there is one gigantic scam, it is selling bottled water and having consumers buy that "good" stuff at a ridiculously high price compared to what they can almost freely drink from the tap.

But tap water that's poison.

D.

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#66169 - 04/16/12 01:34 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Diavolo]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
It is important to recognize the abuses of authority present in society, but somewhere down the "fuck the system" road, one runs the risk of falling into a sort of Manichaeism wherein the government becomes part of a larger diabolic conspiracy infiltrating and corrupting every fibre of reality. Fear of chemtrails, fluoride, radio waves, occult influence, et cetera, leave the perceived victim with no other alternative than a transcendental escape from material existence, usually failing to admit that even such experiences could simply be "another level of control".

The LHP does share a certain reactionary gnostic bent, but minus the hostility towards reality in of itself. Furthermore, the absurd anti-Satanic hysteria prevalent in such circles can provide a sobering reminder that such ideas are rooted more in paranoia and appeals to emotion than rational logic or sound rhetoric.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#66196 - 04/17/12 10:10 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: The Zebu]
infinity Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/17/12
Posts: 21
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA2hil0iKsk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dZPOJ4p1DM

http://www.naturalnews.com/026364_fluoride_pineal_gland_sodium.html

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/fluoride-calcifier-soul


My sole concern regarding fluoride pertains to mainly the calcification of the pineal gland, as such is likely counterproductive to esoteric spiritualism, transcendental meditation, and etc.

Frankly, I didn't expect to be the receptacle of so much opprobrium under the pretenses of addressing the topic of fluoride. Whatever.

If it isn't mass poisoning then what is it? Involuntary "medication" of the masses? Fluoridating the water supplies as a preventative measure against cavities" is just as ludicrous as putting ibuprofen into public water supplies for preventing headaches!

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#66200 - 04/18/12 01:30 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: infinity]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Yet clearly not everybody reacts to fluoridated water the same way. Some may be more sensitive to it, in the same way that other people have a heightened sensitivity to various chemicals. Fluoride poisoning is still currently quite a rare diagnosis, so I would like to know if there have been widespread studies on the health and toxicity of large populations with and without fluoridated water supplies.

And even if it is really an attempt by the government to make the population more mundane and compliant, it certainly isn't doing a very good job, seeing that we are currently experiencing a boom in both anti-government dissent and transcendentalist thinking.

Plus, isn't the whole point of esotericism that it TRANSCENDS the physical and material realm, therefore suggesting that mundane chemicals cannot possibly affect the spirit, which is ostensibly self-dependent and eternal?


Edited by The Zebu (04/18/12 01:33 AM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#66219 - 04/19/12 02:59 PM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: The Zebu]
infinity Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/17/12
Posts: 21
Hello, I replied to your responce in a new thread within this forum category called "Filtration of the spiritual-consciousness-thread".

http://www.the600club.com/dir/ubbthreads...=true#Post66216

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#67257 - 06/11/12 11:27 AM Re: How has Greater Magic changed you? [Re: Dan_Dread]
ChrisA Offline
lurker


Registered: 11/28/11
Posts: 3
Loc: Ohio
I haven't posted on here for quite sometime, and based on alot of the material I have read and the one's that I no longer read (or put thorough stock in) have altered my perspective on many things.

Magus LaVey did mention that many need fantasy as well as "reality." He states that for all the good psychiatry has done for us, the adverse side is that it has been successful at stripping man of his fantasies.

Greater Magic creates, for myself, an area or a Span of Control over a subjective plain. This is why one enters an Intellectual Decompression chamber, span of control over something that is, for all intents and purposes, not completely rational. Leave the rationalization for later, when the rite is finished. However, this rationalization doesn't have to be counter effective for the things accomplished in the Ritual Chamber. We don't have to step out after the rite is finished and say: "Get a load of all that crazy bullshit I just did!" This can be counter effective to both psychological and trans-empirical factors that can lead to success of magic.

If my magic is an hour and a half, 2 hours of gothic mind fucking and monster movie-esqe drama. I can think of 10 thing that would require more attention. 10 things would be more benefited on a pragmatic plain that wasting my time reciting anything from TSB, or any ritual for that matter.

LaVey developed ritual for more than just edginess. There was more going on, in the Church, than just social envelope pushing. Many rites done by the Church did not have media coverage, so then why do them? In a group setting for that matter? Because, as a Satanist I am looking, via ritual, for something that makes me exclusively myself. Beyond the little trinkets I can amass, or how many lust rituals I have under my belt. Or how many morons I have wasted my time, energy, and will on hexing them.

Even if it's all for naught, and I waste away at a ripe old age and rot back into to organic waste. I still lived a life filled with enjoyment of the flesh, but still sought the possibility of the Ego being willed to an posthumous existence. As a Satanist if I never left any stone unturned, for the sake of Knowledge for the Self, and of the Self. I would have nothing but hate if there was an opportunity I had, but never worked my ass off to achieve.

 Quote:
If a person has been vital throughout his life and fought to the end for his Earthly existence, it is the ego which will refuse to die, even after the expiration of the flesh which housed it...It is the vitality that will allow the Satanist to peek through the curtain of darkness and death and remain Earthbound. - Life After Death Through Fulfillment of the Ego.


And so to second Dread. I don't hold this personal goal, to feel better than fellow Satanists. It is a personal goal, one that should not be placed on another person. Satanism is a Carnal Religion, a religion of the flesh. But like some Evil Geniuses I fancy Dr. Frankenstein, or Count Dracula, maybe Dr. J Faustus.

Indeed Magus LaVey is immortal amongst us Satanists, and those who do not fancy the title but do enjoy the religion, in our brains and sinews. If that is all that amounts to immortality of the Ego. I am fine with that as well.

Hail Satan! Hail Anton LaVey!

-Chris A.
The Inquiring Satanist


Edited by ChrisA (06/11/12 11:34 AM)

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