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#51982 - 03/31/11 04:11 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: mabon2010]
Shea Offline
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Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
This topic is quite intense, and culling in its myriad definitions is divisive. I'm going to take what could be an unpopular stance and say that objective morality does exist.
Of course, I'm not talking Good/Evil but basic human values that allow us to survive as a species. Taking a cue from the social contract theorists, I say that the ONA is probably a good candidate for Nietzsche's personification of the Last Man. Abject Nihilism abounds; not that they necessarily desire the end of everything, but the simple fact that all value is held to be 100% subjective and divorced of any real meaning (or point of reference) in the world.
I saw a defense of the ONA and their supposed dedication to praxis, but action divorced from theory is not praxis at all; it amounts to no more than mindlessly expending energy for no more than expediency of the moment or unreasonable emotional satisfaction.
The mind of man is his most reliable tool, and placing that tool in an area of complete isolation (via total subjectivity) severely hampers its usefulness.
At the risk of sounding repetitive, if you wish to cull to the extreme level (murder), do so at your own risk. Being familiar with violence myself, I can tell you, it holds no concern over how elite you consider yourself to be, or how extreme your particular brand of ideology (or non-ideology) strives to be.

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#51984 - 03/31/11 04:33 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Diavolo]
Ex_Insula_Angelorum Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/15/11
Posts: 18
Loc: Mexico
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
why some are so vehemently opposed to culling?

Some might just be taking out the trash.

D.


In my opinion that's just a short-term solution, I also believe that certain people should not be allowed to live but that will not stop the future creation of such individuals. It is undeniable that some societies, countries, places produce more "bad" people than others and I think is possible to change that, it has been done probably thousands of times in the past, societies can be modified and I believe that the number of "bad" or "good" individuals in a society is related to the moral values of such societies.

Just look at the US, it is the biggest drug consumer in the planet, it has the biggest number of serial killers and school shootings in the world. Just killing the bad guys is not going to solve the problem because there is something inside the American society that allows and creates this kind of people more than anywhere else in the world.

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#51985 - 03/31/11 04:36 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
@ Diavolo
Where am I wrong in my definitions on Satanism. You say I am wrong but you fail to point where I have gone wrong. I am always open to learn, and will adapt and change definitions if I see I am wrong.


You keep trying to classify it all in simple groups. It must be either this or that. Like Satanism being either ego- or devil-centered and since devil = deity, it must therefor be RHP. RHP and LHP are a praxis, a specific method. Whether a deity or not is involved into a worldview doesn't make anything suddenly become different. I can easily become a churchgoer for specific reasons and never leave the LHP. I make the rules and I decide what is needed for whatever reason.

It all isn't as simple as you see it and many definitions used these days are adapted concepts meaning something only in a specific context, but this does not imply the older approaches became extinct. Satanism can either be a manifestation of a current or of an older approach. There is so much difference in each path that it can't be classified in two or three subgroups. And then there are those who “use” Satanism for a specific reason; it is a after all a memeplex and there are those who are nothing but meme-muppets.

I wonder why you think it is all so easily figured out, or classified, when it is evidenced, even here, that even when there are similarities between some, the differences can be overwhelming.

D.

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#51986 - 03/31/11 04:41 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Ex_Insula_Angelorum]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Ex_Insula_Angelorum
In my opinion that's just a short-term solution, I also believe that certain people should not be allowed to live but that will not stop the future creation of such individuals.


To some it might not be about saving the world as much as it is about doing what they feel like doing. If wondering about the long-term results or use of everything we do, we quit doing anything at all.

It's like when a dog shits in front of your door. You might leave it there because maybe the next day he will shit again. Or you might solve the issue but even then, another dog might shit.

Personally, I prefer not having shit in front of my door.

D.

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#51987 - 03/31/11 05:01 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Shea]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think you confuse relativism with perspectivism. Perspectivism knows it isn't true but even so, it acts as if. In that condition it does what it feels or needs to do.

Value is indeed 100% subjective and as such, the idea that human values allow us to survive as a species does only become meaningful if one does see value in that very survival. But to life itself, it doesn't matter if we survive or not; life doesn't judge or define meaning; it just does what it does.

About culling; I don't want to know if people here cull; only fools would share their cull-list and even if, how seriously would it be taken? I don't even care if people find it silly or stupid. All I point at is that it can indeed be a part of the satanic approach. There is nothing unsatanic about the concept itself.

D.

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#51989 - 03/31/11 05:21 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Diavolo]
Shea Offline
member


Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
There is a definite line between perspectivism and relativism to be sure, but I did indeed intend that latter. Raffy, and those who are involved with the ONA tend to take a more relativistic "It's true for me, in these circumstances" kind of stance, as opposed to "There's many ways, but mine is probably better" stance that perspectivism allows for (while blending the two occasionally). The very nature of their subjective assessment of reality doesn't leave room for much in the way of perspectivism which allows for the assimilation of ideas in relation to other ideas from differing perspectives.
And while value, in idealistic terms does have a large root in the subjective; real world application demands that there be an external form of reference. The ONA can be 100% sure their path is the best out of all the various sinister paths, but without referencing an object external to their valuation (and the very definition of "sinister" itself, which exists external to their subjective valuations), their feelings are meaningless and have no real world application. Hence, my consideration of them as essentially being a symptom of cultural Nihilism, as opposed to a proactive ideological phenomenon, or even an evolution of Nietzsche's total perspectivism.
One thing I am certain of, the Overman is not to be found anywhere near the ONA.

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#51992 - 03/31/11 05:29 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Shea]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm not quite sure what you imply with an external object as a reference to a valuation since I think valuation is done referencing the internal. One looks inside to value that what is outside. That what is there does not create value, that which you are does.

D.

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#51994 - 03/31/11 05:53 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Diavolo]
Shea Offline
member


Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
Oh, yeah, I definitely see the problem; my fault. Maybe an allegory will help.
If I decide that Turquoise is the most precious stone, and that all of the world's currency should be based upon it, no amount of subjective emotional demanding will change the fact that my feelings have no real world meaning (aside from the fact that the people around me will try to trade me turquoise for my gold). My (allegorical) internal schema of values is meaningless, and ultimately harmful because of my "elitist" refusal to reference my valuations to anything external (objective) to myself.
Even Nietzsche's perspectivism demands the assimilation of facts external to oneself; a revaluation of all values as a constant. Implicit in the revaluation, is that values are external (and internal) as a whole. The ONA, and its "sinister" ideology has no positive (pro-life) real world application; and ultimately, anyone who pursues it to its apex will be crushed by reality--as such, it's anti-life, just like any white light religion/philosophy.

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#51996 - 03/31/11 06:54 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Shea]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
This topic is quite intense, and culling in its myriad definitions is divisive. I'm going to take what could be an unpopular stance and say that objective morality does exist.

+O+ Good morning, Shea +O+

Of course, I'm not talking Good/Evil but basic human values that allow us to survive as a species.

+O+ My immediate question is if moral objectivity is key to survival - what allowed us to survive and flourish as a species before human values and the invention of morality existed? +O+

Taking a cue from the social contract theorists, I say that the ONA is probably a good candidate for Nietzsche's personification of the Last Man. Abject Nihilism abounds; not that they necessarily desire the end of everything,

+O+ Some of ONA's Nexions do - the TOB for instance, or THEM. Solvet Saeclum in Favilla. TOB desire nuclear catastrophe, THEM desire psycho-social collpase. +O+

but the simple fact that all value is held to be 100% subjective and divorced of any real meaning (or point of reference) in the world.

+O+ That's not entirely true - since different nexions of the ONA have their own viewpoints it is no longer accurate, merely convenient, to state what the ONA as a collective unity, believe. For instance, see In Sinister Solidarity on Mvimaedivm Wordpress where this division is explained as well as what is believed to be objective, outside of all human constucts plastered over the black clay that IS there. +O+

I saw a defense of the ONA and their supposed dedication to praxis, but action divorced from theory is not praxis at all; it amounts to no more than mindlessly expending energy for no more than expediency of the moment or unreasonable emotional satisfaction.

+O+ Another expert on the ONA? Your abstracts trip you up like so many others - in exactly the same way you claim varying definitions of culling read Killing, to be divisive. Because you validate theory you automatically must invalidate action - you are trapped in the tension of opposites and the rigourous dimension of words, duality and morality. See, Chronobet. An Analysis of Frequency, 23 Syndrome etc... +O+

The mind of man is his most reliable tool, and placing that tool in an area of complete isolation (via total subjectivity) severely hampers its usefulness.

+O+ The mind is the most valuable tool, certainly, but not the most reliable - were that true, humanity might have thought for itself as individuals and many aeons of bloodshed gatherting together under various forms and banners could have been avoided in lieu of a nice game of backgammon. If your mid is so powerful - allow it to see through your own arguments which are based entirely on a single viewpoint. If it is powerful, allow it to see beyond the matrix of accepted knowledge and tradition - because nothing you have said, is objective. +O+

At the risk of sounding repetitive, if you wish to cull to the extreme level (murder), do so at your own risk. Being familiar with violence myself, I can tell you, it holds no concern over how elite you consider yourself to be, or how extreme your particular brand of ideology (or non-ideology) strives to be.

+O+ For the love of Aosoth... Does anyone actually read the ONA's materials anymore or do they just scan the forums, jump to conclusions, and get some vicarious thrill out of being morally superior? There are over 5000 pages of ONA materials, many of which explain or even contradict the act of culling. Where you settle in the debate does not necessarily award you the right answer, just Your answer. This, is in part, one of the most powerful aspects of the ONA - you learn for yourself, you don't follow doctrine. +O+



Edited by Khk (03/31/11 06:55 PM)

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#51997 - 03/31/11 07:04 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Khk]
Shea Offline
member


Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
I will certainly check out more about the ONA, especially since they've provided me with a relatively enjoyable amount of thought/conversation thus far.
I've not claimed to be an expert in the ONA at all, I was just commenting on the impressions that I had been able to develop based upon the people that I had spoken to about it (as well as their behavior), in addition to the material I've read on it via various online sources and Michael Ford's writings on it. I do understand that it is certainly not the Definitive end all be all on the ONA.
I am a LeVeyan Satanist, and I see the ONA as nothing but a would be political group with a flawed ideology; nothing particularly sinister about it at all, aside from their claims to be so, and their references to mythology/demonology.
I'll be sure to check it out more, thanks for the tip.

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#51998 - 03/31/11 07:12 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Ex_Insula_Angelorum]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
In my opinion that's just a short-term solution, I also believe that certain people should not be allowed to live but that will not stop the future creation of such individuals.

+O+ Well said. Precisely why THEM take the approach of psycho-social collapse, i.e. to reset the human being and its function and context by dismantling the enshrinement of the ego that causes this dross to flourish. Therefore, ONA has separate and multiple approaches to the problem; nuclear annihilation, culling on a ritual basis, culling on a social basis, re-alignment of peoples values, pointing out hypocrisy and contradiction, solving contradiction, destroying the Magi's forms, countering the Magi's forms, and many more - somewhere between an All or Nothing War each nexion performs its own approach in sinister solidarity with the Order and its Nine Angles.

As one case in point, consider THEMs article on the Alpha-Cynic written a few years ago which predicted the rise of the Alpha-Cynic over the archetype of the Alpha-Male. Since then Australian Footballers have been stripped of their power and many no longer turn a blind eye to the rapes or violence they commit as once they were given certain freedoms because they were national sporting idols - the best thing you can possibly be, in Australia. Note also, that the UFC (Ultimate Fighitng Championship) has flourished because of the level of respect and the restoration of the attitude of the Warrior Code. Though huge or extremely proficient fighters, a level of humility pervades the UFC, not so with many other forms of 'fighting' citing the WWF where brawlers mouth off constantly to one another in shows of disrespect. People now expect more from the muscular alpha-male than just muscles and brawn - they expect humility, and they respect humility - and to have idols who are humble, creates ripples across the board. The Alpha-Cynic is well and truly establishing itself as this centuries archetype - this is something THEM predicted and foresaw as a result of keeping a close eye on the esoteric currents that emerge through exoteric events, and part of what the ONA represents, as well as its reasons for presenting culling as a solution. The Order performs a lot of messy psychic cleansing via its no-nonsense try-or-die ethos in thousands of individuals that might otherwise be drawn into cults that do not allow members to think for themselves and thus learn nothing. If you want to Know the ONA - practice the ONA and speak only from the experience you Do have of the ONA - because there are far too many prejudiced fools tinkling their bells here... Show me any manuscript of the Order and I will show you one that says the opposite.

That said, it is a natural unfolding of the psychic journey one takes with ONA to comment, argue, discuss the views it presents at various stages of initiatory understanding and familiarity. So I expect we shall hear many more pronouncements from many more people as they work through their various incarnations of wisdom at its height in the slow ad accumulum infinitum. +O+


Edited by Khk (03/31/11 07:20 PM)

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#51999 - 03/31/11 07:24 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Diavolo]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Morning Diavolo, and Mabon

As a case in point, whilst the ONA considers itself LHP - an insight role may very well demand that one live the archetype of an RHP to show the different exoteric skeletons are unified in the esoteric function. I.e. it doesnt matter what badge you put on, the action is the same.

Terms like LHP, even Dark Gods, Mythos, Symbolism, Abstraction, Ritual are all useful - to a point. And that's they key phrase here - to a point.

As long as this endless dance of people taking the forms at face value continues, without being able to discern the underlying complexity of the ONA as a simple acceptance of things as they are - the ONA will persist. If that day ever comes - we will change to suit the new conditions.

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#52001 - 03/31/11 07:42 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Shea]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
+O+ Are you so sure that your -I- is the only particpant in the game of life? Turquoise is an abstract, so is precious, and stone. You can believe what you like - and the world may just roll over you, sure - but so what? The world has not rolled over the ONA. The members of ONA constatnyl submit their valuations to the world and its edifices and awaits a judgement. We do not answer to others, nor to your law, or your 'logical' suppositions which assume many things before they assume logic - but just as you come with your hands full to us to make yourself heard, so do we go to others and the world with our hands full, of whatever form we are carrying at the time (a dynamic transitional flux) and test ourselves against it. Quite quickly, many suppositions initiates make are smashed, many abstractions re-evaluated, and many illusions cast away. The most common mistake people make with ONA is to read its material and treat its materal in isolation. What makes the materials useful - are the adepts that offer guidance and insight into those materials who have gone before, and know that this is not necessarily true, or that a person should be prompted to think differently, open up options, destroy their 23 syndromes and the concrete in which they mire themselves believing this or that to be "Objective" truth. They may very well lose all their Turquoise to gold traders by making such stupid assumptions about the complexities of the economic market, but they will learn from the experience. If they dont - then so what? ONA wants those that learn. And accordingly, we welcome those that do. If they trade their turquoise twice, then maybe it will take a third time to sink in. The difference is, some of the ONA's trials can kill you, and there is nothing to help noone to run to when things get tough - its just like the Real world when mum and dad kicked you out of home. You can phone them up and ask for advice, but ultimately, you're on your Own.

Nietzsche was a sister-loving clown. You cite him but you dont understand him or what made him tick - or even the function inside him that we are all unified in sharing that gives a person their views. Academia may be useful for the armchair philosophist, but to understand racism, nothing is better than to adopt an Insight Role and learn the hard truths about getting your head kicked in, cowardice, and the power of one - or vice/versa, tribalism, community, and the power of a group. You keep saying the ONA has none of this, and you're an idiot - but in asking why anyone would pursue its written materials to their apex - you're getting somewhere. Though we're not - we've been explaining this to people for decades and the majority are still too stupid to get it. Most of them just go off what they read and never actually do any of the pathways, spherework, roles or tasks. They are a dime a dozen, you must be the 10,000th.

That said, there are a lot more people who Do get it, than there used to be.


Edited by Khk (03/31/11 07:47 PM)

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#52002 - 03/31/11 07:50 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Shea]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
Are you aware that M. Ford produced a Sinister Calendar, Shea.

I wouldn't trust his comments on ONA any further than you can throw them.

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#52007 - 03/31/11 10:46 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Khk]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
This thread never dies down, huh?

To be honest, I've always found most ONA writings to be nauseatingly arrogant (which is partly why it's taken me so long to drudge through their material), but I've since concluded it's partly a deliberate defense mechanism put in there to ward off the soft-skinned. (Not that would I honestly expect anything less from our kindred champions of those western apogees of hubris; our dear friends Lucifer and Faustus.) So while I still personally find 'culling' an unnecessary addendum (it being more efficient in my eyes to simply let humanity cull themselves), I have since understood their reasoning for emphasizing it.

 Quote:
Are you aware that M. Ford produced a Sinister Calendar, Shea.


In the end there are only so many safeguards against profanity that one can incorporate, especially within Satanism.

That said, I'm gonna go buy a Christos Beest bumper sticker on Cafepress and then 'like' the ONA fan page on facebook.


Edited by The Zebu (03/31/11 10:47 PM)
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