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#121310 - 01/21/20 07:42 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Czereda]
XiaoGui17 Online
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1420
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Not sure if it's such a bad command of English on my part or you deliberately ignoring what I'm actually saying.
I see that what SIN is responding to != what you're saying. Your English is fine.

Whether she's avoiding it deliberately is another question.

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Culling in the sense you see in the MSS has never existed just like the class struggle in the sense the fans of Marx used never existed. These are the artificial language constructs that aim to reinterpret the reality in a specific ideological way. It's the rhetoric. . . . To say culling has always existed would imply that every random slaughter in human history had, like in the case of farm or wild animals, the higher aim of segregating and improving the whole population.
Culling in the sense of "eugenics" did not exist in early human history in no small part because the mechanisms of inheritance were not at all understood. (They still aren't understood very well by your average Joe, but nonetheless our collective grasp is drastically better than it was in centuries past.)

Historically, any effort to wipe out a large segment of a population was focused more on neutralizing threats, eliminating competitors for limited resources, stopping foreign influences from corrupting the local way of life, or even quarantining vectors of disease. It certainly wasn't viewed as scooping the poop out of the gene pool. Nor was it done for the welfare of humanity-in-general, a relatively recent ideal in the scheme of human history.

This is not to say the concept of eugenics should elicit such a visceral recoil as it does. I honestly think the nomos is too quick to throw that baby out with the bathwater.

But that being said, much of the Nazi implementation of so-called "eugenics" was attempting to pigeonhole science into a pre-existing worldview rather than shape a worldview around science.

And frankly, much of the nonsense the ONA writes about "culling" does take a similar tack. The notion of culling sounds fine in theory when the MSS first make their case for it. Taking out the human garbage? Yessiree, it's about damn time. But when they get into the knitty gritty of how to actually implement it, the vectors for determining who's gonna be culled, it's half-baked and farcical.
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#121313 - 01/22/20 11:25 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Czereda]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7210
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
To say culling has always existed would imply that every random slaughter in human history had, like in the case of farm or wild animals, the higher aim of segregating and improving the whole population. That it was something systematic and organized while human conflicts are by nature mostly random and chaotic. Unless we want to play Nazis or communists, history cannot be interpreted in such a simplistic manner.


You should be rather familiar with the texts by which ONA MSS was extrapolated, including much from Mesopotamian and Greek Culture. Dumbing it down for the masses so to speak. I say should, but you're not even familiar with the origins of most OT stories sooooo... Yeah probably not. I'm not here to educate you Czereda but your ineptitude is on display for all eyes to see.

Even dating to the beginning of civilization, if you were the weakest link; you wer set out into the dessert to die. If you weren't a benefit to the tribe, you were culled.


I don't expect you to be intellectually diligent, mostly lazy. As per usual. Just because you jot down that I'm ignoring points doesn't mean I have. In fact, I've been directly addressing them.

 Quote:
Spare yourself statements that have nothing to do with what I said.


I can only chalk it up to blatant ignorance and intellectual bankruptcy.


I'm subscribed to this topic, and received an alert it was active again.






Edited by SIN3 (01/22/20 11:43 AM)
Edit Reason: linked PDF doc for reference

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#121314 - 01/22/20 11:50 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: SIN3]
Kori Houghton Offline
member


Registered: 11/23/15
Posts: 207
Loc: East Coast USA
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Ummm you do realize there are texts that the OT is based right? That every civilization with a written record has similar concepts?


Sure. And the older texts that share common roots with the OT are products of urban friction and unrest, using pastoral references in proverbs and parables, myths and fables, to urge certain codes of behavior on the masses. It's much easier to use the power of suggestion -- coupled with a hint a fear -- to try and control behavior. Violence is messy, and it costs money to supply weapons to your police, and to clean up after they've gone into action.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Probably not, I digress...

I don't care where you've lived, or what you believe. Culling has always been present.


Not artificial "culling" used by religions and intentional communities, usually religion-based. It's not "culling" when athletes are injured, or even killed, playing their sport. It's just the small but real element of risk rolling over the injured. The concept of killing a dude because he got handsy with a tart on a train is just stoopid (as in ONA fiction). Actually the real world faith-based culls are more pointless than the ones the ONA freaks imagine.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Anton LaVey repackaged it as stratification.


Ooooh, Doc sez! Stratification is meaningful to common people who don't have the talent or luck (not the same thing) to ascend the short ladder available for leveling up based on merit or fame. The men who were the ancestors of my paternal grandfather had no need for membership cards to identify as elite. That was a known fact as soon as they squirted out from between their mothers' legs. The point of the game was literally staying alive, not gaining cred. Like that old Jap said in the original KARATE KID: "Not fight for points, fight for life!"

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Once again I over estimate the crazy cat lady. You're not even a good Catholic. FFS



You think so? Then you are mistaken. Anna gets it. I don't know how much farther she can break it down for you?
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#121315 - 01/22/20 11:53 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: XiaoGui17]
Kori Houghton Offline
member


Registered: 11/23/15
Posts: 207
Loc: East Coast USA
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17
God Emperor Trump


That was my meme! I told the volunteers in 2016 who were trying to convince me to vote that it was time for America to have a God Emperor. I think we need him a while longer.
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#121316 - 01/22/20 12:56 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: SIN3]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2153
Loc: Poland
Seriously? I begin to suspect you're trolling now.

If you really think it was always the weakest link that got removed, then you probably slept during most of your history classes at school. Often, it was to the contrary.

The problem with the whole concept of sinister culling is that it is strongly connected to the kindred honor and the idea of fairness. It's not the acceptance of killing that is problematic here but the moral judgement that is applied to it i.e., "we kill only those of rotten character, those who are dishonorable." It begs the question: rotten, dishonorable according to whose standards? Who is qualified to judge who deserves to die and who doesn't? And what makes the whole thing even more ludicrous are the simultaneous claims of amorality!

Meanwhile, the history shows that people mostly kill for pretty mundane reasons, and not always even rational, even if the rhetoric accompanying it might show some higher moral aims. History doesn't know any "fair slaughter", "honorable extermination" or "just holocaust." Whoever uses such oxymorons either tries to conceal his actual agenda or has completely lost touch with the reality.

No need to link the MSS. I know it. What differentiates "culling" from killing is that the former one has some moral connotations and is supposed to serve a higher "aeonic" purpose. To mistake it for standard killing is to totally miss the point. Whoever uses these two words as synonymous is talking out of his/her ass. This time it's you.


Edited by Czereda (01/22/20 01:01 PM)
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#121317 - 01/22/20 01:34 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Czereda]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7210
Loc: Virginia
Dont project too hard or clutch your pearls too tightly. It was fairly obvious I was using a general sense. In my previous post, I also stated Cull was used both metaphorically and literally, even within the context of ONA MSS.

Im not using complicated language purposely. I can only conclude that those being Obtuse can only see singular context. Im approaching this pragmatically. Unless of course, youve changed your mind and think theres more than isolate cases of readers of MSS that are out there murdering people, following the manual to the letter and is the one troo Way of being a Satanist.
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#121319 - 01/22/20 03:32 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: SIN3]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2153
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I can only conclude that those being Obtuse can only see singular context. Im approaching this pragmatically. Unless of course, youve changed your mind and think theres more than isolate cases of readers of MSS that are out there murdering people, following the manual to the letter and is the one troo Way of being a Satanist.


I'm pretty tired with your strawmen, honestly. I'm not going to repeat what I've already said as we are obviously not on the same page. The dictionary meaning of culling isn't the object of this discussion. Neither am I interested in Ms Jones' personal interpretation of culling. I'm talking about culling in the context of the ONA rhetoric. Part of the propaganda or rhetoric (and it's not only ONA characteristic) is taking the already existing words and giving them a new, specific, ideologically loaded meaning. That in turn shapes or rather distorts the adherent's view of the reality. Yeah I'm being oh so obtuse now. Perhaps, I should put that in fucking Greek to make the point.


Edited by Czereda (01/22/20 03:58 PM)
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#121321 - 01/22/20 05:32 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Czereda]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7210
Loc: Virginia
So, am I. And you've not proven your case. Your accusations of Straw Men have no merit.

Your tantrums on this forum don't make a very compelling case either. As stated, "even with the ONA MSS..." the context is both literal and metaphorical. I'm not at all interested in your beliefs about it.

I linked the oath quoted in the OP's post. Have a read and get back to me.





Edited by SIN3 (01/22/20 05:35 PM)
Edit Reason: the Jews were chased out of Europe with good reason

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#121322 - 01/22/20 06:57 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: SIN3]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2153
Loc: Poland
Tantrums? So where did I throw a tantrum here?

Please, explain where in the MSS exactly culling is purely metaphorical i.e. means something else than literally killing undesirable people, master (or mistress) of non points and non-arguments.
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#121324 - 01/23/20 02:16 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Czereda]
Spida Offline
member


Registered: 02/19/17
Posts: 294
Loc: Maine
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
- Tantrums? So where did I throw a tantrum here?

Reminiscing, such fun isn't it? Well you know, not much point in remembering if it will either not help or hinder your cause. I remember though. I remember not too long ago you wander your goon ass into my blog; throw a hissy and call it garbage.

As if your blog is so fucking elite you have the right to criticize me. I don't believe it's anything special; probably mostly mundane. Unfortunately I don't have the time nor desire to consume enough of it for an all inclusive evaluation.

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
I freely express my views because this is what we have forums and blogs for.

Exactly; even at the expense of ones own eyes being raped. Just look away.

One ping, and one ping only. That's all you are, and when there are nearly twenty thousand others it's quite insignificant.

So that's my two cents. I'm going back to bed now. Goodnight.
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#121326 - 01/23/20 07:29 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Spida]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2153
Loc: Poland
First of all, if I remember well, it wasn't your blog but a forum thread so everyone has a right to comment and post their feedback just like you can post your replies in all other topics. If you want a safe personal space free from all kinds of criticism, which you obviously can't stand, I suggest going to Facebook (you can block or report "enemies" there and delete their comments at leisure) or WordPress (you can turn off comments altogether).

As for my blog, it remains hidden in my signature. Those who don't want to view it, simply do not click the link. Whereas your "blog" regularly appears in the recent posts section and everyone sees it whether they want it or not. That's the main difference between my blog and your "blog", you butthurt puppy you.
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#121327 - 01/23/20 07:55 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Czereda]
samowens84 Offline
active member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 740
What drives people more than a "comfortable slavery," more than a "great vision," is someone with courage who inspired them to be the best person they can be. A person's own humanity. The freedom to be their best self as inspired by the actions of another.

Nothing gives hope more than the hope of one's own voice, of one's own love, or one's own courage.

No one can give you anything that compares to what you can give to yourself.

And yes I read your blog. Or some of it.

I thought this line was beautiful.

The only flaw you had was your "ability to only do good."

Beautifully human.

But I think you already knew that actually.

You hadn't posted anything since then as I can recall.

So....

What's to be curious about?

Or to put it in a phrase more recognizable...

But you already knew that!

But to turn a phrase, some people in my past experience had only seemed to look for an excuse to ease their conscience rather than doing the next right thing.

Or to put it more simply, they only seemed to care about pointing the finger at someone else for their own mistakes.

The only thing that makes a person feel better genuinely is actually doing what you know is right, not blaming someone else.

Only you know your own moral code and blaming someone won't give that back to you.

Blame is inept.

In my life I'd been generally too busy to blame anyone, even though I'm sure I could find someone to blame if I wanted too.

But that's just a distraction and generally offers no solution.

There are two mindsets I find when I've ever found myself faced with a difficulty, or remorse.

I can accept that I can change a situation, or i can't.

The "can't" part often confronted the ego.

The can't in some had in my experience triggered grandiose beliefs like "I can do anything!!" Or "I never fail!!!" And if you see yourself in everything you do this might trigger a kind of shame.

But if you can train yourself to stop seeing yourself in everything around you then you might find yourself able to accomplish more, not less, and when you reach an honest limitation, you'll be greeted by relief, not shame.

I hope you can become capable of that.

There's one defining feature that can make recognizing that limitation easier.

Either that person is honestly working to get themselves better, or looking for an excuse to stay sick.

Either way, there's no way to tell unless a person has room to decide to get well or sick themselves.

That choice that requires action that leaves no objective room to blame anyone else but themselves for their own failure, or joy for their own part in their own success.

There's no emptiness like not knowing what one is capable of. In that state of anxiety, a person might look for someone to blame who might have kept them from finding out.

How would you know if you're capable of loving someone with your whole heart if you'd never been tested that way?

How can you know if you're capable of facing death to protect those you love if you always used someone else as a human shield?

Trading karma with loved ones to get to a safer place is one thing. That's pragmatically exchanging strength so that everyone involved in a healthy way can make it.

That's a situation that offers an opportunity to chose to be a coward or warrior.

Hiding from your own responsibility from others you put in front of you just made you cowardly, nothing more.

Intelligence doesn't make you anything.

Courage does.


Edited by samowens84 (01/23/20 08:53 AM)

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#121328 - 01/23/20 09:21 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: samowens84]
samowens84 Offline
active member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 740
How I define an equal in my life isn't whether your accomplishments match mine, or whether mine match yours.

Equality in character is about how responsible and reliable a person is today, how well a person can respect me and have the same values as me as a behavior, not as a university degree or resume.


Your resume isn't an excuse to treat someone like shit, and means nothing to me in terms of friendship.

Each moment is a fresh start, and is a moment to decide to be your best.

With that in mind, a person inclined to list their accomplishments to me is often an indicator that person feels like half the person they used to be, and an excuse to be rude when rudeness was unnecessary.

Often people are something in between.

I've gotten to know some who looked like that on the surface but were always there when I needed them most.

Which adds to my belief that only you can decide your own worth.

Whether you decide to be your best or not is a decision only you would recognize.

Others only tend to see it too when your decision to be your best self made their life easier in some way.

And there isn't always a correlation with making someone's life easier and doing the right thing. And sometimes there is.

Meaning it's nearly impossible to recognize a persons soul from the outside looking in.

An interesting private decision. Nothing in your past or future nor anyone else can take that choice away from you.

Only results and the corresponding relief between two like souls seems to offer reliable understanding.


Edited by samowens84 (01/23/20 09:28 AM)

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#121329 - 01/23/20 10:00 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Czereda]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7210
Loc: Virginia
We have eyes Czereda.


Did you go back and read the Oath in context or not?

Do you think LaVey was speaking on literally killing Psychic Vampires? I figured if you had a coffin to rest in a while, you'd chill. You're the Undead.

Carry On...
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#121331 - 01/23/20 10:48 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Kori Houghton]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7210
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: o9a
1) Regarding, and treating, all mundanes (all who are not your pledged Satanic brothers or sisters) as the enemy.


 Originally Posted By: o9a
1) Those who are not our Satanic brothers or sisters are mundanes


 Originally Posted By: 09a
Our duty as Satanic individuals who live by the Code of Sinister-Honour is to be ready, willing, and able to defend ourselves, in any situation, and to be prepared to use lethal force to so defend ourselves.


 Originally Posted By: o9a
Our obligation as Satanic individuals who live by the Code of Sinister-Honour is to never willingly submit to any mundane; to die fighting rather than surrender to them; to die rather (if necessary by our own hand) than allow ourselves to be dishonourably humiliated by them.


I want to focus on these points for a moment. Say for example, only those in your family (included those married in) are your gang. If any outsider were to carry out an act of aggression, or try to harm your gang. Would you not fuck them up?

If say, those of your kind (Kindred) are out in the world doing mundane things like shopping, working, etc.; and the outsider seeks to be closer (i.e. make friends, romantic encounters, etc) do you right off the bat consider them your enemy and kill them? No, no you don't. You treat them as they are, the mundanes. That's it.

As time goes on, within your family/gang there are toxic elements. A relationship goes bad, trust and honor is broken, etc. Do you not cull those people out in a metaphorical way? Or, do you run to the gun cabinet and shoot them in the face and do what you're told visa vis the manual? Get real. That's the least Satanic thing I can imagine. And at this stage, I'd imagine most people know what's behind these texts, the players, and the motivations. That the rhetoric was so convicing, sheesh.

 Originally Posted By: o9a
Our Satanic duty as Satanic individuals who live by the Code of SinisterHonour is to settle our serious disputes, among ourselves, by either trial by combat, or by a duel involving deadly weapons; and to challenge to a duel anyone mundane, or one of our own kind who impugns our Satanic honour or who makes mundane accusations against us


Putting aside that people will have beliefs about what they are reading... ("OMG these people really mean what they write!", "This isn't propaganda at all!", "It's a real manual to become a real Satanist!", et.al); you don't think you're throwing the baby out with the bath water here? That there aren't both literal and metaphoric forms of culling within? That an Aeonic change can be not living by the code of society, and living with those, and by those that have inherent worth to your existence.

Consider how status quo it is to take care of a dying relative, even though they were shit to you their entires lives. Most people couldn't imagine just leaving them for dead. They would slave away and take care of them because it's their duty, obligation, or some such shit. Most people couldn't relate to walking away, or putting a pillow over their head. They don't think like you, they are the mundanes.


And it sure as shit ain't about being law-abiding, it's what people think they can get away with.
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