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#41127 - 07/31/10 12:03 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Raffy]
Simon Jester Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 36
I feel that murder is an appropriate course of action in a number of circumstances - self defence, retribution or for profit: if I were starving you might look quite appetizing etc. etc.

Killing for some rather vague ideological reasons seems pretty weak. An image of the Goth-dabbler-Ozzy-fan killing neighbourhood pets in the name of "The Great And Totally Badass Shuggoth" springs to mind.

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#41131 - 07/31/10 01:52 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
paolo sette Offline
member


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
 Quote:
OK, everybody had their go. A word of warning to everyone: either explain yourselves or prepare to be booted. This thread is now locked, since the apparent author of the original document doesn't want to explain any further. Please, let's not do the argument from intimidation again. It is a boring routine.

An example of what is most likely to happen, if you don't play by the rules and regulations in as much as this web-site is concerned. The moderators and administrators are always on the look out to "boot out" anyone that violates the code of conduct. I want to make a statement that evokes a parallel to this situation: such is Life, and all its vicissitudes. No matter the type of society whether democratic or fascist or any other, no matter the dictums that are in place for the many types of oligarchies; its all the same, constant controls that swarm like a grey and black cloud holding no shape or form just as One Force. This in no way is a remonstration against the power-wielding people of the 600 Club, rather its to applaude and congratulate you all for your tireless surveillance of innumerable posts that you scan!

With effort, a person is capable of feeling deep reverence and spiritual significance with the application of intellection even with controls of various sorts. Call it the human condition that allows a person to free oneself from the fetters or manacles of simply being alive by manipulating surroundings, and imparting actions of a Will. There are many ways to embark on a path, but members of the 600 Club hold Satanism as a companion to the forefront. For starters, a person must see and know him/herself before undertaking a proposed course which aspires to do correct things for the sake of the person. The length of the journey centers on what one desires to accomplish by feats of diverse proportion as to the seemingly arduous nature of the chosen path either short or long.
_________________________
tathagata-svapratyatma-aryajnana-adhigama
666
[nig]-ge-na-da a-ba in-da-di nam-ti i-u-tu

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#41139 - 07/31/10 08:16 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: ]
Raffy Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Chicago
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
The only conclusion illustrated in this thread: that the philosophy of the ONA is the philosophy of criminality.

Since you have never answered questions relating to law and authority - and never defined what you mean by criminality - your conclusion seems irrelevant.

The ONA is the philosophy of the sinister way - that is, of amorality and individuality, where the individual makes their own morality or decides what morality, if any, to adopt. They do not just accept the morality, and the laws and the authority, of others, of mundane society.

 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
I actually think you may be mentally ill, like psychopathic, based on what you have typed here. I am strongly suggesting, in the most sincere terms, that you seek psychiatric advice for your possible illness.

Those of sagacity will smile at this presumption \:\)


 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
It is unethical to cull innocent people, do you understand?

Since you have never defined what you mean by "unethical" and "innocent" what is there to understand?

But I guess your understanding of unethical and innocent is the same as that of mundanes \:\)

Have you or the many others who describe themselves as "satanists" but who seem to parrot mundane propaganda about ethics, ever even rationally, objectively, considered the orgin of so-called "good and evil"?
_________________________
Those who are not our sinister brothers or sisters are mundanes

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#41140 - 07/31/10 08:31 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I agree it is rather awkward to base one's religion or philosophy on Satan and then proclaim he's really just some sort of Robin Hood but one that doesn't kill foes and doesn't steal from the rich either. He's just a nice guy in tights taking strolls in the woods with Marian.

If you take that what is evil and give it a central position in your ideas, you can maybe consider it good yourself but you'll never be able to convince the rest out there. To a degree it reminds me a bit of the Pedo-Party, officially and euphemistically called the "Party for Neighbourly Love, Freedom, and Diversity" in the Netherlands who, not surprisingly, didn't get that many votes.
As such, seeing Satanists out there trying to do their best convincing the mass that we're not that bad is what I see as an exercise in futility. I can understand their frustration when other people, at the same time, promote the idea that Satanism can be evil but the real frustration doesn't lay as much in the fact that people hinder their self-imposed goal but in the problem every saviour will encounter; some people just don't want to be saved. If someone wants their Satan to be sweet and fluffy, more power to them. Just don't add me to the numbers.

A reason why I am leaning more and more to using the Devil in my manner of thinking; people can try to change Satan into some sort of Promethean light-bringer but it is pretty hard to do that with the Devil.

I find the subject of culling important. Not as much to debate about the practical side but because the position people have towards it shows a key point in their understanding of Satanism.

Practically, all conversation about it should be avoided. First because it would not be a smart thing to do, second because none has to prove anything to another. And even if someone desired to do so; this is a world of words and statements, unless you can provide evidence in newspaper clippings or crime scene pictures while you are doing the act, it won't be interpreted as evidence. If you would provide such evidence, we'd be back to reason one again. While you are stating your case, Officer Frank is probably ringing the doorbell to put you away for a very long time.

In real life it is different however. If you make claims towards your peers, you'll inevitable might have to back them up one day. A while ago I experienced a small example of this. There was this guy in town who was always talking about how bad-ass he was and how most people were scared of him. It might be true you know, not that he scared me but still. One day I enter a pub and see him and another in rather explosive situation. He sees me entering, turns to me and tells me how this other guy is trying to start a fight. I told him that if the guy bothers him enough, he should kick his ass or at least try to. That didn't really happen. It turned out our "bad-ass" shit his pants and ran home. In this case you can take shit his pants literal, it was indeed what happened. Needless to say I have very little respect for him since then.
In real life I only associate myself with people that are what they say they are. I don't need to ask them for evidence of it, they provide it in the way they live. Very often little needs to be said anyways, one knows. On the internet it is a different ballgame and because evidence is so futile here, I judge them by the way they think. It's not that hard to recognize your own kind.

Still, like I said, the subject of culling is important. To me, the position towards it signifies the mastery of the concept of autotheism. The question is not really if someone decides to cull or not, or for what reasons, as it is the acceptance that it is ok to cull if someone desires to do so.
To take it down to a less complex level, we have to talk about "crime" itself. Anyone of us broke the law at some point in time. We either stole a mars bar in a store, were speeding, evading taxes, drunk driving, underage drinking or enjoying the pleasantries of certain herbs or chemicals. Even when we all did something of that nature, most of us will defend it by saying it was harmless. Indeed it more than often was but what matters in it being harmless is not that it is a minor or neglectable crime but the very fact that we consider it harmless. We do define ourselves that it is harmless and as such, we do break the law when we consider it appropriate. At that level, authority shifts from the outside towards the inside. We become the authority that decides what we can or will do and what not. We are the god of our own universe. As such, from stealing a mars bar to doing an armed robbery is not too different. Of course it is considering the risk, punishment and rewards but the judgment of a robbery is identical to that of stealing the mars bar. If you decide it is ok, it is ok, no matter what others think or what an outside authority tries to tell you. As such, culling is subject to the same principle.

In perspectivism one rebuilds their own realm and gives meaning to everything in it. We do not only define our own morals, we also define everything according to its worth. As such, we are not controlled by the current force of egalitarianism and neither by their definitions of laws or morals. We can define who is dross and are perfectly allowed to promote their removal, no matter what others think or say. At times it is the perfectly sensible thing to do.

I don't know if I told this story before but in a neighbouring country one guy's son gets stabbed by another and dies. The father patiently waits for a couple of years until the murder is released, buys a gun and shoots him. "This guy isn't going to kill anyone's son any more" were his words. From different perspectives we can easily turn this deed into a wrong but most of us "feel" the father did the right thing. We can justify his act. Some of us would do something identical when one of our loved ones would be subject to something similar. Again, we do this justification based upon our own principles, based upon our own feelings. It is in our tribal nature to remove that what damages the tribe. Societies consider it the worst sin or crime for a multitude of reasons. One of these is that if people were allowed to remove that what damages the "tribe", rulers would be very very nervous people. As such, they prefer that authority does the culling, who is assumed to know better than us what is good for us. We prefer to disagree on this.

After all, we consider ourselves our own authority.

D.

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#41141 - 07/31/10 08:32 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: The Zebu]
Raffy Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Chicago
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Regarding Satanism and criminality, some issues need to be clarified.

Agreed - and thanks for the interesting and sagacious post.

I'd say you have to go back to basics, to ground zero, and consider who makes something "criminal" and why; and whether or not something called "good" and "evil" really exist or if they are just abstract ideas projected onto reality by humans, in some attempt to manufacture a certain type of society.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
My general problem with the ONA's idea of "culling" is they seem to emphasize that it is something that all of their initiates should do, as if it is some kind of religious duty.

I quite understand why some might think this - but as I've tried to show here (probably not that well), it's just an option; a choice available to individuals.

An option deriving from the a-moral (unethical) nature of the ONA way, where nothing is forbidden and there are no restrictions placed on individuals. Where there are no prescribed boundaries - and where exeatic experiences are positively encouraged as a means of personal and Occult learning.

So, if some want to indulge in culling - the ONA says: OK, that's fine; it's your choice. The ONA also says: for those who might want to, go ahead and cull a mundane or two, for you might learn something, and might find it an exulting experience.

This is in opposition to what every other LHP or Satanic group says.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
The reality is that murder...

Is a rather pejorative term. Who defines what is "murder", and why?
_________________________
Those who are not our sinister brothers or sisters are mundanes

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#41148 - 07/31/10 12:23 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: ]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3114
 Quote:
The only conclusion illustrated in this thread: that the philosophy of the ONA is the philosophy of criminality. There is no greatness in that work.

Philosophy of criminiality? Hardly so, from the things I've read they are, to me at least, not that shocking or mind-blowing evil as some would claim.
If you want to look at some real 'criminal' looking writings I suggest taking a look at Combat 18 and B&H (once wrote a few articles for the Belgian group). While my contributions there would have included a more intellectual approach and reasoning about various racial subjects, other writers were not that nice and I have known some who 'crossed the line' (brought to trial and sentenced to prison for a few weeks by "promoting hate"). Belief me when I say they can track you down...

The greatness lies withing the writings and the confrontational attitude ONA has. But it can be worse if looking at the right places..

 Quote:
Daffy, I actually think you may be mentally ill, like psychopathic, based on what you have typed here. I am strongly suggesting, in the most sincere terms, that you seek psychiatric advice for your possible illness.

From what I view he is only a bit "less-informed". But that would be about it. It's not because his writings touched your emotional snare and crossed your "holy lines" he automatically becomes mentally ill or psychopatic.
And at least show some respect and write his name right.

 Quote:
Most people aren't mundane, they are hard working and are contributing to their society in a positive way.

I know really know some off-board idiots who are also hard-working and give a positive contribution to society. But they only do so because they still have enough intelligence to realise they would be fucked if they didn't do so.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#41176 - 08/01/10 12:02 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Raffy]
Clarence Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 61
 Quote:
An option deriving from the a-moral (unethical) nature of the ONA way, where nothing is forbidden and there are no restrictions placed on individuals. Where there are no prescribed boundaries - and where exeatic experiences are positively encouraged as a means of personal and Occult learning.


 Quote:
So, if some want to indulge in culling - the ONA says: OK, that's fine; it's your choice. The ONA also says: for those who might want to, go ahead and cull a mundane or two, for you might learn something, and might find it an exulting experience.


 Quote:
This is in opposition to what every other LHP or Satanic group says.


I'm not at all inclined to disagree... However, it seems as though you're suggesting that the ONA has a monopoly on this train of thought, and that the sanction of some group or order is necessary for an individual to explore some of their personal liberties: JOIN US to know thyself???

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#41183 - 08/01/10 03:29 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Clarence]
Raffy Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Chicago
 Originally Posted By: Clarence
However, it seems as though you're suggesting that the ONA has a monopoly on this train of thought,

No, not at all - although I can understand why some might think this. You have to get beyond the provocative exoteric propaganda that the ONA uses sometimes - "the fighting talk", which is intended, to, well, to be provocative and encourage one to think "exeactically".

See beyond the outer, the exoteric, to the esoteric essence. Which is basically, in this instance, a-morality and individuality (the true freedom of the individual), which point one toward making one's own judgements and not blindly accepting the morality, and thus the laws, of what has come to be called "society".

In truth, this sort of stuff about culling belongs to all Satanists and all Left Hand Paths - or, rather, should belong to them, because it's expresses their amoral essence, their defiant individuality. So, it's not exclusive to the ONA, or should not be.

That is has become so, seems to me at least a bad reflection on some Satanists and the LHP in general.

It's just seems so amazing to me how many how call themselves Satanists, or followers of some LHP, just don't critically think about ethics, and laws, and morality in general - and so often just tend to accept the conventional morality of mundanes evident in the society around us. Thus they consider themselves "law abiding citizens", or whatever, and so talk and write about the need to "obey the law of the land".

Whose law? Why such obedience? What is real justice? Who defines what is a crime and why? - and all the many similar questions that should be asked.
_________________________
Those who are not our sinister brothers or sisters are mundanes

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#41190 - 08/01/10 04:34 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Raffy]
Caliga Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 16
Face to face is a challenge I have issued recently in fact. Tonight at midnight, once and for all, to an erstwhile cowardly foe. I wonder if they will turn up or lose all credibility?

Edited by Caliga (08/01/10 04:35 AM)
Edit Reason: Typo

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#41196 - 08/01/10 09:24 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Caliga]
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
I am actually growing in favor of this thread. It has gotten me to think about society's laws, morality and amorality. To me in my own opinion, when you get down to it, the laws of the land are somewhat necessary. I'm the type of person that will be nice to any who are nice to me. But let's take murder for example, I'm happy there are laws to help prevent some idiot from trying to kill me or my loved ones. But if the idiot does kill my loved ones I will counter with self-defense and/or utilize the laws so the idiot is put to death.

To sum up: a sort of "live and let live" state with freedom at it's core, and if a person infringes upon my freedom (murder) I will destroy them by self-defense or the law.

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#41199 - 08/01/10 10:17 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Lamar]
Raffy Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Chicago
 Originally Posted By: Lamar
I am actually growing in favor of this thread. It has gotten me to think about society's laws, morality and amorality.

Excellent!

Satanic culling - by Satanic individuals (by "our kind") - can be considered to be (1) an act of natural justice; a restoration of Satanic (sinister) balance; and (2) the practical and the necessary application of our individual Satanic judgement.

Thus, in some particular circumstances, "we take matters into our own hands" because we believe that this is the necessary, the Satanic, thing to do - and because it is, in such circumstances, our responsibility to so act. To leave such action to mundanes - and the systems they have created - is to abnegate our responsibility and to descend down to their mundane level.

For let's face it, when the chips are down we do believe (or should believe) that we're better than them, than those mundanes, than those who do not have our Satanic character.
_________________________
Those who are not our sinister brothers or sisters are mundanes

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#41201 - 08/01/10 11:02 AM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Raffy]
Caliga Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 16
Well my challenged was a no-show. They took matters into their own hands ... and bowed rather than face honourably. Life goes on.
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#41202 - 08/01/10 12:57 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Raffy]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Raffy

.. (2) the practical and the necessary application of our individual Satanic judgement.

.. we believe that this is the necessary, the Satanic, thing to do - and because it is, in such circumstances, our responsibility..

.. to so act. To leave such action to mundanes - and the systems they have created - is to abnegate our responsibility and to descend down to their mundane level.

..we do believe (or should believe) that we're better than them, than those mundanes, than those who do not have our Satanic character.



Here is the thing. You are sitting there telling us how this sinister way separates you from 'mundanes', presumably because they are automatons and slaves to external dictates rather than their own masters, yet at the same to you continue to act as if there is some imperative to do things a certain way, while handing us the the very sort of external dictates you seem to be rallying against. Do you not see why this is problematic?

That I am my own god, and craft my own morality and even sometimes my own justice is a concept seated firmly within myself, and when I read these sorts of things instructing me how I 'should' act or how I 'should' feel about this or that, I feel like I need a shovel to dig through the massive pile of hypocrisy you are presenting.

It seems to me you are just one more idealist in a long line of idealists that don't like the world as it is, and instead want to struggle and flop like a fish out of water.

I am active every day actually living and doing what I believe. I can't help but think this is all just hollow posturing on your part..unless you are posting from a prison or are some sort of fugitive or serial killer. None of these options make me particularly inclined to offer you respect. Unless you are sitting atop a pile of skulls right now, you are nothing but a poser.
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ADM
ideological vandal

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#41203 - 08/01/10 02:01 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Raffy]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I define murder as the intentional killing of a person.

Self-defense is murder. So is capital punishment. And so would culling be.

 Quote:
Satanic culling - by Satanic individuals (by "our kind") - can be considered to be (1) an act of natural justice; a restoration of Satanic (sinister) balance; and (2) the practical and the necessary application of our individual Satanic judgement.


It would be natural justice whether the person was killed or not. Nature is what happens; it cannot be aided or hastened because any attempt to do so is merely another manifestation of nature, regardless of whether it goes with or against apparent "trends".

Let's take another stab in the dark and assume that somewhere out there, one or two people actually do put their money where their mouth is, and test and cull opfers on a regular basis without any trace whatsoever. (I'm being generous). Now, for every "Satanic Culler" there is likely to be a hundred-million opfer-eligible cull-ees who will keep on spreading. And meanwhile the world is rapidly becoming infested with overbreeding morons who multiply that number even more regularly.

The ONA like to picture this as "trimming the herd" as if it is a form of effective population control to keep the mundanes at acceptable levels, but it's more like the equivalent of a toddler going at an overgrown ten-acre plot of weeds with safety-scissors thinking he's helping to keep the grass neat.

I have problem with culling- not the morality of it, but the irrelevance of it, and how loudly they draw attention to it, when culling a person would be such an incredible rarity were it ever to happen. This isn't just a matter of "mundanes" getting preoccupied with the sensitive topic of murder; a disproportionate amount of ONA attention is dedicated towards their murder-fantasies.

HOWEVER... the ONA's stance on culling, in addition to occasional neofascist sympathies, isn't my principle disagreement; they are merely red herrings that people get hung up over. Their attention towards culling, though, belies a serious need for a good metaphorical whiff of proverbial coffee... honestly:

-The "Acausal" is simply another quasi-quantum-physics God-of-the-Gaps excuse to fill the void of our scientific understanding with ego-gratifying mystic mumbo-jumbo, albeit with cooler-sounding terms like "nexion."

-Quartz tetrahedrons are pretty, but they don't serve any cosmic purpose, especially physically presencing Atazoth. I liked "Shambler from the Stars" too, but there's a limit to these kinds of things.

-Like their MSS point out, the ONA has a rich and powerful mythos that doesn't need a historically-accurate basis to be valid... but then again turning around and making historically-sensitive statements like the mythological antiquity of a feminine Baphomet is trying to have your cake and eat it too.

-Sentient extradimensional beings do not manifest themselves on earth. There is no physical nexion behind Saturn either, or wherever the old guard thought such flying teapots existed.

-Ritually slaughtering a bunch of people and then dangling crystals over their heads before blowing yourself up isn't going to make you into an immortal acausal being ala the Grimoire of Baphomet.

The ONA is much more eloquent than your average devil-worshiping rabble of moody teenagers, and they have much better and useful ideas, but their metaphysics are just as retarded. You could simply say I don't have any "acausal empathy", so I just "don't get it", but that would be falling back on silly beggings-of-the-question that Christians, New Agers, and other reason-impaired people use as euphemisms for suspending rational judgment. (Granted, ONA people don't explicitly push it on others, but I still can't help but critique the odd bombastic pedestal they put themselves on.)

There is a difference between using hyperbolic illustration to prove a point, and just plain being full of shit... (or only partially full of shit, as is the ONA's case). Stylistic restraint and a good old-fashioned dose of sobering realism can be useful from time to time.


Edited by The Zebu (08/01/10 02:09 PM)
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«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#41204 - 08/01/10 02:19 PM Re: ONA and Culling [Re: Dan_Dread]
Raffy Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Chicago
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
It seems to me you are ...nothing but a poser...the massive pile of hypocrisy you are presenting.

While you are....making assumptions about someone you do not know, and possibly indulging in argumentum ad hominem.

But, no sweat.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
None of these options make me particularly inclined to offer you respect

Respect from others is irrelevant, whether they know one personally, or not. One is simply trying to exeatically explore what seems to be, still, something of a taboo among those who claim adherence to a certain Occult path.

If this is understand (and it seems to be, by some) - fine. If not, I'm not bothered. Life goes on.
_________________________
Those who are not our sinister brothers or sisters are mundanes

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