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#42645 - 08/30/10 03:16 PM The Daemonic Self
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
On another thread, I quoted Dr.LaVey,

"If man insists on externalizing his true self in the form of "God", then why fear his true self, in
fearing "God", - why praise his true self in praising "God", - why remain externalized from
"God" IN ORDER TO ENGAGE IN RITUAL AND RELIGIOUS CEREMONY IN HIS NAME?
Man needs ritual and dogma, but no law states that an externalized god is necessary in order
to engage in ritual and ceremony performed in a god's name! Could it be that when he closes
the gap between himself and his "God" he sees the demon of pride creeping forth - that very
embodiment of Lucifer appearing in his midst? He no longer can view himself in two parts,
the carnal and the spiritual, but sees them merge as one, and then to his abysmal horror,
discovers that they are only the carnal - AND ALWAYS WERE! Then he either hates himself to death,
day by day - or rejoices that he is what he is!
If he hates himself, he searches out new and more complex spiritual paths of "enlightenment"
in hopes that he may split himself up again in his quest for stronger and more externalized
"gods" to scourge his poor miserable shell. If he accepts himself, but recognizes that ritual and
ceremony are the important devices that his invented religions have utilized to sustain his
faith in a lie, then it is the SAME FORM OF RITUAL that will sustain his faith in the truth - the
primitive pageantry that will give his awareness of his own majestic being added substance."


and Jake responded,
“WEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLL now.... of course, taking this passage from The Satanic Bible might make it seem like LaVey is four-square into "something out there," and man trying to tap into it. Yea, this is the way to ENLIGHTENMENT... but those of us who've been around the block once or twice remember that there is a paragraph beyond this that reads,

"When all religious faith in lies has waned, it is because man has become closer to himself and farther from "God"; closer to the "Devil." If this is what the devil represents, and a man lives his life in the devil's fane, with the sinews of Satan moving in his flesh, then he either escapes from the cacklings and carpings of the righteous, or stands proudly in his secret places of the earth and manipulates the folly-ridden masses through his own Satanic might, until that day when he may come forth in splendor proclaiming "I AM A SATANIST! BOW DOWN, FOR I AM THE HIGHEST EMBODIMENT OF HUMAN LIFE!"




Well it comes down to the essence of the human ego.
As Jake pointed out, some may wrongly interpret Dr.LaVey's words to imply that there is something "out there" to connect to.
That in my opinion, is one reason why we have all these different religions and practices: they tapped into their own minds, their own ego, and did not get it (like Dr.LaVey writes), and externalized it into a god or gods.
Satanism is different in that the Satanist realizes that the energy he is raising in ritual magic, that may appear to be "out there" is really "in here", and is just a manifestation of his ego, or will.
He may accept this truth ( that yes, it really is all coming from the mind and not from "out there"), or he may not be able to bear the responsibility for it and externalize his previously subconscious elements of his ego into imagined separate forces that impose and control him. Those in the latter camp will find no shortage of con men who offer their “services” to interpret the “will of god” or what have you.
Within The Compleat Witch, later published as The Satanic Witch, Dr. LaVey provides a model for understanding the human ego. One of the aspects of the ego is the Demonic Self. The Demonic Self is the hidden self of each individual that contains characteristics that are normally not consciously exercised in the world. Besides being a Lesser Magic tool (explained in The Satanic Witch) to understand and manipulate others via your understanding of their frustrated subconscious aspirations, the Demonic Self can also be used to bridge the conscious and subconscious mind.

The Demonic self can be seen as a representation of the subconscious mind itself and can be a reservoir of unlimited power.
The concept of the Demonic Self seems to have been a constant force in mankind’s religious and psychological development. The word Demonic originates from the Greek word daimonikos, itself derived from daimon, which is a god or spirit.

An examination of the beliefs and traditions of ancient peoples yields the persistence of the idea of a protective aspect of the ego, sometimes being contra sexual ( as is the case with Dr.LaVey's interpretation) . To the Ancient Egyptians , it was called the Ka, and to the Germanics, the Fylgia . Traditionally, it was said that only great kings and magicians were able to bond themselves to their Daemon. The great philosopher Socrates was said be in contact with his Daemon.

With the advent of Christianity, the notion of an individual protective nurturing force that accompanied each individual from birth to death, became externalized from the ego, relegated to the demonic and Satanic.

Greater Magic can be understood as a conscious exercising of the Demonic Self. In other words, the Satan you are calling up in ritual and "tapping into" is nothing more and nothing less than the previously hidden potential of your own mind.

The demonic Self is not a "spiritual" or supernatural entity but a conceptual tool to give form to an aspect of the ego whose inherit qualities are either subdued, ignored, or externally projected as some supernatural force or being by non Satanists.
The Demonic self is also not something that you find or conjure up just in the ritual chamber; it is an aspect of the mind that is always present, it is what is called the Subjective Universe. Greater Magic can just serve to illustrate it, or simply put, to show you it is there. You may not need such an experience (ritual magic) to gain awareness of the demonic self, or you may need to have it revealed to you again and again in ritual. It is a natural aspect of the ego, which can be incorporated into the moment to moment conscious existence of the Satanist.


" The rites in this book call the names of devils-devils of all
shapes, sizes and inclinations. The names are used with deliberate
and appreciative awareness, for if one can pull aside the
curtain of fear and enter the Kingdom of Shadows, the eyes
will soon become accustomed and many strange and wonderful
truths will be seen."---
Anton LaVey, _The Satanic Rituals_


_________________________
seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42649 - 08/30/10 03:56 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
That in my opinion, is one reason why we have all these different religions and practices: they tapped into their own minds, their own ego, and did not get it (like Dr.LaVey writes), and externalized it into a god or gods.
Satanism is different in that the Satanist realizes that the energy he is raising in ritual magic, that may appear to be "out there" is really "in here", and is just a manifestation of his ego, or will.

1) The reason of having different religions and practices seems to me a result as a search for the understanding of nature and our place in it. Not so much of "tapping our own ego and not getting it". My best guess for the words of peace religions describe is also of a result for attempts of distinction from the "animal nature" inside and futile attempts in trying to opress it. This means there is an understanding of the ego, but a fear of lowering oneself towards mans own true carnal nature.
Besides, who said LaVey was right and is the end line?

 Quote:
The Demonic self can be seen as a representation of the subconscious mind itself and can be a reservoir of unlimited power.

Unlimited power ey? Might I consider taking a small test if you are bullet-proof with that "unlimited-power".
Don't get too high up there sonny-boy, you are exagerrating.

 Quote:
With the advent of Christianity, the notion of an individual protective nurturing force that accompanied each individual from birth to death, became externalized from the ego, relegated to the demonic and Satanic.

You clearly never heard of spirit guides and the use of Angels within Abhramic religions which suit the same purpose as a "protective nurturing force".. Fuck, even the concept of "God" covers it.

Looks like you progressed a bit in understanding it. Now you just have to get yourself rid of the flashy terms and come back down to the world of rationality and non-wooish speech.


Edited by Dimitri (08/30/10 04:13 PM)
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#42650 - 08/30/10 05:15 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Duende

Greater Magic can be understood as a conscious exercising of the Demonic Self. In other words, the Satan you are calling up in ritual and "tapping into" is nothing more and nothing less than the previously hidden potential of your own mind.


How do you know?

I guess I should elaborate so it's not a one liner.

How can you speak in certain terms about things that are uncertain? If you're offering an opinion about what GM might be then I can go along with it. If you're offering a solution and an explanation (as suggested by your use of "is") then I , for one, am not on board.


Edited by Fnord (08/30/10 05:20 PM)
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Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#42651 - 08/30/10 05:44 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Fnord]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
 Originally Posted By: Duende

Greater Magic can be understood as a conscious exercising of the Demonic Self. In other words, the Satan you are calling up in ritual and "tapping into" is nothing more and nothing less than the previously hidden potential of your own mind.


How do you know?

I guess I should elaborate so it's not a one liner.

How can you speak in certain terms about things that are uncertain? If you're offering an opinion about what GM might be then I can go along with it. If you're offering a solution and an explanation (as suggested by your use of "is") then I , for one, am not on board.



What "uncertain" "things" are you referring to?
_________________________
seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42656 - 08/30/10 09:35 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Greater Magic and the exact engine that makes it function.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#42657 - 08/30/10 09:39 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I believe LaVey was referring to how opposites attract, particularly how physical opposites attract, when he was discussing the self and the demonic self in The Compleat Witch. For instance a 3 o clock male has the demonic core of a 9 o clock woman and that is a reason why 3 o clock males tend to be attracted to 9 o clock witches.

I am not sure that LaVey intended to have his theory of the demonic self equated with a notion such as the subjective universe, as if one was somehow generated or derived from the other.

I am also not sure whether LaVey intended to have his theory of the demonic self equated with the notion of the subconscious.

Also something else has occurred to me. If the LaVey quote mentioned at the very outset of this thread is an attempt to highlight the way human beings deceive themselves by externalising parts of themselves, or dividing themselves up into spiritual as opposed to carnal, or animal etc., then isn’t the division between conscious and subconscious, or conscious and unconscious a similar sort of procedure?

Wouldn’t one aspect of Greater Magic then be ritual and ceremony to celebrate the complete undivided carnal man called a Satanist?

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#42659 - 08/30/10 10:43 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: ]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
I believe LaVey was referring to how opposites attract, particularly how physical opposites attract, when he was discussing the self and the demonic self in The Compleat Witch. For instance a 3 o clock male has the demonic core of a 9 o clock woman and that is a reason why 3 o clock males tend to be attracted to 9 o clock witches.

He was.

I am not sure that LaVey intended to have his theory of the demonic self equated with a notion such as the subjective universe, as if one was somehow generated or derived from the other.

He didn't.

I am also not sure whether LaVey intended to have his theory of the demonic self equated with the notion of the subconscious.

He didn't.



Thank you for saving me the time to write a detailed posting on how people who have a theory that they wish to attach to some conceptual image in their head based on something that LaVey wrote to at least READ THE BOOK and UNDERSTAND IT before pulling said theories out of their ass. I mean, really... the demonic core is covered quite well in the few pages in which it's implications WITHIN THE CONTEXT of The Compleat Witch (or The Satanic Witch for those of you in the cheap seats) is presented.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#42694 - 08/31/10 10:36 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Jake999]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999


Thank you for saving me the time to write a detailed posting on how people who have a theory that they wish to attach to some conceptual image in their head based on something that LaVey wrote to at least READ THE BOOK and UNDERSTAND IT before pulling said theories out of their ass. I mean, really... the demonic core is covered quite well in the few pages in which it's implications WITHIN THE CONTEXT of The Compleat Witch (or The Satanic Witch for those of you in the cheap seats) is presented.


LaVey's conception of a "demonic" contra sexual "opposite" aspect of the ego is not a new one, although his suggested use of it, is(as written in The Compleat Witch).
The idea of a "demonic" or daemonic self has quite a history, that some might find useful in perusing.
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seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42695 - 08/31/10 10:39 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Fnord]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Greater Magic and the exact engine that makes it function.



Greater Magic works through changing your perception.
Are you alluding to some mechanics beyond the psychological? ;\)
_________________________
seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42696 - 08/31/10 11:01 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: ]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1

Also something else has occurred to me. If the LaVey quote mentioned at the very outset of this thread is an attempt to highlight the way human beings deceive themselves by externalising parts of themselves, or dividing themselves up into spiritual as opposed to carnal, or animal etc., then isn’t the division between conscious and subconscious, or conscious and unconscious a similar sort of procedure?

Wouldn’t one aspect of Greater Magic then be ritual and ceremony to celebrate the complete undivided carnal man called a Satanist?


As to "one aspect of Greater Magic" being a celebration of the undivided self; I would say that it is.
You can use words such as conscious and subconscious, which are conveniences, to refer to parts of the undivided whole (the ego).
Sometimes, the "parts" may not be doing the work they are supposed to, causing a sense of disharmony within the self.

I think Greater Magic demonstrates the "parts" working as a whole, as does every other event in your life outside the ritual chamber. In GM, you get to create a personal pocket universe, that you can control and step back from, and observe.

I recognize that my ego includes both my sense of self ( the "I") and the Other (the world I perceive). One requires the other. Both are parts of the greater whole that is my ego, which emerges from my brain, within my skull.

This is the "complete undivided carnal man" as I understand it at the moment.
_________________________
seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42697 - 08/31/10 11:13 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Duende


LaVey's conception of a "demonic" contra sexual "opposite" aspect of the ego is not a new one, although his suggested use of it, is(as written in The Compleat Witch).
The idea of a "demonic" or daemonic self has quite a history, that some might find useful in perusing.


Then do not try to glom onto LaVey's name as some kind of authority for your own take on the concepts. Cite you other references for it and do not try to conflate LaVey's demonic core as in The Compleat Witch with some other source for which you have some affinity. What you are talking about has NOTHING to do with LaVey's conceptualization of magic, nor does it have anything to do with his personality profiling, as put forth in The Compleat Witch.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#42698 - 08/31/10 11:38 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Jake999]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
I wonder if Duende's take on the Daimonic Self bears some relation to Carl Jung's theory of the anima and animus, respectively the hidden/unacknowledged/repressed female in the male and male in the female. This "opposite" must be discovered and integrated into the psyche in order for what Jung calls "individuation" to take place and the mature fully human person to emerge. He referred in his research to 18th century European occult writings on Alchemy, where the "base metal" of human existence is transformed into "gold" by the Mystical Marriage of (and thereby, extinction of)those qualities falsely perceived as dualities. Only the Adept is able to achieve this, out of the very few people who would even have the desire or will to attempt it.
I understand Dr LaVey's theory of attraction of the "usual" (?) self to the daemonically opposite "other" as referring purely to carnal matters. ( I sincerely hope that intellectual opposites do not attract as I have no wish to draw morons to me. ;)) However, maybe there is some Jungian influence in the Doctor's work? His (Jung's) "Man and His Symbols" was reissued in the 1970's and the anima/animus theory may well have interested him as a theory of how and why humans look for their ideal partner.
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"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#42700 - 08/31/10 11:57 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: felixgarnet]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I have a feeling you might be correct, Felix. The Jungian model would have much more of a relationship to his ideas than anything LaVey ever wrote... but then, why not cite a source that actually makes sense, rather than one that might sound good on a Satanic board?

LaVey was definitely aware of Freud and Jung and I'm certain that he'd read quite a bit of both before penning The Compleat Witch, but then that would be expected. Although in LaVey's analyses of the interpersonal (carnal and intellectual) relationships that occur between men and women, a lot of it came from his personal observations of the behaviors of men and women in various situations. It was always an eye opener to be in a public place with him and have him point out the subtleties of things going on around us... I still refer to The Compleat Witch today and recommend it to my "witchy associates."
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#42702 - 09/01/10 12:02 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I have been guilty of this I have to honestly say. (My apologies to you Jake)

In the past I have tended to take LaVey’s work and have tried to change it to suit the personal point of view or thesis I was trying to put forward.

What should be done (I think) is that one should put their point of view or thesis forward first, and then draw on the works of others to support the point of view or thesis being put forward.

The work being draw on to support a point of view or thesis shouldn’t be altered at all. That is, as Jake has said in the past, a piece of intellectual dishonesty.

I think one can comment on someone else’s work. Hell I certainly have, but it is imperative that people actually do the heavy lifting to try understand that work correctly and then comment on it as it is.

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#42861 - 09/07/10 05:06 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: ]
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
So you are saying the Demonic Self can be equated to the subconscious mind and can bridge the conscious mind? I have never looked at it in that way or made that connection. I find this interesting and perhaps something to think on.

On another note some of the things about Greater Magic and ritual you have stated, I share the same view point such as "Greater Magic can be understood as a conscious exercising of the Demonic Self. In other words, the Satan you are calling up in ritual and 'tapping into' is nothing more and nothing less than the previously hidden potential of your own mind." This especially has been shown in the works of Michael W Ford and a practice I've been undertaking for quite sometime. As I have stated in other threads, the Archetypes you put yourself in league with relates to the aspects of the mind. For me this is but one avenue of magic. Very interesting topic you have posted.

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