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#42864 - 09/07/10 09:30 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Duende
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Greater Magic and the exact engine that makes it function.



Greater Magic works through changing your perception.
Are you alluding to some mechanics beyond the psychological? ;\)


I'm saying that there does certainly appear to be an unknown quantity in the universe ('balancing factor in nature' ... or insert your own name for it) and all of your laborious typing doesn't do anything to explain anything other than your own understanding of what *you* think GM is.

The way you construct your sentences with definitive terms is annoying to me because it makes you sound like a know it all when you, in fact, are not. Describing esoteric ideas in definitive terms like A=B is best left to the white lighters IMHO.

Beware the hubris, embrace doubt.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#42871 - 09/07/10 07:12 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Fnord]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Fnord

I'm saying that there does certainly appear to be an unknown quantity in the universe ('balancing factor in nature' ... or insert your own name for it) and all of your laborious typing doesn't do anything to explain anything other than your own understanding of what *you* think GM is.


What leads you to think that there "certainly appear to be an unknown quantity in the universe"?

What evidence has persuaded you to entertain such a possibility?

Duende AKA Mr.Not-Know-It-All
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seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42880 - 09/08/10 10:21 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Duende

What leads you to think that there "certainly appear to be an unknown quantity in the universe"?

What evidence has persuaded you to entertain such a possibility?


I have done ritual magic and have gotten some rather uncanny results that would appear to go beyond simply convincing myself that it worked. I have spoken with a few other GM practitioners who have achieved much, and who view GM as something more than a simple mental bowel cleanse.

In and of itself, of course, it's possible that coincidence is a factor in my own experience, but it all leads to doubting and questioning.

Doubt, in fact, is a key factor in my world view. There is very little that is 'known' that is of any real value. History books, for example, were written by the victors, yet we have a system that pays people to dispense 'history' as fact. I've studied too much to accept the presented one sided stories as all that is necessary to know. Similar can be said for most topics of 'acceptable' study.

When I say there does appear to be an unknown quantity in the universe, I mean simply that. I'm not alluding to some 'entity' like you would undoubtedly like for me to do. Something causes life. Something causes dead tissue to live and something allows and promotes the propagation of life in every possible (however improbable) environment. Conversely, something, perhaps the same something, promotes death and decay. We don't understand the origins/mechanics of it at all nor do we understand the cycles it runs in. All we can do is attempt to observe it and attempt to affect small changes via science or via magic.

On a larger scale, we don't know our place in the universe or what the universe is comprised of or where its boundaries might lie or how it came to be. We don't really even know our place on the planet, nor do we even come close to understanding our own historical context here on earth. We have no idea, beyond theory, what's in the deepest crevasses of the oceans or in the deepest unexplored jungles (or under the ice in Antarctica). We're discovering new species of animals every day and we're rendering yesterday's truths obsolete by the minute and still there are those who feel confident to speak with authority on things as if we haven't proven in the past that what we're really good at is making shit up.

So, yeah, in a nutshell I think (though I also doubt it) that there is some mystery around the workings of greater magic. I think ASLV felt the same way about it since he said that if a practitioner were to recognize a result he/she should acknowledge it even if they don't fully understand it.

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Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#42882 - 09/08/10 10:58 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Fnord]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Quote:
I have done ritual magic and have gotten some rather uncanny results that would appear to go beyond simply convincing myself that it worked. I have spoken with a few other GM practitioners who have achieved much, and who view GM as something more than a simple mental bowel cleanse.

Such as?
It is also ill-advised and borderline stupid to ask explanations from self-referring sources. Kinda like saying the bible speaks the truth because it has been written in the book itself it speaks the truth..

 Quote:
Doubt, in fact, is a key factor in my world view.

Doubt is good in the sense you'll do research and in the end can come up with answers instead of running circles.

 Quote:
We don't really even know our place on the planet, nor do we even come close to understanding our own historical context here on earth. We have no idea, beyond theory, what's in the deepest crevasses of the oceans or in the deepest unexplored jungles (or under the ice in Antarctica). We're discovering new species of animals every day and we're rendering yesterday's truths obsolete by the minute and still there are those who feel confident to speak with authority on things as if we haven't proven in the past that what we're really good at is making shit up.

If a person is ready to put aside the imagined mysticism and fairy stories, then the answers will come rolling down. But yeah, it's the "ready-part" most have difficulties with. Even among skeptics and self-professed Satanists.

Big words, and small brains, evolution where art thou?
(General response, you may take it personally but it is not a necessity).
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#42883 - 09/08/10 11:09 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Dimitri]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

It is also ill-advised and borderline stupid to ask explanations from self-referring sources. Kinda like saying the bible speaks the truth because it has been written in the book itself it speaks the truth..

I was asked for my opinion/experience, I gave it. I don't care if it's convincing to you or not.


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Big words, and small brains, evolution where art thou?
(General response, you may take it personally but it is not a necessity).


Your passive aggressive act is wearing thin. Go back and examine your post to me. What value did you offer by posting it? You attempted to give me advice, which was about something obvious, then you agreed with one sentence, then with one sentence you attempted to present yourself as someone to whom the answers "have come rolling down" to and then you insulted me.

ALL of your posts are like this. You really need to sharpen up because reading your new posts are EXACTLY like reading your old posts. Do you ever offer anything in the way of insight?
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#42884 - 09/08/10 11:19 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Fnord]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
And now I am asking you for examples of your uncanny results. I am seldom impressed by stories which are a bit on the vague side.

 Quote:
Your passive aggressive act is wearing thin. Go back and examine your post to me. What value did you offer by posting it?

That putting aside big words and fairy tales can open someones eyes and see the obvious answers. Quite straight-forward isn't it?

 Quote:
You attempted to give me advice, which was about something obvious, then you agreed with one sentence, then with one sentence you attempted to present yourself as someone to whom the answers "have come rolling down" to and then you insulted me.

Never claimed that the answers came rolling down to me. I have chosen my words wisely enough to indicate that I am not the person with all the answers, but instead a person who gives the slight hint for taking on a different approach.

Besides didn't I write that the "big words and small brains" don't need to be taken personally?



Edited by Dimitri (09/08/10 11:25 AM)
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#42900 - 09/09/10 01:17 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Fnord]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA


Thanks for sharing this, Fnord. Intelligent and thoughtful responses like yours are the reason I choose to post on the600club.
Actually, you are wrong, I did not want you to "allude" to some "entity."
I did expect your response (whatever it would be) to my question to immediately elicit a couple of spasms from that shining example of the elite alien known as DIMWIT-tri (and perhaps soon, her comrades!) \:D \:D \:\)

I have also had experiences and discussions with others concerning GM, pointing in the direction that there may be something else going on. I will be addressing this subject in a different post in the near future.
Outside of the Satanism, it seems to me that the exploration of such a potential "Factor X"(and magic in general), would quickly degrade to invoking the supernatural.
My use of magic does not require any "Factor X" for me to enjoy it's application and reap it's benefits. I use GM primarily for the psychological benefits I reap from it, which adds a little dazzle to everything I do.
I understand it as just some Jungian process in which the conscious and subconsciousness are integrated. It does not need to be anything more than a psychological tool.
That being said, this psychological "play acting" has at times resulted in effects that seem to imply there is something..else. Not some god or Satan-god, but some yet unknown natural phenomena.
While I am interested in the idea and exploration of "Factor X", just because I choose to do so, does not mean I need to have "faith" or foster a "belief" in it's existence. I am not implying that you have such an opinion, I mean in general.
Again, my use of GM does not require the existence of "Factor X" to explain it's effectiveness to me (as a psychological tool).

Equally, I think it is an insult to the individual psyche to ignore repeated personal experiences because they do not "fit in"
with the current boundaries of the known.

Based on his writings, it seems Anton LaVey was aware of such a mystery as well. I am compiling all the LaVey quotes available to me on the matter, from books and interviews (some 600clubbers may not have seen all of these before), and will be posting them soon. ;\)
_________________________
seeker of the mysteries ......

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#42901 - 09/09/10 08:18 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Quote:
I have also had experiences and discussions with others concerning GM, pointing in the direction that there may be something else going on.

Perhaps the "indication maybe something else going on" is in fact a slight hint you and other people are just taking the wrong turn.
Just a slight suggestion... such as the believers of paranormal forces think "there is more to it" when their fantasy overlooked a few things so their theories didn't blend with the harsh reality. But hey, people simply don't like to be confronted with their stupidity and false beliefs. It still is fun to see all the creative writing being done just in lousy attempts to justify their beliefs.

I am still of the position you are exgagerating GM and didn't quite let loose of some unproven fairy tales.

 Quote:
I use GM primarily for the psychological benefits I reap from it, which adds a little dazzle to everything I do.

Same question as Fnord: such as?

 Quote:
That being said, this psychological "play acting" has at times resulted in effects that seem to imply there is something..else. Not some god or Satan-god, but some yet unknown natural phenomena.

Or as mentioned above, you are missing a few points and have the illusion of thinking there is something else while in fact it can simply be your lack of knowledge.

 Quote:
Based on his writings, it seems Anton LaVey was aware of such a mystery as well. I am compiling all the LaVey quotes available to me on the matter, from books and interviews (some 600clubbers may not have seen all of these before), and will be posting them soon.

I very much doubt the older members here have missed a few LaVey quotes. It is also my honest opinion that quoting from ASL is rather pointless. What has been written by ASL should be read and viewed within its entire context and not ripped out so any dumbfuck can weave a bullshit theory around it.


Edited by Dimitri (09/09/10 08:20 AM)
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#42903 - 09/09/10 09:26 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
Well it appears that we're probably closer in how we view GM than I initially thought. Some folks are very afraid of simply saying "I don't know." To me, there is mystery in the world because, as I've touched on illustrating, what we don't know vastly outweighs what we do know.

I don't know if there is some not-yet-understood (or perhaps forgotten) natural force that can be manipulated via ritual or not. Several Satanists I've spoken to believe so, several do not. Some say it's akin to technology and is a reliable way of imposing one's will on the objective universe. If it is, I'm not *that* good at it (yet). I have gotten some interesting results via ritual, but I'm not ready to say it wasn't coincidence or my own mind at play. I entertain the possibly that ritual can have an effect on the objective via the subjective (or I wouldn't bother with it) but I still maintain that it's not probable.

Some seem to find the very idea of exploring magic frightening in some way and so much so that they feel they have to denigrate others who are interested in it. I don't understand this personally as magic has been linked to man from the furthest reaches of antiquity to the present. This message board, in fact, is centered around an individual who dedicated 1/2 of his Satanic Bible to magic & ritual and then added another volume to supplement it. If he thought it was scoff-worthy drivel I doubt he'd have spent so much time and effort in putting it forth.

Anyway, Dimitri, I see you've responded to something I've said, but due to the wonderful attribute of the ignore feature of this board, you've earned the honor of being the first person I've ever used it on (and I've been posting on boards for a long time). I'll not waste my time attempting to engage your mind numbingly myopic posts. Take it to another channel, you're officially tuned out.
_________________________
Dead and gone. Syonara.

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#42912 - 09/09/10 08:58 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Fnord]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I appreciate this effort to understand the detailed mechanics of Greater Magic.

I often wonder, though, whether any tangible progress can possibly be made beyond providing broad definitions of Greater Magic and discussing how magic can alter the magicianís perspective i.e. magicís psychological potential.

In another place there is indeed a respected magician, who does talk about magic being a technology and an electricity. This may be well worth exploring and he may be right, but can it be proved? Does anyone here know whether this line of study is worthwhile?

It all seems to boil down to the same thing: can the mind itself alone influence objects, people and states of affairs in the real world?

Dr. LaVey did regard magic as important because he did spend a lot of time talking about it in his works, but did he actually describe the specific nuts and bolts of how it was supposed to work? If not, then why not?

I have mentioned this in other places, but I am quickly becoming convinced that maybe the way it works, at a nuts and bolts level, is not all that important. Maybe what is most important is whether it in fact does works or not.

I also feel that doing and taking notes about what has worked and what has not worked is of great importance and that learning about magic is generated this way. Every attempt to define magic at a micro-level seems to limit and regulate Ė I am not sure magic was meant to be so determined, limited and regulated.

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#42917 - 09/10/10 02:08 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: ]
Wolflust Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 33
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
It all seems to boil down to the same thing: can the mind itself alone influence objects, people and states of affairs in the real world?


Excuse me if this gets too far off-topic, but I recall a thread on LttD where someone brought up the "trend" of positive psychology, and how it was getting popular again (I have some books on the subjects which was written back in the 20-30`s) with the movie called "the Secret". YES, most Satanist will be very cynical about this, including myself, because it seems covered deluding illusions, and a huge goodguy badge. For instance, it only talks about positive "energy", but what about the more negative (read: destruction rituals)?

Magister Nemo said that this line of thinking though was "knee-deep in magic". I guess the message of that particular book can work for some people, because it certainly can change your perpection of things, and most likely a positive attitude in general may have a good impact on your health, and makes you become more proactive instead of only reactive. But as LaVey pointed out, the only ritual chamber you really need is in your head. All the candles and symbols are there to achieve a desired effect, but I wonder if anyone has any experience with this kinda "magical thinking"?

Rant over.
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#42920 - 09/10/10 02:28 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: ]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
If the mind (I.E. thought) alone could influence people, events etc. there would be a lot of people who would have had their heads explode because I have thought very hard about how cool it would be if the head of person x were to suddenly explode.

So far, that has not worked. As soon as it does work, I will figure out how it worked and get back to you. I wouldn't hold my breath though.
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#43023 - 09/14/10 05:53 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: ]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
Actually a general response, but there are a few lines which run close to a subject I'm actually trying to show for some time now (it made me quite unpopular with some people).
 Quote:
Dr. LaVey did regard magic as important because he did spend a lot of time talking about it in his works, but did he actually describe the specific nuts and bolts of how it was supposed to work? If not, then why not?

Whether LaVey regarded magic important or not is a triviality (my best guess that it was of importance for him by means of his public face, i.e a con-man). From what I know, the specific nuts and bolts of "magic" are so plain obvious they simply do not need to be explained. The definitions of LM and GM are very easy to gasp and those mere definitions already are a dead give away on how it works.
It is only by abuse of the terms and sheer ignorance by the "supposed" magician their workings SEEM mysterious and unexplained. It is my complaint towards Fnord and Duende (and perhaps others who think to see wisdom in their mindless pseudo-intellectual banter). These persons simply exagerate their emotions. They claim to perform GM and get "uncanny" results, yet when asked of an example of such "uncanny results" they simply shut their ears start yelling and want to live on in their fantasies knowing well enough I have the ability to burst their fucking bubble and show them clear and unbound reality. Which brings me to general ranting.

What is the use of calling yourself a Satanist if you can't let go off mystical and plain bullshit constructs without any consideration. I see many talk about GM and the results they had from the use of it. Most of the time they say it just as that, "results". Bursting the bubble, what is being ment by "result"? Managed to magically let a wart appear on someones face after a ritual? Managed to let someone have a car accident after some dark mass? Winning the lottery after sprinkling your ticket with a mixture of goatsblood and virginpiss? You'll have to be more specific, my dears, to get a skeptic like me convinced. I simply do not fall for assumed bullshit.

And even if you have the ability to describe your assumed result then there is always a chance I'd come up with the same arguments George Carlin used on the effectiveness of prayer (50/50 percent of both failure and win situation). No mystical workings, just sheer luck.

Let me share some real occult knowledge on the inner mechanism of GM: simply a change of mind, by means of letting fantasy and cravings collide towards the world outside your brain. It is that simple craving or thing you wish for you want to happen but simply know the chances are almost zero. There is no mystical mechanism or mysticism at all, it is just plain old self-delusion. Nothing more, nothing less. Not getting this is only an indication you prefer to live in a fantasy world. Whatever floats your boat, but there will always be people like me around who can make you feel bad and challenge you. If a person wants to avoid it, simply don't start mentioning or explain your bullshit theories. Because that's nothing more then what the whole response of Duende and Fnord was about, a commonly shared lack of knowledge and general bullshit theory (and to some extent circular reasoning) to cover up that gap.


Edited by Dimitri (09/14/10 05:56 PM)
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#43031 - 09/15/10 09:36 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: ]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
I appreciate this effort to understand the detailed mechanics of Greater Magic.


I'm not sure I am interested in a nuts and bolts explanation. Since magic has been an integral part of culture since before recorded history, it is something that is interesting to me, particularly since it's gone from prominence to something to scoff at. It's interesting that the abrahamic3 tried their best to supress magic via mass murder and mayhem and then have had the gall to refer to magic as evil.

I like LaVey's take on it: "Magic is never totally scientifically explainable, but science has always been, at one time or another, considered magic."

 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
I often wonder, though, whether any tangible progress can possibly be made beyond providing broad definitions of Greater Magic and discussing how magic can alter the magicianís perspective i.e. magicís psychological potential.


I'll quote LaVey again with regard to defining magic:
"It will be said by some that these instructions and procedures are nothing more than applied psychology, or scientific fact, called by 'magical' terminology - until they arrive at a passage in the text that is "based on no known scientific finding". It is for this reason that no attempt has been made to limit the explanations set forth to a set nomenclature."

In other words, it's up to the individual to determine what's important and how to go about getting there. Magic is broadly defined for a reason as every one who practices it has a different will and has different goals to accomplish.

 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1

Maybe what is most important is whether it in fact does works or not.

Precisely the initial motivation, for me, to begin experimenting with magic. I've always studied magic in one way or another, experimenting with it draws on a whole different part of the psyche.

You're definitely correct in using care in applying limiting terms to magic. It's an art, not a science (though science may bear out the results).
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#43033 - 09/15/10 11:35 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Dimitri]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

I am still of the position you are exgagerating GM and didn't quite let loose of some unproven fairy tales.



Which specific "unproven fairy tales" ?
To entertain creative ideas about the potentially unknown capacity of the human mind does not imply the embracing of "fairy tales", but merely an acceptance of the fact that the maximum potential of consciousness is unknown.
Sometimes the unknown can make you feel uncomfortable, and it is easier (emotionally and intellectually) to avoid confronting the matter.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

 Quote:
I use GM primarily for the psychological benefits I reap from it, which adds a little dazzle to everything I do.

Same question as Fnord: such as?


GM has provided me with benefits appropriate to my specific needs. The particulars may not be meaningful to you, or may be misinterpreted because they are not relevant to your unique experience.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

 Quote:
Based on his writings, it seems Anton LaVey was aware of such a mystery as well. I am compiling all the LaVey quotes available to me on the matter, from books and interviews (some 600clubbers may not have seen all of these before), and will be posting them soon.

I very much doubt the older members here have missed a few LaVey quotes.


I'm not compiling these quotes for the specific benefit of the "older members."


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri


It is also my honest opinion that quoting from ASL is rather pointless. What has been written by ASL should be read and viewed within its entire context and not ripped out so any dumbfuck can weave a bullshit theory around it.




I trust many of the 600club readership will be able to decide for themselves if specific quotes from Anton LaVey are of value outside their "entire context."
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