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#43034 - 09/15/10 11:56 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Fnord]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
I don't understand this personally as magic has been linked to man from the furthest reaches of antiquity to the present. This message board, in fact, is centered around an individual who dedicated 1/2 of his Satanic Bible to magic & ritual and then added another volume to supplement it. If he thought it was scoff-worthy drivel I doubt he'd have spent so much time and effort in putting it forth.


It may be convenient to the egos of some to ignore those facts. To practice GM it is necessary to do things, to focus the mind, etc. GM requires work.
I always chuckle when encountering a "Satanist" who rejects the "magic" portion of Satanism without giving it a try.
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#43036 - 09/16/10 12:49 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: ]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
I appreciate this effort to understand the detailed mechanics of Greater Magic.

I often wonder, though, whether any tangible progress can possibly be made beyond providing broad definitions of Greater Magic and discussing how magic can alter the magicianís perspective i.e. magicís psychological potential.

In another place there is indeed a respected magician, who does talk about magic being a technology and an electricity. This may be well worth exploring and he may be right, but can it be proved? Does anyone here know whether this line of study is worthwhile?

It all seems to boil down to the same thing: can the mind itself alone influence objects, people and states of affairs in the real world?


I am interested in how the mind can affect itself to create more opportunities for itself, that's what it boils down to for me.

GM seems to provides you with a personal laboratory to explore and interact with your own consciousness without the demands and imposed definition of the external world.


 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1

I have mentioned this in other places, but I am quickly becoming convinced that maybe the way it works, at a nuts and bolts level, is not all that important. Maybe what is most important is whether it in fact does works or not.

I also feel that doing and taking notes about what has worked and what has not worked is of great importance and that learning about magic is generated this way. Every attempt to define magic at a micro-level seems to limit and regulate Ė I am not sure magic was meant to be so determined, limited and regulated.


I agree with keeping some form of notes or magical diary to assist in your GM explorations. Through reading your notes on previous GM "experiments", you may find useful patterns which may previously have not been consciously available to you.
I am of the opinion that GM = how the mind works.
Christianity and other religions of death provide "determined, limited and regulated" magic to more than a few.
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#43037 - 09/16/10 01:13 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Wolflust]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Wolflust
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
It all seems to boil down to the same thing: can the mind itself alone influence objects, people and states of affairs in the real world?


Excuse me if this gets too far off-topic, but I recall a thread on LttD where someone brought up the "trend" of positive psychology, and how it was getting popular again (I have some books on the subjects which was written back in the 20-30`s) with the movie called "the Secret". YES, most Satanist will be very cynical about this, including myself, because it seems covered deluding illusions, and a huge goodguy badge. For instance, it only talks about positive "energy", but what about the more negative (read: destruction rituals)?

Magister Nemo said that this line of thinking though was "knee-deep in magic". I guess the message of that particular book can work for some people, because it certainly can change your perpection of things, and most likely a positive attitude in general may have a good impact on your health, and makes you become more proactive instead of only reactive. But as LaVey pointed out, the only ritual chamber you really need is in your head. All the candles and symbols are there to achieve a desired effect, but I wonder if anyone has any experience with this kinda "magical thinking"?

Rant over.


I saw "the Secret" years ago. It basically states that having a defined vision of your desires will help you in manifesting them.
If I recall correctly, it did not place any emphasis on taking any logical course of action in the real world to manifest those visions, but instead relied on a complete disregard of the Balance Factor.
It is easy to locate those who have not found success with "the Secret". I am never surprised whenever I browse through the shelves at the local Barnes and Noble, and find yet another book on how to "make" "the Secret" work if it doesn't work for you
I agree that the real ritual chamber is in your skull, but I think it is helpful to use a physical ritual chamber to get used to what GM "feels" like, at least initially.
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#43039 - 09/16/10 05:15 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Quote:
GM has provided me with benefits appropriate to my specific needs. The particulars may not be meaningful to you, or may be misinterpreted because they are not relevant to your unique experience.

Smells to me like a cover up. Misinterpretation of what? There can hardly be something interpretated faulty if there isn't anything to start with. You see, that's what I blame you. You start talking and ranting about results of GM and even make up whole theories, yet when asked for some examples to make things clear, it is total shut down and covering behind "it is not relevant towards..". It IS relevant! I think I have adressed it in my previous response here.
 Originally Posted By: dimitri
Most of the time they say it just as that, "results". Bursting the bubble, what is being ment by "result"? Managed to magically let a wart appear on someones face after a ritual? Managed to let someone have a car accident after some dark mass? Winning the lottery after sprinkling your ticket with a mixture of goatsblood and virginpiss? You'll have to be more specific, my dears, to get a skeptic like me convinced. I simply do not fall for assumed bullshit.

I have said it many times before, if there is nothing to proove then don't start talking about.
 Quote:
I trust many of the 600club readership will be able to decide for themselves if specific quotes from Anton LaVey are of value outside their "entire context."

Good ol' cut and paste work.
I quite dislike people who quote others to sound interesting. ASL wrote down his thoughts in one coherent (or more) volumes tackling diverse subjects. Every single word and sentence has its meaning within the book and it has been written within the context of that book to understand his thoughts. Starting to quote entire paragraphs, to me, is discrediting the author(s) since you are damaging its persona by giving the chance of letting people make false assumptions. It can be considered down right insulting.

 Quote:
To entertain creative ideas about the potentially unknown capacity of the human mind does not imply the embracing of "fairy tales", but merely an acceptance of the fact that the maximum potential of consciousness is unknown.

Up here you are basically admitting you want to believe in the assumption of "higher powers" deep down inside you. "Maximum potential of consciousness is unknown".. should I be blown away?


Edited by Dimitri (09/16/10 05:27 AM)
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#43044 - 09/16/10 12:05 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Dimitri]
Duende Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 75
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
GM has provided me with benefits appropriate to my specific needs. The particulars may not be meaningful to you, or may be misinterpreted because they are not relevant to your unique experience.

Smells to me like a cover up. Misinterpretation of what? There can hardly be something interpretated faulty if there isn't anything to start with. You see, that's what I blame you. You start talking and ranting about results of GM and even make up whole theories, yet when asked for some examples to make things clear, it is total shut down and covering behind "it is not relevant towards..". It IS relevant! I think I have adressed it in my previous response here.


If I were making an extraordinary claim then yes, but I am not and never did.
I am not claiming any supernatural results from Greater Magic as you continue to imply.
You do not find Greater Magic of interest or use but that is fine. Attempting to explain th experience of Greater Magic to someone who has not tried it is like explaining the experience of sex to a virgin. You have to go to out and actually try it yourself \:\)

 Originally Posted By: dimitri
Most of the time they say it just as that, "results". Bursting the bubble, what is being ment by "result"? Managed to magically let a wart appear on someones face after a ritual? Managed to let someone have a car accident after some dark mass? Winning the lottery after sprinkling your ticket with a mixture of goatsblood and virginpiss? You'll have to be more specific, my dears, to get a skeptic like me convinced. I simply do not fall for assumed bullshit.



As far as I am aware, no one on this thread is claiming any of the "results" you are describing.
To have an interest in Greater Magic does not presume any belief in a "Harry Potter" type of reality.
 Originally Posted By: dimitri


I quite dislike people who quote others to sound interesting. ASL wrote down his thoughts in one coherent (or more) volumes tackling diverse subjects. Every single word and sentence has its meaning within the book and it has been written within the context of that book to understand his thoughts. Starting to quote entire paragraphs, to me, is discrediting the author(s) since you are damaging its persona by giving the chance of letting people make false assumptions. It can be considered down right insulting.


You are entitled to your opinions. I'm not seeking anyones approval. I don't care if you or anyone else is "insulted."
 Originally Posted By: dimitri


 Quote:
To entertain creative ideas about the potentially unknown capacity of the human mind does not imply the embracing of "fairy tales", but merely an acceptance of the fact that the maximum potential of consciousness is unknown.

Up here you are basically admitting you want to believe in the assumption of "higher powers" deep down inside you. "Maximum potential of consciousness is unknown".. should I be blown away?


I never implied any "higher powers", that is your term. You are misinterpreting and distorting the meaning of what I wrote to have it "fit in" with your incorrect assumption that those who practice Greater Magic hold a "Harry Potter" like view of reality.

The maximum potential of the mind is unknown. I am not surprised if you are "blown away" in confronting that.
Many Satanists are attracted to the mysterious and unknown within and beyond themselves. Not a supernatural unknown( as you continue erroneously to imply), but a desire to understand the nature of the human animal and the universe in all it's facets.
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#43045 - 09/16/10 12:20 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
And I do believe that your ending sentence truly captures the whole and essence of Greater Magic, "but a desire to understand the nature of the human animal and the universe in all it's facets." Simple and to the point. No supernatural assumptions, only desire and focused intent.
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#43047 - 09/16/10 03:26 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Quote:
If I were making an extraordinary claim then yes, but I am not and never did.

I didn't ask for an extraordinary claim; just an example. If you said you used GM and got "uncanny" results then I simply ask an example of these uncanny results. I am well aware Fnord came up with the "uncanny results"-part btw. But the same question is adressed to you, even though it is without the "uncanny results" part. What has led you to come to the conclusion of "discovering of full potential of the mind"? When I hear and read such things it feels like a little child telling me it is the smartest being in the world before bumping against a closed door.

 Quote:
You do not find Greater Magic of interest or use but that is fine. Attempting to explain th experience of Greater Magic to someone who has not tried it is like explaining the experience of sex to a virgin. You have to go to out and actually try it yourself

Assumption on your side, I merely think you are exagerating and are getting caught up into your fantasies.

 Quote:
I never implied any "higher powers", that is your term. You are misinterpreting and distorting the meaning of what I wrote to have it "fit in" with your incorrect assumption that those who practice Greater Magic hold a "Harry Potter" like view of reality.

Who said I was thinking about higher powers in a fantasy-like way? I was more thinking along the lines of assumed "higher powers" (as you came to describe as: "maximum unknown potential of the mind") to just make you feel special, which you clearly aren't. Just another way to give the false idea of being special and more intelligent then the common person you cross. Your whole theory and rant has a few problems: it is based on assumptions and you haven't got a leg (yet?) to stand on for the claim that the potential of the human mind is unknown.

I have encountered other people who claimed the same thing, and I noticed they believed that assumption because of a lack of proper schooling and also wanted to feel more special.
If you want to have your full potential, start opening some real hard-science books and get involved in some real investigation instead of the common exploration most do (i.e reading wiki pages and the first few bloggers who claim to know a bit about it).
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#84358 - 01/21/14 02:58 PM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Dimitri]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6683
Loc: Virginia
[General Reply]

The assumptive quality of the responses is astounding. Reading this was as if two different languages were being spoken. Still, a couple seem to be climbing that tower of Babel.

Another element of Greek Daemonolatry, is that once a Daemon has descended into the Underworld it rises a Daimon. The Greeks were essentially speaking of invocation/evocation of Gnosis. A way to manifest the Daemonic self. Daemones are intercessors for hidden knowledge buried deep in the psyche. Muses were also an important element of how we gain knowledge that appears to just fall out of the sky. A self-knowledge that is more intuitive vs. mimicry. Thought to be a gift from the gods. Greco-Romans were also Atheists. Many regarded the gods as allegories and colorful metaphors to carry knowledge from one person to the next.

It's among the reasons that Occultists that experiment and dabble end up settling into some form of Transcendentalism. The Opie was discussing one thing and the readers were interpreting another.

I fail to see how the quotes were being taken completely out of context.

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#84372 - 01/22/14 04:03 AM Re: The Daemonic Self [Re: Duende]
Ferox Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/19/13
Posts: 69
Loc: Adios!
The Pandaemonic Self is a Magic Reality of course, the Black Principle of Freedom. Opposite to god, above the formula of science, I embrace this Satanic Wisdom and simply hold my own.

That's right, BLACK MAGIC.

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