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#5274 - 03/11/08 06:34 AM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: TheMask]
ZephyrGirl Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
Commit the crime and you loose the right to be a human being, you are at the mercy of the court until they see fit to releace you. Prison is too damn easy for people now.


I'm sorry TC, but how does one loose the right to be a human being? It's not a right it is a fact.

Whilst I understand what you are saying, I totally dissagree with people loosing the right to practice their religions, or philosophies in gaol.

The way you describe gaol in England it sounds like a holiday. Somehow I doubt the reality is really that pleasant. People are taken from their families, friends and way of life. I would personally just find being locked up a HUGE punishment.

Most people in gaol in America and Australia are suffering from mental illness and ALOT of them are in there for drug offences that they have incurred by trying to self medicate. I totally disagree with the Australian drug laws, so I don't think people in gaol for drug possesion should have the right to be human taken away from them.

You say you would do the time if you murdered someone, but what about if you were defending your home and you killed the perpetrator by accident? Would you want loose your right to be a human then?

I say give them whatever they need if it helps them reflect on their previous life and maybe work towards rehabilitating them.

Practising your religion is a long way off watching such luxuries as pay tv as you say they now have.

Empathy and compassion are not bad qualities to possess.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#5285 - 03/11/08 11:05 AM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Self defense is always an exception to the rule when it come to murder. But that aside. If jail (or gaol as you're spelling it, which I always thought was the Irish spelling, but it's not an issue), was such an awful place you wouldn't need to defend your home because people would not be attacking you. The prospect of being in jail is too horrible.

I may seem cruel, but my opinion is simple when it comes to fair and just laws, you break the law expect to be treated cruely and without mercy. At the moment we don't have that, instead it's expect free room and board, education, gym membership, TV, internet access and medical treatment. This isn't right. My taxes are going to pay for this cushy lifestyle, for people who have hurt my friend and family. That can't be right. They should get bare minimum. 2 meals a day, a blacket and a bucket. This is all they deserve.

People who commit petty or accidental crime however should not be treated harshly. The homeless guy who steals a loaf of bread to stay alive should be given a chance to EARN his meals not a punishment for staying alive. A guy defending his girlfriend who accidentally kills a guy should be commended for his valor. Sure he was a little too forceful, and if he used a unreasonable level of force he should pay. Caving someones head in after they're already incapacitated isn't just, punching someone and them falling and cracking there head open is fine.

Justice is unfortunately subjective, and reguardless of how much we try we will never achieve true natural justice. Life by it's very nature is cruel, unkind and unfair. However I beleive that we can gain a close aproximation of true justice and i don't think we have this at present.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#5286 - 03/11/08 11:08 AM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: ZephyrGirl]
TheMask Offline
member


Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 130
The problem is that some criminals can actually live by being criminals. They can always lay back on the prisons to give them shelter, food and such things in these lazy prisons. Doesnt seem like simple isolation is a crime fit in that case.

I dont think normal isolation is a crime fit for people that deserve actual punishment. In that case you could might as well give everybody house arrest without any elictricity for your TV.

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#5317 - 03/11/08 08:50 PM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: TheMask]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
 Originally Posted By: TheMask
 Originally Posted By: DistroyA
Fuck, they even stopped caning in schools, and look how bad the youth of today has become.


That statement was nothing but retarded to me. Youre suggesting that we should beat children in order to get them to obey? I was pretty sure the laws of any satanism went against that.

No, I don't suggest that we beat our children up, as that's fucking disgusting. I was smacked as a child for doing anything wrong, and that was very rarely, as I was good kid. My bro was the one who caused most trouble, and he got more punishments, and he's turned out fine. Same as me.

When I have children, I will smack them if they do anything wrong. And quite frankly, I don't see a problem with that.

As for the cane, it was just a slightly extreme way of smacking a child. I'd have to say, I'd keep in line if I got caned for doing anything bad.

You obviously think that talking to children these days will solve problems. Most of them will laugh at you for it. Especially over here in Britain. Things might be peachy where you live, but it isn't over here mate.

And yes, you are very correct; Satanism does not agree with harming of children, but a slap on the bum or back of the legs does not harm a child. it just teaches discipline in some respects. Punching a child is a different thing altogether. Anyone who does that should die slowly and very painfully.

And please, don't accuse me of such things again. I won't tolerate it at all.

Have a nice evening...

DistroyA


Edited by DistroyA (03/11/08 08:52 PM)
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#5323 - 03/11/08 09:15 PM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: TheMask]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Originally Posted By: TheMask
My parents used to smack me around and i hated them for it.
Even up until months ago i hated them for it. I still dont like what they did and i think it was wrong.


Perhaps your parents hit you for the wrong reasons, ie, just to hit you, taking out their aggression on you, or because you were just doing things a normal child would do and it bothered them. If that were the case, then absolutely yes, it was wrong of them do to so.

 Quote:
Talking to children instead of beating them is less caveman-ish to me and i will try not to sink to that level. I think that educating them in a matter instead of slapping them is the way to go since parents smacking their kids around are simply lazy.


The problem with children today is not because they are being smacked by their parents, but because of this very mentality you are espousing. As TC mentioned in a previous post, children are primal animals, and do not learn to properly communicate with their parents (reaching for the bottle and making a face is not on the same level as reasoning skills). They only have a rudimentary understanding of the world around them, and repeatedly trying to reason with a three year old who is screaming their head off in a supermarket is not going to do the trick. At the same time, it is not conducive to shaping a child's adult behavior to just smack them with no reason. The best way to discipline is to have warning stages.

1. Before an outing, be sure the child knows what behavior is and is not acceptable, and let them know what the consequences will be if they misbehave.

2. When the child misbehaves, give them warning #1. Take him/her away from other people, get down on their level and look them in the eyes when you give them the warning. If you just tell them, "Bobby, knock it off!" and carry on with what you're doing, they'll know you're not paying any attention and will try to do it again. They'll also have less respect for any warnings you may give them in the future.

3. If they do it again, take them out of the room and give them a quick spanking. No need for beating, arm wrenching or anything like that. It is the humiliation that hurts worse than a spanking. Also, do not reinforce any negative ideas after the punishment that makes them feel even worse, like, "See what you made me do?" or "You make mommy so mad!" If you warned that you were going to leave a place (ie McDonalds) if he/she cuts up, then leave, screaming child and all. The important thing is to make good on your promises. No more, no less. If they improved their behavior, either after the warning or on the way home, make note of it and praise them for it. It'll bring their self esteem back up and life can return to normal by the time you get home.

The Egyptians said it best in an ancient proverb, "A boy's ear is on his back." Harsh by our standards, but it worked for them.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#5326 - 03/11/08 09:55 PM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: Nemesis]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
I knew that I would learn a little more after joining these forums. Thank you for such advice and wisdom concerning children. I'll remember that. \:\)
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#5340 - 03/11/08 10:53 PM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: DistroyA]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
If jail (or gaol as you're spelling it, which I always thought was the Irish spelling, but it's not an issue), was such an awful place you wouldn't need to defend your home because people would not be attacking you. The prospect of being in jail is too horrible.


Firstly it's spelt like that in Australia as well. Maybe we got it from the irish I don't know, but that's how I was taught to spell it at school. \:\)

Secondly and to the actual point of the thread, if you were right in what you are saying about the prospect of a truly horrible gaol being a bigger deterent I would find that beleivable if it wasn't for a few things.

1) Asian gaols are notoriously horrible, yet they still have plenty of people commiting crimes that put them in there.
2) If say the death penalty was a deterent, then the states in America that had it wouldn't have higher crime rates than the states that don't have it.
3) Drug addiction is one of the biggest contributors to crime and the amount of people in gaol. Find solutions to the drug problem and alot of petty crime (like break ins) would stop.

The way you present your case on why someone shouldn't be allowed to have their religion in gaol sounds like the majority of the people in these institutions are murderers and rapists. This is just not the case.

ZephyrGril
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#5346 - 03/11/08 11:27 PM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: Nemesis]
TheMask Offline
member


Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 130
Distroya - Perhaps you are right but your statement was still retarded to me since it suggested serious beatings so it wasnt very hard not to accuse you of that.
However, you do have a point. Some children even do deserve more then little spankings sometimes when i come to think of it. I guess my bad experiences on the subject made me a bit biased on the subject. My parents didnt really use the slapping efficently.

Either way, the great part of this forum is that you can learn from your errors. \:\)


 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
 Originally Posted By: TheMask
My parents used to smack me around and i hated them for it.
Even up until months ago i hated them for it. I still dont like what they did and i think it was wrong.


Perhaps your parents hit you for the wrong reasons, ie, just to hit you, taking out their aggression on you, or because you were just doing things a normal child would do and it bothered them. If that were the case, then absolutely yes, it was wrong of them do to so.

 Quote:
Talking to children instead of beating them is less caveman-ish to me and i will try not to sink to that level. I think that educating them in a matter instead of slapping them is the way to go since parents smacking their kids around are simply lazy.


The problem with children today is not because they are being smacked by their parents, but because of this very mentality you are espousing. As TC mentioned in a previous post, children are primal animals, and do not learn to properly communicate with their parents (reaching for the bottle and making a face is not on the same level as reasoning skills). They only have a rudimentary understanding of the world around them, and repeatedly trying to reason with a three year old who is screaming their head off in a supermarket is not going to do the trick. At the same time, it is not conducive to shaping a child's adult behavior to just smack them with no reason. The best way to discipline is to have warning stages.

1. Before an outing, be sure the child knows what behavior is and is not acceptable, and let them know what the consequences will be if they misbehave.

2. When the child misbehaves, give them warning #1. Take him/her away from other people, get down on their level and look them in the eyes when you give them the warning. If you just tell them, "Bobby, knock it off!" and carry on with what you're doing, they'll know you're not paying any attention and will try to do it again. They'll also have less respect for any warnings you may give them in the future.

3. If they do it again, take them out of the room and give them a quick spanking. No need for beating, arm wrenching or anything like that. It is the humiliation that hurts worse than a spanking. Also, do not reinforce any negative ideas after the punishment that makes them feel even worse, like, "See what you made me do?" or "You make mommy so mad!" If you warned that you were going to leave a place (ie McDonalds) if he/she cuts up, then leave, screaming child and all. The important thing is to make good on your promises. No more, no less. If they improved their behavior, either after the warning or on the way home, make note of it and praise them for it. It'll bring their self esteem back up and life can return to normal by the time you get home.

The Egyptians said it best in an ancient proverb, "A boy's ear is on his back." Harsh by our standards, but it worked for them.


Yes, i think they did since i wouldnt say that some of the slappings i got were very much deserved at all. I guess my parents were more of the "Im too lazy to talk so i will use the hand"-types.

But i see your point. That seems like a good way of raising a child. If i ever decide to have children i will definetly take your advice into consideration.


Edited by TheMask (03/11/08 11:29 PM)

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#5377 - 03/12/08 11:34 AM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: TheMask]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
Yeah, I suppose I did word it in an idiotic manner. I think i was a bit too blunt (of which I can be sometimes, so apologies for that and for anything else in advance) about the whole subject.

Anyways, my opinion on punishment as a whole for both criminals AND for when your children do something wrong is a relevant form of humiliation. A spanking for kids will do fine (unless they act like complete assholes, then they deserve a little bit worse a punishment...), and as for criminals, they need a much worse kind of humiliation. And as we all know, no-one likes to be humiliated.

There's always the talk of bringing back the death penalty over here in Britain, and I'm kinda sitting on the fence between agreeing and disagreeing. I disagree on one part, as humiliating and degrading the individual criminal will make them think twice about committing said crime again (I'm kinda generalising here, so please don't think that I think petty crime, such as nicking a loaf of bread to feed one's self or one's family, should be punished in the same way).

However, I kinda agree with the death penalty being bought back for the most extreme cases and only used as a last resort. This is to keep extremely dangerous individuals from harming the public, even after initial punishment.

If you're all wondering why I bought the death penalty up, I was having a discussion with a friend over the death penalty, both of us providing different perspectives over the topic. I thought I'd share my thoughts with you all on that.

What do you all think about that issue?
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#5409 - 03/12/08 07:08 PM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: DistroyA]
TheMask Offline
member


Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 130
Its no problem really, i do it as well sometimes. No apologies needed.
The only counter-argument for the death penalty that i am aware of which makes sense to me is that theres a risk people who are falsely accused and sentenced for a crime they didnt commit dying for nothing.

Otherwise i am strongly for it. But with a little touch of my own to the punishment. I feel that the ones who deserve this punishment should be tortured a few times before being put to death since death is kind of an easy way out for commiting a horrible crime.

The ones i feel deserve this punishment is mostly rapists - But also murderers who have murdered someone that didnt do much harm to anybody or simply murder without much reason. Plain ignorance too. An example of plain ignorance would be "I murdered him for looking at me a certain way".

Revenge is a valid reason to murder somebody but it also depends on the situation. Someone stealing an orange from you isnt really worth going and killing. Perhaps beating up i dont know about killing.


What bugs me is that we are actually paying tax money to keep these kinds of prisoners alive that shouldnt be alive in the first place for the crimes that they have commit.
It doesnt make sense to me paying to keep people alive that have ruined someone elses life. And once scum like rapists get out of jail they commit the same crime again and just go to a prison again. In order to prevent more lives being ruined capital punishment could solve that problem.

Think of the world as a PC and the rapist/murderer being a computer virus. Once you get rid of the virus - The PC is healthy, up and running again. You dont deal with that problem anymore.


One could also argue against capital punishment in the sense that death is a quick way out and cant be compared to 15 years of isolation. But what about the prisons that are nice and cozy and not much of a punishment at all?
We cant send everybody to Abu Ghraib. With that said i just bring my argument about not having to pay for those type of criminals up again.


Edited by TheMask (03/12/08 07:09 PM)

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#5413 - 03/12/08 07:28 PM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: TheMask]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
You prove a valid point. Mind you, immense torture and taking away the human rights of an individual such as a rapist, paedophile or murderer seems a lot more satisfying.

Yeah, I agree that it could be detrimental in the case that someone was falsely convicted of a crime such as murder, but that's where full investigation around the case and possible interrogation of the accusers. Then there's the point of killing someone for a good reason and/or in self defence.

It's all very debatable. We first need a competent justice system before we can start thinking about appropriate punishments....
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#5416 - 03/12/08 07:45 PM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: DistroyA]
TheMask Offline
member


Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 130
Thank you. I do include pedophilia in the rapist-section since it is the same in a sense, only against a young child.
But even the matter of pedophilia is debatable in some cases. The laws in this country say that you cant have sex with anybody below the age of 15. I also think that the law says if the person is only 4 years younger, you have to pay a fine.

I myself think that 13 would be an appropriate age. My philosophy is that everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it only hurts themselves - So if both parts, perhaps a 14-year old with an taste in older men and a 30-year old decide to have sex - So be it. If its what they want.

This is theoretically speaking since i dont know how many 13-year olds would actually want to do that. But IF.

"It's all very debatable. We first need a competent justice system before we can start thinking about appropriate punishments...."

Exactly! The system would have to be reformed in order for capital punishment to work properly since the one we have now - At least in my country, obviously isnt working.
However i dont see this coming in a near future.


Edited by TheMask (03/12/08 07:47 PM)

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#5451 - 03/12/08 11:04 PM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: TheMask]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
Yes, I agree, people should be allowed to fulfil their own desires, provided that no other parties get hurt in the process.

No, the system isn't going to be reformed for a VERY long time. Really and truthfully, certain things in society, such as the law and order system and other factors in society, need to be eradicated before we can make improvements. It's a nihilistic viewpoint, but some of the things in today's world cannot be improved and are damaged beyond repair. Replacement is the only option really.

Sometimes, I scare myself with my train of thought.
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#5461 - 03/13/08 12:09 AM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: TheMask]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: TheMask
Thank you. I do include pedophilia in the rapist-section since it is the same in a sense, only against a young child.
But even the matter of pedophilia is debatable in some cases. The laws in this country say that you cant have sex with anybody below the age of 15. I also think that the law says if the person is only 4 years younger, you have to pay a fine.

I myself think that 13 would be an appropriate age. My philosophy is that everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it only hurts themselves - So if both parts, perhaps a 14-year old with an taste in older men and a 30-year old decide to have sex - So be it. If its what they want.

This is theoretically speaking since i dont know how many 13-year olds would actually want to do that. But IF.

"It's all very debatable. We first need a competent justice system before we can start thinking about appropriate punishments...."

Exactly! The system would have to be reformed in order for capital punishment to work properly since the one we have now - At least in my country, obviously isnt working.
However i dont see this coming in a near future.
I'm not arguing with you Mask; just wondering about pedophilia.

At what age does a person begin having sexual feelings? I do notice little children touching themselves, but i don't consider this sexual like we would think of it. Than i myself began thinking sexual thoughts since I was maybe 9 0r 10; it was about the same time I starting doing things with myself you know...

what if i was curious about sex, and a 30 or 40 years old guy i knew and liked as a friend casually talked me into having sex.

I would still consider that not cool because one of use is still getting taken advantage of. I'm just thinking out loud. Maybe it should be up to each individual. As a future mother, i would kill any older bastard who had sex with my teenage daughter, regardless.
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Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


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#5463 - 03/13/08 12:17 AM Re: Jail Allows Inmates to pracitce Satanism [Re: LUCIFERIFIC]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
Quite frankly Luciferific, I don't blame you for feeling that way. It's only natural that a mother be protective of her young, as it is natural for a father to act the same.

I will admit, when I was in my first relationship, when we both lost our virginity, she was one year below the age of consent. Thing is, I'm only a year older than her, so it's not that bad really (at least I don't think so), and that added to the fact that she was consenting. It was a very natural thing for us both.

As for people in their late 20-30s taking advantage of young teenagers, they should be punished in the appropriate manner; torture and degradation. So you got my support for that one.
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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