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#43120 - 09/19/10 09:17 PM Bible Time! - Riddle Me This
Lamar Offline
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Registered: 02/03/10
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Loc: Alabama
Alright so I was just reading a thread about a new Paradise Lost movie and Michael Aquino's post reminded me of a conversation I had with my drunken aunt. When she drinks for some reason she gets all biblical and doesn't mind telling me that God cares for me, blah blah. Sometime in the dialogue she said that angels could not think in terms of opposition from God. Lucifer was a great and beautiful *angel*. He said in his heart "I will be like the Most High, I will exalt my throne above God." So it was pride that cast Lucifer from heaven.

Lucifer was an *angel*. If angels cannot think in opposition of God, how then was he able to rebel against God?

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#43121 - 09/19/10 09:46 PM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: Lamar]
Fnord Offline
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Because if there were an ever present and omniscient god who created everything he would have had to have created Lucifer to think in opposition to him/her/it self (because god cannot make mistakes).

Since this is the only scenario that would make sense then reason should also illustrate the idea that god created Lucifer for the explicit purpose of being 'evil' (since he couldn't have been mistaken in his purpose).

In this way the alpha and the omega are also good and evil.

The problem with all of that though is that it's all bullshit.
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#43123 - 09/19/10 11:52 PM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: Fnord]
Duende Offline
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Registered: 03/25/10
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Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
Because if there were an ever present and omniscient god who created everything he would have had to have created Lucifer to think in opposition to him/her/it self (because god cannot make mistakes).


If God represents the "Balance Factor" in nature, and the angels are the "functions" of God (like the neteru from that other thread), then Satan's function is being that which is in opposition to the harmony of God. This is exactly why Lucifer can think in opposition to God, because that is what he represents, that is his function. It's what he does.

It brings up that old pesky Satanic paradox that others have encountered in the past, due to the limitations of Judeo-Christian mythology. It can be ignored or we can use an alternative mythology (beyond the Judeo-Christian) to avoid it altogether.

 Originally Posted By: Fnord
The problem with all of that though is that it's all bullshit.


That does not make it any less entertaining! ;\)
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#43124 - 09/20/10 12:33 AM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: Duende]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
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 Originally Posted By: Duende
It brings up that old pesky Satanic paradox that others have encountered in the past, due to the limitations of Judeo-Christian mythology. It can be ignored or we can use an alternative mythology (beyond the Judeo-Christian) to avoid it altogether.

For one alternative mythology which confronts this tension, see the first two scrolls of the Morlindalë.

J.R.R. Tolkien's "Ainulindalë" & "Valaquenta" in The Silmarillion mirror the Paradise Lost creation/war in Heaven from the perspective of the Elves, as told to them by the Ainur of Valinor. The first scroll of the Morlindalë contains Melkor's account of the same events, while the second scroll adds the perspective of the Maia Sauron.

As with the Diabolicon, I do not expect to see a motion picture of the Morlindalë anytime soon ...
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#43164 - 09/23/10 10:57 PM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: Lamar]
William Wright Offline
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All right, it was pride that got Lucifer tossed out of heaven. Makes sense – after all, pride is one of the seven deadly sins. But if pride is so terrible, why does God want us to worship him? Wouldn’t that make him a hypocrite?
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#43278 - 09/28/10 04:46 PM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: William Wright]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
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Well, technically, it wasn't so much pride that got Lucifer tossed on his ass as it was envy. Even still the Bible is full of hypocrisy and more holes than a brick of Swiss cheese that has been unloaded on with a 12 gauge firing 000.
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#43282 - 09/28/10 06:28 PM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: William Wright]
Lamar Offline
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Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
 Originally Posted By: William Wright
All right, it was pride that got Lucifer tossed out of heaven. Makes sense – after all, pride is one of the seven deadly sins. But if pride is so terrible, why does God want us to worship him? Wouldn’t that make him a hypocrite?


I'd like to add to your speculation that, as the Christians say, God is a jealous God. Jealousy, isn't that a sin as well?

I'd like to add another thing, profanity. I personally haven't read anywhere in the Bible that says you cannot curse, of course I haven't read past psalms - its a bigass book and gets boring. But, then why do alot of Christians use curse words? I couldn't give a shit what people say, just gets annoying when Christians say don't curse and then curse right after saying that.

Anyway.

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#43423 - 10/03/10 10:30 PM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: Lamar]
Mr_Lament Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 22
Loc: England.
Swearing and hypocrisy really having nothing to do with religeous persuasion.
I myself have heard utterd from a very strict jewish lady to her children "Stop fucking swearing".
Generally speaking i have come across the train of thought that just because they have a "god" they have some sort of moral high ground and thusly have the mind frame "do as i say not as i do".

Disgusting behavior regardless.


Edited by Mr_Lament (10/03/10 10:30 PM)

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#45442 - 12/22/10 11:06 AM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: Lamar]
Jason King Offline
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Registered: 10/24/10
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The interesting thing is this - it has everything to do with free will. There's a lot of boring theology I could bother everyone here with, but at the end of the day, the Praeternatural Fall occurred as a result of singular freedom. The most pressing dichotomy in Christianity concerns personal autonomy vs. divine providence. It's only fitting that this is our origin myth.

JK
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#45445 - 12/22/10 12:27 PM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
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There is one thing that I can agree with Christians on, "God made man in his own image."

In this case the image is man, Lucifer is you and me.

Plotinus, the founder of neo-platonism, had a concept of the "One".

The "One" is the source of all things, but it is perfect without division, anything that was a division was a "dyad", or two, which was an imperfection. The "One" was made up of a Complex and a Simple, in that to be complex the "One" must also be simple. For instance, I have a sense of me, and my body, a "Complex", but what I consider as a whole is the product of trillions of smaller units called cells, a "Simple". So what am I? A whole or a lump of trillions of cells?

Since the "One" cannot be divided in order to be perfect, it had an argument with its self, and the less perfect was expelled, reflecting the story of a battle and the expelling of an angel from heaven.

What was expelled was like light (Logos), which had a relationship with the "One" like a reflection in a mirror. Since the Logos is still part of the "One" it develops a purpose to return back to the point of perfection, an "envy" of the perfect has arisen, and it develops a mind (Nous) which is a reflection of its purpose to return to the "One".

This philosophy from Plotinus and others explains

1. How it all started (Emanationism)
2. Why the Universe is in motion and change (everything is trying to get back to the "One")

Anyone thinking God is the "One" think again, since a God requires a mind, which requires a dyad to form, and the "One" is perfect so no mind is possible, unless it has been expelled as Logos and then develops "Nous" which then is a mere reflection of the "One".

The ideas of Plotinus has been an influence on Christianity and Islam, and may be reflected in some of their stories, such as that of the fable of the fall of an angel after a fight with God.
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#45626 - 12/25/10 08:07 PM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: mabon2010]
The Zebu Offline
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Mainstream Christian theology has too many limitations and paradoxes to be a reliable arena of debate. Since I'm mainly preaching to the choir here, I'll be brief.

Its primary flaw is it attempts to enthrone a limited, anthropomorphic tribal god as some sort of transcendental monad. Simply put, it puts a human-like god in charge of an inhuman universe.

Secondly, and more relevant to Satanism, Christianity attempts to divide the Kingdom of God against itself, as embodied by the idea that God indirectly created evil, but it never completely redeems evil- opting instead to relegate it to some mode of eternal punishment. If the cosmos is to be "saved" and the whole of creation reunited in perfect goodness, then Satan too must be saved. Instead, God is stuck with an eternal boogeyman, an unbalanced equation-- which is not solved by tossing the Old Serpent into the Lake of Fire. That would be the cosmic equivalent of shoving your own turd under a carpet and calling the room "clean".

In summary, Christianity (and Judaism to a degree) has some nice Platonic vibes going for it, but these are promptly spoiled by giving the Almighty petty human traits, such as being jealous, warlike, and smiting specific countries and social minorities that His worshipers didn't personally like.

Furthermore, the story of Christ's "redemption" of mankind is so terribly nonsensical and convoluted it hardly merits debate here. For those interested I would suggest Celsus's "Discourse Against the Christians", which is an enlightening glimpse of how many educated Romans perceived Christianity as it was still in its infancy.



Edited by The Zebu (12/25/10 08:13 PM)
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#45629 - 12/25/10 09:14 PM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: The Zebu]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
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Zebu, so eloquently stated that anything beyond an expression of admiration would be superfluous.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#45630 - 12/25/10 09:49 PM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
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Posts: 2230
In some ways, I see the move towards theism in Left Hand Pathers to be a need to be part of "that old time religion" that we of the opposite camp seek to divest ourselves of. Whereas we see the dogmatic aspects of Satanism as simply fulfilling a need for ritual in man, and that the rituals that man creates are self-serving and internally focused, the ancients, mystics though they were, were somehow more personally connected to their externalized gods than those of use who wish to take on that godhead of our own volition.

Much of the allure of Satanism for the more pragmatic is the looking within for answers, rather than looking "out there" to some god, or deity or externalized "truth" that is universally shared by all. It's the insular self determination that attracts us, rather than the all-embracing and all-encompassing wish to be part of the whole. We say it in our cultures in many ways... brotherhood... the family of man... e pluribus unum. But for those who reject that united "strength" for the sake of their belief in "inner strength" over imposed "virtues," it's simply a step too far in the wrong direction.

Within every species, we see subsets and offshoots and hybrids that either make it or become footnotes in the evolutionary path. This, to me, is pretty much simply a parting of the ways in the evolution of our socioreligious development. And in the long run, it could be a replay of the Neanderthals and the Cro Mangon, on a societal scale. We will either find a way to set the differences aside or one will eventually be dominant and the other extinct, or absorbed into the whole as an abberant subset.

From where I stand, the internalists, to coin a phrase, will eventually prevail, although I do see man's need for that "external force," and the idea of something larger than oneself. It gives man, if nothing else, something to point to as an inspiration and emotional "gestalt"... a unified whole from which to draw strength. The religionists of every stripe hold the same belief..."WITH GOD WE CAN... ARE... SHALL BE."

We "internalists" simply feel that what man is and what man does is a function of his species. We do because we can. We are simply because we've evolved to be. What shall be is dependent upon our Will.
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#45632 - 12/26/10 04:49 AM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
In some ways, I see the move towards theism in Left Hand Pathers to be a need to be part of "that old time religion" that we of the opposite camp seek to divest ourselves of ... From where I stand, the internalists, to coin a phrase, will eventually prevail, although I do see man's need for that "external force," and the idea of something larger than oneself ... We "internalists" simply feel that what man is and what man does is a function of his species. We do because we can. We are simply because we've evolved to be. What shall be is dependent upon our Will.

The Church of Satan experienced this tension from Day One. There were those who wanted to settle comfortably into a sort of "inverted Christianity" with weekly "services" (on the model of the Satanic Mass shown in Satanis): Satan sitting on God's throne, with his Black Pope replacing the White one, so to speak. Anton toyed with this scenario in the very early days; again you can see some hints in Satanis. But he along with the rest of the Priesthood quickly realized that a mere "dark mirror image" was utterly inappropriate.

Christianity and its fellow OU-reinclusion religions seek to apologize, ritualize, or anyotherize isolate-conscious humanity "back into" that ordering, consistent [O]universality we see all around us. If we could just get back into the Garden of Eden, with this terrible sensation of being uniquely distinct from it erased from our existence, we could all go back to being happy, pre-apple-eating animals.

Satanism knew that it rejected OU-reinclusion as an ideal, but was then faced with the question of exactly what a uniquely conscious self is and should aspire to further-be. And of course we began with the acknowledgement that each such being known to us is, at least in physical 4-dimensional displacement, a piece of that same OU. We were not completely absorbed in it, but we were nevertheless partially integrated with it through the media of our bodies. [This is beginning to sound very Borgy, and perhaps the analogy is not bad at that. ]

Our perception of Satan thus became something much more subtle and complex than a mere YHVH-rottweiler or angelic Wild One. We were looking for the generalized source or principle establishing this sense of disconnection and difference in each of us, because the phenomenon was clearly a commonly-manifest one.

It was also just as inappropriate to anthropomorphize Satan as it is to define each of us by just what we look like.

Hence the metaphysics of the Church of Satan became very complicated very inexorably. I have said many times, here and previously, that if the crisis of 1975 had not occurred, the Church of Satan would have evolved into something like, if indeed not indistinguishable from today's Temple of Set anyway. We are a continuation of that same adventure into that same mystery (Ipsissimus Stephen Flowers' Runa).

When from my personal perspective I look at the 600C, I see in it a seething furnace of this same mystery, this same tension. I can also see very clearly where it's going, but it is a quest which cannot be other than unique to each individual. And some have a lot of OU-conditioning to sort through first.

This same furnace is what I don't see in other "Satanic" forums; and the "Church of Satan" one, from my recent look-see, is hopelessly inert. Years from now it will be exactly the same as it is now, and exactly as useless. The 600C is a nuclear explosion in slow multimotion.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#46429 - 01/10/11 12:37 PM Re: Bible Time! - Riddle Me This [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
The Architect Offline
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Registered: 12/06/10
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I'm not sure if a fully understand this post. your asking a question based on what your religious, drunk aunt said? faith+alchohol=higher state of understanding?


the opposition(or rather the inability to oppose) that you speak of, was voiced by a single intoxicated individual. the foundation upon which this thread was created is invalid, but it did lead to some interesting conversation. At this point, any insight would be speculation; since the nature of angels can not really be observed, and it is a general consensus that the bible and RHP religion is bullshit. thus not only are angels unobservable they are fantasy..and any idea as to what their nature could be, all depends on the individual's depth of imagination.

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