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#43225 - 09/26/10 08:23 PM LaVeyan or not?
Nicholas DePrey Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
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Loc: Sweden
I get the feeling that most of the people here follow the later LaVeyan Satanism and not the Theistic Satanism which I feel was the original Satanism LaVey started with. Not any Gnostic, Spiritual or other Satanistic believers here? Any Diabolists, Luciferians or Setians?

I am not a big fan of the later version of LaVeyan Satanism as it only is Atheism.. I would see myself as a Gnostic Satanist
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#43227 - 09/26/10 08:33 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Nicholas DePrey]
Wake Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 93
Loc: Australia
Hmmmm.

Gnostic Satanism?
Gnostic defined as:
possessing knowledge, esp. esoteric knowledge of spiritual matters.

What does a Gnostic Satanist believe?
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#43228 - 09/26/10 08:37 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Wake]
Nicholas DePrey Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 17
Loc: Sweden
Well, Gnostic Satanism is somewhat Theistic. Traditional Gnostic Satanists view Satan as the bestower of gnosis (knowledge, insight). Lucifer is the "Bringer of Light" in other words Lux Lucis (Lucifer) is gnosis, truth and Divine knowledge.

Lucifer is the god of progress and intellectual inquiry, not only the divine inspiration behind the spiritual enlightenment of the Gnostic and the heretic and the lover of God in all his/her forms.
Through Lucifer's spirit humanity first climbed down from the trees and has represented the flow of progress ever since.

I can add that it can be considered as Luciferianism, but Luciferianism is wide and I am involved in the Gnostic part.


Edited by Nicholas DePrey (09/26/10 08:46 PM)
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#43229 - 09/26/10 08:59 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Nicholas DePrey]
Wake Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 93
Loc: Australia
Thankyou for answering my question.

So, you believe Lucifer/Satan is a living being? Physical or Metaphysical? Or just a metaphor, a represenation like I do?
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#43236 - 09/27/10 03:42 AM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Nicholas DePrey]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
Your feeling is correct concerning the board following the Satanist philosophy as defined by LaVey.
There are a few people here who consider themselves theistic Satanists and there is also the case of M.A.A here.

 Quote:

I am not a big fan of the later version of LaVeyan Satanism as it only is Atheism..

Then you might indulge a bit deeper into the Satanic Bible and authentic writings of LaVey and not the pop-works the CoS produces nowadays. LaVeyan Satanism is not "only Atheism". The adherant will soon notice there are differences in behaviour and thought as soon as he/she starts to work in the outside world. Atheism is but a position towards the concept of god, not an entire philosophy or religion, as you seem to think, in comparisation towards Satanism.
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#43240 - 09/27/10 01:57 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Dimitri]
Sinthesis Offline
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If there is a real Satan running around down there (or wherever), he doesn't seem to take much part in the affairs of the world. I haven't ever seen any miracles from the devil or from God for that matter.

If you're going to tell me "Satan is all around me in every facet of life" then I will nod at your pantheistic attempt to divinify the mundane world and move on.

I became a satanist when I realized Satanism was more than Atheism. To me, being a satanist is being a warrior on behalf of desire, of making human desire unfold from a subjective hope into an external reality. You can be an Atheist and still be a boring useless person who doesn't strive for anything greater, or worse, someone who attempts to repress and crush your own desires. You can even (incorrectly) identify as belonging to some other religion while actually being a rather satanic person.

Whoever says that the idea of Being and Becoming Yourself does not need its own religion does not realize how evil and complex being and becoming yourself can be, nor the revolutionary world-historical consequences which being yourself ultimately requires.
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#43255 - 09/27/10 06:36 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Dimitri]
Nicholas DePrey Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 17
Loc: Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Your feeling is correct concerning the board following the Satanist philosophy as defined by LaVey.
There are a few people here who consider themselves theistic Satanists and there is also the case of M.A.A here.

 Quote:

I am not a big fan of the later version of LaVeyan Satanism as it only is Atheism..

...writings of LaVey and not the pop-works the CoS produces nowadays.


Well, that is what I meant. I'm not a big fan of the CoS production and their stands. I have read the Satanic Bible, not very deep, but I will read more about it.

What is M.A.A?
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#43256 - 09/27/10 06:40 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Nicholas DePrey]
Nicholas DePrey Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 17
Loc: Sweden
Sinthesis: I see Lucifer, Satan and so on as spiritual beeings, and I can explain how I believe that. Not just personal experience but also my scientific view on it. I was Atheist and later Agnostic for a short time after coming from 18 years in church. I saw alot of deep shit in different churches. So I seeked other things. I found LaVey Satanism, but I think that CoS ruined that path for me so I searched more and found my path as it is now.
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#43259 - 09/27/10 10:15 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Nicholas DePrey]
Clicks Offline
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Loc: New Orleans
It kind of seems to me that you really want there to be some sort of higher being, and settled on Theistic Satanism as it best fits what you want to believe right now. It seems like you pulled an appeal to consequences and said "Well, this is what I want, so this must be what there is!" I also don't think, based on what you've said thus far, that you've really given much objective thought to a lot of your philosophy. It sounds to me like your living your life completely in the subjective realm and just trying to find a path that best fits how you think it should be.

tl;dr: You want there to be some sort of god, but not the Christian God, and Satan seemed super cool.

I'd advise some study and some serious introspection.
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#43264 - 09/28/10 10:37 AM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Clicks]
Nicholas DePrey Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
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Loc: Sweden
Well, you don't know me. Religion is one hobby of mine. I have spent years studying Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shamanism, Animism, Egytpian, Greek, Roman Mythology, Asatru and much more. I know very much about this different religions and Satanism is the newest one for me.

Even when I was an Atheist I had a strong feeling that something spiritual exists. And my explanation is quiet simple. There is multiple dimensions which are connected to us exactly like Einstein explained about heigh, length, depth and time. This dimension holds a big question and a big amount of functions. The soul is connected to one of this dimensions and so are we. The soul do exist, no doubt about it. And I believe that the soul is the connection to the spirits of earth. It is not just our imagination that makes us see things, hear things or feel things. The truth is out there, one just has to see it.
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#43266 - 09/28/10 11:30 AM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Nicholas DePrey]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
Even when I was an atheist I had a strong feeling that something spiritual exists.

"Something spiritual existing"? What exactly do you mean with this? Sure it wasn't some sort of crave for belonging?

 Quote:
The soul is connected to one of this dimensions and so are we. The soul do exist, no doubt about it.

The soul does exist.. got any evidence or methods for cutting it out and doing the necesarry tests on, or at least see it with my both eyes? What makes you think it exists, a gut-feeling once again? You can't solve puzzles, mysteries and questions with intuition and "feeling". I sense you have fallen in the bullshit most spiritual engaged persons tend to vomit and disguise as "science" or "metascience".

I doubt you ever were an Atheist if you still believed in ghost-stories.

 Quote:
It is not just our imagination that makes us see things, hear things or feel things.
No, that would be the complex functions and calculations your brain is doing/noticing with the help from your 5 senses.


Edited by Dimitri (09/28/10 11:31 AM)
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#43268 - 09/28/10 12:55 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Dimitri]
Nicholas DePrey Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
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Loc: Sweden
Well, I guess this is not a forum for me, there seems to be alot of atheists here. Not any real satanists anyway. There is no way to prove or disprove the soul and spirits. When I was an Atheist I denied everything even the soul. But as I searched my doubt was earased. And I feel now after that the belief was in me the whole time, I was in denial.

Would you deny that there is more dimension that what Einstein said?


Science is only organized knowledge, and the knowledge about the things you can't see is magick. I believe in magick.

Science and Magick must work together, then we can solve the mysteries of the world. And then we can prove or disprove your or my belief. Arguments about the rest is only stupid.

I live in the most Atheist country in the world and I face questions and arguements every day. And I came here hoping this would be a place for real satanists, not some satanists wannabe aka atheists that hates church.
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#43270 - 09/28/10 01:11 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Nicholas DePrey]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
There is no way to prove or disprove the soul and spirits. When I was an Atheist I denied everything even the soul. But as I searched my doubt was earased. And I feel now after that the belief was in me the whole time, I was in denial.

If there is no way to prove of disproof the existence of A, then why should it automatically be taken for granted A exists? (With A being a construct like God, unicorns, fairies, ghosts, the soul,..).
It is much more reasonable and easier to say that if A cannot be proven or disproven that A simply doesn't exist for the reason you have nothing to start with in the first place.

But if you feel more comfortable in the belief of souls then go ahead. As long as you don't start vomiting wild theories and doesn't cloud your logical reasoning.

 Quote:
Would you deny that there is more dimension that what Einstein said?

I deny the wild theories when it comes to the existence of different dimensions. Einstein on the other hand was also BUT a human and it is possible he made mistakes in his theory, or at least that his theory is incomplete.

 Quote:
Science and Magick must work together, then we can solve the mysteries of the world. And then we can prove or disprove your or my belief. Arguments about the rest is only stupid.

Depends on what you define as magic...
The scientific method is all what is needed to solve and try to understand the mysteries of the world. Magick is only manipulation of gained information (or to some: working with their own lack of knowledge and filling with fantasy).

 Quote:
I live in the most atheist country in the world and I face questions and arguements every day. And I came here hoping this would be a place for real satanists, not some satanists wannabe aka atheists that hates church.

Perhaps instead of closing your eyes and ears for these arguments you should put them wide open. If you think that real Satanists are people believing in fairy-tales and a real man with goat legs then so be it. You do not need to make a scene when leaving because most of the people don't agree with you on this particular topic, you weren't that important and I certainly didn't feel honoured/granted a privilege to talk with you.


Edited by Dimitri (09/28/10 01:12 PM)
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#43271 - 09/28/10 01:57 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Dimitri]
Nicholas DePrey Offline
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Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 17
Loc: Sweden
And why deny that it is not proven?

You should research about dimension before you make a statement.

About what magick is, read Crowleys work.

My eyes are open, maybe you should open them.
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#43272 - 09/28/10 02:05 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Nicholas DePrey]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
And why deny that it is not proven?

Who said I was denying THAT? If you say you can proof the existence of a soul, then go ahead. You'd probably be the very first capable in doing so.. in hopes you at least don't make mistakes in your reasoning or proof.

 Quote:
You should research about dimension before you make a statement.

I might know a lot more about it then you might suspect.. unless you are talking about divine planes and spiritual worlds of all the different religions you claim to have studied. 'Cause in that case I might not know all the names (but will tell and point at the fallacies as soon as the story has been told).

 Quote:
About what magick is, read Crowleys work.

I know Crowley, thank you very much. I simply don't follow some of his logic and metaphorical words. His work is sometimes boring and very repetitive once familiar with his style of writing and "explaning".
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#43274 - 09/28/10 02:45 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Nicholas DePrey]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I think your first mistake is thinking that Satanism is something to be followed. As a Satanist I do not follow anything; I have a certain set of "rules" that I live by, influenced by some but ultimately decided upon me. I can see no reason why someone who professes to be a Satanist could follow anyone, or anything for that matter, besides themselves.

Saying that "LaVeyan Satanism...is only Atheism" shows, I think, a misunderstanding. Yes, it starts with Atheism - an unwavering conviction that there are no Gods but it moves past that and, recognizing mans seeming desire for a god, bestows it on the only person qualified for the job: the self.

Personally, a lot of the ideas contained in TSB resonate with me and are very much a part of who I am but you certainly wont see me jumping down the throat of every "LaVey-baiter" like one is sure to see over at LttD. Nor will you see me on my knees supplicating in the name of some horned creature.

In the end you can call yourself whatever you want; it is who and what you really are that people will see.
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#43277 - 09/28/10 04:38 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Nicholas DePrey]
Knievel74 Offline
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Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 149
Loc: NY
 Originally Posted By: Nicholas DePrey
Well, I guess this is not a forum for me, there seems to be alot of atheists here. Not any real satanists anyway.


It seems like you're making a feeble attempt at insulting the members here. What is real Satanism? Is it believing in some being who never existed? Or not believing in a being who never existed?

 Quote:
There is no way to prove or disprove the soul and spirits. When I was an atheist I denied everything even the soul. But as I searched my doubt was earased. And I feel now after that the belief was in me the whole time, I was in denial.


So, how can you prove we have a soul? What makes us different than the other animals on earth? Just because we're self-aware and understand the concept of time doesn't mean we have a soul. Does that mean that dogs and cats have souls? Is there a doggy or kitty cat heaven?

 Quote:
Would you deny that there is more dimension that what Einstein said?


Yes. Until I see hard, cold facts, other dimensions cannot be proven. It's just a theory.


 Quote:
the knowledge about the things you can't see is magick. I believe in magick.


Awesome! I believe that Angelina Jolie will give me a BJ. Let's both keep believing. A person might have knowledge about the concept of Magick. Or they can have knowledge in the practice of it. But there's never been any proof that it actually works.

 Quote:
Science and Magick must work together, then we can solve the mysteries of the world. And then we can prove or disprove your or my belief. Arguments about the rest is only stupid.


Science is based on intense research and facts. Science and science only will solve the mysteries of the world. Magick is based on make-believe and fantasy.

 Quote:
I came here hoping this would be a place for real satanists, not some satanists wannabe aka atheists that hates church.


Satanism is about a lot of things, including objectivism and undefiled wisdom. So some people here might say that this is a place for real Satanists. But sometimes truth is the hardest pill to swallow.
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#43279 - 09/28/10 04:55 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Knievel74]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Hmmm.

Somehow I seem to have missed all the shit-talking done in this thread. Probably because I only read the first post.

Not wanting to pile on too much I shall submit only this:

 Quote:
There is no way to prove or disprove the soul and spirits.


Correct. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and the burden of proof resides with the person making the positive claim i.e. 'souls exist'.

You make a claim about something and then go on to say that it can't be proven or disproved; so, what is the point? That is like me saying that I have an apple, then you ask me to prove it and I say "you can't prove I don't!" Where does that get anyone? Hint: fucking nowhere!

I think it is best that you do indeed slink away with your tail between your legs as it will give the adults time to talk.

Fare-thee-well.

Edit: Upon second thought I realize that your claim about the inability to prove or disprove spirits and souls is not entirely correct. Many people think that they have seen undeniable evidence in favor of the existence of said things. Whether or not the evidence is sufficient is an entirely different story. At present the existence of such things has not be undeniably proven but that does not mean that such things are impossible to prove. The burden of proof still does reside with the person making the positive claim though.


Edited by 6Satan6Archist6 (09/28/10 04:58 PM)
Edit Reason: Marked.
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#43281 - 09/28/10 06:16 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Nicholas DePrey]
Clicks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 114
Loc: New Orleans
So, you've given study to all this different religions and mythologies, and have not stumbled upon Satanism and now your life is Satan? Did you believe in and follow each of the other religions you studied? Were you able to conform to their rules and beliefs just as easily? And if not, why all of the sudden does Satan seem so real to you?
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#43983 - 11/03/10 07:07 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Nicholas DePrey]
PrinceOfBabalon Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 49
Loc: London
I resent the term Theistic Satanist, not because of its literal definition but because of its implication; degrading forms of worship given to something in the hope of being included and incorporated into it. A cursory glance through any manifestation of the Satanic mythos (Paradise Lost being a good place to start) should lead even the most dim mind to the understanding that this sort of thing is wholly incompatible with the historical/mythological characteristics of Satan.

While for a long time I maintained an essentially atheistic outlook in relation to the existence of any external intelligences (be they Satan, God or any other), I do now feel that there is "something" objective that can be apprehended in particular circumstances and at particular times.

In terms of labels I would prefer Black Magician or Sorcerer to others, as while Satan is the primary manifestation of Darkness that I work with, he is one, synthetic avatar of the ageless Prince of Darkness. Likewise while there is much I like about LaVey's writings I certainly do not hold them as being guide books to living my life and so many would say that excludes me from being called a "LaVeyan".
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#43984 - 11/03/10 10:56 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: PrinceOfBabalon]
deathreaperuk Offline
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Registered: 11/27/09
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Loc: England
i always see theistic and spiritual satanists as having somethibg missing, they seem to not be happy with the "self" and seek some higher entity to appease themselfes.

we all know many years ago foolish talk of omnipotent beings existing was a way of life, They thought appolo opened up the curtains for nignt and day, if there was a tsunami it was hades releasing the kracken. stifled minds through age old dogmas.

if someone actually said that to me id laugh so hard in there face LOL. oo there is a earthquake so satan must be angry in hell. no my friend its called plate tectonics.

the knowledge about the things you can't see is magick ? i say how can you have knowledge in things you cant see. i would not call it magic, id call it speculation.

in my opinion does the soul exist, i say no. and if i did believe basically my soul would be my humanity my "self". not some outlandish claim that i have a soul in some astral plane or other dimention.

frankly i cant see how anyone can believe that beings invented by man can actually exist, i supose if i wrote a book on demonology and made up some new demons, some deluded fools will claim they are real LOL.

frankly to the original poster it seems to me like you are lost and cant distinguish fantasy from reality, is it so frightening to believe that nothing else exists out there and we are nothing more than educated primates.

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#44018 - 11/06/10 02:28 AM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: deathreaperuk]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Science was invented by man. So was the theory of plate tectonics... and fraggles. But I love Fraggle Rock!

I think it would be Neptune, or counterpart Poseidon, who has the power to unleash the Titan under the sea... And it could be Ra, or Apollo, or Helios... riding a chariot pulling the sun along... what a beautiful metaphor!

Poetry Mallory, Poetry.

Contemporary "science" places nice new names for naturally occuring phenomena....("Do doo do do doo") Nevermind, muppets again.

Every day I wake up and live through is "Magic" to me... the way the sun rises... I don't care how you want to explain it... just take a look, it's nice.

How flowers bloom, mushrooms bloom! Children laugh at the craziest shit... Magick.

Maybe it can all be "explained" by "science", but maybe that's missing the point.

The ancient Greeks and Romans had it so wrong in one regard (?), but introduced a system of logic, philosophy, government, plumbing... most of which we still use and study to this day. Some of which are university level courses, and/or majors! Some of which is required reading for business degrees.

All of the "Meterologists" I've ever watched, listened to, or read on the internet got it sometimes right... sometimes wrong. With all their science and doppler radars backing them. And if they did get it wrong, they blamed it on "El Nino"... when that didn't work, they blamed it on "La Nina"... Sounds like "God shit" to me, or is it those damned Mexicans! Screwing with the weather now! I'm half-Mexican, so I do like to screw around with the weather, but only half the time.

So I give you the King Julian approach...

"My sacrifice goes in the volcano, then the friendly gods will eat up my sacrifice, "Mmm thank you for the sacrifice" "please have another sacrifce" "No I've had enough for the day" "listen, I'm going to be very upset if you don't have another" "I don't want another sacrifice ok?!" "Come on you look so skinny!" "No I think I've had enough is that clear?!"......The gods eat the sacrifice..they are grateful, they give me some of their water, and I will give it to you."

If they believe... and it works... 50/50, like "science" does... hell. No prob. Speculation is the word. But if we call it the bird, it's a much better song.

Or do you think we can "control" plate tectonics? Or the weather? "Gods", "Physics"... same to me, one just tries harder to get the same results.

Daeve.

P.S. - I am happy with myself... but if it rains tomorrow... well, I was just doing my part!
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#83436 - 12/18/13 10:18 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Dimitri]
Praetus Offline
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Registered: 10/28/13
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Loc: florida
Its not for me to convert any 1 to anything because i don't know everything,just like no 1 else in here.I don't follow Lavey nor do i follow ford or Crowley .I do have a background in sabbatic witchcraft and occultism that goes back decades and it tells me that all power comes from the devil or opposition.What needs to be remembered is that occult rituals are psychological exercises with mythology containing hidden truths or philosophical lessons.It makes absolutely no difference if you believe in the soul or not as alot of real witchcraft covens don't.Sometimes you need those little rituals to fully grasp the totality of the lesson.
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#83440 - 12/18/13 11:21 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Praetus]
RollinStalker Offline
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Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 41
Loc: san francisco ,Ca
Why Satanism though ? Why not Christian Atheism or Judaic Atheism ?
Just because you wanna do what you want and disagree with main stream religionddoesn't give you the right to label yourself a satanist !
Seriously Christians aren't God worshippers , they just believe in God ! Satanists believe in someone possibly Beelzebub, Kali, Set etc !
Atheism should be just Atheism not satanic , its preposterous!

But I see how some decided to leave the right hand path that the satanic church took and found a whole new path within the ancient Set.
Sadly the right hand path that the CoS took is very atheistic in L.A. and NYC
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#83441 - 12/19/13 02:19 AM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: RollinStalker]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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 Quote:

Just because you wanna do what you want and disagree with main stream religionddoesn't give you the right to label yourself a satanist !


Yes, it does give me that right, because I grant it for myself \:\)
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#83466 - 12/19/13 02:31 PM Re: LaVeyan or not? [Re: Nicholas DePrey]
Aciel Offline
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Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 130
Might I suggest you abstain at this time from making concrete decisions about the archetypes you are referring to. Endlessly debating the anthropomorphic existence of these representations of sinister thought as possibly materializing on this plane of existence is neither Satanic or Luciferian. I assume that you are interested in the LHP because you want to dominate YOUR subjective reality, this will not come to fruition by trying to dominate OTHER people's subjective reality. As a matter of fact, if you are going to approach your practice from a theistic perspective, the ideals you seek to assimilate will not respond kindly to an attitude of faith(so it is said), might I suggest you read some Neitzsche if you are determined to take complete control over your life, the (Satanic or Occult) philosophy will not work if you refuse to see that YOU are the only God that matters weather or not you are Atheist or theistic. The LHP is only 1/2 magical ritual, without serious change in your view of YOURSELF as autonomous in your path none of this will work and you will be wasting your time.
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