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#53363 - 04/23/11 03:27 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
Actually terms like Luciferianism, apotheosis, and Left Hand Path pre-date Anton Lavey and TSB, so I would suggest it was the reverse that he borrowed such ideas from Luciferianism.


I agree with Dan that this argument is one of desperation. If there was truth to it, Luciferians surely didn't need to hang out with Satanists to see what they are all about, then plunder these ideas, polish them lightly and call them their own.

If there was a real tradition, there were real philosophical basics too.

D.

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#53364 - 04/23/11 03:36 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Dan_Dread]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Everything you present comes STRAIGHT from LaVey. EVERYTHING.


Mr Dread, you really think that Satanism, Luciferianism and the Left Hand Path suddenly appeared out of the mouth of Anton LaVey circa 1960's and that nothing like all these things existed before him?

Folk like Madame Blavatsky was using terms like Left Hand Path back in the 1800's way before Anton LaVey came along.
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#53365 - 04/23/11 03:41 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

You do realize I hope Prometheus was part of a conquered "race" by other gods, and for having pity and bringing "fire" to men, he became enslaved?


I know the story of Prometheus.

I also know he was freed by Hercules from his imprisonment.

Today, Prometheus is still held in awe, mankind has his fire and Zeus no longer rules, cast into obscure legend. WIN Prometheus.
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#53366 - 04/23/11 03:49 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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We know the LHP existed before Lavey and that he was merely the first to create a modern description based upon his interpretation. But your claim that since “something” existed before Lavey validates the argument that therefor Luciferianism predates Satanism is as false as Theistic Satanism claiming the same.

If it was, there hardly would be a reason to invent it, and in that, reality itself provides the answer.

WIN Prometheus? C'mon my friend, you can surely provide more to state your case.

D.

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#53367 - 04/23/11 04:18 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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@ Diavolo
Is there any point continuing this debate if you are going to irrationally reject Theistic Satanism as existing before Lavey came along? All Anton LaVey has done is taken a load of pre-existing ideas and assimilated them into his own interpretation.

You apparently reject Theistic Satanism as Satanism, yet in the same breath would happily accept Luciferianism as Satanism. Is there some logic there? If so, I missed it.
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#53368 - 04/23/11 04:25 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Sure there existed Devil Worship before Lavey and very likely there have been groups practicing it, but theistic Satanism as invented these days is new, it has little to do with what was before. So what is irrational about that argument my friend and in what case does it relate to the claim you made?

Again, you keep playing dodge-ball.

D.

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#53369 - 04/23/11 05:07 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Dan_Dread Offline
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This has nothing to do with the age of any ideas that were described as Satanic by LaVey, and everything to do with the fact your 'luciferianism' is very tightly confined within these particular ideas, and despite relentless questioning this has to do with your utter failure to buttress your empty posturing with any sort of substance.

Every single thing about your precious 'luciferianism' is simply rehashed LaVey. You have not added even an iota of originality to it, and as such your position that you are somehow representing something distinctly not-Satanism is comical at best, pathetic at worst. Not to mention your pretending to speak for others when I have yet to meet another luciferian that portrays it even remotely close to how you do.

You sir are nothing less than a joke.
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#53373 - 04/23/11 06:02 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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As I said, I don't mind there being Luciferians but when developing something, there should be something clearly Luciferian beyond the mere name. The others chaps in, or related to, Satanism have their own distinct philosophical basics which are quite recognizable as theirs.

This is clearly lacking in Luciferianism. Add to that the rather sad sentiment displayed by some, claiming how elevated they are compared to us and you get one sorry picture.

D.

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#53374 - 04/23/11 06:33 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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I see no point in continuing this debate, that offers nothing constructive to any side. Speaking with other Luciferians the outlook is to build bridges with fellow LHPers rather than create divisons, see you all as allies. So, I am going to close this debate by saying we shall agree to disagree.

Jeremy Crow, a leading Luciferian had this to say on MySatan today:

"I am not as hardcore about distinguishing Luciferianism from Satanism as most Luciferians tend to be, but there is a difference. I don't require your agreement for this to be true in my life."

I concur with Jeremy Crow.
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#53375 - 04/23/11 06:53 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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No sweat man, if you prefer to not go deeper into this, fine.

If you want to build bridges, you better start learning what Satanism is about and not flood your blog with pompous impressions while at the same time showing very little understanding and a lot of 5-minute impressions.

D.

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#53376 - 04/23/11 06:57 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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So you finally admit you are a laveyan mabon?

Good for you. Must be a relief ;\)
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#53377 - 04/23/11 07:35 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jake999 Offline
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So now LaVeyan Satanism is going to be Luciferianism? I didn't get the memo, and I'm sure that's not what Dr. LaVey had in mind. \:\)
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#53379 - 04/23/11 07:59 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
@ Hegesias

OF DYADS
Yes, I agree one is unable to achieve apotheosis on our own, a dyad, others are required, just as a match needs something to strike against to produce a flame. However, the dyad and self must be in harmony otherwise no flame is produced and one or the other suffers harm. In the context of this ongoing Satanism-Luciferian argument I see only harmony is possible when the Satanists can see Luciferianism as a unique and integrated path in its own right, otherwise this conflict goes on of no benefit to no side.

OF SHADOWS
You may be aware that each Luciferian will have their unique interpretation on various ideas. Of this shadow I have my own, this is a Noctifer, "Dark Bearer", one that is like Zeus and a hater of mankind, that shadow that exists in all of us that would deny our potentialiality if allowed. So thankfully the Lucifer inside us helps us to reach apotheosis against the desire of the Noctifer aspect to keep us unfullfilled and in darkness. I see in this debate I am having with some Satanists such a Noctifer that would deny Luciferians the right to walk in the light a unique and empowering path. Why would we wish to live in the shadows that Satanism does when we can walk in the light. Why are some so determined that we must be in shadow by being caged in the restrictions of the paradigms of Satanists who wish to chain us to their worldview?


Isn't LaVey's Satanism development of the Id?

The shadow aspect keeps us unfulfilled, perpetually awakening the black fire within to receive the burning rays of gnosis. Polarity/duality is a 3rd dimensional phenomena just like linear casual time. Once ascension has ensued this is to bring about the end of experiencing duality.

Vibration densities being change in consciousness levels within dimensional space-time events, The experience of existing in 3rd density, 3rd dimension, may be shadows of 4th density phenomena. This would suggest that our shadow is 2nd dimension. The Sumerians saw that the planets had a consciousness which can be compared to evolution and our global consciousness. But anyways, the fourth dimension would be the shadow of the fifth etc. to the 11th and down to 1st dimension. We can't see what we are being projected from because it exists in the fourth dimension. We experience causal time, the distance between events, as reality is just a shadow of a shadow, reality flows as a stream. Considering that density is just a measure within space-time events. I would take it there are infinite densities?

The 11th dimension, according to this theory, would be the original source of existence. We can hypothesise that the 11 dimensional Chaos burns black holes in the barriers of the universe, allowing Chaos to flood the Universe. Physicists describe black holes the way some religions describe God. Their theories of black holes being engines for both the dynamics of creation and anihilation. Just as the stars are visible in the nightsky though long sine dead, we are the deadlight of dead stars. Chaos is meaningless and beyond the infantile anthropomorphisms of pro-cosmic religions. The work of black magic, strengthens the inner darkness to deluge the internal and external light, darkening the world. The merging of shadows envelop the demiurge's filthy creation. Do you perceive all to be so just because your senses tell you? Is man a faulty existential aparratus? Can we improve or are we merely learning in reverse inexorably that we are dying aimlessly. The real question is how to ensure the impossibility of rebirth.

As above, as below. There is no need to choose one formulation over the other.
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#53391 - 04/24/11 12:07 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Jake999
So now LaVeyan Satanism is going to be Luciferianism? I didn't get the memo, and I'm sure that's not what Dr. LaVey had in mind. \:\)

LOL I am sure you are right, and LaVey would probably roll over in his grave if he knew people like mabon were using his ideas while spitting on his memory. It remains, though, that every single thing about this sort of 'luciferianism' comes straight from the pen of LaVey, albeit interpreted like a monkey interprets algebra. But thats another matter.
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#53392 - 04/24/11 12:26 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jake999 Offline
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Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

LOL I am sure you are right, and LaVey would probably roll over in his grave if he knew people like mabon were using his ideas while spitting on his memory.


Well... he'd churn in his urn fer sure. Yeah... most of what I've read was rehashed, and not very well done. They can't come up with NEW ideas, so the glom onto what works and hope no one notices.
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