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#43518 - 10/09/10 03:23 AM About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to satanism
neurosys Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 26
Loc: san diego, CA
Ok, Let me say right away that I am really trying to find out
what you guys think about basically, the current affairs going on in the world, specifically regarding all the allegations of the coming new world order, the speculation of the illuminati, bilderburgs,obama speeches being reversed on you tube,alex jones, and all the craziness, of all of it, one thing kinda bothers me.

The bad guys in this tale are supposedly satanists (I think most would prefer to designate them luciferians tho so as to distinguish from 'laveyan' satanists).

I think 9/11 was definately rigged, I really do, I said it on that very day, although i wasnt terribly serious at the time I simply said 'wouldn't surprise me if our gov did it to advance some agenda'.

I'm kind of trying to establish that I listen and think about all this media, but I am fairly certain I'm not a nutjob. I'm just trying to think rationally and I am not the most trusting person in the world, but I'm not terribly paranoid either. Also, I am a veteran and I really don't trust our gov.

My question is(FINALLY): Is this just how the xtians choose to demonize this group? Obviously when the black helos and thought police roll out, I wont be spared just by saying 'ITS OK IM WITH YOU GUYS' .. and besides would I even want to be? (well yea technically I would prefer to be on the winning side, but you know what I mean)

My real problem I guess is, if those asswipes are luciferians (I am not even gonna get into the wacky Nhiburi looniness) then where would people like us stand with the Illuminatis(assuming its ALL true)

I always considered myself a Laveyan Satanist since I do not believe in literal deities. I agree with most of Lavey's Philosophy and I love his writing.

Ok, so you got all the way here, and I'm still failing to make a concrete point so my question: what do you guys think about all of the conspiracy stuff you have certainly heard AND does the supposed satanic connection bother you? I remember Samhael used to post alot under conspiracy topics. I havent been here in years btw, but I am fond of this board. I only stopped coming cuz my old lady at the time freaked out about it.

Neurosys
_________________________
The Emperor Has No Clothes.

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#43524 - 10/09/10 05:11 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to satanism [Re: neurosys]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Most people these days just don't give a shit about conspiracy theories regarding 9/11, xian's rants, or Samuael's insane rants.

I hope that helps.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#43525 - 10/09/10 09:39 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to satanism [Re: Morgan]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Conspiracy theories are little more than a way to occupy feeble minds so that they can be controlled by fear. Hell is coming... see your local priest for absolution... the Arabs are coming... see your local priest to get protection from Jesus... the New World Order is coming... etc.

Morgan has it pegged. Most people these days don't give a shit. And I'm here to tell you that if you live long enough, you'll be around for the same stupidity to be come new again, maybe with a more current bugaboo to fear, but the message will be the same... FEAR THEM. Now get back in the herd.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#43527 - 10/09/10 12:46 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to satanism [Re: neurosys]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3114
 Quote:
what do you guys think about all of the conspiracy stuff you have certainly heard AND does the supposed satanic connection bother you?

I heard many conspiracy theories, most of them are a good laugh, others are plain silly and others make me wonder if some people had their brains amputated.
Discussing and debunking conspiracy theories can be a good way to test someones skills for discussion and social/scientific/.. knowledge in general. Most of the time, the one defending the theory would be the one whose information is incorrect or misinterpretated different data (or simply lacks insight and background.. 9/11 theorists tend to have it a lot).

I'm not bothered by the supposed connection. In fact, I like it that way. It keeps the controversy the philosophy brings alive and is an excellent method of seperating the men from the boys.

 Quote:
I think 9/11 was definately rigged, I really do, I said it on that very day, although i wasnt terribly serious at the time I simply said 'wouldn't surprise me if our gov did it to advance some agenda'.

Gut-feeling or have you noticed certain inconsistencies/hints to make that claim? If you have, please share them. The skeptic community demands nothing more (unless it is once again bad science-bad physics stuff).
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#43532 - 10/09/10 04:11 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to satanism [Re: Dimitri]
neurosys Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 26
Loc: san diego, CA
So, would you say that all those architects and engineers for 911 truth are merely fear mongering and that their evidence is 'bad science'?

I make no claim to any special knowledge. But I think, I've gotten my answer, and that's fine. I'm not a theorist by any means, but I'm not close-minded either. If a madman told me the sky was falling, I'd probably at least look up before dismissing his claims.

 Quote:
Gut-feeling or have you noticed certain inconsistencies/hints to make that claim?


The only 'claim' I have made is what I 'think'. I have no proof, I am not personally involved. I'm also not terribly afraid, but I do think the situation would merit discussion among intelligent folks and having that thought in my head, I thought I would ask. Apparently there's nothing to worry about, so I should ignore inconsistencies or I become a radical myself.

I do agree, most people don't seem to give a shit.
Point Taken.
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#43533 - 10/09/10 05:05 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: neurosys]
Aklo Offline
member


Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
There's no big secret about this.



In the 16th century, in the 20th chapter of Il Principe, Niccolo Machiavelli documents some methods by which it is effective to govern a state that has become accustomed to living under its own laws in relative freedom. For convenience sake we can group these into two primary approaches, namely Fortresses and Factions.

By Fortresses we intend to encompass all the methods of the autocratic government, with armed guards everywhere and the use of a monarchy or one-party system in which everyone is expected to toe the line. Good examples of these kinds of regimes can be found in some of the Arab states and in the Union of Fewer and Fewer Soviet Socialist Republics.



On the other hand, in the West and in Weltpolitik, it is common to rely on Factions. By this we mean systems of two parties or more, striving together over side issues and providing a real feeling of competition and free choice but who can be relied on to line up together on any issue that is important to the real rulership.



There are some dangers in this at a national level. As Machiavelli is quick to point to out, it makes for a relatively weak state.

 Originally Posted By: Old Nick
Our forefathers, and those who were reckoned wise, were accustomed to say that it was necessary to hold Pistoia by factions and Pisa by fortresses; and with this idea they fostered quarrels in some of their tributary towns so as to keep possession of them the more easily. This may have been well enough in those times when Italy was in a way balanced, but I do not believe that it can be accepted as a precept for to-day, because I do not believe that factions can ever be of use; rather it is certain that when the enemy comes upon you in divided cities you are quickly lost, because the weakest party will always assist the outside forces and the other will not be able to resist.




But this isn't a problem at the top level, so long as the invaded and the invader are both simply managed as factions themselves. The way to be sure to "win" any significant conflict, is simply to control both sides and exploit them to your own best benefit.



Now if you think that the people who are making a career of bringing these facts to your attention in an inciteful way are somehow on your side, you are sadly mistaken.



Their job is actually discredit the ideas, by rallying obvious crazies around them.



And this is true regardless of which strand of craziness you are coming from.



The moral of this story is



wherever you go



there you are ...

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#43534 - 10/09/10 07:08 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Aklo]
neurosys Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 26
Loc: san diego, CA
 Quote:
Now if you think that the people who are making a career of bringing these facts to your attention in an inciteful way are somehow on your side, you are sadly mistaken.


I would definitely agree with that point. Someone on TV or website telling me the media lies, is still part of the media.

I would add that if one thought world leaders were genuinely concerned with the common good, and not control of the masses, one would also be mistaken. As you pointed out these are quite common and very old political ideas, and certainly nothing new.

Hoo boy, Conspiracy Theory really bad words for me to use, and your right, it does make me an instant looney. A truly devious trapping. About the quote^, thats kind of how I always thought of glen beck, a public rep for the loonies, installed to misrepresent ideas that might otherwise warrant logical investigation into the claims (which are largely stolen from yet other alternative media outlets and made to sound *even* less credible).

I think in the midst of all this eventually, normal, sane and intelligent individuals inevitably begin to notice that not all of the claims are utter nonsense. I've seen this in many forms, like Oath Keepers, for example. They obviously are trying to recognize that something is wrong and refuse (at least temporarily and possibly in vain) to carry out unlawful orders, as all service members and police have sworn.

One I have mentioned already was the Architect and Engineers website. Even if alex jones is a complete shill and whackjob, These people also exist and I can hardly call them all conspiracy theorists.
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The Emperor Has No Clothes.

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#43536 - 10/09/10 09:28 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to satanism [Re: neurosys]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
All practical politics is inherently conspiratorial [unless you're an absolute monarch or dictator]. It's just a question of whose conspiracy theory is most effectively sold, bought, swallowed, and regurgitated.

Jake's comment is also very much to the point: Many people just don't care, particularly if they perceive themselves powerless to change the result of a particular "sale".

On 9/11 I was sitting in a dentist's chair getting my teeth whitened & watching the TV, when WTC1 & WTC2 dropped instantly & neatly into their footprints. Then, presumably just for the hell of it, WTC7 as well. "OK, demolition," I thought & still think. Did it make any difference in subsequent US policy and public obedience? Nope.

Have some fun here, and here's some great reading [Peter McAlpine was an original C/S member and an extremely bright fellow & nice guy.]

I suppose I am one of the Illuminati since there are currently 2,390,000 Google hits saying I am.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#43541 - 10/10/10 06:32 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to satanism [Re: neurosys]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3114
 Quote:

So, would you say that all those architects and engineers for 911 truth are merely fear mongering and that their evidence is 'bad science'?

Quite so..
In fact the site which gives these numbers is inaccurate and full of inconsistencies from top to bottom. I even managed to raise that number by acting as if I was an engineer and supported the whole damn thing. Any person can claim to be one and thus give the impression there are 1000+ architects and engineers raising their doubt on that matter. Another point is the fact there are architects and engineers who are unemployed for having made mistakes in their constructions and raise their voice about this particular topic. And I prefer to not trust an architect/engineer who can't do his job right.

I'm a member of the skeptic community, I'm active on the JREF. There are quite a few conspiracy theorists walking by, spewing their crap and waiting for an answer. During the 10 years after the events we managed to gather quite some information to debunk such theories. Even the 9/11 website you quote/get your information from has been analyzed over and over again and we managed to pull out all the inconsistencies and "bad science". Link: Debunking 9/11

 Quote:
If a madman told me the sky was falling, I'd probably at least look up before dismissing his claims.

I think we have a case of you being overwhelmed by wrong information and being bullshitted loud enough against to take it for granted. Or you just failed to find the right sources for skeptical thinking. Anyhow, the link is given. Do as you please but be aware for continuing this discussion with me to be prepared to have your views be shaken very thoroughly. (Or as I like to say it: a raise of entropy).

@ nutjob with fotos of pressumed signs of the devil by IP:
You make the same sign everyday with your hand when pointing something out. I don't know about you, but I unconsciously make the same gesture when explaining things. Perhaps you should observe people a little bit more and better. Even my teachers and fellow students tend to do this.


Edited by Dimitri (10/10/10 06:38 AM)
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#43549 - 10/10/10 09:11 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Aklo]
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
 Originally Posted By: Aklo
There's no big secret about this.



In the 16th century, in the 20th chapter of Il Principe, Niccolo Machiavelli documents some methods by which it is effective to govern a state that has become accustomed to living under its own laws in relative freedom. For convenience sake we can group these into two primary approaches, namely Fortresses and Factions.

By Fortresses we intend to encompass all the methods of the autocratic government, with armed guards everywhere and the use of a monarchy or one-party system in which everyone is expected to toe the line. Good examples of these kinds of regimes can be found in some of the Arab states and in the Union of Fewer and Fewer Soviet Socialist Republics.



On the other hand, in the West and in Weltpolitik, it is common to rely on Factions. By this we mean systems of two parties or more, striving together over side issues and providing a real feeling of competition and free choice but who can be relied on to line up together on any issue that is important to the real rulership.



There are some dangers in this at a national level. As Machiavelli is quick to point to out, it makes for a relatively weak state.

 Originally Posted By: Old Nick
Our forefathers, and those who were reckoned wise, were accustomed to say that it was necessary to hold Pistoia by factions and Pisa by fortresses; and with this idea they fostered quarrels in some of their tributary towns so as to keep possession of them the more easily. This may have been well enough in those times when Italy was in a way balanced, but I do not believe that it can be accepted as a precept for to-day, because I do not believe that factions can ever be of use; rather it is certain that when the enemy comes upon you in divided cities you are quickly lost, because the weakest party will always assist the outside forces and the other will not be able to resist.




But this isn't a problem at the top level, so long as the invaded and the invader are both simply managed as factions themselves. The way to be sure to "win" any significant conflict, is simply to control both sides and exploit them to your own best benefit.



Now if you think that the people who are making a career of bringing these facts to your attention in an inciteful way are somehow on your side, you are sadly mistaken.



Their job is actually discredit the ideas, by rallying obvious crazies around them.



And this is true regardless of which strand of craziness you are coming from.



The moral of this story is



wherever you go



there you are ...



Lay down your swords to the gods rock 'n' roll!!! \m/ Sorry, I had to.

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#43553 - 10/11/10 01:12 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Lamar]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
I do believe the Government wants us to be the sheep that folow in line. All I can say is don't be that and get the facts and base your decision on what yu know. That's the best you can do. All the rest is BULLSHIT!!!!!

Am I gong to have to delete every single one of your vague, generalist posts you've made thus far? A 15 year old could have written something more astute than what you posted.


Edited by Nemesis (10/11/10 07:43 AM)
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Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#43570 - 10/12/10 02:00 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: manofsteel]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Good thing I don't give a shit about your opinion!!!
_________________________
Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#43571 - 10/12/10 02:34 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: manofsteel]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: manofsteel
Good thing I don't give a shit about your opinion!!!


A word to the wise.

When someone whose name is in green or who tags your posts in green felt the need to contact of correct you, it's not a good idea to give them crap. There lies the path to the way of the DoDos.

Just a friendly piece of advice... must be getting soft in my old age.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#43572 - 10/12/10 03:14 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Jake999]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Do not cast your pearls before swine, Jake. \:D

manofsteel is obviously a moron who is probably not even worthy of lurking here. I sincerely hope that such blatant disrespect for one of our beloved Moderators is met with a swift kick back out the way it came.

"You can't fix stupid."
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#43574 - 10/12/10 07:25 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: manofsteel]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Good thing I don't give a shit whether your account gets suspended or not!

Look, usually I'm not the type to throw my moderator weight around. I prefer to take someone aside, explain to them that their behavior in the office isn't cutting the mustard, and give them a chance to get their act together.

This is me taking you aside and giving you a hint. If you can't take a hint, then clean off your desk and be on your way. If not, then I'll have to do it for you, and I won't be gentle with your ceramic Troll dolls and C3PO collectors plates.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#43603 - 10/14/10 02:22 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Nemesis]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
I am sorry for the quick responses and comments. I appreciate the reading I get on here and have good thoughts but sometimes don't say them so well. I will do much better and thanks all for letting me know. Nemisis, thanks for the chance!
_________________________
Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#43605 - 10/14/10 02:45 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Nemesis]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Nemisis, thanks for giving me the hint! I do think things through but don't always write them so well. I will make sure from now on I take time to write something atleast well thought out before posting. Thanx for giving me a chance, I mean well but sometimes just don't put it that way. Sorry for giving you the shit the other day, thanx for the chance again and hope we'll talk under better circumstances soon, Thanks again.
_________________________
Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#44189 - 11/18/10 08:19 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Nemesis]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
New World Order is a fiction.

Reality, all the nations of the world are too self interested and corrupt to ever work together as NWO idiots claim.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#50384 - 03/03/11 04:01 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Luciferian darkness could never illuminate the minds of the people of Earth because there has to be the adverse strength of the individual to start with and I don't see any evidence that the magority have anything inside them but the false light of ego. The slaves serve the masters—the Luciferian manipulators of light.

But idyllic scenarios aside. NWO is Islam surely? If Islam were to establish their passive order upon the Earth this would be the necessary stage for Luciferian forces to shackle the already slavish beings in one heavy swoop. Putting to use what was left as beast of burden, similar to the oxen. The submissive religion cannot be the NWO surely? Well lets take a look at racial supremacy sect of Zion, now this religious sect is more sinister and subversive—the solemn eyes of the Nazarene. We can see that this force is more powerful and has a solid groundwork embedded in the western culture, and more sophisticated military deployment and weapons division etc.

The urban Satanist, heretic etc. has no place in the hierarchy of any state as far as I know? but who am I, a man, a theorist and inquisitor. Now I know this is some conjecture but the philosophy of Luciferianism in real world terms is going to be secular humanists using powerful subliminal psychology on you from birth. Everything you see is false and created to keep the masses docile with hay and a barn—materialism.

Rather I think that mankind is a sorry sight of grubby content materialists, the appalling amount of impoverished souls on the Earth, the working class diversity, and the independent criminal subcultures. Nature has turned her face from all creation but her beloved adversary who fights for her dignity in recognition of her grace and cruelty. Nature favours Satanists because they are not unnatural.

None government shall sway the adversarial individual in thought nor behaviour, he is unable to submit by design and will die fighting. Laughing defiantly.

Shame we don't have more individuals in society who are willing to step out of their comfort zones and question their surroundings, what they do in motion and what they submit to—the docile ego. The docile ego is given many detrimental subliminals in media and society to drain them, the slaves, of their mental energies and reward them with petty materialistic slave rations, often nonsensical ones like gadgets and gimmicks, much like a grand narcissistic relationship scheme, the government belittle the passive victim and exaggerate it's own abilities and offerings, oblivious to the dependent victim. Contentment is a cleverly crafted weapon of society.
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#53107 - 04/18/11 11:52 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Hegesias]
neurosys Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 26
Loc: san diego, CA
HI ME AGAIN!

And I thought noone cared about this. Thats really what I wanted, what you guys gave me. A discussion about your ideas on the matter.

COOL!

I think most modern people harbor distrust for government and with good historical reasons and I like I said about the madman telling me the sky is falling, I'd still question his motives as well.

I can totally believe the whole thing is fiction, I'm VERY skeptical. Especially when they say the whole thing is ran by luciferians. I'm no luciferian although the officer, who claims to have summoned set according to internet(not sure if this is true), responding to my post certainly made me think(and adequately skeptical).

In keeping an open mind, I also listen to the madmen of the world and the illuminati exposers are linked in with all the internet nutjobs of all flavors. From annunaki channeling youtubers to christian radio endtime prophets to ..well.. ron paul i guess? lol. Kidding.. I kinda like Ron.

I would agree I am overwhelmed with misinformation, aren't we all? I do try to sort out the BS and all of the NWO stuff does seem a bit like a paranoid fantasy. On the other hand, most politicians are paranoid fanatics so.. who knows...

At the end of the day I can't go round worrying about it all, but I'd hate for any topic to be so taboo it could not be discussed.

See you guys new years day 2013. Maybe. :P
_________________________
The Emperor Has No Clothes.

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#53152 - 04/19/11 05:06 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: neurosys]
mabon2010 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
I find this whole NWO/Illuminati idea tiresome. Have people anything better to do like addressing the real big brother issues of their own nation without conjuring up hocus pocus fantasies of NWO/Illuminati?

I am a Luciferian, and for the record we are all focussed upon personal development to be worried about taking over the world.
_________________________
Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#53262 - 04/21/11 02:41 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
neurosys Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 26
Loc: san diego, CA
Well, I kinda figured the whole luciferian angle was disinfo, fantasy or both. Mostly because as you stated, the agendas don't really match up. Also when all the mouthpieces for anti-nwo media are devout christians, that doesn't exactly send the credibility meter soaring.

I don't believe in deities, but I also consider myself to be more concerned with progress than world domination. I guess I just don't like being clumped in with you guys any more than you would wanna be clumped in with us, lol.
_________________________
The Emperor Has No Clothes.

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#53268 - 04/21/11 05:58 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: neurosys]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
This whole NWO-angst that runs rampant on the internet is silly. The Luciferians can't even get an online forum running. The satanists wouldn't be able to control anything because they'd be too busy clubbing the other for the highest rank. And the rest out there, well take a good look and tell me if what you see governing, anywhere, strikes you as competent enough to get the NWO going.
Even those with cash don't need to start an NWO since they already do as they please.

The truth is: none is competent for the Illuminati and if, they're not interested.

The big secret is that there is no secret. Most government have absolutely no clue what direction their country is going and they're already happy when things don't fall apart. There is no long-term vision and many have a hard time solving short-term matters.

The truth is; everybody is improvising and that should terrify you more than this whole NWO idea.

D.

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#53332 - 04/22/11 08:03 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Do you reckon that this fake representation, odd association, is to derail peoples attention from Lucifer principles?

It might be down to marketing, to glamorise a publicly acceptable form of occultism for which interest in the surge of contemporary occult themed movies seems to have gained immense popularity, Harry Potter and such?

I see Satanism and Luciferianism as complimentary to one another, no matter what form or variant, as from what I have encountered this seems to be extrovert / introvert. The Satanism can be used to assert will to power and Luciferianism can be used for shadow work, illumination of the hidden potential, rather than to work with Satanism on it's own.

I have observed people relating secular humanism to Luciferianism but I'd equate Luciferianism to be much closer to Jungian psychology concepts, and more.
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#53334 - 04/22/11 08:44 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Hegesias]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't know why people invent those NWO theories. Maybe it is a messianic urge driving them towards saving others, showing them the hidden truth. Maybe they need this epic enemy, watching and controlling, and in that, affirming they exist.

Big Brother is watching, therefor they are.

The governments don't care. As long as everyone is distracted, none is paying attention to them. As long as people believe something is controlling, they don't realize there is no control at all. That all are just trying to maintain things as they are, solving problems of the past by creating problems for the future. They're ships with no rudder, no compass and a blind captain. As long as there is an NWO to fixate upon, none sees that sooner or later, we are definitely gonna crash into something.

I don't think Luciferians matter much. What I see are people using a label but lacking content behind it. It is as if they desire something different but due lacking material to build upon, they mainly borrow all things satanic, changing something here and there and then claim it to be something completely different. So no, there is nothing complimentary to Luciferianism. At some level, I see it as a degeneration of Satanism which deserved only mockery, should one desire to spend their time with that.

D.

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#53335 - 04/22/11 09:11 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
Yes a lot of the time psychology can be given names and metaphor, I do this. The Anti-Cosmic Tradition is full of embellishment, I dislike books that do that yet I slowly discovered why I was drawn to the underlying theme, the MLO is something I've been studying for a long time and I haven't been able to relate it to Satanism except for the will to power principle and might is right, although twisted to be misanthropic. Lucifer and Satan encompass as one in the same but are different aspects in the tradition. I look at things in a scientific and psychological way and use these paradigms for Chaos Magic theory but the anti-cosmic tradition has stuck due to the nihilism and shadow work, aside from being humorous in a morbid way, workable for my propensity. Due to a disorderly mind I require metaphor and distinct terminology to even remember anything, plain text is almost impossible for me to remember, this is why I like Nietzsche's style in Zarathustra for example, it sticks in my head for contemplation for I feel what is behind it.


May also explain my often annoying style of writing, an inability to plan and inability for the work to live up to the inspiration that creates it.
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#53337 - 04/22/11 09:52 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Babylonian Dream Offline
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 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
New World Order is a fiction.

Reality, all the nations of the world are too self interested and corrupt to ever work together as NWO idiots claim.

And there is too much political instability to have this never once leak. And who is running it? The banks alone? Obviously no government is. If the banks as some suggest run it, which banks? And why doesn't this stuff get leaked?

Their ideas don't even add up, and wouldn't even if we were in a world that would allow for such a conspiracy.
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#53342 - 04/23/11 04:49 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I don't think Luciferians matter much.


A subjective opinion, but to me Luciferianism matters a great deal. The fact we are opposed on so many ideas about Luciferianism shows that on the Left Hand Path Luciferianism exists in its own right, apart from Satanism.

Luciferianism is about apotheosis, free of dogma, gods, religion, gurus and churches. Each walker of the Luciferian path creates their own meanings, symbols and philosophies.

I laugh whenever I hear that NWO and Illuminati are associated with Luciferianism, as what has that got to do with apotheosis?
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#53344 - 04/23/11 08:36 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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As I said, waving a banner but no content. You know as well as I that you've been evading the "what's it about" question for months and we both know too that it is purely because there is nothing which isn't entirely based upon Satanism.

Even your little description here provides evidence for that.

D.

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#53345 - 04/23/11 08:42 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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@ Diavolo
All you can see from is from a Satanist point of view, so you attempt to project Satanic ideas upon Luciferianism, but then it defies your attempts as it has no limits or boundaries (there are two Luciferian axioms for you).

Luciferianism is part of the Left Hand Path, as is your Satanism, it is not part of Satanism, and never will be.
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#53347 - 04/23/11 10:29 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Hegesias Offline
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I can observe that you are dedicated to self development yet individuality can sometimes let us to believe that we oughtn't have anything in common with anyone else. I'm not an expert and I do not consider myself wholly enlightened nor mysteriously attuned with the cosmos. My take on Luciferianism is not so different to ideas within psychology, although it will be regarded as shadow work with gnostic terminology I have got to keep myself entertained ha.

The terminology may differ. Annihilatory apotheosis, endarkenment, these may not sound like positive things but if one would try and understand the contextual reversal of terms and what comes of the process which I will attempt describe.

I can see that humans are prone to compartmentalisation yet we are all humans so we are bound to exhibit and harbour many of the same qualities, especially if we are among the adaptable and the environment we live in is very much the same, as is for lots of us in urban areas. By affirming that we are "alike" insofar as working towards common ideals, we will be able to know ourselves as to know oneself is to study oneself in the presence of others, if you want to create a "self" which is isolate from others this can be appealing to some occultists who may live a cocooned and boring existence, but whoever of us looks into the dark waters of the the unconsciousness will still see the face we never show to the world which is covered with the persona. The shadow is a dynamic part of our personality and therefore wants to thrive in some form. It cannot be argued out of existence. Still, one oughtn't confuse concepts and assume that everything underneath the persona is worth embodying or contrastingly are not honest with yourself, it is possible to be cultivating an illusion (the demiurge ego). One can grow from experience and mature as a person to truly appreciate freedom and the mundane (not ONA context). Instead of focusing on and exaggerating out inner demons and keep reliving them, we can change the memories or 'demons' and see them as comical and absurd. People often dismiss the power of laughter because we are taught not to laugh at all manner of things, in fact laughter is aggressive by nature and yet another human faculty that is repressed by Christianised society "oh my god that's not funny you cruel person!" one may thicken one's shadow by dancing with other people's demons (demonology) bringing trouble and danger onto oneself which will make one stronger "what does not kill makes strong". Many people who shine a compensatory ego will be reduced to a devastating worthlessness upon facing the shadow cast by this ego, and yet for others we regard the commonly held as "negative" aspects (violent propensity, malevolence, fears) as "positive" aspects to be nourished and mixed with the ego, of impurism, of mixing with the morbid shadow dissolving the illusions of black and white egoistic thinking and synthesising, merging these poles into a "grey evil". As a pure black evil manifesting uncontrolled on the physical plane would annihilate existence itself (abstractionless impulses to murder, abtractionless emanations of suicidal nihilism etc) we instead blend the blackest aspects of our nature into the ego with deliberation, the shadow permeates the ego and nourishes it positively annihilating the brightly shining self denial of the foolish ego (the demiurge) which would cast a negative shadow with it's negative false light, instead the will to power is turned inward to issue oneself commands to enter the shadow for we as individuals have the power to look into the light of the world and see darkness there. This is not the same as creating a negative shadow as if one turns away from the light one will only see darkness, instead to look into the cold light of day and see darkness there, and to look at ones shadow in the cold light of day and see what shines there dissolving the compartmentalization we have cultivated. He who is enlightened by developing the thickest shadow, at the darkest night of the soul, does only that of it's own luminescence, shine brightest.
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#53348 - 04/23/11 10:55 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Hegesias]
mabon2010 Offline
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@ Hegesias

OF DYADS
Yes, I agree one is unable to achieve apotheosis on our own, a dyad, others are required, just as a match needs something to strike against to produce a flame. However, the dyad and self must be in harmony otherwise no flame is produced and one or the other suffers harm. In the context of this ongoing Satanism-Luciferian argument I see only harmony is possible when the Satanists can see Luciferianism as a unique and integrated path in its own right, otherwise this conflict goes on of no benefit to no side.

OF SHADOWS
You may be aware that each Luciferian will have their unique interpretation on various ideas. Of this shadow I have my own, this is a Noctifer, "Dark Bearer", one that is like Zeus and a hater of mankind, that shadow that exists in all of us that would deny our potentialiality if allowed. So thankfully the Lucifer inside us helps us to reach apotheosis against the desire of the Noctifer aspect to keep us unfullfilled and in darkness. I see in this debate I am having with some Satanists such a Noctifer that would deny Luciferians the right to walk in the light a unique and empowering path. Why would we wish to live in the shadows that Satanism does when we can walk in the light. Why are some so determined that we must be in shadow by being caged in the restrictions of the paradigms of Satanists who wish to chain us to their worldview?
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#53349 - 04/23/11 11:20 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
@ Diavolo
All you can see from is from a Satanist point of view, so you attempt to project Satanic ideas upon Luciferianism, but then it defies your attempts as it has no limits or boundaries (there are two Luciferian axioms for you).

Luciferianism is part of the Left Hand Path, as is your Satanism, it is not part of Satanism, and never will be.


As ever Mabon, you dodge the content and stick to vague nonsense. What you do is take a glass of wine, add some ice to it and then declare it to be an exquisite drink while in reality you're drinking watered down wine.

Now mind you, I truly don't care that there are Luciferians but seeing how you even fool yourself into thinking you created something unique, makes me wonder how much it all is worth in reality. All I see is hot air.

If I'm wrong; please bring some "luciferian" content to the table and show me, instead of always fleeing this request in nonsense.

D.

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#53350 - 04/23/11 11:41 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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@ Diavolo
I am only reacting and replying to what is being presented in front of me. I am unlikely to reveal much unless you ask the questions. Most of what I am having to reply to is just vague statements and lacks anything concrete to answer to. If you want to see "Luciferian content" then ask the questions.
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#53351 - 04/23/11 11:59 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Ok, an easy one; what parts of luciferianism did not originate in Satanism and what besides the label is different?

D.

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#53352 - 04/23/11 12:46 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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You know the answer is 'nothing' D so I can only assume this question is rhetorical :P

If there is anything to it, it is certainly well hidden.
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#53353 - 04/23/11 12:54 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Ok, an easy one; what parts of luciferianism did not originate in Satanism and what besides the label is different?

D.


With respect those are hard questions. These are two questions.

1. "what parts of luciferianism did not originate in satanism"
Where did Satanism start? What is Satanism? Are we dealing with sources in Sumerian times? Are we dealing with Hebrew, Islamic or Christian sources? Are we looking from the Theistic Satanist point of view? Or are we looking from that of Lavey? And which definitions of Satanism are being applied, since there are many "churches" and interpretations. As to Luciferianism, it branches out to a multiple outlets and comes in from multiple sources. Unless Satanism and Luciferianism is fixed with clear sources then no answer is possible to this question.

2. besides the label is different?
Lets compare axioms.
1. "to walk the path of apotheosis".

Do Satanists walk such a path as Luciferians do?

Lets deal with the above axiom first of all and we will then move onto others.
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#53354 - 04/23/11 01:13 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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I don't really see them as hard questions.

You don't provide much of an argument for the difference. Lucifer is based upon the Satanic Satan since there is nothing which leads to a similar archetype. Sure Satan is a romantic interpretation compiled from several sources, no disagreement there, but Lucifer is the same Satan having changed name and then acting as if he doesn't know the other fellow.

To walk the path to apotheosis surely sounds nice and dandy but again, purely borrowed from the satanic “you are god” and “driven towards improving”. Describing it fancily doesn't hide the source.

Next.

D.

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#53355 - 04/23/11 02:07 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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@ Diavolo

MYTHOS
Lucifer is equivalent to Prometheus. Your Satan comes either from the Christian-Hebrew version, the Book of Job, or out of the mind of Anton LaVey, none that reflect Prometheus.

LUCIFERIAN AXIOM 1
"Walking the path to apotheosis".

You have given two apparent Satanic axioms that fail to match the Luciferian Axiom 1.

"You are god"
Not to the Luciferian who is walking the path to become a god, they do not consider themselves gods, but people working to become a god. You apparently claim the Satanist has already crossed the finish line of being a god, however the Luciferian is still in the race.

"driven towards improving"
To what end? The Luciferian Axion 1 states the end purpose of the Luciferian journey, yet the Satanist merely sees their end of the path as mere improvement.


Edited by mabon2010 (04/23/11 02:08 PM)
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#53356 - 04/23/11 02:29 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Let's be honest, Lucifer, like Satan is borrowed from the Bible with the sole difference that Lucifer never referred to the Devil. That you guys are more aligned with the Promethean archetype I've pointed out before and as such, I find it quite strange you don't call yourselves Prometheans.

Prometheus however is a completely different archetype compared to Satan and when looked at from the modern perspective, a white-light archetype.

Let's cut the crap with this Luciferian axiom stuff, you made that up recently in an attempt to build an own philosophy. In itself, that's good but it takes more than rephrasing to create something unique.

Satanists don't consider themselves gods in the literal or endgame sense, as anyone having some insight would notice, and when having this knowledge, one directly sees you're trying to argue your difference by first turning a similarity into a “different” Satanism to compare with. It's not really what I consider a solid defense. So either you don't know Satanism too well and as such, evidently, don't see the similarity or you see it all too well and this is the only escape to save face.

D.

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#53357 - 04/23/11 02:56 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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@ Diavolo

MYTHOS
You Satanists, unless you add to the archetype of Satan, rely upon the Christian-Hebrew Book of Job for your Satan, an angel in the direct employ of the Christian-Hebrew god. Some Satanists add to this by taking an interpretation of Anton LaVey (circa 1960's) where he associates the Satan with man rather than angels.

As to Luciferians, we refer to Book of Isaiah but have more room for interpretation as follows:
1. A King of Babylon.
2. Latin translation : "Light Bearer".
3. Hebrew translation : "shining one, son of the dawn".
4. Planet Venus goddess of love.
5. A consort, and their twin, to a moon goddess.
6. A play on the name of the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar II and the connection via his name to Nabu god of Wisdom.

From all these bits of information associations can be built up to the likes of Prometheus to Lugh to the Neo-Platonist Demiurge.

Satanists have to work hard to get their archetype from an angel enslaved to the authority of a Christian god to something that they claim to be themselves (a god).

AXIOMS
Luciferianism is a Left Hand Path philosophy, the Luciferian Axiom 1 is a self evident truth which should not be a surprise to anyone who is a Luciferian: "walking a path to apotheosis".

You said:
 Quote:
"Satanists don't consider themselves gods in the literal or endgame sense.."

So your claim for Satanism “you are god” is untrue?

I have presented you with a Luciferian Axiom, so is it true or not that Satanists follow such an axiom? If not, then you have one difference between my path and that of Satanism.
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#53358 - 04/23/11 03:02 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: mabon
1. "to walk the path of apotheosis".


This seems to be your favourite distinction. Do you not realize this is what LaVey was talking about in the essay 'the god you save might be yourself' from TSB? Your one example of a luciferian axiom that is not of Satanism, comes straight from TSB?

The word clueless comes to mind. Got anything else?
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#53360 - 04/23/11 03:11 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Dan_Dread]
mabon2010 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread


 Originally Posted By: mabon
1. "to walk the path of apotheosis".


This seems to be your favourite distinction. Do you not realize this is what LaVey was talking about in the essay 'the god you save might be yourself' from TSB? Your one example of a luciferian axiom that is not of Satanism, comes straight from TSB?



Actually terms like Luciferianism, apotheosis, and Left Hand Path pre-date Anton LaVey and TSB, so I would suggest it was the reverse that he borrowed such ideas from Luciferianism.
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#53361 - 04/23/11 03:13 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Dan_Dread Offline
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LOL. Site some sources, or gtfo of here.

You are spiralling further and further from reality...

Everything you present comes STRAIGHT from LaVey. EVERYTHING.

You are not fooling anyone.
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#53362 - 04/23/11 03:15 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
Satanists have to work hard to get their archetype from an angel enslaved to the authority of a Christian god to something that they claim to be themselves (a god).


You do realize I hope Prometheus was part of a conquered "race" by other gods, and for having pity and bringing "fire" to men, he became enslaved?

Me thinks to see a "pot and kettle" argument at this level.

D.

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#53363 - 04/23/11 03:27 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
Actually terms like Luciferianism, apotheosis, and Left Hand Path pre-date Anton Lavey and TSB, so I would suggest it was the reverse that he borrowed such ideas from Luciferianism.


I agree with Dan that this argument is one of desperation. If there was truth to it, Luciferians surely didn't need to hang out with Satanists to see what they are all about, then plunder these ideas, polish them lightly and call them their own.

If there was a real tradition, there were real philosophical basics too.

D.

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#53364 - 04/23/11 03:36 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Dan_Dread]
mabon2010 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Everything you present comes STRAIGHT from LaVey. EVERYTHING.


Mr Dread, you really think that Satanism, Luciferianism and the Left Hand Path suddenly appeared out of the mouth of Anton LaVey circa 1960's and that nothing like all these things existed before him?

Folk like Madame Blavatsky was using terms like Left Hand Path back in the 1800's way before Anton LaVey came along.
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#53365 - 04/23/11 03:41 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

You do realize I hope Prometheus was part of a conquered "race" by other gods, and for having pity and bringing "fire" to men, he became enslaved?


I know the story of Prometheus.

I also know he was freed by Hercules from his imprisonment.

Today, Prometheus is still held in awe, mankind has his fire and Zeus no longer rules, cast into obscure legend. WIN Prometheus.
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#53366 - 04/23/11 03:49 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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We know the LHP existed before Lavey and that he was merely the first to create a modern description based upon his interpretation. But your claim that since “something” existed before Lavey validates the argument that therefor Luciferianism predates Satanism is as false as Theistic Satanism claiming the same.

If it was, there hardly would be a reason to invent it, and in that, reality itself provides the answer.

WIN Prometheus? C'mon my friend, you can surely provide more to state your case.

D.

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#53367 - 04/23/11 04:18 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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@ Diavolo
Is there any point continuing this debate if you are going to irrationally reject Theistic Satanism as existing before Lavey came along? All Anton LaVey has done is taken a load of pre-existing ideas and assimilated them into his own interpretation.

You apparently reject Theistic Satanism as Satanism, yet in the same breath would happily accept Luciferianism as Satanism. Is there some logic there? If so, I missed it.
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#53368 - 04/23/11 04:25 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Sure there existed Devil Worship before Lavey and very likely there have been groups practicing it, but theistic Satanism as invented these days is new, it has little to do with what was before. So what is irrational about that argument my friend and in what case does it relate to the claim you made?

Again, you keep playing dodge-ball.

D.

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#53369 - 04/23/11 05:07 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Dan_Dread Offline
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This has nothing to do with the age of any ideas that were described as Satanic by LaVey, and everything to do with the fact your 'luciferianism' is very tightly confined within these particular ideas, and despite relentless questioning this has to do with your utter failure to buttress your empty posturing with any sort of substance.

Every single thing about your precious 'luciferianism' is simply rehashed LaVey. You have not added even an iota of originality to it, and as such your position that you are somehow representing something distinctly not-Satanism is comical at best, pathetic at worst. Not to mention your pretending to speak for others when I have yet to meet another luciferian that portrays it even remotely close to how you do.

You sir are nothing less than a joke.
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#53373 - 04/23/11 06:02 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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As I said, I don't mind there being Luciferians but when developing something, there should be something clearly Luciferian beyond the mere name. The others chaps in, or related to, Satanism have their own distinct philosophical basics which are quite recognizable as theirs.

This is clearly lacking in Luciferianism. Add to that the rather sad sentiment displayed by some, claiming how elevated they are compared to us and you get one sorry picture.

D.

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#53374 - 04/23/11 06:33 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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I see no point in continuing this debate, that offers nothing constructive to any side. Speaking with other Luciferians the outlook is to build bridges with fellow LHPers rather than create divisons, see you all as allies. So, I am going to close this debate by saying we shall agree to disagree.

Jeremy Crow, a leading Luciferian had this to say on MySatan today:

"I am not as hardcore about distinguishing Luciferianism from Satanism as most Luciferians tend to be, but there is a difference. I don't require your agreement for this to be true in my life."

I concur with Jeremy Crow.
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#53375 - 04/23/11 06:53 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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No sweat man, if you prefer to not go deeper into this, fine.

If you want to build bridges, you better start learning what Satanism is about and not flood your blog with pompous impressions while at the same time showing very little understanding and a lot of 5-minute impressions.

D.

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#53376 - 04/23/11 06:57 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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So you finally admit you are a laveyan mabon?

Good for you. Must be a relief ;\)
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#53377 - 04/23/11 07:35 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jake999 Offline
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So now LaVeyan Satanism is going to be Luciferianism? I didn't get the memo, and I'm sure that's not what Dr. LaVey had in mind. \:\)
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#53379 - 04/23/11 07:59 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Hegesias Offline
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 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
@ Hegesias

OF DYADS
Yes, I agree one is unable to achieve apotheosis on our own, a dyad, others are required, just as a match needs something to strike against to produce a flame. However, the dyad and self must be in harmony otherwise no flame is produced and one or the other suffers harm. In the context of this ongoing Satanism-Luciferian argument I see only harmony is possible when the Satanists can see Luciferianism as a unique and integrated path in its own right, otherwise this conflict goes on of no benefit to no side.

OF SHADOWS
You may be aware that each Luciferian will have their unique interpretation on various ideas. Of this shadow I have my own, this is a Noctifer, "Dark Bearer", one that is like Zeus and a hater of mankind, that shadow that exists in all of us that would deny our potentialiality if allowed. So thankfully the Lucifer inside us helps us to reach apotheosis against the desire of the Noctifer aspect to keep us unfullfilled and in darkness. I see in this debate I am having with some Satanists such a Noctifer that would deny Luciferians the right to walk in the light a unique and empowering path. Why would we wish to live in the shadows that Satanism does when we can walk in the light. Why are some so determined that we must be in shadow by being caged in the restrictions of the paradigms of Satanists who wish to chain us to their worldview?


Isn't LaVey's Satanism development of the Id?

The shadow aspect keeps us unfulfilled, perpetually awakening the black fire within to receive the burning rays of gnosis. Polarity/duality is a 3rd dimensional phenomena just like linear casual time. Once ascension has ensued this is to bring about the end of experiencing duality.

Vibration densities being change in consciousness levels within dimensional space-time events, The experience of existing in 3rd density, 3rd dimension, may be shadows of 4th density phenomena. This would suggest that our shadow is 2nd dimension. The Sumerians saw that the planets had a consciousness which can be compared to evolution and our global consciousness. But anyways, the fourth dimension would be the shadow of the fifth etc. to the 11th and down to 1st dimension. We can't see what we are being projected from because it exists in the fourth dimension. We experience causal time, the distance between events, as reality is just a shadow of a shadow, reality flows as a stream. Considering that density is just a measure within space-time events. I would take it there are infinite densities?

The 11th dimension, according to this theory, would be the original source of existence. We can hypothesise that the 11 dimensional Chaos burns black holes in the barriers of the universe, allowing Chaos to flood the Universe. Physicists describe black holes the way some religions describe God. Their theories of black holes being engines for both the dynamics of creation and anihilation. Just as the stars are visible in the nightsky though long sine dead, we are the deadlight of dead stars. Chaos is meaningless and beyond the infantile anthropomorphisms of pro-cosmic religions. The work of black magic, strengthens the inner darkness to deluge the internal and external light, darkening the world. The merging of shadows envelop the demiurge's filthy creation. Do you perceive all to be so just because your senses tell you? Is man a faulty existential aparratus? Can we improve or are we merely learning in reverse inexorably that we are dying aimlessly. The real question is how to ensure the impossibility of rebirth.

As above, as below. There is no need to choose one formulation over the other.
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#53391 - 04/24/11 12:07 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Jake999
So now LaVeyan Satanism is going to be Luciferianism? I didn't get the memo, and I'm sure that's not what Dr. LaVey had in mind. \:\)

LOL I am sure you are right, and LaVey would probably roll over in his grave if he knew people like mabon were using his ideas while spitting on his memory. It remains, though, that every single thing about this sort of 'luciferianism' comes straight from the pen of LaVey, albeit interpreted like a monkey interprets algebra. But thats another matter.
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#53392 - 04/24/11 12:26 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jake999 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

LOL I am sure you are right, and LaVey would probably roll over in his grave if he knew people like mabon were using his ideas while spitting on his memory.


Well... he'd churn in his urn fer sure. Yeah... most of what I've read was rehashed, and not very well done. They can't come up with NEW ideas, so the glom onto what works and hope no one notices.
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#53404 - 04/24/11 10:28 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
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I think this fully answers the question:

 Originally Posted By: mabon2011
This issue came up during several battles I had with Satanists. The Satanists were confused as to what Luciferianism was. They asked what are the axioms of Luciferianism? “Axioms” a brilliant word, a set of self evident truths that a Luciferian would recognise without needing to explain it. We need to find these Universal truths – the axioms – and it is around these axioms that Luciferians can construct their worldview and separate themselves from Satanists.


D.

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#53416 - 04/24/11 07:13 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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Here follows my list of twenty Luciferian axioms. Each Luciferian has their own interpretations;

1. Express the human potential.
2. Go beyond.
3. Embrace the whole.
4. Embrace the simple.
5. Embrace the magical.
6. Embrace growth.
7. Embrace the dyad.
8. Self first.
9. No master but self.
10.Responsible self.
11.No limits.
12.No boundaries.
13.Feet in both worlds.
14.In concordance.
15.The thinker.
16.The wise.
17.The philosopher.
18.The creative.
19.The doer.
20.The enabler.


Edited by mabon2010 (04/24/11 07:15 PM)
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#53417 - 04/24/11 07:23 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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That's not the point my friend. The point is that you guys create a label first, apparently because you want something different, and only then, after people point out there is no own content, run around like headless chickens desperately trying to scrap something together.

Normally it is the other way around and people have philosophical differences with something, develop that which is different, and only then use a descriptive label to distinguish it.

You guys are shiny examples of what I called “wannabespecialism” since that is evidently the major drive behind this all.

Do you start to see why none takes that Luciferianism of yours serious?

D.

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#53419 - 04/24/11 07:53 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: mabon2010
Here follows my list of twenty Luciferian axioms. Each Luciferian has their own interpretations;

An axiom is a concrete statement. "The _____" is not an axiom, but a concept. Many of these are directives/commandments/imperatives instead of declarations of fact. Sheesh, even the Discordians can come up with axioms:

"There is no Goddess but Goddess and She is Your Goddess."

That is an axiom--a statement of fact, a complete sentence. You know: subject, verb, object? Do Luciferians not believe in grammar?


Edited by XiaoGui17 (04/24/11 07:54 PM)
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#53421 - 04/24/11 08:51 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: XiaoGui17]
Hegesias Offline
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I can't say that I affirm any of Mabon's axioms except 2 and 4. The omega steadily reveals to open the portal to Sitra Ahra. Lucifer's light will only be darkness to the eyes of the blind. The burning rays of gnosis are beyond the limited media of words.
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#53430 - 04/25/11 12:43 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Hegesias]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I am starting to see the problem. How can mabon establish a basis for his philosophy if he doesn't understand what an axiomatic premise IS.

An axiom is a self evident statement of fact. The sun is hot. Gravity pulls toward center of mass. The world is adversarial. These are 'axioms'

Nada single one of your 20 soundbites qualifies. You suck at philosophy, mabon.
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#53433 - 04/25/11 02:53 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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If this:

 Quote:
Each walker of the Luciferian path creates their own meanings, symbols and philosophies.


is true.

Then why say this:
 Quote:
All Anton LaVey has done is taken a load of pre-existing ideas and assimilated them into his own interpretation.


That does nothing to validate your claim that Luiferianism exists as a coherent and original philosophy. At least Anton LaVey didn't deny the fact that his Satanism was an amalgamation of ideas from others who came before him.

 Quote:
Jeremy Crow, a leading Luciferian had this to say on MySatan today:

"I am not as hardcore about distinguishing Luciferianism from Satanism as most Luciferians tend to be, but there is a difference. I don't require your agreement for this to be true in my life."

I concur with Jeremy Crow.


First off - what makes someone a "leading Luciferian"?

Secondly - if Luciferians create their own meanings etc, can't any one of you claim to be a "leading Luciferian"? And if so, doesn't that defeat the purpose of considering anyone to be a "leading Luciferian"?

Third - "I don't require your agreement for this to be true in my life" is just a retarded thing to say.

If you want to call yourself a Luciferian, Rastafarian, Pescatarian or Michelangelo Cornwallace Beethoven Arch Duke of the Principalties of Happy Go Merry Fuck Yourself in the Ass Land Esq. PhD - fine. But there is a chance that people, when inquiring as to what the hell you are talking about, might not take you seriously when you essentially describe it as 'whatever I say it is'.

You may have honestly thought you had found (created?) something new and unique but you were surely mistaken. There's really no need to feel bad about it. There have been a lot of people that have existed before you, I and everyone else who currently lives. Coming up with something completely new, especially something like a philosophy - which as a school of thought has existed since man could think - is a lofty if not wholly unattainable goal.

There is much to be said for innovation but there is certainly nothing wrong with going with what works.
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#53435 - 04/25/11 03:58 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
mabon2010 Offline
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@ Diavolo
There is nothing official, formal or dogmatic in Luciferianism unlike say Laveyan Satanism which has its handbook (Satanic Bible), its "Church" the Church of Satan, its "guru" Anton LaVey. Since you have those type of structures you have something already pre-packaged to hang onto, foundations to build on. Not much thought or effort has to go into being a Laveyan - buy the book, pick up the membership card, follow the handbook and label yourself as such. Nothing like this exists in Luciferianism, and so if this means you have contempt for us, then so be it.

@ XiaoGui17
The 20 axioms I put together are in my own words, they express the spirit of what Luciferianism is. There is nothing formal in Luciferianism, you will have to look beyond words and formailties to grasp what I mean behind my humble attempts to construct them for you.

@ Hegesias
I understand your metaphors.

@ Dan Dread
I am sure I could convert these simple words into such formal axioms like your own, it does not make them less real and self evident to a Luciferian, even if you remain blind to them.

6Satan6Archist6
Luciferianism does not exist or have to validate itself to any external master. It becomes alive to the individual walker of the path.

To be "leading" one only has to be a "leader" by pushing forward into new territories of Luciferianism. Jeremy Crow is a founder of the Luciferian Research Society, he is "leader" of the Ordo Luciferi, his contributions to Luciferianism figures in the top 10 of Google searches, he is a major contributor to the promotion of the path to outsiders. He has earned the right to be "leading".

Luciferianism is very much a DIY spiritual path, nothing is pre-packaged. Much what a Luciferian does is subjective and done on instinct. Certainly there is an argument for an objective writing down of many of the ideas and concepts of Luciferianism which is behind the move for getting Lucipedia.net off the ground. Of course I have my own individual interpretations, symbols, mythos, ideas and "process" for Luciferianism called Monadic Luciferianism, but that is mine, not others. The risk of mechanising, formalising or structuring Luciferianism has the potential risk of undermining the basis of Luciferianism, that each walks their own path free of the chains of bondage, which includes dogma. Fine line is walked when one starts to place structures on this path.


Edited by mabon2010 (04/25/11 03:58 AM)
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#53439 - 04/25/11 08:25 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Are you kidding? What you have effectively said is you are making luciferianism up as you go along.

This means the word 'luciferian' describes nothing but the day to day activities of 'mabon'. Yet you still use the word 'us'.

One can only assume you have multiple personality disorder.
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#53443 - 04/25/11 10:03 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Dan_Dread]
mabon2010 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Are you kidding? What you have effectively said is you are making luciferianism up as you go along.


BINGO! That is exactly what I am saying!

Each Luciferian constructs their own unique path. Those axioms I produced for your pleasure are the only thing that "unites" us.
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#53445 - 04/25/11 10:38 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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No my friend, the point is there is nothing worth being called a Luciferian philosophy besides the inevitable urge to be one, based, solely and completely, upon this urge to be different.

To be leading, one does not require as much a leader and those to be led, as possessing the knowledge where to lead to and for what reason.

This is a bit like Moses talking to the crowd stating; we are the Chosen and I will lead you, somewhere, somewhen, and we'll get there the moment I figured out what the heck this Chosen implies.

No surprise it took him forty years to get out of that desert.

D.

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#53449 - 04/25/11 11:49 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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"LEADING" "LEADER" "AUTHORITY"
I accept the arguments that there are no "leading" no "leader" and no "authority" in Luciferianism.

EGREGORE AND Anton LaVey
It is my observation that it is argued that Luciferianism is no distinct group, but are really just something somehow existing in reference to Anton LaVey.

Luciferianism, whilst it apparently has no structure, dogma or official authorities like Laveyan Satanism does, has a point of reference that allows a Luciferian to say they are a Luciferian as distinct from say a Laveyan or a Christian, but also to participate in a group project like for instance Lucipedia. This reference point is the egregore known as Lucifer.

In a match between Anton LaVey and the Egregore (Lucifer) there is no contest. Anton LaVey has x-thousand followers harking back to the 1960's. The Luciferian egregore harks back thousands of years back to when Prometheus was created and beyond. Anton LaVey and the egregore he has created is not as strong as the Luciferian egregore due to time, numbers of participants over the time they existed and the spiritual and emotional investment in the egregores. The huge failure of the Laveyan egregore is that lack of spiritual and emotional basis of its creation, so already it is starting to fracture and die soon after the death of Anton LaVey.

AXIOMS
All paths have axioms. Luciferians are primarily lone wolves in the LHP, they never needed to be objective, to have to validate themselves to others outside of their own subjective experience. The fact it was all subjective than objective, and that they (Luciferians) were working by instinct rather than by externalised constructs as like Laveyans do will not invalidate their path. It just means work is being done to extract what is subjective and then put it to paper. If the outsider has a problem with this, well I can only tell it how it is, though why should we have to validate ourselves to others? I do so, because I need a surface to strike my match against to produce a flame, and thus it is useful to my own apotheosis, and to see what may need to be done as per Lucipedia to answer such questions as are raised by Laveyans.


Edited by mabon2010 (04/25/11 11:52 AM)
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#53450 - 04/25/11 12:04 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Look my friend, what we are doing here is, besides what you interpret and admittedly is a degree of contempt, is pointing at an undeniable weakness radiating throughout that which you are trying to sell. It is an empty shell and as long as you keep trying to fool us into believing it is a solid product, you are also fooling yourself.

A schism from anything first starts with a disagreement, then a realization why exactly one disagrees and a development of these. Then slowly it might grow into something separate and distinguishable. When I look at the ToS or ONA, or even JK's approach of postmodern Satanism, I see content.

Yours lacks and is “made up”, hastily improvised, as a desperate attempt trying to defend against rather obvious remarks. It does not look as if you care much about content and put most importance upon appearance.

If you want to be a Luciferian, quit behaving like a child, and put some actual effort into developing it, instead of wasting time defending that which is currently nothing but a label.

D.

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#53451 - 04/25/11 12:46 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Hegesias Offline
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Interesting, I differ insofar as regarding my subjecture as false, yet more to the point, my regarding my subjecture as false and working to negate everything as false, necessity is maybe revealed, even so there is not point as ego is already formed and faulty, having been influenced by all manner of unnecessary things. As Skaff mentioned before on these boards, true comedy lies in excessive misfortune. I sometimes laugh at peoples complexity as I see no point in even thinking about nor acknowledging a faulty earth but to pick out the necessity and natural stimuli.

The whole earth needs to be wiped clean of civilisation so man will evolve and start again, we are built on a faulty foundation, the current earth is only a practice round at best and so shall the next be slightly improved yet I'd regard improvement as to be wild and uninhibited, the point of no return would be when we evolve to complete self mastery and realise that our emotions are unnecessary. 2nd density consciousness is present among the animal kingdom, we are in 3rd density consciousness, when we evolve to 4th density there will be no duality, we will probably be dispassionate robots of flesh, regarding one another as expendable assets, working toward technological advancement without emotion.

I just read an article that made me laugh in disgust, it was called "Do animals have emotions?" and the line that got me was "Many scientists now believe that animals feel emotions too". As if such a thing had to be intricately formalised since the birth of civilisation till now when the great revelation came to the advanced minds of modern scientists.

Every living creature feels emotion in order to survive, humans simply regard themselves as having superior everything to animals because humans are tantalised in subjective absurdity that is all unnecessary, making themselves more stimulated, which does not mean we feel more than animals, it only means we can convince ourselves that we do.

What was disgusting about the article was that the apparently enlightened humans can feel things like , "jealously, embarrassment and love", these aforementioned "emotions" are moral abstractions and they aren't anything but mental illness or at best, unnecessary psychodrama for cultivating stimulation, unconsciously, such abstraction has no place in nature and such is subvert detachment, because we do not live out our propensity and create unnecessary complex subjecture to convince ourselves we are having a good quality of life when most of us will never bathe in the blood of the hunt nor take women as we please, we have to settle for a life of slave morality and inadequate compensatory stimulation/satiation. Animals feel fear and have aggression, they also have empathy which spans affection and sadism. Just observe a wolf as he rips the groins from large prey, look at wolves displaying active submission, or a primate who's infant has died. Simply because man can detach themselves by analysing and totally misunderstanding himself does he feel he is enlightened.
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#53458 - 04/25/11 01:41 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Hegesias]
mabon2010 Offline
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Posts: 259
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@ Diavolo

WEAKNESS
It appears because Luciferianism lack the sort of structures, rules and authorities as say that of Laveyanism you think my path as weak, but to a Luciferian this is a strength. The Laveyan has a jigsaw puzzle with a picture that is already known, and you therefore would have to conform to that established picture. The puzzle that is Luciferianism has no such picture to work towards, so that means the resulting work that the Luciferian puts together when they fit the pieces together, is more reflective of their own uniqueness and individuality, which puts them closer to apotheosis than any pre-packaged path like Laveyanism could. I see only strength in Luciferianism by its lack of structure and packaging.

SCHISM
There is nothing to create a schism about. I have never considered myself a Satanist, I consider myself as part of the Left Hand Path of which Satanism is just one branch and Luciferianism is another. I am happy to debate with you as it is useful to me and to Luciferianism, but I have no need to fight to create a schism from Satanism because Luciferianism has always been separate from you. If there be conflict, it is only because someone may try (unsuccessfully) to assimilate Luciferianism into their little "empire".

DEVELOPMENT
That is the joy of being a Luciferian, to carve out our own meanings, symbols and unique path in Luciferianism on our way to apotheosis.
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#53462 - 04/25/11 02:09 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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First, I'm not a Laveyan, as should be quite obvious.

What you lack is content, evidently from this flows a lack of structure, rules and authority, since those simply can't appear if there is nothing they can build upon. It seems hard to get this through and every rebuttal is dodging this critique with responses side-stepping the issue.

Also, a schism, while originating in religious split-offs, applies here too. The basics are obviously from Satanism and you (try to) reshape them into something else; Luciferianism. I seriously don't mind that and am rather satisfied you don't insist on belonging to the satanic “empire” since some evolutions here are already depressing enough. That you distance yourself from it, I can only applaud to. As such, there is no conflict with Satanism and all criticism only flows from individuals pointing at a clearly copied concept and a clearly lack of differentiation.

So again, stop defending something which clearly is “under construction” by building a mythos while the obvious priority should be on the very development itself. If you don't focus upon that, Luciferianism will remain nothing but a fad. Close to a decade ago, I've seen similar attempts and when looking around these days, very few of them managed to survive.

D.

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#53468 - 04/25/11 03:10 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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@ Diavolo

NOT LAVEYAN
You are not Laveyan, nor am I.

CONTENT
I thought I made it clear there is no structure, authority, dogma to Luciferianism. There are axioms, there is the Luciferian egregore, and there is the overall aim to achieve apotheosis, beyond these three things the Luciferian builds their own path.

SCHISM
There is no schism, for Luciferianism is one path of LHP, Satanism is another. There is no conflict, a debate perhaps.

"UNDER CONSTRUCTION"
The only construction in Luciferianism is each Luciferian constructing their own paths on their way to apotheosis. What is there to defend?
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#53469 - 04/25/11 03:15 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
mabon2010 Offline
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@ Hegesias

SIMPLICITY
I get from your words that you try for the simple by ripping away the junk in things. An idea that I agree with.
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#53470 - 04/25/11 03:22 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Ah well, I give up, this is as productive as trying to reason with a Jehova.

D.

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#53476 - 04/25/11 04:37 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
Hegesias Offline
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Well you'd be wose off trying to get me to disbelieve in Conan mythology, I won't give it up I tell you, never, Conan is real!

Anyway, we are all people aren't we, and if we keep trying to be too different we'll end up with all sorts off odd ends and scraps to cling to because the positive ideals are probably more common than we think, yet differ superficially?

@Mabon, I think some of these other folks are trying to relate to you and tell you it's not so bad to have some things the same?
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#53479 - 04/25/11 04:59 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Hegesias]
mabon2010 Offline
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@ Hegesias

I found the debate here useful, and I enjoyed it. I achieved gnosis on a number of points, which I thank those who participated for. Each walks their own path, which in order to achieve apotheosis may mean being unable to conform to the worldview of others.
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#54016 - 05/06/11 04:32 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
neurosys Offline
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I thought luciferians were theists, but you said on like page 2 that they were free of gods. I though if you were a theist you believed that lucifer is real, not symbolic, aka a deity. I MAY BE COMPLETELY WRONG ABOUT ALL OF THIS.

The first time I read LaVey I was like 11 years old, I remember putting down TSB and saying wait, I don't believe in god, so satan must also be fiction. Years later around 25 years of age, I came across some occult pdfs and I just cant resist a forbidden tome and theres my old pal Anton. This time I caught the bits that had eluded me in my youth, the bits about it being a philosophy, with no need for the deity delusion. I was so pleased to find that I could embrace a philosophy without sacrificing my belief that deities live only in the human mind. So to me, the theist issue is kind of a deal breaker. I also like how I am not compelled to agree with everything Lavey believes, mainly, his obsession with fat chicks, no offense ladies but I like em slim :P. I enjoy knowing the author of my chosen philosophy is a living breathing human, with fears and faults, perversions and pride, etc..etc..
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#54021 - 05/06/11 05:31 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: neurosys]
mabon2010 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: neurosys
I thought luciferians were theists, but you said on like page 2 that they were free of gods. I though if you were a theist you believed that lucifer is real, not symbolic, aka a deity. I MAY BE COMPLETELY WRONG ABOUT ALL OF THIS.


Luciferians reject worship of entities therefore are no theists. They see Lucifer as a symbolic aspect in all things that encourage us to reach our full human potentiality i.e apotheosis.
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Monadic Luciferianism is a philosophy of life centered on self.

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#54034 - 05/06/11 09:17 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
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"They see Lucifer as a symbolic aspect.."

Lucifer, Satan, Set, Prometheus, the Devil, and etc...
Most Satanists here view them as symbolic or archetypes.

So Mabon if you don't worship lucifer like a theist, then why do the other Lucifeians who worship Lucifer as a deity use the same name.

or is there another name we should use for the Luciferians who worship Lucifer like a deity?

M
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#54041 - 05/06/11 11:57 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Morgan]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I think Mabon is just making this shit up as he goes along.

He's spending so much time trying to invent/defend Luciferianism that he doesn't know who the fuck he really is.

Mabon, go live in a cave in the Himalayas for a while. Meditate upon your existence. Just live your life, quit trying to ascribe labels to every goddamned thing. You're smothering yourself by trying to stitch a quilt of mis-matched philosophies. It's sad.

I don't call myself anything except "Human".
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#54047 - 05/07/11 04:26 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Nemesis]
Diavolo Offline
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He's suffering a severe case of Listitis; must make lists... must define... must classify.

I heard the symptoms can be so severe, people become incapable of actually doing something.

D.

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#54050 - 05/07/11 04:58 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Morgan
Those that worship Lucifer as an entity are Theistic Satanists, not Luciferians. There is no such thing as a Theistic Luciferian, just idiots pretending to be Luciferians.

@ Nemesis
A lot of what is Luciferianism is a self-made path.

@ Diavolo
You asked questions along the lines of wanting definitions and lists, so I provided them.
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#54051 - 05/07/11 05:42 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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Now stop and take a good look at all this and realize what you are doing.

There are no theistic luciferians, only idiots pretending to be. Doesn't this too feel quite familiar?

They are right, you are so desperately trying to create something, you at the same time destroy any credibility it might get. All over the internet, you show the same condition; Listitis. It's definition after definition after definition. They change constantly while you're improvising. Luciferianism seems to be the path of the shopping-list.

Worst of all, it clearly shows there's no meat to the bone; only desire.

D.

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#54055 - 05/07/11 09:36 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/10
Posts: 259
Loc: The Commonwealth of Great Brit...
@ Diavolo
Lists, definitions... what is wrong with that? The Luciferian paradigm is being placed into an objective and refined context, partly due to your questions and issues you are raising.

Lists and definitions are easier on the brain than a vast essay which risks TL:DR syndrome.

For example, I have a a list of 20 axioms, which though they are minimalist and may not be costructed in the classic long winded way are easy to remember and to understand. The axiom "self first" is something all LHP walkers will recognise. From these 20 axioms I have 20 dimensions to allow me to format arguments and decisions either using the Socratic Method, Deduction, Dialectic or if forced by Inductive reasoning.

As to no meat on the bone, are you merely complaining that Luciferianism should be more complicated than it needs to be? Take ONA philosophy for instance, that is highly complicated, but it should not need be.


Edited by mabon2010 (05/07/11 09:38 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
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#54056 - 05/07/11 10:00 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Diavolo Offline
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This might be a surprise but I don't consider the ONA philosophy highly complicated at all. The praxis is, even if that isn't as much complicated as it is demanding. And that is where the emphasis lies, in ONA and in Satanism; a practical path, not a list of easy to digest axioms people have to memorize.

When I observe you, I not only see a Moses but, at the same time, someone playing the burning bush. You invent your “chosen people”, invent the “promised land” and then appoint yourself as their savior. I can predict with certainty there will be no exodus, nor an arrival at the land of milk and honey. You'll find out that slaves only dream of freedom and if they'd really desire it, they'd not need to be led.

Luciferianism seems to be nothing but a vehicle serving a need, a crude and sloppy copy where the real importance lies solely in what you perceive as your role in it.

D.

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#54057 - 05/07/11 10:51 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
mabon2010 Offline
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@ Diavolo
"a practical path" : so is Luciferianism, it is to be lived and expressed.
"Moses" : interesting view, I am more Marco Polo, an explorer and recorder of Luciferianism.
"burning bush" : to me equivalent of Prometheus holding aloft a flaming torch.
"slaves" : there are no slaves in Luciferianism, sheep won't make it.
"milk and honey" : equivalent to achieving the full human potential.
"led" : I am no guru, mentor or leader, I just hold aloft a torch.
"vehicle serving a need" : correct it is a vehicle of apotheosis.
"role" : I walk a path that I share with others.
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#54058 - 05/07/11 11:35 AM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: mabon2010]
Nemesis Offline
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Mabon: You won't find many Luciferians, and even fewer who agree upon the same tenets, because your "branch" or "sect" isn't coherent enough to attract anyone. I understand gaining hordes of followers isn't necessarily the goal of an LHP philosophy, but no one can relate to Luciferianism because it's all over the place. Is it theism? You say no. Is it Atheism? Well, not quite. The confusion begins there, and your tortuous, convoluted interpretations/explanations only serve to further confuse and alienate those who are trying to understand it. And it's not just you personally, who I applaud for sticking it out as long as you have, despite taking knocks from all comers.

That's the crux of the issue, and one that also dogs many Satanists. Theistic vs. Atheistic. Which is one of the reasons why Mr. Aquino decided to break away from what he felt was a hypocritical atheistic interpretation of Satanism which has since been coined as "LaVeyan Satanism".

There are two Satanic paths (Setian philosophy is completely different, so it doesn't factor in), Heretical Christianity/Literal belief in Satan ie Theism, and Satan as an archetype ie Atheism. The two paths can co-exist and still remain somewhat relevant.

Luciferianism seems to try and strike a balance between the two, and that is where I think it needs to get off of the fence and make up its damned mind. Otherwise it's no better than hodge-podge Wicca, minus the fat, naked hippies.
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#54059 - 05/07/11 12:25 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Nemesis]
Diavolo Offline
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That's what I try to make him understand all this time. There is no coherency, no meat, no distinct content. Anyone having half a brain will immediately point out; “Isn't that resembling Satanism a lot?” If you just borrow a whole philosophy and slap another name on it, all you really do is show you want to be different. Not that you differ.

As such all this sort of Luciferianism will attract are those not as much involved with the LHP as being subject to their ego. “Look how special I am in my being different”. This Luciferianism is a bottom-feeder branch, a dead end for those who weren't going anywhere to begin with.

But our chap is so absorbed in his “quest” he doesn't even notice the fundamental weakness of what he evangelizes.

D.

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#54064 - 05/07/11 05:03 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Diavolo]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
That's what I try to make him understand all this time. There is no coherency, no meat, no distinct content. Anyone having half a brain will immediately point out; “Isn't that resembling Satanism a lot?” If you just borrow a whole philosophy and slap another name on it, all you really do is show you want to be different. Not that you differ.
D.


But this is nothing new in Satanism. Hell, half of the Satanists that have come on line with some spiffy new interpretation of an interpretation of an interpretation have all done the same thing. Some borrow from Crowley, some borrow from LaVey, some from de Grimston, some from Aquino, and ALL can tell you in detail why their Satanism is the true Satanism, or not Satanism at all, but some totally new concept, even though it sounds and feels the same as everything that came before.

It's simply a matter of "Satanism as anything I want it to be." Now in this case, it's "Luciferianism as anything I want it to be." And even there. there's nothing new and much rehashin of the rehash that came before. But one can't expect anything more when it's pretty much the status quo.
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#54331 - 05/11/11 12:56 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Jake999]
Thule Offline
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I think he makes sense. This form of luciferianism is basically like Taoism. One cannot explain the Tao- it must be experienced. We use certain metaphors or axioms to help one arrive at a gnosis of the Tao. It's very Zen like.

By it's nature such a zen philosophy is devoid of any dogma. Either you understand it or you don't.

This is also more about a character. You are born with a certain character or you simply acquire a certain nature. You do not convert to luciferianism you simply ARE this way or you aren't.

I just think perhaps the name confuses some, because typically when we think of Satanism we think of a philosophy in accordance with it.
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#54335 - 05/11/11 01:30 PM Re: About NWO, Illuminati, and their claim to sata [Re: Nemesis]
The Zebu Offline
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 Quote:
There are two Satanic paths (Setian philosophy is completely different, so it doesn't factor in), Heretical Christianity/Literal belief in Satan ie Theism, and Satan as an archetype ie Atheism. The two paths can co-exist and still remain somewhat relevant.


This is a gross oversimplification, as most Satanists have vastly different definitions of what "Satan" is, both in theistic and atheistic currents.

This divide only exists on a demographic level, inasmuch that on the internet, people who prefer the label "Atheistic Satanist" tend to congregate together, and those who prefer the label "Theistic Satanist" also congregate separately.

If there is any real division, I would analyze Satanism as being either "active" or "passive"... whether one simply 'accepts' a form of Satanism because of ideological/aesthetic agreement, or one 'creates' their own form as a way of challenging their limits.

We all engage in some variation of the two, but they cross the ideological lines of words like "literal" and "symbolic" that do not accurately describe the overall nature of Satanism.
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