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#43682 - 10/18/10 02:03 AM On the Concept of Marriage
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
Just about every night when I go to sleep my mind will wander and think of random things. One particular night the concept of marriage came to me. To be "legally" married (which is irrelevant) it seems one would have to play into the Christian union of man and woman in the eye of God. Upon entertaining this thought I did away with the common view of marriage completely and built upon it ground up in my mind. First and personally, marriage could be a sacred or intimate bond between two individuals, heterosexual or homosexual, expressing the profound love for one another. I think it is a shame the way Christians ridicule homosexuals and won't tolerate a same sex marriage, referring to them as "abominations." In all reality legality of any "marriage" is irrelevant as it is up to the couple. The government and the church cannot tell us who we are in love with. This marriage is a personal thing and would vary from couple to couple as in the so called sin adultery. Anton LaVey touched upon this also, for some people it is unnatural to have more than one sexual partner and the opposite is true.

Another thing that struck me was premarital sex. I don't think that having sex before you are married is inherently bad or wrong. But then I started to think, if I had a partner who I was genuinely in love with, in my own personality and the way I am I would only want to be with that one particular person. Call me oldschool. Perhaps it was the way I was raised, though I still would not consider it wrong if I had premarital sex.

If I were ever to get married and it were up to me about having a formal Christian wedding, I would decline it. I would rather have a more intimate wedding paying homage to our carnal love for each other than to degrade ourselves even tolerating a Christian value just to be a "legally" married couple. A "Satanic" wedding even if not recognized as a legal marriage would represent more of a true marriage anyway.

Upon thinkng about all of this my mind further explored the genuine love felt between couples and children. It would seem to me that the result of the love shared between me and my partner would end in a gift for my partner, a child. I love you so much that I give to you this gift, and you give to me. Children are the gifts from one parent to the other. This is the sacredness I was talking about above, why I would stay with my one partner.

Just my thoughts.

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#43701 - 10/19/10 02:38 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Lamar]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Lamar,

You don't need a church to have a "Legal" wedding... you don't even need a priest...

You might want an Elvis though, for future considerations. Just to make it "fun".

Satanists can be married, and they can have a "Satanic Wedding" if they want. We can do things like this... and it's totally legal. All you need is someone who has the "authority" to legally marry two individuals... and this is why the debate on hetero vs. homosexual marriages is so valid and makes no sense, as you said in more words.

I have been married only once, but it wasn't in a church, there was no priest... we just paid a dude after I got the marriage license, then it was done. Me, my soon to be wife, and this old guy... there might have been some staff present.

It was completely legal, I assure you. And no family members were present. We could have made it crazy if we wanted though.

Seems like you've made things more complicated than they really are... and maybe that's a good thing. But you don't seem like the kind of person who is going to go on a marrying rampage.

Maybe I misunderstood you... but, your post seems to go in a few directions.

But yeah, A child...

Do you have children?

A "child" together seems like a beautiful thing, and I guess it can be, for some kinds of people I've never met. Kidding, only a little... I like the idea of a child with someone I love......

And I'll end it there.

Daeve.
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#43704 - 10/19/10 08:02 PM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: daevid777]
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
 Originally Posted By: daevid777
Lamar,

You don't need a church to have a "Legal" wedding... you don't even need a priest...



I know this. This is what I said in my post.

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#43706 - 10/19/10 09:19 PM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Lamar]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

I think Dave is too nice to say it so.....

 Originally Posted By: Lamar
 Originally Posted By: daevid777
Lamar,

You don't need a church to have a "Legal" wedding... you don't even need a priest...



I know this. This is what I said in my post.

No you didn’t. You did go on to say and I quote.

 Originally Posted By: Lamar
To be "legally" married (which is irrelevant) it seems one would have to play into the Christian union of man and woman in the eye of God.


 Originally Posted By: Lamar
I would rather have a more intimate wedding paying homage to our carnal love for each other than to degrade ourselves even tolerating a Christian value just to be a "legally" married couple.

And this…

 Originally Posted By: Lamar
A "Satanic" wedding even if not recognized as a legal marriage would represent more of a true marriage anyway.


So even though you said this:

 Originally Posted By: Lamar
In all reality legality of any "marriage" is irrelevant as it is up to the couple.

You did not say this:

 Originally Posted By: daevid777
Lamar,

You don't need a church to have a "Legal" wedding... you don't even need a priest...


Thank you, have a nice day.

~T~

*No quotes were abused or tortured in the making of this post. ;\)
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#43709 - 10/19/10 11:47 PM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: ta2zz]
Lamar Offline
member


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 226
Loc: Alabama
Well regardless, I meant that you did not have to have a church in order to have a wedding. Apologies. What I meant was you don't even need legality for a real marriage. "Playing into the Christian value in the eye of God", I was referring to the view of Christian prejudice that says no two men or women can be married. Anyway, sorry for the mix up.
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#43710 - 10/20/10 02:01 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: ta2zz]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
*No quotes were abused or tortured in the making of this post. ;\)


You're really trying to give daevid777 a fucking heart attack, aren't you Ta2zz?! Another "smart-ass" has popped onto the scene of quoting people.

Now, back to the topic...

Lamar, you need a hobby or something. Marriage is not always Christian based. Here in the recent years, I can't tell you how many I've been to that has said NOTHING about a religion/God in their ceremony. My other half and I went to the Mayor with our own ceremony written out, no God included, said our vows and partied our asses off the next day for our reception. The next 5 years (while we lived in that city) we were asked by family and friends when our next "party" was going to be.

As for SSM, that should have been legalized long, LONG ago. As for multiple partners, provided that NONE of them can draw on our current support system, like welfare then they should be able to, also. They must be able to support themselves and their extended family. I think this is part of what's wrong with our system of help now. But that's all ready been discussed over and over again on this board.

As for the "gift" of a child...?

You can give anyone a "gift" but be very prepared for what follows with having a child with your partner of choice. Life changes completely with children, sometimes more than people expect. Remember, you share that gift after you give it.

**On a side note..... When I first typed this out quickly I wrote, "Another "smart-ass" has pooped onto...."! \:o
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#43711 - 10/20/10 02:20 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Lamar]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
In my best "Topol" voice... "He's Rright."

"Hee's Rright too"

No? Young people these days...
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#43712 - 10/20/10 02:51 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Nyte]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Nyte,

I thank you for watching out for my coronary arteries, seriously. However, I know how Ta2zz does things... and I've known him (sorta, at least his style) for a very long time...

In this case, he actually was correct in his use of quotes, as much as I hate to say it due to my shout box antics. He used them specifically though... and those were just the right instances for which I made my post.

I think Lamar, if he or she didn't mean to say such a thing, incorrectly typed a very confusing post, hence my entire post and my attempt at a sort of disclaimer at the end of it.

The multiple partners thing was just a joke of sorts on my part, you could find more on the subject of Polyamory... which has been beaten to death with a very large, blunt tree trunk...

I'm for keeping "marriage", in the legal sense, to only two people, only because it's already fucked up to do taxes as it is... let's not bring any more trouble in our lives. And, yeah, the government aid thing. (But I don't think that's an issue for most polygamists. That would be a new topic, and it would be interesting, but check polyamory first.)

Kids can make you crazy... -er.... just watch out for what you want. If you really want a child, then it's in your mind, if your partner wants a child, same. If you talk about it, and really want that sort of thing "together", then it's great. Just understand the fantasy of the thing, and the reality are completely different.

Like when the "Gift" want's a Nintendo DS. The "Gift" needs school supplies. The "Gift" needs new clothes. The "Gift" needs braces. The "Gift" wants a Car. The "Gift" got accepted to college. The "Gift" is that you can't pay for that college or university... The previous owner of the "Gift" wants to get rid of you... so you must pay a "gift" to the "Gift" owner until he or she is eighteen years of age. And that "gift" to the "Gift" makes things really bad for you... and you're bled dry every month, and the "Gift" keeps asking for cash and clothes... and the "Gift's" handler moves on with a rich boyfriend or something, but you still pay the same damn thing every month out of your sucky ass pay... and you hate, and hate... and you want to kill, but you start drinking or doing meth... then you're broke all the time... get kicked out of your shitty apartment, lose your job, hate yourself, and you just want to die.

But you weren't talking about that Lamar... you were talking about LOVE. And that lasts FOREVER.

And THAT, my friend, is a beautiful thing.
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Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#43713 - 10/20/10 02:51 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Lamar]
Knievel74 Offline
member


Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
 Originally Posted By: Lamar
you don't even need legality for a real marriage.


Are you referring to Common Law marriage or just making a commitment to each other? If you're talking about Common Law marriage, not every state recognizes it. In some states, you need to be married by someone who is licensed in order to be recognized by the state as a married couple.
_________________________
"Man was meant to live, not just to exist". - Evel Knievel

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#43716 - 10/20/10 06:25 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: daevid777]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: daevid777
Nyte,

I thank you for watching out for my coronary arteries, seriously. However, I know how Ta2zz does things... and I've known him (sorta, at least his style) for a very long time...

In this case, he actually was correct in his use of quotes, as much as I hate to say it due to my shout box antics. He used them specifically though... and those were just the right instances for which I made my post.


I know Daevid, I was poking fun. A couple of times posting lately, I've gotten in a rush to get the posts finished due to time restrictions and should have been more vigilant about what I was posting. For that, I do apologize. I haven't been serious about the whole "quote fun", except to heed your advise, so not to worry. I figure if I can't laugh at myself when I do fuck up with something silly once in a while, then something is seriously wrong with me. Right? And I am glad you won't have a heart attack.

Back to topic again....

 Originally Posted By: daevid777
I think Lamar, if he or she didn't mean to say such a thing, incorrectly typed a very confusing post, hence my entire post and my attempt at a sort of disclaimer at the end of it.

The multiple partners thing was just a joke of sorts on my part, you could find more on the subject of Polyamory... which has been beaten to death with a very large, blunt tree trunk...

I'm for keeping "marriage", in the legal sense, to only two people, only because it's already fucked up to do taxes as it is... let's not bring any more trouble in our lives. And, yeah, the government aid thing. (But I don't think that's an issue for most polygamists. That would be a new topic, and it would be interesting, but check polyamory first.)

Kids can make you crazy... -er.... just watch out for what you want. If you really want a child, then it's in your mind, if your partner wants a child, same. If you talk about it, and really want that sort of thing "together", then it's great. Just understand the fantasy of the thing, and the reality are completely different.

Like when the "Gift" want's a Nintendo DS. The "Gift" needs school supplies. The "Gift" needs new clothes. The "Gift" needs braces. The "Gift" wants a Car. The "Gift" got accepted to college. The "Gift" is that you can't pay for that college or university... The previous owner of the "Gift" wants to get rid of you... so you must pay a "gift" to the "Gift" owner until he or she is eighteen years of age. And that "gift" to the "Gift" makes things really bad for you... and you're bled dry every month, and the "Gift" keeps asking for cash and clothes... and the "Gift's" handler moves on with a rich boyfriend or something, but you still pay the same damn thing every month out of your sucky ass pay... and you hate, and hate... and you want to kill, but you start drinking or doing meth... then you're broke all the time... get kicked out of your shitty apartment, lose your job, hate yourself, and you just want to die.


I think you might be onto something about the taxes when it comes to multiple partners. I hadn't even given that a thought, but you are correct, taxes are all ready a jumble mess, a bad "circle jerk", and that would only make things worse. Hmm, might have to think a bit more on that one.

As for your comment on children...I'm glad I don't feel that way! ;\) Yes, they make me crazy at times, but for the most part, I know I'm fortunate in that respect.


 Originally Posted By: daevid777
But you weren't talking about that Lamar... you were talking about LOVE. And that lasts FOREVER.

And THAT, my friend, is a beautiful thing.


And rare anymore. A favorite saying I have is, "The grass always looks greener on the other side, until you jump the fence and see it's the same damn grass, just now you're in a different field." We all have our flaws, we just have to decide what flaws of someone else's we can live with and most people don't know for sure until they're all ready there.

Lamar, here's to hoping you find what you're looking for...
_________________________
If only just for today.....

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#43722 - 10/20/10 03:00 PM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Lamar]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Dave… You’re still cool.

Nyte… Watch and learn. Don’t worry I like Dave as much as I can having never met or interacted with him anywhere but here. Without talking to him or asking directly I know Dave’s issue is with those who quote entire posts to add a few sentences to as a reply. This has been getting a bit crazy as of late. There is no reason to quote the entire post unless of course you’re picking it to death.

Lamar… Oh Lamar…

 Originally Posted By: Lamar
Well regardless, I meant that you did not have to have a church in order to have a wedding. Apologies.

Totally unnecessary to apologize, just slow down and reread things before you hit reply. If you are unsure about something don’t treat it like you know what your saying. A simple “I think this is the way it is” could save you trouble.

 Originally Posted By: Lamar
What I meant was you don't even need legality for a real marriage.

Well now that depends. Are you looking for all the perks that come with marriage like filing a joint tax return and having power of attorney over a sick or injured loved one? What else could you mean by legal marriage or the legality of marriage?

 Originally Posted By: Lamar
"Playing into the Christian value in the eye of God", I was referring to the view of Christian prejudice that says no two men or women can be married. Anyway, sorry for the mix up.

So this is really just a rant over gay marriage? Seriously…

*Floating a few inches above the ground* My Google-fu is superior to yours. So I will teach you something.

Since the search on most websites (this site included) sucks dirty balls you can use Google to search individual websites.

Simply type your question into Google and add site:www.the600club.com to the line. This would give you something that looked like this “gay marriage site:www.the600club.com” No quotation marks needed. Yes this can be used with any website.

I suggest you read a bit on what has come here before you then you can post better. You will find most of our thoughts on the issue and you may also find the answers to your questions before you ask them.

Class is dismissed.

Have fun and don’t forget to do your homework.

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#43732 - 10/21/10 11:49 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Lamar]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Simply put I think if the person is your best friend and you have the felling that you can't live without them than you need to marry them! I vowed to never get married and then met my wife who becaome my best friend and lover and haven't looked back. It is all up to you and your feelings and noone else's.
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Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#43737 - 10/22/10 02:49 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: manofsteel]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Good for you Manofsteel!

I agree with you. Best friends, and Great lovers... what else could you want?

Just remember you gotta protect each other... and that town... seems like a bad choice.

Maybe you grew up there, but is she really okay with it? That's another part of marriage some people don't agree with... compromise.

Maybe you two should talk. Especially if some random old dude can harrass your baby in public, without getting his false teeth knocked out by a passing stranger.

Are there no gentlemen?

(Love for you Ta2zz! You are insane!!!)

Daeve.
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#43759 - 10/22/10 08:53 PM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: daevid777]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: manofsteel
Simply put I think if the person is your best friend and you have the felling that you can't live without them than you need to marry them!

Why what is there to gain by saying I do? Are these your true feelings or do you only really feel like this because society taught you this is correct and proper.

 Originally Posted By: manofsteel
I vowed to never get married and then met my wife who becaome my best friend and lover and haven't looked back. It is all up to you and your feelings and noone else's.

More power to you and yours if this is something you two need. Not everyone needs the title or paperwork for a simple tax break. Not everyone needs to wear a slave ring to show you are owned, taken or spoken for. Me I have seen to many relationships go belly up once those papers were signed.

 Originally Posted By: Daevid777
That's another part of marriage some people don't agree with... compromise.

Only the ignorant Dave. And I extend your statement of compromise to include every relationship. To simply have a friend is to accept compromise, there is no other way.

 Originally Posted By: Captain bring down McPretentious-pants! Nice to meet you too!
(Love for you Ta2zz! You are insane!!!)

*sharpening my implements* That’s insane in a good way yes?

~T~

Why do we need marriage, what is the benifet either now or in the past that made marriage a necessity.
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#43763 - 10/23/10 12:11 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: ta2zz]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
I'll come back to this later; I only know about marriage and Civil Partnership laws as they apply in England and Wales. Here, Common Law marriage does not exist (contrary to popular belief). Therefore, if you want someone automatically and legally recognised as your next of kin you must either be married, if you and your partner are of different sexes, or Civilly Partnered if you are of the same sex.
If you remain single, your partner has no right to visit you in hospital, make your funeral arrangements, inherit your money and so on. As you can imagine, if your only surviving relative is, say, a brother you can't stick and haven't spoken to for 20 years and he inherits everything while your lover gets nothing AND he is likely to inflict a Christian funeral on you that possibility might not appeal while you're alive. So long as you remain unmarried, your parents are your next of kin, then any children. If your partner has jointly raised the child of a previous relationship with you they can be denied access to them. You would need to make very careful and precise legal arrangements with your partner, if that's what you both wanted.
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#43765 - 10/23/10 05:19 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: felixgarnet]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Yeah...

Not the happiest of posts there Felix...

I think just about everything you posted happened to me. Without going into it, I was glad to be able to "legally" make things happen, in the way it was "supposed to be"... or at least as "explaianed to me".

And... I'm an old skool romantic kinda guy.... I can be with someone for 10 years or so... it doesn't matter, the legal thing never really comes into play. I'm a gentleman... and when I love, I love. It's simple. All I expect in return is the same thing. Simple. My rules are: Don't fuck other guys. I won't fuck other women. We love each other with all our hearts. Easy.

Well, it's mostly easy... but when you're so smokin' hot like me... you get offers all the time, ya know. It takes fortitude! Endurance! Faithfulness!

My girl looks really good... I hope she has the fortitude, endurance, and faithfulness I have! Damn!

Damn! I gotta make a phone call! If only we were married!!!

Oh, no... I would so divorce her if she's doing what I think she's doing!

I hate her! I hate her! Slut!
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Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#43779 - 10/24/10 08:14 PM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: daevid777]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I've entertained the idea of marriage, but have never really seen it as necessary to be happy and fulfilled in life, or have a successful relationship. Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to have a different last name, or to get my close friends and family together for a ceremony. Maybe because I'm not a romantic person, but the whole thing just isn't my cup of tea. If I ever did get married, I don't want anyone to attend, and neither does my b/f. He'd rather we elope and never tell anyone so we wouldn't have to deal with that Mom Drama--moms getting all mopey-eyed and shit. *gag* I'd let everyone know by just updating my Facebook status, hehe. Neither of us like being the center of attention, especially for something as important as saying lifelong vows to each other. The fewer witnesses to our crying like babies the better.

Maybe I've got it too easy with my boyfriend right now. We've been together for 6 1/2 years, and have lived together for the past 2 1/2 years. We run a business together, have our dogs, it's like we're already married, minus the tax break ;\)
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Nothing is sacred.

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#43793 - 10/25/10 06:19 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Nemesis]
Mordred Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 25
This is a topic that has been at the front of my mind recently (and by recently I mean over the last three or four days). My apologies if this is a bit too much personal information, but I think it's necessary to make my point. Skip over it, if you please.

A few days ago I ended an almost month long open relationship with a woman I rather liked. Everything carnal was there, we had the freedom of an open relationship, we connected on a few things... so why?
I left her for someone else. A woman I met less than two weeks ago, but with whom I felt such a strong connection emotionally and intellectually, I couldn't stand idle and let her slip away. And I now know she felt the same way. And we still do, five days into our relationship.

Now, being a skeptic (by nature, I think), everything in my mind tells me to question this. Am I just being a silly eighteen year old? Just infatuated, and blind to the wisdom of others who say nothing this serious happens this fast?
I also recognize the power of ritual magic, which is by definition an emotional endeavor (and is often times a more powerful tool for me than reasoning through a problem). So with that in mind, and also knowing that I am happier now than I've been in years, I can accept this is real. I've been in (relatively) long relationships, and never felt so strongly, after months, or a year.

As a satanist, I completely reject the RHP concept and purpose for marriage. So I ask myself why, after only a few days, I can see myself married to this woman, and (albeit very briefly) considered getting married right now. As a statement of our love to each other? To other people? Yes, and yes.

But mostly, because I want us to be taken seriously. And that's the bottom line. There is an implication when someone speaks of their boyfriend/ girlfriend. And there is a completely different implication when speaking of one's husband/ wife. So chalk one up for social stigma. I'd rather call her my wife, than try and fight the scoffing for years to come.

The point is, I've chosen to return to the 600 club at a very strange time in my life. \:\)
_________________________
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - Hitchens

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#43795 - 10/25/10 11:53 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Mordred]
TheRealityofFake Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 6
 Originally Posted By: Mordred


Now, being a skeptic (by nature, I think), everything in my mind tells me to question this. Am I just being a silly eighteen year old? Just infatuated, and blind to the wisdom of others who say nothing this serious happens this fast?


i love infatuation and am ambivalent about love. infatuation is much easier for me to understand. anyways just do what feels right at the moment and even if later in life you realize it was a mistake, there's no use in regretting the mistake because you acted with the knowledge you had at the time and enjoyed it.

back to the main subject, I'm totally for same-sex marriage and I think its completely ridiculous that its banned just because of Christianity. Legal marriages don't require the bride and groom to both be Christians, so why is the law trying to force Christian ideas about sexuality on people who may or may not be Christians? it's silly

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#43796 - 10/25/10 01:04 PM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Mordred]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
It sounds to me like you have a good thing going so don't question it. I will, however, have to say that getting married so soon is not a bright idea. People change, feelings change and you don't want to marry her just to find out that she is not the person you thought she was. It is easier and cheaper to break up with someone than divorce them. And fuck what other people think about your relationship; they aren't the one who is in it.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#43797 - 10/25/10 01:06 PM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: TheRealityofFake]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
i love infatuation and am ambivalent about love.


So then you are ambivalent about infatuation?

 Quote:
back to the main subject, I'm totally for same-sex marriage


That was not the main subject. Read more closely next time.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#43804 - 10/25/10 06:39 PM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Mordred Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 25
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
It is easier and cheaper to break up with someone than divorce them. And fuck what other people think about your relationship; they aren't the one who is in it.


I appreciate your perspective on this, because it's down to earth, and I've been very up in the clouds, so to speak, recently. But I concur; fuck everyone else. At the same time, adherence to the stigma (out of convenience) is the only purpose I can find for marriage today. Perhaps I'll have more insight as the years pass, but for now it's the only purpose I can see.

If we reject the "being taken seriously" factor, then what is there? It's cheaper to buy flowers to say I love her than put together a wedding. So what?

The ignorance of youth, I suppose...?
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#43805 - 10/25/10 07:47 PM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Mordred]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
At the same time, adherence to the stigma (out of convenience) is the only purpose I can find for marriage today. Perhaps I'll have more insight as the years pass, but for now it's the only purpose I can see.


Well, there is also the income tax benefit. I'm sure there other perks as well but none that I can think of at the moment.

 Quote:
If we reject the "being taken seriously" factor, then what is there? It's cheaper to buy flowers to say I love her than put together a wedding. So what?


Actually, it is cheaper to just say "I love you". ;\)
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#43807 - 10/25/10 08:30 PM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Mordred]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Marriage is really pushed onto women. When you're a girl, you hear your mom and female relatives say, "Someday you're going to find a wonderful man and get married, then I'll have grand-babies!" Self-interest, much?

Seriously, every time I call my mom or talk to my grandma (on my dad's side), they ask me, "When are you and that boyfriend of yours gonna get married? Are you gonna wait until I'm 90?" (says my granny). Guys don't get that level of shit from their parents. The whole marriage fantasy is sold to girls when they're in their "princess" mode, so they're raised to believe that marriage is what naturally comes after you fall in love with a guy and are with him exclusively for X amount of years. A fantasy which they then project onto every hapless man who is in a relationship with them. Tapping her foot impatiently while asking, "So, you gonna marry me or what?" I just can't imagine myself giving that much of a shit, to demand that sort of drama and attention.

Maybe I'm a bit jaded on the whole thing. After experiencing the divorce of my parents (and having to split up visitation between them--mom M-F & dad on the weekends) when I was 7, and seeing my mom get re-married, then divorced, then re-married again...yeah, marriage seems like little more than a legal contract, with tax and next-of-kin benefits attached to sweeten the pot.
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#43808 - 10/25/10 08:49 PM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Nemesis]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Having just celebrated my 41st wedding anniversary, I've had a lot of experience with marriage and what it actually means in today's society. It boils down to a study in contract law.

The societal implications of the ritual of marriage are purely secondary in modern society, whereas in the past, there was a linking of powers at an elevated level, as in intermarriages by royal families. In families of far lesser means, it was always a case of chattel... ownership of property... amassing of wealth... with varying degrees of church control of the masses through an assumed influence on sexual access and control.

One does not NEED to marry to stay together in a familial group. There are literally millions of couples who spend long and meaningful lives together without once uttering a marriage vow or obtaining a license from the state or religious authority to do so. The problem arises when there are financial ties that need to be cemented within that group... comingling of funds works on a 50-50 level, but if one partner or the other is seen as contributing LESS, financially, there is inevitably a problem if the partnership dissolves. MARRIAGE provides for equitability and legal disposal of properties and monies in a divorce, or the legal and binding transfer of shared wealth into individual assets upon the death of one member of the partnership.

Still, some people manage to have civil divorces or dissolutions without a need for complex legal negotiations... but that's dependent upon the maturity and logic of those involved. Problems may still arise as a result of serious illness or death, since unmarried partners have little or not rights under the law in the case of cohabitation vs marriage.

Could my wife and I have made it 41 years WITHOUT marriage? Sure. But after 60+ years on earth and the amassing of a considerable financial portfolio, it would be a HELL of a mess to negotiate upon a partner's death, even with a good Will being in place.
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#43813 - 10/26/10 12:41 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Jake999]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
I'm with Jake on this one. I co-habitated with my oldest son's father for over 10 years and when we split, because the house was in his name (I was co-signer but because we weren't married it didn't mean shit in the eyes of the law), he had all legal rights to ALL of my stuff, even though 1/2 of the stuff in the house belonged to me through MY business (his name was no where on my business information). Not ONE attorney would take on the case because his name was on the house. In turn, because he had become such an ass through our split-up, he sold all my business belongings, gave away my son’s clothes, and mine, and disposed of my personal belongings without the bat of an eye. Yeah, he was a royal dickhead in the end and to this day, still hasn't managed to resolve things with his own son. The only thing he could even talk to him about after not seeing his son for almost 10 years was about if anyone even told my oldest about his grandmother dying (yes, he's gotten progressively fucked up in the head!). I however learned a very valuable lesson about the differences between co-habitation and marriage.

I don't believe anyone HAS to marry, but there are better reasons than just taxes and the occasional benefit should something happen to your significant other. If I had not married my other half, his children from his first marriage could easily walk in and take everything we have accumulated over the last 10+ years if something were to happen to him. They could make legal medical decisions and I wouldn't have one word to say about it. Hell, they could even delegate where he would have to be buried, if it ever came to that, were we not married. It's not just about a tax write off, but making sure that any financial decisions you have made with your other half are secure, that your properties are secure with each other, that even your children can't be just taken away (my ex tried to get his family to do that to me with our son purely for revenge, although it didn't hold up). No one else can just "step in" if something were to happen. There are many, MANY reasons for marriage, far beyond the obvious. It's about making sure the love of your life has all legal means (the marriage contract does provide for 90 to 95%) to take care of everything else, including the medical and financial needs for themselves, for you as well as your children should you have any together. Wills can be contested, but a marriage license can't, so long as there's not another spouse that turns up! : )
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#43814 - 10/26/10 01:05 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Nyte]
RollinStalker Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 41
Loc: san francisco ,Ca
I think the whole concept of two people being in complete love and bound for each other for eternity is what marriage is all about! Sure the ritual is the exclamation mark but it doesn't change the fact that these two wan to be together forever, right?
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#43815 - 10/26/10 02:04 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: RollinStalker]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Yeah, RollingStalker (maybe a bad name choice around here!), I can agree with that.

I also can agree with Jake, damn you make it sound so romantic! And Nyte (Ditto!)

My parents knew each other for a very few months... and they're coming up on their 50th wedding anniversary. Maybe it's like the joke in Woody Allen's "Love and Death"... "They feel as strongly about each other today as they did back then."

I guess it's not for everyone. And it doesn't have to be. I'm a bit taken with the "Romantic" notion of being married... if there are tax breaks, extra money stuff, that's great.

The "Power of Attorney" thing is also very valuable, trust me.

Marrying for money, or social standards, or familial ties, matchmakers, etc.... I really could never do... for long. The money thing would only be tempting for a few... years or so.

I like to have a good time, I enjoy being in love, having someone to talk with, someone kind, but truthful, a confidant, a lover, someone's company I enjoy consistently, with whom I can discover new things, enjoy new experiences, someone who gets my jokes, and vice versa. And maybe throw in some smokin' hot sex... (that's always a big time bonus)

I'm all set... For life, I think.

I'll take the tax credits, and the responsibilities... and if there is a divorce... I just want my books and my cat. A car would be nice too.

As for the romantic of the week up there in the posts... Mordred is your "name"... give it a little more time. I'm rooting for your young love thing, and "screw the world"... but you really do have to think a lot about what has been written here. I think it's wonderful how you feel, and you bringing it here... to one of the most jaded corners of the internet! (sorry people), well, ya got balls! And I respect that too.

Give it eight months at the very least... she'll understand. Then maybe get engaged... then she'll be your fiance', not "just" a girlfriend, and that can be very nice too. Just don't rush into anything... you don't want to end up hating each other. Or having a child, but that's another story...

Just know my opinion is only my own, and I claim no responsibility whatsoever how you may or may not use this information! I'm just a hippy guy anyway.

Daeve.


Edited by daevid777 (10/26/10 02:05 AM)
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#43827 - 10/26/10 09:30 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Lamar]
Fnord Offline
senior member


Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Lamar
To be "legally" married (which is irrelevant) it seems one would have to play into the Christian union of man and woman in the eye of God.


I like your choice of the word "play" because it directly applies to the reason I consented to a church wedding. For me, it was farce, and something done to make our collective families happy. Certainly it's not 'needed' and all of your your other thoughts represent valid (and true) reasons to partner with someone.

22 years later I'm not still married because I consented to a church wedding. I'm still married because I still love my girl... the wedding is a distant memory.

Just a quick thought, Jake and Nyte summed up the legal aspects quite eloquently, so I won't bother to add anything additional with respect to those issues.
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#43954 - 11/01/10 07:15 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Lamar]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
Marriage, throwing all possible legal and socio-political issues aside, is still a choice between 2 people.
I see marriage as a certain formal approval of a bound between two people. Just a bit as a handshake or hug you give to person you respect as a "thank you" or approval or dedication for that matter. Or to compare it to the military: the moment you sign the letter that you are dedicating and trusting your body and mind in the (hopefully) capable hands of a given officer.

Marriage, to me, is something which shouldn't be viewed from the perspective of money or other "gain". I find it to be viewed as an agreement wherein 2 persons formally accept they will maintain each other in both good and bad times and agree to keep an eye on each other. Words such as trust, dedication and responsability spring to mind. I wouldn't be bothered by having a Satanic wedding, a Christian wedding, a handfasting,.. .
The one thing that matters within my mind is the idea that I'm showing a very thorough trust in that particular women and am showing her (or other people present during the marriage) am wilfull enough to dedicate a part of my life to her in hopes she is thinking the same and is also wilfull and certain/trustworthy enough in me to do so.

I know people will come up with "yeah, but thats also possible without getting married". Thats true, but I prefer deeds above words. And being a man with quite a strict code of honour on morals, love and sex; I see marriage as something to be honourable which only gets more valuable as time passes.
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#44233 - 11/19/10 08:13 AM Re: On the Concept of Marriage [Re: Dimitri]
Dutch Satanist Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 69
Loc: Delft, The Netherlands
Now, this is a subject I could sink my teeth in, because I am married, and happily so.

As a concept, marriage doesn't mean much more than any serious relationship does. I did get married with my partner for a couple of reasons:

- I love her (not unimportant).
- We get along together well enough to cohabitate (although it's not even mandatory).
- It is beneficial to both of us financially. It also has some social benefits.
- It's another excuse to throw a party every year \:\)

I further concur with what Dimitri says. To my wife and myself the marital status is not that important though. The promises made during the ceremony are more important, however. It's a contract between two people and it's not to be taken lightly.

Sure, we could have decided to do a registered partnership, but the problem with that is that it's not recognized globally. And I would like to be able to take my wife along if I ever have to move abroad for work.
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