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#46872 - 01/16/11 12:37 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
If you crave beef but don't want to eat the animal version, try Gardein, which is the best-tasting fake beef I've encountered yet. I recommend the "Burgundy Trio" for a start.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#46878 - 01/16/11 06:43 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Zach Black Offline
lurker


Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 3
Loc: San Diego , California USA
I have worked as a sushi chef. Edamamie(soy bean) is also an alternative to meat.





One line posts are frowned upon here. Please expand on your posts as well as reading the rules and regulations. Morgan


Edited by Morgan (01/16/11 05:04 PM)
Edit Reason: informed of rules
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SIN-cerely

Zach Black

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#52365 - 04/07/11 10:22 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Liadan Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 10
Loc: Netherlands
Wow that story is so familiar to me! I went vegetarian when I was 10, then turned vegan at 15. I've been vegan for 3 years, the first year went very well, but later I started to feel depressed and exhausted all the time.
About a year ago I started eating eggs again and recently I also started eating fish and I feel so much healthier. I still find it very hard to try other sorts of meat again, bu maybe one day I will try chicken or beef, it's just still a little weird to eat animal products again.

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#52527 - 04/08/11 10:03 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
mightisright Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 24
If people truly enjoy eating only vegetable and other non-meat products, then shouldn't they continue?
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#52528 - 04/08/11 10:04 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
mightisright Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 24
I tried it. Thanks SO much for the recommendation, it's amazing!!
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#52530 - 04/08/11 10:39 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: mightisright]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Only when they push their propaganda to portray our species' natural omnivorous proclivities and dietary needs in a bad light. Don't think they do that sort of thing? Don't think numerous studies are funded by vegetarians or researchers who are biased against meat in some way (Global warming is a big one). Who do you think conducted The China Study? A pro-vegetarian. Who do you think conducts dietary studies on a vegetarian diet? The vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists. Of course they're going to find all sorts of glowing results from their studies because they conveniently ignore any data which does not correlate with their bias.

http://letthemeatmeat.com/post/698054451/interview-with-an-ex-adventist-sondra

They pull numbers and statistics out of their asses, and it turns into a game of telephone. Each time they're repeated, the amount of water it takes to raise a cow from birth to slaughter increases. Or how much % of grain is used for livestock (never mind that it's the inedible kind which is not fit for human consumption in the first place). Or how much gas is used in livestock/meat transport. When you get a hold of a list of these sorts of overblown statistics and put them up on a webpage that attracts thousands of viewers, word spreads, facts become even more convoluted and sources are unreliable. Yet, it gives veggie virgins and veg-curious people the motivation they think they need to stop eating meat. They go on to preach about how great they feel and a few years later, you see them quietly including animal products to their diet. A piece of fish here, maybe a little bit of grilled chicken breast. Why? Failure to thrive.

I'm sure you've heard of the "Red meat gives you cancer" study?

And yet you have a relative handful of individuals who enjoy having to juggle their nutritional needs with their ethical choices, and seem to do alright eating beans, grains & produce. Either way, it's not natural. Having to make sure you get the right amount of amino acids by portioning out your legumes & brown rice instead of just eating a turkey leg is ridiculous. As if our evolutionary predecessors needed to do those things in order to hunt, fuck and breed and evolve to dominate the planet.

Being a vegetarian is very different from being a vegetarian advocate. Aquino is a vegetarian, but he doesn't go pushing it onto others as the "correct" way or even the "natural" way (at least from what I've read). It's a personal choice for him, not one that he's decided to make for all of mankind and that everyone should follow him to Cain's veggie patch.
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#52551 - 04/09/11 07:30 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I'm not vegetarian only because of laziness, in this I mean that I am a bodybuilder and to get all the necessary amino acids in balance I'd have to measure out all the different beans and vegetables in proportion and I am just the kind of guy who eats 5 meals a day with one portion of meat, fish or poultry with a helping of fruit or vegetables so I average 25 grams of protein and varying moderate carbohydrates each meal with no fats except these horrible omega 3 capsules

It would be more difficult for me to workout how to synthesise the different balances of amino acids in incomplete sources and as meats are complete I eat those out of necessity.

I suppose dairy products are fine for vegetarians? as are whey protein shakes. I have these foods too but I find meat and tuna to be quick to prepare with a salad. I guess I'm just lazy as I have to make 5 meals a day. I can't eat too much cheese and protein shakes or I get bloated see. Meats and tuna seem to be condensed sources of protein compared to eating a mix of two sources to synthesise the amino's.

I don't have much money really and I buy a lot of steak and shed loads of tuna to go with grains and dairy products and vegetables and fruit. I know the importance of reading food labels properly but to mix and match amino acids is all too much for me, I go for complete sources.

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#52556 - 04/09/11 11:31 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Mister Cage Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
the best-tasting fake beef I've encountered yet.


Good afternoon Dr. Aquino. Is your diet strictly vegan or do you prefer a lesser demanding vegetarian diet?

Is this something you chose to adopt or was it a physicians suggestion?

Are vegetarians permitted to eat animal crackers? Lol!

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#52997 - 04/15/11 02:37 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
Well as about vegetarianism.. I can comprehend certain people to make that choice (in certain Middle-Eastern countries and the Mediterranean part of the world) because it is the only food directly available to them. People can survive and live their life on vegetables and fruits only. As can people who only eat meat and/or other animal-based products (cfr Inuits (generally spoken)).

I simply shrug my shoulders when people in the Western world choose to be vegetarian or carnivorous. I don't really care, admitted I prefer vegetarians who don't preach their eating habits to others. But somewhere I find it wrong to make that choice. We live in a part of the world where both meat and plants are easy available. From the point of health-care I'd say it is quite egoistical and downright stupid to make that choice. A human body is built to be an omnivore thus giving the slight hint that the bodily functions will be at their maximum when a diet of animal-based products and plants is being given.

But to each their own as they say.

For Hegesias and others who do power-training:
As for power-training I agree that you need you amino acids and that meat will provide these. But from experience I learned that before running a marathon or doing other heavy exercises for competition eat a few pieces of fruit or salads or other vegetables have helped increase my endurance. This in the sense of having more energy spread on a wider time-scale. Eating meat is good enough for the muscle/strength building, vegetables for the energy bursts. It's because of certain nutritive components being build into hard to digest parts of the plants. They slowly get digested and providing energy on the long term.

From time to time eating a vegetarian meal is advised when doing competitions.


Edited by Dimitri (04/15/11 02:45 PM)
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#54699 - 05/19/11 09:58 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Jake999]
Crystal9Maat Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 6
Loc: South Carolina, USA
Let me add my two cents in here, especially since I have been a dietary vegan for a while now. There are some people who are better suited for this diet, yet it IS not for everyone. There are some that take it a step further than they should, just like in exercise regimens. It's a matter of using common sense and moderation in your diet plan, and in knowing what is right for your own individual plan for being healthy.

A few people I have noticed are quite unaware of basic information on health issues, and in choosing to be uninformed run the risk of opening themselves up to illnesses that could easily be avoided. For example, if a person has heard by word of mouth that a certain greasy spoon is unsanitary, yet still continues to dine there, who's fault is it? Such with eating meats or NOT eating meats. When I shopped for meat products for my own personal consumption, I made sure to read up on the local farmers market and check in with those who have livestock, and see how things were going before investing my money.
This is not difficult to do, it just takes time and effort. If you have a family, which I do - you take the time to find these things out for not just your benefit but for theirs as well.
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#55260 - 05/31/11 12:21 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Crystal9Maat]
Pizgatti Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 33
""Cows, calves, pigs, chickens, turkeys, ducks, geese, and other animals live in extremely stressful conditions:

* Kept in small cages or jam-packed sheds or on filthy feedlots, often with so little space that they can't even turn around or lie down comfortably
* Deprived of exercise so that all their bodies' energy goes toward producing flesh, eggs, or milk for human consumption
* Fed drugs to fatten them faster and keep them alive in conditions that could otherwise kill them
* Genetically altered to grow faster or to produce much more milk or eggs than they naturally would (many animals become crippled under their own weight and die just inches away from water and food)

When they have finally grown large enough, animals raised for food are crowded onto trucks and transported over many miles through all weather extremes, typically without food or water, to the slaughterhouse. Those who survive this nightmarish journey will have their throats slit, often while they are still conscious. Many remain conscious when they are plunged into the scalding-hot water of the defeathering or hair-removal tanks or while their bodies are being skinned or hacked apart. ""

Oh yeah, give me some of that meat! Wooooh! Oh yeah!

""Livestock feed uses 5 times more grain to produce a meal than eating it directly. "There can be no question that more hunger can be alleviated with a given quantity of grain by completely eliminating animals [from the food production process]. About 2,000 pounds of concentrates [grains] must be supplied to livestock in order to produce enough meat and other livestock products to support a person for a year, whereas 400 pounds of grain (corn, wheat, rice, soybeans, etc.) eaten directly will support a person for a year. Thus, a given quantity of grain eaten directly will feed 5 times as many people as it will if it is first fed to livestock and then is eaten indirectly by humans in the form of livestock products...."

from M. E. Ensminger, Ph.D., internationally recognized animal agriculture specialist, former Department of Animal Science Chairman at Washington State University, currently President of Consultants-Agriservices, Clovis, California

-- OUT TO PASTURE. If all the U.S. grain now fed to livestock were exported and if cattlemen switched to grass-fed production systems, less beef would be available and animal protein in the average American diet would drop from 75 grams to 29 grams per day. That, plus current levels of plant-protein consumption, would still yield more than the RDA for protein.

Animal agriculture is a leading consumer of water resources in the United States, Pimentel noted. Grain-fed beef production takes 100,000 liters of water for every kilogram of food. Raising broiler chickens takes 3,500 liters of water to make a kilogram of meat. In comparison, soybean production uses 2,000 liters for kilogram of food produced; rice, 1,912; wheat, 900; and potatoes, 500 liters. "Water shortages already are severe in the Western and Southern United States and the situation is quickly becoming worse because of a rapidly growing U.S. population that requires more water for all of its needs, especially agriculture," Pimentel observed. ""


Yeah, great industry there. Not to mention most people can handle vegan diets just fine.

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#55266 - 05/31/11 03:09 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
MattVanSickle84 Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 42
Loc: London, UK
Because there are so many posts here, I'm responding generally. Apologies in advance if I tread on anybody's arguments.

---

I was raised a raging carnivore (actually omnivore, if we want to be serious about this) but when I was younger I went through a vegetarian phase and it lasted for about four years. These days I probably eat more meat to make up for time misspent! My wife is a vegetarian so I'll be careful what I say on here lest she read it!

The thing that sparked the desire to undertake the vegetarian diet was well-intentioned and, I like to think, not reactionary or hysterical. I have always been an animal lover, I'm quite confident that a large number of meat eaters are, and I would not deny my own empathy for the suffering of sentient beings. I'm a Satanist not a psychopath. I would always give "ethical reasons" for my vegetarianism.

But there came an inevitable point where I had to acknowledge that I am as much an animal as any other species, despite the capacity for empathy, compassion etc. Our ancestors were almost certainly omnivorous and so our bodies are almost certainly adapted to do the same as they did.

I have heard arguments that our teeth are not similar to those of other carnivores (which we are not, and which is why we quickly learned to develop and use stone tools in cutting flesh) and that we do not share the desire to tuck in to fresh carrion, which is probably true due to years of very wise conditioning to expect meat to be appropriately cooked and easily accessible/manageable.

I'm not sure whether Mr Ted Nugent would agree with these recent trends in human behaviour and just consider the various "Roadkill Restaurants" in the States for further arguments against that second point.

One of the things that has convinced me that I have made the right decision to go back to meat eating, but should provide pause for thought, is the following argument. The other is: Morrissey (seriously).

The animal rights philosopher Peter Singer has some interesting ideas about eating meat which are not of Morrissey's "we were put here to protect the animals" variety. Singer makes the point that if we are just animals like the rest (which we are) why is cannibalism abhorrent in (most) societies. He employs this argument so as to persuade us that we should reconsider killing and eating animals.

Now, I'm not Jeffrey Dahmer, but you could just as easily flip it the other way and say that this simply weakens the arguments against eating humans. That it's just a cultural taboo, which it clearly is. To some. This is obviously controversial and I stress that I am not fond of masticating my fellow man (I choose my words carefully here!) but it's an argument worth considering and taking seriously.

It's also worth mentioning that I haven't much meat on me and I'm unhealthy! And I have a lot of gristle. Honestly...


If you respect nature and you respect the natural processes that created you, you should not be against humans eating meat. You may choose another path but you may not condemn.
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The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n.

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#55267 - 05/31/11 03:27 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: MattVanSickle84]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: MattVanSickle84
The animal rights philosopher Peter Singer has some interesting ideas about eating meat which are not of Morrissey's "we were put here to protect the animals" variety. Singer makes the point that if we are just animals like the rest (which we are) why is cannibalism abhorrent in (most) societies. He employs this argument so as to persuade us that we should reconsider killing and eating animals.


One can ask how common cannibalism in nature is. Sure there are examples but I can't think of many mammals that put their own on the menu unless there is scarcity. I consider that argument as one of emotional appeal and not really having much substance beyond that. Which is about the running theme in the meat-debate.

D.

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#55271 - 05/31/11 03:50 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
MattVanSickle84 Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 42
Loc: London, UK
You should definitely, in considering this argument, ask whether cannibalism is common in nature.

The answer is yes, extremely common and it has nothing to do with scarcity because that would suggest a taboo amongst animals, against it. Many animals engage in cannibalism often and without restraint. Taboos, as far as I know exist exclusively among Humans and possibly in our closest primate relatives. Possibly.

Now I disagree with Singer's motives for employing this argument, which I agree are appealing to emotion and not to reason. To feelings and not thoughts. Nothing wrong with feelings and emotions by the way, obviously, just not helpful in argument as you point out.

I still think it's a serious question, and there are obviously going to be a huge number of arguments against cannibalism out there. A huge number. But they can't be taken seriously if they even remotely suggest that it isn't natural because it very much is natural. We just choose not to do it for what seem to be cultural reasons.

I'm not advocating breaking this taboo and I'm as far away from a relativist as it's humanly possibly to be, but if the most animalistic amongst us cannot face it who can? It's a tough one. No simple answers.
_________________________

The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n.

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#55278 - 05/31/11 05:18 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: MattVanSickle84]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Since you're (re)stating the argument, I'll be a lazy fuck right now and just ask for examples of mammals eating their own species when food is not scarce.

Personally I doubt it if not only because I just can't imagine any animals besides the typical ones; spider, praying mantis...etc. My knowledge on mammalian cannibalism might not be up to date mind you.

So humor me and maybe surprise at least one of us.

D.

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