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#55286 - 05/31/11 06:07 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
MattVanSickle84 Offline
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Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 42
Loc: London, UK
Well, it is most common in insects but also has been observed in Squirrels, Chimpanzees, Cats, Elephants, Dogs, Baboons, Bears, Lions, Leopards, Pigs and many different types of fish.

I'm not remotely an expert either but one of the instances where it is most common is Humans where it is definitely not always through scarcity, it is often a tribal, cultural custom and numerous other reasons.

* I'm getting most of the above list from Wikipedia which may immediately arouse suspicion. "A ha! Now he's out of the discussion!" But it is a more reliable source than some people make out and it is very good on scientific matters. The sources are all on there anyway as is the article history etc. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

But even if it wasn't prevalent among other animals and was entirely unique to Humans, I don''t think this would diminish the argument against it one iota, it would in fact strengthen it. Since then it would then be a behaviour which is unique to our species and thus even more difficult to argue against.

It would then be the case that the very things that make us exceptional as Human: cognition, culture, introspection, free will (or the illusion of) over instinct, technology etc. would also include cannibalism as another unique feature. That's clearly not the case.
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#55289 - 05/31/11 06:36 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: MattVanSickle84]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think what you are talking about is infanticide and eventually the eating of those. Most of these happen under conditions, like when a new lion alpha kills the cubs of the previous one. If you'd check what is mentioned, you'd find out that most of what is considered cannibalism belongs to that behavior. In that, Singer's arguments still has no foundation since he acts as if it is completely normal for other animals to eat each other which is simply not true.

D.

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#55303 - 05/31/11 08:59 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
My sister's dog, I watched her eat her own deformed puppy right after she gave birth to it.
Thus, at least dogs will eat their own.

I had a mouse that was feeder food for my snakes/lizards. It killed and ripped the head off of another mouse.

That's just my experience so far.

I always thought animals ate their own if they were damaged at birth.

In the past different cultures ate their enemies who they defeated in wars. They thought they took into themselves something of the dead guy. I don't remember if it was their spirit, soul, or physical attributes.

I am quite sure that if necessary the bar-be-que sauce will come in mighty handy if its a matter of personal survival.

M
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#55304 - 05/31/11 09:18 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Morgan]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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It is conditional indeed; population control, removing opponents offspring, injured or deformed newborns, food scarcity. Almost always it is related to offspring. Sure that can be called cannibalism too but it's not quite the same which their argument hints at. The way they bring the argument, it's as if adult elephants eat an elephant burger twice a week.

That's the problem in this debate; they can't but play at our emotions because there is no rational argument why we shouldn't eat meat.

D.

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#55305 - 05/31/11 09:30 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Morgan]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
The bitch eats the pup because she knows it's stillbirth, or going to die. She can eat all of the pups if under enough stress or if the animal is disturbed by humans, this is to preserve her for making more in a suitable environment.

It can happen to the best of breeds. It's best to intervene (if necessary) in short inspections only when the bitch goes to urinate outside, and not to touch the puppies overtly and never bathe them close to newborn. If you bathe them before 8 weeks she may reject them because of the scent change.

Just my experience, so I'd not say this is absolute fact. My sisters are trained as veterinarian assistants but I'm not.


I just thought I'd add this considering I eat meat every day, and still love my dogs. Hmm, do extreme vegetarian sects generally feel dogs are immoral for eating meat and limit them to dry food?
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#55311 - 06/01/11 12:29 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Hegesias]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
This puppy was deformed. It was extra long with 2 head, one on each end. There was no way it could survive outside the womb.
It was really sad, because it wasn't exactly dead going into her mouth.

"That's the problem in this debate; they can't but play at our emotions because there is no rational argument why we shouldn't eat meat."

Exactly.

M
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#55313 - 06/01/11 04:29 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Morgan]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Not read all there is here. but have 2 cents worth of bullshit relating to veganism.

The ethical rationale of veganism I feel is extremism and irrational. If you are sincere about not wanting to eat animals out of compassion born of also being an animal yourself, it's no rationalization to not eat eggs and dairy (and honey) - eggs and dairy supply a full compliment of proteins so difficult to get if you adhere to a strict vegan diet as well.

That said, people are diverse and there are exceptional individuals that can thrive on a Vegan diet, but that diversity is such that many people CANNOT thrive on a Vegan diet. I live in a town with many sickly looking Vegans.

There is anecdotal evidence that a vegan diet can help cure cancer, and because the explanation seems to make sense to me (vegan proteins being so hard to digest and the body getting protein before the cancer does - it may starve the cancer of nutrition - like a dietary 'chemo') - I can't and won't fault people with cancer that attempt to forward a cure with a Vegan diet.

That said I will cook vegan food on occasion, I have friends that are allergic to eggs and many great vegetarian dishes require no dairy or eggs. But that I make a delicious vegan dish doesn't mean I don't wash it down with a nice tall glass of milk.

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#58399 - 08/21/11 05:30 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Jake999]
Clow Abhorred Offline
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Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 13
i am a vegan. and personally, i am not against eating meat. i am against the way people consume meat. it's in human nature to HUNT the animal and to feed from it. but it just seems twisted to me that i can go to a shop and buy meat in a box. i don't eat meat because i am too lazy to hunt it myself. and another thing: i don't care if someone wants to hunt an animal. it's his business. i am totally against animals are locked and suffering for what so the everyday man will go to the supermarket and buy meat on 9.99? it's so twisted those animals suffer for nothing but pleasing the "HOMO SAPIENS".
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#58400 - 08/21/11 05:38 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Clow Abhorred Offline
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Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 13
and also. most people would NEVER eat a cat or a dog or a horese (although some cultures do). most people eat cow's meat, chicken. fishes etc. and you know why? because it's the norma. everybody eats that so you do too.

i have two cats and they are the most important living in my life. i would never eat a cat or even a dog so why would i eat a chicken or a cow? because everybody eats that so it's okay. right?

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#58402 - 08/21/11 09:40 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
People eat cats, dogs, horses, and mules. In fact last night I saw a show called Top Gear where they bought mule meat in Nevada? and ate some of it.

I have a recipe for baked cat. Its in an actual medieval cookbook I have someplace in my library. The far east has different views on pets than most Americans so dog and cat on the menu is pretty common.

People eat what they like. What they enjoy the taste and texture of. I love the taste of a nice steak. I like the taste of chicken but hate cooking it.

I would imagine that vegetarians taste different than meat eaters. Humans will eat humans if that is cultural norm or the only available source of food in emergency situations.

In the end, it all comes down to personal choice and health issues. Eat what makes you happy, and works for your own body.

Oh, and Clow Abhorred, please use correct sentence structure and grammar. That matters when trying to convey your point on this site.

Morgan
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#58415 - 08/21/11 01:39 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Morgan]
Clow Abhorred Offline
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Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 13
i disagree with the sentence "eat what makes you happy". it's a very selfish ignorant point of view. there is so much beyond what makes the person happy. men can't take control on other living creature's life, they do though, and it's disgusting. in my opinion.

and it's true it's all cultural thing (i also mentioned it on my previous comment). and it's not like i'm effected by the American's point of view that eating dogs, cats, horses, etc. is immoral. Animals should be eaten at all. again, in my point of view. even if i eats vegan food, and it damages my health, i will never consider to eat meat.

and about the grammar, i am sorry about that. English is not my mother's language. i hope you'll forgive me.

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#58416 - 08/21/11 01:51 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3790
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Clow Abhorred
i disagree with the sentence "eat what makes you happy". it's a very selfish ignorant point of view. there is so much beyond what makes the person happy. men can't take control on other living creature's life, they do though, and it's disgusting. in my opinion.

and it's true it's all cultural thing (i also mentioned it on my previous comment). and it's not like i'm effected by the American's point of view that eating dogs, cats, horses, etc. is immoral. Animals should be eaten at all. again, in my point of view. even if i eats vegan food, and it damages my health, i will never consider to eat meat.

and about the grammar, i am sorry about that. English is not my mother's language. i hope you'll forgive me.


What a white knight, someone pass this guy a fresh good guy badge from the box.

Are you aware if animals stopped eating other animals, the entire world would go extinct within a few months? This sort of special pleading based on RHP morality makes me laugh.
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#58417 - 08/21/11 01:55 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Last week I encountered this fox feasting on a rabbit. I told him; you bad bad fox, you shouldn't be eating that poor rabbit. You're all brothers and sisters and if you'd only respect that and change your ways, the world would be a so much better place.

Last night he got shot for stealing carrots.

D.

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#58418 - 08/21/11 03:01 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
LMFAO!

That reminds me of the first half of Disgustipated by Tool.

 Originally Posted By: Maynard James Keenan

And the angel of the Lord came unto me,
snatching me up from my
place of slumber,
and took me on high,
and higher still until we
moved in the spaces betwixt the air itself.
and he bore me unto a
vast farmland of our own midwest,
and as we descended cries of
impending doom rose from the soil.
one thousand, nay, a million
voices full of fear.
and terror possessed me then.
and I begged,

"Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"
And the angel said unto me,
"These are the cries of the carrots,
the cries of the carrots.
You see, reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day
and to them it is the holocaust."
And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat
like the tears of one millions terrified brothers
and roared,
"Hear me now,
I have seen the light,
they have a consciousness,
they have a life,
they have a soul.
damn you!
let the rabbits wear glasses,
save our brothers...can I get an amen?
can I get a hallelujah? thank you, Jesus.

life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on...
this is necessary


Edit: Also, Clow, you are an idiot. Especially for going on to a Satanism forum and speaking of selfishness as if it were a bad thing.


Edited by 6Satan6Archist6 (08/21/11 03:03 PM)
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#58423 - 08/21/11 04:43 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
First read the TSB, where LaVey told in his great style some good jokes about RHP abstinence from some food or eating very special food... and second - learn from real life!

Vegan's life style isn't natural and only some good things, which I see in Vegans are following - they support doctors because of their heals problems caused by malnutrition and die young and give space for others, who aren't so much brainwashed...

One of my university professors was vegan and he died during one year, because his wife found veganism stupidity and secretly with vegan’s food gave him enough proteins… He divorced from her and started to feed themselves after best vegans dogmas and could not survive in our north clime even a year…!
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