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#58425 - 08/21/11 05:32 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Clow Abhorred Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 13
 Quote:
What a white knight, someone pass this guy a fresh good guy badge from the box.

Are you aware if animals stopped eating other animals, the entire world would go extinct within a few months? This sort of special pleading based on RHP morality makes me laugh.


i already said i am not against killing animals in their own natural environment. only against consuming their meat in stores. your ignorant point of view is pathetic and disappointing. and if i'd agree with RHP i wouldn't have been here, believe me. not that i need to justify to you. you're just another ignorant creature of society.

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#58426 - 08/21/11 06:23 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Tell me, what is the natural environment of the current cow, or pig or chicken?

You prefer we all arm ourselves and go to the woods shoot our game? How long would it take before those woods would be empty?

Or should we all quit eating meat and become vegans? How many animals are you willing to sacrifice each year to provide us the required vegetables? Because that would actually cost more animals than continuing as we do today.

D.

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#58461 - 08/22/11 06:31 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
Clow Abhorred Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 13
I am not a big expert on what the natural environment of the cow, pig or chicken is. but i DO know it is NOT in cages. Did you know that chickens have their beaks and nails cut off? This is absolutely unnatural. and the pigs - teeth are uprooted so they won't eat each other. Regardless that the two live in small confided cages. I don't know much about their natural environment, but I do know that it is not that.

What you are saying is completely incorrect, and I could tell you why, but it such a long and philosophical subject. Shortly - Humans are responsible for the increase of cattle population. Humans are also responsible for a massive pollution caused due to that. That accumulates to a much higher cost.
We grow are own vegetables, so I really don't see any danger of sacrificing animals to provide ourselves with vegetables.

if you really want to know more about the subject - please watch the movie "Earthlings" (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142).


And also I'd like to comment about LHP and RHP morality. I consider myself as a LHP ideologist. I do believe in individualism, self-control morality. I think all gods are creations of humans, therefore i do not believe in god/gods or any outer idea. I do believe the Prince Of Darkness is an archetype to the principle of self consciousness and I do perform rituals and learning about black magic. And no, I do not have RHP moralities and I don't even understand where did you get that idea, maybe lack of self expression in English did the work.

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#58462 - 08/22/11 07:48 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Typical vegan: Thinks everyone involved in a debate is completely ignorant of how slaughterhouses operate and think a couple of videos will "change our minds" about eating meat.

The modern breeds of cow (Holstein, dairy, angus, etc)do not exist in nature, they were specifically bred for their various traits to satisfy human needs. The closest relation is the buffalo. Releasing them into the wild would be like just letting your pet Labrador retriever loose in the woods. He'd be confused, hungry, and most likely suffer from the elements if unable to find a human settlement to scrounge from. He'd figure it out eventually, but it certainly wouldn't be a pleasant experience for an animal used to having its needs met by humans.

Same with chickens, they were originally bred from the Red Ground Fowl but the chicken as we know it does not exist in the wild. We have bred the smarts right out of them, making chickens some of the dumbest creatures on earth.

I've said before--veganism isn't doing a damned thing to change the way animals are slaughtered. Not consuming a product, when there is already a high demand for it, has zero effect. Meat-eating omnivores are some of the most vocal in pushing for better conditions for animals, when all of the PETA card-carrying members can do is dress up like furries and cover hot chicks in fake blood and put them in a plastic-wrapped styrofoam tray on the sidewalk.

Want to see how chickens are slaughtered at family farms? You couldn't ask for a more humane treatment:

How to slaughter a chicken at Zenger Farm, Portland OR

Same with a cow. Does it look stressed or terrified to you?

Cow slaughter in UK

Or at one of the largest meat processing plants in the US, Cargill:

Lisa Ling at Cargill

We want to be supporting these sorts of farms and slaughterhouses because they're doing it right. Not the ones who drag half-dead animals around the mud with a forklift, cauterize the tails of piglets without anesthesia, or let dead chickens lie next to healthy ones in battery cages.

Like places such as this Iowa pig slaughterhouse, found abusing their pigs and is currently under investigation. They supply big chains such as Costco and the brand Smithfield, and until this is cleared up I will buy my pork elsewhere.
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#58463 - 08/22/11 09:14 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Common sense. I hear a lot of people saying that "Killing an animal for its meat is ok as long as you kill it in its natural habitat." Are they INSANE? Now, if you live in an area where 20 people live, and those 20 people go out on the open range and find 20 cows to kill, that might be remotely possible, although probably not very efficient.

Where are these populations going to find sufficient quantities in their natural habitat? (randomly chosen... there are larger)

Moscow: 11, 551, 930
Mexico City: 8,873,017
New York City: 8,175, 133
London: 7,753,600
Riyadh: 5,188,286

The list goes on and on and on. Without efficient, well planned and large processing centers to deliver meats and produce to the world's population centers, malnutrition and starvation becomes a fact in short order. I can't thing of a more nightmarish situation than the population of Los Angeles (3,792,621) wandering out into the Hollywood Hills to kill something for dinner. In short order, the only thing to eat would indeed be each other.
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#58466 - 08/22/11 09:49 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Jake999]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Well, since half of LA's population seems to be vegetarian, the meat-eating omnivorous folk would have tasty tofu-fed humans to stalk and kill.

The whole premise of reverting back to the hunter-gatherer lifestyle is a fantasy of both vegetarians and meat-eating omnivores alike. Unless you live in a rural area and can regularly raise/kill your own food, I guess you're shit out of luck. Should city-dwellers be forced to go vegan? LOL I live in suburbia, and the only real farms nearby are at least a two-hour drive away. The cost (and pollution) of gas to get there and back doesn't really offset buying from a small farm vs. getting it from the store. At some point I would really like to have a few chickens in the backyard so I can ensure that they're eating a proper omnivorous diet and have tasty eggs.

Another thing that always cracks me up, is the numbers vegetarians cite when they assert "the cost of raising and transporting meat is bad for the environment". Well, so does having to ship those exotic fruits from Brazil (how else can you get bananas in February?), canned lentils, Morningstar black bean burger patties and all of the other food that vegetarians have to eat in order to stay healthy. If you're not a vegetarian locavore, then you're contributing to global pollution as much as the next person.
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#58468 - 08/22/11 10:10 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Most vegan ideas are vague and completely disregarding reality.

If we'd all stop eating meat and became vegan, we'll run into problems because there is not enough land available to farm crop at such a level. Not all land is good for farming, something which they easily forget. So we might have to make the decision to level some woods to gain farmland.

Also farming crop at such a level has a high cost in animal life. Yes, farming crop kills animals too. Birds, small mammals... etc. So the real question is; is the life of a mouse or bird worth less than the life of a cow? It is estimated that a full change to the vegan diet has a higher death toll than what we do now but the killing is, of course, less visible.

So unless we learn to live of thin air and stand still at one spot our whole lives, we will inevitable kill other lifeforms.

For something to live, something else has to die. C'est la vie.

D.

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#58469 - 08/22/11 10:18 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Clow Abhorred
 Quote:
What a white knight, someone pass this guy a fresh good guy badge from the box.

Are you aware if animals stopped eating other animals, the entire world would go extinct within a few months? This sort of special pleading based on RHP morality makes me laugh.


i already said i am not against killing animals in their own natural environment. only against consuming their meat in stores. your ignorant point of view is pathetic and disappointing. and if i'd agree with RHP i wouldn't have been here, believe me. not that i need to justify to you. you're just another ignorant creature of society.


Weak sauce dude, weak sauce. So because we purchase it from a store rather than kill it ourselves that somehow changes the moral underpinnings?(which are by definition a RHP construct)

Just because you like the devils suit doesn't mean you undertaking his praxis. Where would you like me to pin your badge?
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#58473 - 08/22/11 12:20 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
when7iseleven Offline
member


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 199
Loc: High Peak, UK
Hi Diavalo

"If we'd all stop eating meat and became vegan, we'll run into problems because there is not enough land available to farm crop at such a level. Not all land is good for farming, something which they easily forget. So we might have to make the decision to level some woods to gain farmland."

Plainly wrong I'm afraid; firstly the rainforest that is being felled is being so in the main to grow palm oil & soya bean, the majority of which is used to make animal feed. Secondly it takes up to two & a half times more land to make the same calorific value from animal protein than it does from vegetable protein.

If the population keeps growing as it is & we are to feed everyone on the planet then I'm afraid eventually the only way will be vegetarianism; or some laboratary produced gunge out of a tube.

Regards

W

PS.........personally I don't eat meat or fish but won't wear anything other than leather shoes.........I know



Edited by when7iseleven (08/22/11 12:21 PM)
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#58474 - 08/22/11 12:27 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: when7iseleven]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Last I checked there wasn't any rain forest around where I live and I assume there is none in the UK either.

So any new farm land here comes at the expense of woods or other nature areas.

D.

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#58476 - 08/22/11 02:05 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: when7iseleven]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:
Secondly it takes up to two & a half times more land to make the same calorific value from animal protein than it does from vegetable protein.


What?

4oz. serving of firm tofu: 94 calories
4oz. serving of ground beef: 331 calories
4oz. serving of cheese: 320 calories

You've got it backwards, it would take 4x as much soybean crop to produce the same amount of calories you could get from a cow, not to mention its many byproducts such as cheese and milk.

PS: The only reason soy is eaten in such large quantities today is because it's convenient to harvest for human consumption since there is so much of it grown for cattle feed, same as corn. Soy is also increasingly used as a biofuel, same as corn for ethanol. And since neither ethanol or soy diesel is as efficient as regular ol' petroleum, more has to be used to achieve the same results, ie gas mileage.

Why can't vegetarians simply be honest and say they don't eat meat because they're squeamish, instead of trying to come up with all of these "noble" justifications which they seem to pull out of their asses? Every statistic I hear about the impact of a veg diet differs depending upon which environmentalist's blog they got it from.
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#58477 - 08/22/11 02:14 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: when7iseleven]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
Nem, I think his point was that it takes more land to source meat than it does to source vegetables (because it takes a lot to feed the animals).

 Originally Posted By: when7iseleven
If the population keeps growing as it is & we are to feed everyone on the planet then I'm afraid eventually the only way will be vegetarianism; or some laboratary produced gunge out of a tube.


Not so. You overlook a vast replenishable resource that you yourself have mentioned: the population. Americans could be the new kobe beef

"Soylent Green is ..." ah, you know the rest. (Don't you?)


 Originally Posted By: when7iseleven
PS.........personally I don't eat meat or fish but won't wear anything other than leather shoes.........I know


Situational ethics, my favorite kind of entertainment
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#58478 - 08/22/11 02:19 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Autodidact]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
It'd take a lot to feed humans too, if that's all they ate. Cattle are predominantly pasture-raised, meaning they eat grass until they're sent off to be "finished". Finishing cattle takes about 200 days, and they're fed nothing but a fattening, high-protein diet of corn, soy and grains. So really, you can only count those 200 days as actual grain consumption in raising cattle. The majority of their lives is spent eating non-arable grass land. Which, circling around to Diavolo's point, is not suited for raising crops.
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#58481 - 08/22/11 02:42 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Not only that, agriculture also requires an awful lot of water which poses yet another problem when completely switching to it.

But besides all this, what is actually a valid argument to not eat meat? If you ask me, there are only two; either you don't like the taste or you can't digest the meat. All other arguments are actually silly arguments.

If you don't eat meat because animals have to die for it, you have to stop buying anything non-essential too. You can't use the one as a "moral" argument and neglect the others. Everything we buy comes at the expense of lives, animals or humans. But still, you'll find many vegans roleplaying the Righteous One because they don't eat meat but at the same time owning a house filled with trivial non-essential shit that causes bloodshed too. But I guess it's hard to follow a principle all the way.

So what do we get? A lot of folks banging their chest because they are so doing the "right" thing while remaining very silent about the fact they're doing the "wrong" thing too.

D.

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#58482 - 08/22/11 02:46 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Managor Offline
member


Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 110
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
It'd take a lot to feed humans too, if that's all they ate. Cattle are predominantly pasture-raised, meaning they eat grass until they're sent off to be "finished". Finishing cattle takes about 200 days, and they're fed nothing but a fattening, high-protein diet of corn, soy and grains. So really, you can only count those 200 days as actual grain consumption in raising cattle. The majority of their lives is spent eating non-arable grass land. Which, circling around to Diavolo's point, is not suited for raising crops.


The daily diet recommended for fattening up a two year old beef steer includes 25 pounds of corn or sorghum silage, four pounds of red clover hay, 14 pounds of corn or ground grain sorghum and a pound and a quarter of linseed meal or cottonseed meal.

The amount of milk and butterfat produced each year by a cow can be increased by a proper diet. The average dairy cow eats three pounds of silage and one pound of hay each day for every 100 pounds of its body weight. Dairy cows also receive one pound of grain or other concentrated feed for every four to six pounds of milk they give.


Don't think we eat 25 pounds of corn a day though(Not adding in the rest as that doesn't seem like something we would eat..or should eat...)

That's 5000 pounds of corn in 200 days alone--PER BEEF STEER

Now personally, veganism to me is dumb. I love my beef(and I don't like salad that much), but that's a shit load of corn. It takes an average of 6 months to grow feed corn. Now 5000 pounds of regular corn can feed a lot of people. However, protein value would drop like a brick turd on a hot summer day.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Not only that, agriculture also requires an awful lot of water which poses yet another problem when completely switching to it.

But besides all this, what is actually a valid argument to not eat meat? If you ask me, there are only two; either you don't like the taste or you can't digest the meat. All other arguments are actually silly arguments.

If you don't eat meat because animals have to die for it, you have to stop buying anything non-essential too. You can't use the one as a "moral" argument and neglect the others. Everything we buy comes at the expense of lives, animals or humans. But still, you'll find many vegans roleplaying the Righteous One because they don't eat meat but at the same time owning a house filled with trivial non-essential shit that causes bloodshed too. But I guess it's hard to follow a principle all the way.

So what do we get? A lot of folks banging their chest because they are so doing the "right" thing while remaining very silent about the fact they're doing the "wrong" thing too.

D.



Even gummy bears have cow fat in them.
-Just a random fact about your statement.


Edited by Managor (08/22/11 02:59 PM)

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