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#44422 - 11/23/10 11:00 AM Veganism; It could kill you.
Dutch Satanist Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 69
Loc: Delft, The Netherlands
You know them. Those people who refuse to consume meat, milk and eggs, because they are produced by and from animals. These bipedal brontosaurs think veganism is the best thing since sliced bread, even though they are forgetting that humans are omnivores and require animal protein. They wish not to kill for their food, but they are not realizing that everyone needs to exterminate life in order to sustain oneself.

Fortunately, some people come to their senses like this vegan woman, who was plagued with several malnutrition-related ailments, until her doctor recommended she started to eat meat again. Guess what, her health returned when she went back to an omnivorous diet.

Story here: http://voraciouseats.com/2010/11/19/a-vegan-no-more/

The story in itself is interesting, but what I also find interesting are the comments on that blog post. Pay special attention to posts from frothing vegans that go into defense-mode.
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#44423 - 11/23/10 11:20 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Dutch Satanist Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 69
Loc: Delft, The Netherlands
Hm, seems all the negative comments are suddenly gone... They were there a moment ago!

EDIT: Never mind, the bitching starts somewhere further in the comments.


Edited by Dutch Satanist (11/23/10 11:22 AM)
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#44424 - 11/23/10 11:27 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Here's some simple logic.

Lions, tigers, wolves, meat eating creatures... THE HUNTERS.
Cows, grazing animals, plant eating creatures... THE HUNTED.

When we want to build lean muscle mass... think of the bodies of atheletes from boxers to sprinters... we eat PROTEIN. Meaty, power producing substances.

When we want to build larger bodies, such as cattle and sheep for slaughter, we use vegetable matter.

Were I in the business of controlling, I would feed my nations bread, while I fed my soldiers meats.
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#44425 - 11/23/10 11:49 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Jake999]
Dutch Satanist Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 69
Loc: Delft, The Netherlands
Oh, I am a total omnivore, and I know what you are getting at, and I agree.

To thrive, our biology is such that we do need animal protein. It's all about the B12, which we can't synthesize (yet). So, any B12 out there comes from animals. And vegans take these in supplements or else they wither away, and they know it. What does that make them? Hypocrites.

What disturbs me about some vegans is that their approach is almost fundamentalist. It's like a damn religion.
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#44426 - 11/23/10 12:11 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I read that the other day, and what happened to her in regards to her deteriorating health is what happens to vegans all the time. Their self-righteousness is what's killing them, as surely as abstaining from all and any animal products.

People were actually sending her death threats because of her finally waking the fuck up to her poor diet and eating meat again.

Vegans = Religious fundamentalists + Environmentalists

A pretty scary combination. These are the kind of people who try to blow up whaling ships, even though they (the pirates) are violating every nautical and international law on the books by doing so.

I just can't understand the mental brainwashing it must take, to regard meat as "disgusting" and "unhealthy".
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#44428 - 11/23/10 01:53 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
Their self-righteousness is what's killing them, as surely as abstaining from all and any animal products.


Neologism: autodarwinian

 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
I just can't understand the mental brainwashing it must take, to regard meat as "disgusting" and "unhealthy".


It's the same brainwashing as everything else - the actual details of the new mode of thinking are not material. People are easy to reprogram. (AAMOF, I just located a copy of Perry London's 'Behavior Control' ...)

So easy, in fact, that sometimes I wonder about the future of the species. If we went out now, we'd be far, far less successful than Neanderthal man.

Wouldn't it be ironic if Satanism turned out to be the savior of mankind?
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#44430 - 11/23/10 03:18 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Autodidact]
Dutch Satanist Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 69
Loc: Delft, The Netherlands
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact

So easy, in fact, that sometimes I wonder about the future of the species. If we went out now, we'd be far, far less successful than Neanderthal man.


Heh, I wonder how much of humanity would survive if suddenly all power went out globally. I think that many in the so-called developed countries would starve to death. Mainly because they don't know basic things like how to create fire, hunt and/or butcher meat. Technology is nice, but over-reliance on it could be detrimental in a situation like that.

I think the skinny malnourished vegans might be the first to go. Especially in winter time. Natural selection at its finest.

 Originally Posted By: Autodidact

Wouldn't it be ironic if Satanism turned out to be the savior of mankind?


Indeed. \:\)
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#44440 - 11/24/10 08:33 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
XBlackXScorpionX Offline
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Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 24
Loc: Arizona
I take joy in eating a wide assortment of things. Seems short sighted to not responsibly enjoy everything ya' can.

 Originally Posted By: Dutch Satanist
Heh, I wonder how much of humanity would survive if suddenly all power went out globally. I think that many in the so-called developed countries would starve to death. Mainly because they don't know basic things like how to create fire, hunt and/or butcher meat. Technology is nice, but over-reliance on it could be detrimental in a situation like that.

I think the skinny malnourished vegans might be the first to go. Especially in winter time. Natural selection at its finest.



I have several vegan friends who have admitted to me that they'd need to get back on "the meat" if society decided to crumble.

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#44442 - 11/25/10 12:05 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: XBlackXScorpionX]
mountaingoat Offline
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Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 471
Loc: Colorado
I foolishly tried vegetarianism and briefly veganism for a brief period as a "health" measure. When I reintroduced meat to my diet, my health improved in days. I am a hunter and a firm believer in the high fat, moderate protein and low carb diet. I am also a firm believer that people need to understand their place in the food chain and actively participate. Herbivores can only participate in one way. And being eaten is a fairly passive means of participation...
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#44757 - 12/08/10 07:38 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
I don't kill or eat mammals on sympathetic principle, and I am trying to work my way out of birds since I like them too. Fish are out of luck; I must have entrenched Gollum in my DNA.

Nevertheless I think that a properly-balanced vegetarian diet is better for people than a carnivore one, in part because of the unhealthy way that many food-animals are raised and "processed".

However I have what I maintain is an ideal solution to this issue: eat insects. They're much cleaner and more nourishing than raised-food animals. There are plenty of them, and plenty varieties of them. Also they eat us all the time - fleas, mosquitoes, bedbugs, et al. while we're animate, and maggots when we're not. Seems only poetic justice.

Also global-warming is leading to serious overinsectization, with only a few years left before anything with less than six legs is extinct. Our only hope is to start eating them faster than they can eat us. You have all been warned!
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#44770 - 12/09/10 04:59 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
I agree... (and Veganism vs. Vegetariansim means a whole lot)

I think most fish have a chance... unless farm raised, and I try not to eat them.

Otherwise, the meat industry... the Jungle... I'm thinking of going back to vegetarianism... or pescatarianism... whatever it's called.

I might eat some deer meat... but not if it was just done in by some sniper in a tree... run! And kill it clean... A real hunter... hunt... don't just sit there with deer piss on you... get a spear, and a good sharp knife, bullets too, but make it right, clean shot. Hunt a male bear with only a knife... I'd have so much respect, and you can have that skin in your den. And you should be proud.

Insects! Totally. But, how do they taste? I was talking to my kids about this, my son loves chocolate. I wondered if he'd eat a chocolate covered ant, or grasshopper... he didn't give me an answer.

I think the way to overcome the insect thing... is "Prawns"... yeah, we call them "shrimp"... but when you see people eat these things heads and all... on "Chopped" or "Iron Chef", and say "it's okay, it's gourmet food"... it's not. It's an animal with an exoskeleton, much like many insects... very much like an arachnid species... looks like an underwater scorpion, spider...

I read that the average human "accidentally" consumes about 6 spiders each year...

Didn't hurt you. Easier to go down than that fly in my wine...

I'd fry them up... but it's gotta be a great sauce...
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#44772 - 12/09/10 05:18 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: daevid777]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Well, bugs can be eaten and taste pretty damned good if the "chef" knows how to season them well. When I was TDY (temporary duty), attached to the Rangers, we went into the field and ate what they ate. One dish was "ranger stew," which consisted of anything you could find that was edible in 30 minutes within 500 feet of the cook pot.

You would be surprised how many critters you can find under rocks, hanging on trees, etc. Some of the Rangers even knew which barks and leaves would be good for seasoning, and one caught a small rabbit, so we actually had some meat in it as well.

There was an old "hard sarge" who spent about an hour stirring the pot and the spiders and snails and grubs and rabbit and all other creepy crawlies miraculously became RANGER STEW. Hot out of the pot, it had a taste all its own, but not all that bad.
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#44780 - 12/09/10 10:14 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:
Nevertheless I think that a properly-balanced vegetarian diet is better for people than a carnivore one, in part because of the unhealthy way that many food-animals are raised and "processed".


You are aware that there is a growing demand for naturally-raised, grass-fed meat, aren't you? These animals allowed to roam pastures, aren't shipped off to some processing plant where they will spend their last few days of life in sheer terror. Most often, a mobile butcher will come by a farm, shoot the animal right there, and butcher it on site. The cow or lamb will have had minimal stress and will have felt no pain. It wouldn't have been shocked to paralyze it before slaughter, nor forced to wallow in its own excrement. And if you live in the city or suburbs, without a farm within 100 miles, you can always have meat shipped to you.

Sorry, but the standard "vegetarian" excuse for not including meat in your diet has become obsolete. Support your local farmer and don't deprive your body of quality protein. Crop monoculture (which enables the vegetarian lifestyle to be available to a wider range of people and keep prices low) is just as unnatural as gigantic slaughterhouses are for animals. It's also terrible for the land in the long run, growing the same crop year in, year out.

http://www.eatwild.com/
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#44788 - 12/09/10 02:06 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
You are aware that there is a growing demand for naturally-raised, grass-fed meat, aren't you? These animals allowed to roam pastures, aren't shipped off to some processing plant where they will spend their last few days of life in sheer terror. Most often, a mobile butcher will come by a farm, shoot the animal right there, and butcher it on site. The cow or lamb will have had minimal stress and will have felt no pain. It wouldn't have been shocked to paralyze it before slaughter, nor forced to wallow in its own excrement. And if you live in the city or suburbs, without a farm within 100 miles, you can always have meat shipped to you.

Sorry, but the standard "vegetarian" excuse for not including meat in your diet has become obsolete.

No, it hasn't actually. [Lilith and I are longtime IDA supporters, and it has its finger very actively on this pulse.]

I would have no objection to your eating fresh wolverine, bobcat, or Grizzly as long as you kill it personally with a knife. I mean, you should have at least some opportunities. Or you could go for a nice jog around Loch Ness ...
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#44791 - 12/09/10 03:18 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Balance... everything in balance.



Notice the modest portion of steak, delicately balanced with the massive veggie portion. Yes, you to can be a Carnivegitarian, like me. Just moderate your meat intake and balance it thusly.

Eat beef... otherwise the animals think you don't like 'em.

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#44792 - 12/09/10 04:07 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Balance... everything in balance.

I swear on my virginity this is a true story: I did have a friend in Santa Barbara who took me up on the "bobcat with a knife" challenge, and finally treed one in the forest near Lake Cachuma. Went up the tree after it with his Bowie knife. I visited him in the hospital ; the bobcat escaped untouched.

On reflection I should have nominated him for a Darwin Award. Well, if Nemesis wants to take me up on the wolverine, I can always nominate him.
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#44794 - 12/09/10 04:38 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Well, if Nemesis wants to take me up on the wolverine I can always nominate him.


Uh... wrong gender doc... waaaaaaaaaaaay wrong gender.
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#44795 - 12/09/10 05:09 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
If you choose not to eat commercially farmed meat on ethical grounds, I can understand that. But to cut meat out of your diet entirely, when instead you could be buying it from local, humane farmers, is short-sighted.

Your not eating meat isn't putting a single dent into the million dollar defenses of factory farms. Their strengths are lower prices by which to sell their meat, and wider availability (distributed by Walmart and Sam's Club instead of Whole Foods). Instead, empower the livestock farmers who treat their animals right, who allow their poultry to peck and shit and eat bugs in the yard, who allow their cows and goats to fertilize their fields. The more business you give them, the more they can lower their prices and make their grass-fed meats available to more people.

That is what will do the most damage to factory farms.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-community/the-truth-about-vegetarianism.aspx
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#44797 - 12/09/10 05:21 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis

Sorry, but the standard "vegetarian" excuse for not including meat in your diet has become obsolete.

No, it hasn't actually.


Sorry, Doc, but that URL supports Nemesis's argument, and doesn't actually build a case for vegetarianism.

(Well, it doesn't build a case stronger than "some people are mean to animals, so you shouldn't eat them.")
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#44798 - 12/09/10 06:09 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
Uh... wrong gender doc... waaaaaaaaaaaay wrong gender.

"Way" wrong gender? I thot there were just two. Well, particularly living in SF in 2010, I guess that's obsolete!

Anyway, never judge a 600Cer by icon, I guess. Although if everyone here did look like his/her/its icon, it would be a more, um, remarkable community.

Where animals are concerned, I don't consider that they have any less right to their lives than humans do, and I simply don't want to harm them if I can avoid it. [There is some frank personal hypocrisy here, because I still eat fish & fowl. I will rescue a spider in the house, but if a wasp gets in, I reach for the Raid.]

At the culture/country level the entire issue of ?ivorism becomes unresolvable. Adolf Hitler was an adamant vegetarian. He could get Germany to do just about anything except forget Wienerschnitzel and sausages.

So I'll back away from this thread, with just one malicious parting shot. [Go down and click on all the "Next"s.]
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#44801 - 12/09/10 07:56 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:
Anyway, never judge a 600Cer by icon, I guess. Although if everyone here did look like his/her/its icon, it would be a more, um, remarkable community.

I just got such a kick out of seeing 'Event Horizon' one night...paired with my avatar is a quote from the movie.

I've often been mistaken for a male. Actually went for months when I first joined the site without anyone realizing it. I take no offense!

As for the whole animal welfare vs meat-eating....I enjoy meat, and yet I have spent quite a bit of money on my budgies. Earlier this year, one had a prolapse, and even after surgery she didn't make it. I was gutted. Then most recently, one of my hens got her leg mangled in a fight--she has to wear a home-made ecollar so she can't chew on it (which hopefully will be removed after the vet check-up tomorrow). Another budgie was egg-bound and had to have the egg drained and removed, as it was adhered to the mucosa in her oviduct. If you've ever tried to give a small bird oral antibiotics from an insulin syringe, it's an experience. Same with my cats, and dogs. No one could say that I don't care very much about animals, but for me there is a difference between pet animals and food animals. That's why I don't see any hypocrisy in both caring for them and eating them. However, I do advocate humane farming and buying your meat from those kinds of farms. Just because I enjoy steak and chicken does not mean that I wanted that animal to have their beaks cauterized, and having lived their lives in cramped, unsanitary conditions.

As for Hitler being a vegetarian...not sure if he is the greatest advocate to have for your WOE? He did bake a lot of Jews....I guess one couldn't say he was vegan.

I've flipped through the 'recipes' in that book before...makes me more glad than ever that I was born in the '80s!
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#44807 - 12/10/10 01:09 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
I just got such a kick out of seeing 'Event Horizon' one night...paired with my avatar is a quote from the movie.

I on the other hand look exactly like my avatar. The human facade is just for convenience on this strange planet of bloated and squishy carbon composites.

 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
As for the whole animal welfare vs meat-eating....I enjoy meat, and yet I have spent quite a bit of money on my budgies. Earlier this year, one had a prolapse, and even after surgery she didn't make it. I was gutted. Then most recently, one of my hens got her leg mangled in a fight--she has to wear a home-made ecollar so she can't chew on it (which hopefully will be removed after the vet check-up tomorrow). Another budgie was egg-bound and had to have the egg drained and removed, as it was adhered to the mucosa in her oviduct. If you've ever tried to give a small bird oral antibiotics from an insulin syringe, it's an experience.

Lilith has spent a long time as a volunteer at an injured bird rescue/sanctuary, and stopped eating chicken after the chickens there started snuggling with and cooing to her. Her best story concerns a vulture not able to be released. They assumed he was lonely, so found a lady vulture. He had apparently not seen one since his mom, and was terrified of this strange thing in his cage. They concluded he thinks he's a human, since he's sociable around people.

 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
Same with my cats, and dogs. No one could say that I don't care very much about animals, but for me there is a difference between pet animals and food animals. That's why I don't see any hypocrisy in both caring for them and eating them. However, I do advocate humane farming and buying your meat from those kinds of farms. Just because I enjoy steak and chicken does not mean that I wanted that animal to have their beaks cauterized, and having lived their lives in cramped, unsanitary conditions.

10-4. Any improvement is better than no improvement.

 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
As for Hitler being a vegetarian...not sure if he is the greatest advocate to have for your WOE?

 Originally Posted By: Medicine in National Socialism
Do you know that your Führer is a vegetarian, and that he does not eat meat because of his general attitude toward life and his love for the world of animals? Do you know that your Führer is an exemplary friend of animals, and even as a chancellor, he is not separated from the animals he has kept for years?...The Führer is an ardent opponent of any torture of animals, in particular vivisection, and has declared to terminate those conditions...thus fulfilling his role as the savior of animals, from continuous and nameless torments and pain.



 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
I've flipped through the 'recipes' in that book before...makes me more glad than ever that I was born in the '80s!

More glad than you can ever imagine. I was a child in the 1950s, and my mom loved to experiment [on me] with creative gelatin horrors.
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#44809 - 12/10/10 02:53 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Dutch Satanist Offline
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Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 69
Loc: Delft, The Netherlands
Wow, I go away for a little while, and this thread explodes into activity. \:\)

So, Insects. Yeah, I could see myself eating insects if my grocer decided to sell them. There's probably some yummy recipes to be found somewhere on this vast Internet. But would that discourage me from eating meat? Not really.

I grew up with meat. My dad was a butcher who worked at the local abattoir. So, I have absolutely no qualms about eating meat. Nor do I have any qualms about killing for food. I have butchered chickens (an interesting experience when done for the first time). I have slaughtered pigs. When it enters the abattoir, it turns into food for all I care.

Here in the Netherlands, livestock gets dispatched in a very efficient and suffering-free fashion. A metal rod gets shot in the brain of the animal and it dies instantly. So there's no suffering at all, it happens way too quick. I find this way of dispatching more humane than ritual slaughtering (also called "halal" or "kosher"), where the animal is killed by severing the jugular artery and gets thrown in this fight for it's life which it will eventually lose. And it's just messy.

What this "upbringing" did result in is that I do prefer quality meats. I can spot a lousy cut of beef from a mile away and will refuse to eat that. On the other hand, if I spot a quality cut, I'm all over it. In my experience, the best meat comes from animals that are well treated.

Oh, organic meat is not always the best. I have seen several organic cuts that did not meet my standard of quality. I basically don't care so much about where my meat comes from, as long as it has sufficient quality.
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#44814 - 12/10/10 11:15 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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If god didn't want us to eat animals; he'd made them bulletproof.

To me animals are food. I personally don't care if someone holds their hoof when killed or not. If the meat is tasty, I'm all for it. I'd eat insects to survive but I'd also wipe my ass with leaves when needed. Still, I'm damn glad they invented toilet-paper.

D.

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#44851 - 12/11/10 04:28 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
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Posts: 4997
What's funny about food preferences is that many like to point out that, since we're humans, we have seem to have some moral obligation to treat our food in a certain manner. When I look at nature, it seems none else is bothered about it. Predators suffocate their prey, rip it apart or eat it alive but when we process our meat through meat-factories it apparently is inhumane. I wonder what is a human way to kill food. After all, we excel in our techniques of killing.

I'm not bothered about people preferring to eat vegetables only or put insects on their menu. Hell, in the past I met a breatharian here. I didn't hear from him in years so I assume he did stick to his diet. Eat what you like but don't try to make me feel guilty for liking Bambi on my menu.

D.

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#44870 - 12/12/10 04:27 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Humans are probably tasty... if we take your points... we should be A-okay......

We are Meat. Mmmmm. I can't fucking wait for a human steak!

So delicious... and so easy to kill, really... it's not hard... you can just walk up to them.... you can do it with any blunt object! They'd never expect it! Then... FOOD!.... How easy is that?!?!
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#44871 - 12/12/10 04:30 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: daevid777]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
sorry Diavolo, not meant for you... but this femur tastes awesome...
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#44872 - 12/12/10 04:31 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: daevid777]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Humans aren't bulletproof either...
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#44873 - 12/12/10 04:34 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: daevid777]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
I still feel bad shooting a carrot... but that's another story....
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#44876 - 12/12/10 07:32 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: daevid777]
JysusCryst Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 21
Loc: Iraq
From a very young age (about 13 or so) I got the brilliant idea that once I die, I want my body to be donated to cannibals. Save, of course, for all the parts that can be transplanted and used to save someone else's life. I won't be using them anymore, so they can have them.

As far as the vegetarianism deal, I LOVE eating meat. Whatever kind of meat it is. Do I care how the animal died? Not really. Would I prefer a 'humane' death to one such as kosher or halal? Of course, but the animal already is dead, why not use it?

As far as giving my money to those companies and other such places that kill food in an 'inhumane' way...well, I'm in Iraq now, so I eat whatever is at the chow hall. Back stateside, I eat a lot of Tyson's chicken.

Does a little research

It's definitely not the most humane place to get food. I don't think I'm going to stop eating it though. It's cheap, and taste good, even if it's not the most healthy or nice about killing.
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"Learn to value yourself, which means: to fight for your happiness" - Ayn Rand

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#44879 - 12/12/10 04:18 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: daevid777]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Is there any point to this?

D.

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#45757 - 12/30/10 01:20 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
creativevalue Offline
banned
pledge


Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 93
I am reading, and intrerpreting, that you limit the amount of meat you eat? If I interpret correctly, I agree with your point.

FDA inspected meats are laced with growth hormones that have similar effect to steroids on our bodies, and FDA inspectors do not remove diseased or deformed animals, they just cut off the deformity, and toss the rest back in for consumption.

I am on a limited vegetarian diet. I eat only meats that pass both government and religious inspection, and that means no hormones or artifical additives in feed or animal, no disease, blemishes, or deformities, and humane treatment of the animal. There are no artificial additives in any of my foods.

Here is a tasty bread tip. Instead of water use "apple juice" when making breads. It tastes delicious.

Enjoying the food we eat is very important, and recognizing that everyone is different, some people should be vegetarians, and some people need to eat more meat.

As a finishing touch, a glass of wine on occasion is good for us all.

Respectfully!






Edited by creativevalue (12/30/10 01:34 AM)

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#45762 - 12/30/10 11:16 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
I would think the point is if you like meat it it, if you don't like it stay away from it. Not real hard to figure out to me. What's bad for us today will be good for us tomorrow anyway. Do as you wish.
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Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#45766 - 12/30/10 12:15 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: manofsteel]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
If you'd have looked closely, you'd have noticed I was asking that question to daevid777 because I was wondering what the actual point of that stream of consciousness was.

If he feels the need, he'll surely will answer.

D.

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#45769 - 12/30/10 03:46 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
creativevalue Offline
banned
pledge


Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 93
My reply came out after your post, even though I was not trying to reply to your post. I do not know why that happens, it is strange, whatever the reason. Look at the top of the post and you can see the message to who it was a reply.

Agree, if he feels the need he will reply to you.

My Best

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#45770 - 12/30/10 03:49 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: manofsteel]
creativevalue Offline
banned
pledge


Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 93
Interesting you mention change, because peoples bodies and needs do change, and these changes may be predicated on deficiencies that develop from previous eating habits.

We should respect that every person is different, and will have different nutritional needs.


Edited by creativevalue (12/30/10 03:52 PM)

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#45774 - 12/30/10 05:20 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: creativevalue]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Thank you for informing me about the technical details of this forum and pointing me out how I can check who replied to who. If I may return the favor, following your suggestion to me, you can check that I was actually replying to manofsteel instead of you.

I sincerely hope you weren't worried.

D.

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#45786 - 12/31/10 01:48 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
I'm sorry, I do know who you were replying too. I was just just issuing a statement that I thought was pretty vague and not to aim it at anyone. I mean goodlord we're talkin food here. Either eat it or don't. Either way I don't give a shit. My ending was just meaning that every year what they said was bad for you last year is good now. I personally love steak and could eat it 2 times a day if I could but it costs too damn much. Anyway I was just saying eat as you wish no matter who started the thread.
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Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#45787 - 12/31/10 02:27 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
creativevalue Offline
banned
pledge


Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 93
I agree, don't worry about it. Wherever this post comes out, yours was appreciated. I am still learning how to use the controls, and as you see some of these posts are landing in strange places.
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#45791 - 12/31/10 09:10 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: daevid777]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: daevid777
Humans are probably tasty... if we take your points... we should be A-okay......

We are Meat. Mmmmm. I can't fucking wait for a human steak!

So delicious... and so easy to kill, really... it's not hard... you can just walk up to them.... you can do it with any blunt object! They'd never expect it! Then... FOOD!.... How easy is that?!?!


Umm...you can't convince me to eat some of the humans I've seen while I was working! Even a chicken looks smarter than some of those people!! Hell, even the fish have "goals" in their life times.

As for humans being easy to kill...well, sometimes beating a steak does tenderize it like none other! There are a few people out there that could use a good beating and then someone could have a feast of tender meat.

I'm not Hannibal though, so I guess that's a complete NO for me.

**BTW, thanks for grossing me out. It made me visualize some pretty hideous looking platters, like a pig/people roast.
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#45811 - 12/31/10 11:14 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nyte]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Funny little back n forth there,

Now I know this is directed at Daevid777 but I’m going to say it anyway… lol

 Originally Posted By: Nyte
Umm...you can't convince me to eat some of the humans I've seen while I was working! Even a chicken looks smarter than some of those people!! Hell, even the fish have "goals" in their life times.

If we are seriously discussing this how smart does a cow have to look to fit on a hamburger bun? Human could probably be processed seasoned and cooked and it would just be another meat or soylent green.

Not that I’m in any way thinking of ever trying it but if the world were to turn into a different place quickly, I don’t doubt stupid worthless human would be on many plates. In the right (or wrong) times such as dying home along with your dogs not being found for a week, well meat is meat.

 Originally Posted By: Nyte
**BTW, thanks for grossing me out. It made me visualize some pretty hideous looking platters, like a pig/people roast.

Those sick images are purely of your own minds design. I see plates of steaks and breaded things myself, nothing identifiably human

Just saying…

Now to somewhat make this topic worthy I ask does anyone disagree that a majority of humanity would turn to cannibalism before becoming vegetarians?

~T~
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#45812 - 01/01/11 02:09 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: ta2zz]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

Funny little back n forth there,

Now I know this is directed at Daevid777 but I’m going to say it anyway… lol


Glad I could make you chuckle tonight.
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
If we are seriously discussing this how smart does a cow have to look to fit on a hamburger bun? Human could probably be processed seasoned and cooked and it would just be another meat or soylent green.

Not that I’m in any way thinking of ever trying it but if the world were to turn into a different place quickly, I don’t doubt stupid worthless human would be on many plates. In the right (or wrong) times such as dying home along with your dogs not being found for a week, well meat is meat.


Ya know what the sad thing is? I've seen steer and chicken that looked brighter than some of those people. That's a scary thought. But I know that if the steer or chicken were smart enough they'd figure out how not to become the next hamburger or chicken sandwich. The killer part to all of that is, those people probably couldn't figure out how not to become a sandwich either. It's the "can't fight their way out of a wet paper sack" mentality I've seen that really makes me wonder about them.

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
Those sick images are purely of your own minds design. I see plates of steaks and breaded things myself, nothing identifiably human

Just saying…

Now to somewhat make this topic worthy I ask does anyone disagree that a majority of humanity would turn to cannibalism before becoming vegetarians?


I know they're purely my own creations. Too many zombie movies lately perhaps. Eh, but at least they're fun to watch and good for a gross out moment here and there.

I'm sure if I had to, I'd find a way to live off of whatever means were neccessary. Would I choose to become a vegetarian over becoming a cannibal? I don't know, I've never had to choose. I've limited myself before to veggies, limited dairy products and the occassional egg or 2. My health suffered for it and I don't think I want to go that way again. But to be honest, I don't know what I would choose.
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#45813 - 01/01/11 03:06 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nyte]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Well hopefullyy you won't have to ever choose. Any store you go in you can choose meat or vegetarian but all I have to say is if we were never taught anything from when we were born what would we be eating??? Meat I can promise you all. We are born that way just like out ancestors or the cavemen but we are just taught differently or we would be the same. Live as you like....
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Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#45866 - 01/03/11 03:25 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: daevid777]
Knievel74 Offline
member


Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 149
Loc: NY
 Originally Posted By: daevid777
Humans are probably tasty... if we take your points... we should be A-okay......

We are Meat. Mmmmm. I can't fucking wait for a human steak!

So delicious... and so easy to kill, really... it's not hard... you can just walk up to them.... you can do it with any blunt object! They'd never expect it! Then... FOOD!.... How easy is that?!?!


From what I understand, humans are supposed to be tasty. We're the only animals with saline in our blood which gives our flesh a salty taste \:D

...think I'll sharpen my katana for the next unsuspecting dooshbag \:D
_________________________
"Man was meant to live, not just to exist". - Evel Knievel

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#45868 - 01/03/11 03:31 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Knievel74]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Then if I ever get trapped on a mountain I will eat my wife first cause she has more saline than most. And I thought implants were just for fun. What a dumb ass I am. And I did mean eat her literally by the way just in case anyone was wondering.
_________________________
Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#45887 - 01/03/11 04:19 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Knievel74]
Dutch Satanist Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 69
Loc: Delft, The Netherlands
Trust me, you do not want to eat humans. At least, not if you can help it. Human flesh is filled with all sorts of pathogens (prions, viruses, bacteria, etc.) that you as a human are susceptible to that your immune system hasn't encountered yet.

On another note, there used to be a soy-based alternative that was supposed to have the same texture and taste as human flesh called Hufu, but some research has pointed out that such a thing was fictional. Still, an interesting concept if you are an antrhopologist that is studying cannibalism.

On a more lighthearted note, there used to be a hoax site called manbeef.com, but that doesn't exist anymore. I found it archived on archive.org though, here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010331032727/www.manbeef.com/home.html (it's slow loading though, give it time)
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#45967 - 01/06/11 05:05 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Mindmaster Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Detroit, MI
Honestly, my take on the issue is simple:

1) How does the food make you feel after eating it.

2) Hereditary health concerns (in my case, diabetes, cancer, cardiovascular issues, etc.)

I'm not a militant vegetarian or whatever but I like animals both on a plate and as pets. Currently, as a result of my red meat lard-ass american diet I don't really feel too hot so I am pondering altering my menu choices in the near future to stem off the myriad of ailments that certainly my current diet isn't assisting me in.

Too much soft drink, too much red meat (really any... it all has loads of bad fat too it, I wouldn't be able to stop it unless I just quit it.. one bite I'd be back in like a crack addict).. etc...

Bottom line... all this heavy artery clogging jazz either stops here or in the operating room.. it's much easier to have a cheater steak a couple times a year (really how often you should be eatting it) So in many ways my only justification is health.. everything else is really a stupid reason anyway.

Now for some people I think that the hard core meat eating diet will not effect them poorly or whatever and you know what I'm cool with that. It's definitely working poorly for me however. There are some sacrifices I am not sure of yet.. meat is actually an easier decision than dairy products... soy replacement products aren't CHEAP, and you can't even argue that milking a cow harms the animal so yea I don't get vegan things either. The vegetarian spinach quiche is easy to eat and enjoyable so long as you bring the real cheese. Some of the subs are more bearable than others.... your mileage may very.

Most vegetarian food isn't bad, since honestly I've tried it before even while being full meat eating. Right now I'm about 50/50 but I'm looking to cut that to zero this year. In all cases really the diet that makes you feel the best is the right one your own body really is the best judge.


Edited by Mindmaster (01/06/11 05:05 AM)

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#45975 - 01/06/11 10:32 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Mindmaster]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
It's not the meat that's making you fat, it's the 'vegetarian approved' junk carbohydrates that are putting on the chub. People whose diets comprise mostly of grains and sugars tend to be DING DING DING! FAT! Hence the obesity epidemic in the West. It has nothing to do with our meat consumption.

You have to eat fat to burn fat. Low-fat diets fail because all they do is put your body into starvation mode which in turn signals your body to retain every bit of fat it can, instead of burning it off as energy.
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#46009 - 01/06/11 05:48 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Finally somebody that makes some damn sense. People have been eating meat and will continue to eat meat for as long as we all live. It gives you energy which you can burn off and like Nemisis said if you don't eat fat you are doing nothing. Besides all that the shit tastes good! Beef, pork, chicken, all good and a staple in the U.S.
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#46029 - 01/06/11 11:18 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: manofsteel]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: manofsteel
Finally somebody that makes some damn sense. People have been eating meat and will continue to eat meat for as long as we all live. It gives you energy which you can burn off and like Nemisis said if you don't eat fat you are doing nothing. Besides all that the shit tastes good! Beef, pork, chicken, all good and a staple in the U.S.


Chicken is not as healthy as some would have you think. There are quite a few good articles out there about the fat content in chicken and what people have found in long term studies. If you have to eat bird, turkey is much better for you. Without the skin of course. Although, I swear, that's the BEST part. ;\)
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#46041 - 01/07/11 07:28 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nyte]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
The skin is perfectly fine to eat, as long as you don't have a plateful of it. A lot of it depends upon what diet the bird was fed. Hormones, antibiotics, etc, tend to be deposited in fat throughout the body, and skin is no exception. I would not recommend eating the skin of poultry that came from Walmart or Aldi.

You may not have to forgo the scrumptious skin either, suggests Lilian Cheung, editorial director of "The Nutrition Source" from Harvard's School of Public Health. "There is more monounsaturated fat than saturated fat in poultry skin. The skin adds calories, but there is more healthful fat in it than unhealthful fat."
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Nothing is sacred.

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#46042 - 01/07/11 08:12 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
It's not the meat that's making you fat, it's the 'vegetarian approved' junk carbohydrates that are putting on the chub.


Verified - my sister and her kids eat nothing but low-fat stuff, and she ignores my explanations that low-fat == high sugar. It's right on the damn label. And they're all super-chunkified.

Her husband, OTOH, is overweight because he eats very healthy ... but puts away the weight-gain-pseudo-steroid-powder drinks like they were Big Gulps ...
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#46045 - 01/07/11 09:42 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
The skin is perfectly fine to eat, as long as you don't have a plateful of it. A lot of it depends upon what diet the bird was fed. Hormones, antibiotics, etc, tend to be deposited in fat throughout the body, and skin is no exception. I would not recommend eating the skin of poultry that came from Walmart or Aldi.

You may not have to forgo the scrumptious skin either, suggests Lilian Cheung, editorial director of "The Nutrition Source" from Harvard's School of Public Health. "There is more monounsaturated fat than saturated fat in poultry skin. The skin adds calories, but there is more healthful fat in it than unhealthful fat."



Hmm, that's good news. When we make turkey around here, my oldest son and I could fight over the skin. It's the tastiest part of the bird, or so it seems. Now, I can eat that guilty pleasure and not feel so bad about it. I'll keep it in moderation though. Thanks Nemesis.
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If only just for today.....

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#46046 - 01/07/11 09:55 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Autodidact]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
Verified - my sister and her kids eat nothing but low-fat stuff, and she ignores my explanations that low-fat == high sugar. It's right on the damn label. And they're all super-chunkified.

Her husband, OTOH, is overweight because he eats very healthy ... but puts away the weight-gain-pseudo-steroid-powder drinks like they were Big Gulps ...


All that processed crap is bad, on so many levels. A lot of what I have in my home now has to be used from week to week or it goes bad. When I do bake, it's from scratch and snacks aren't a daily occurance any more. Foods have become "quick easy fixes" and that doesn't mean it's good for ya, at all. Even the "healthy" foods aren't good, most of the time, unless it's a "whole" food.
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#46049 - 01/07/11 10:03 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Autodidact]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Funny that you mention that stuff your sister feeds her kids...I made myself go into an Aldi the other day (a discount generic grocery store, for those not in the know) and saw a fat guy loading up his cart with Aldi's "Fit & Active" brand....I nearly guffawed out loud when I saw that he'd grabbed a box of Fit & Active gummy bears in snack packs. /facepalm

Shopping smarter just became eating smarter!
*Note: No one who shops at Aldi will ever look like the lady on this page.
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#46120 - 01/07/11 05:03 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
That Fit & Active crap is just that......CRAP! The preservatives are off the hook in that stuff. I would have died laughing seeing that guy's cart!

My mom use to swear by the Weight Watchers crap too. Yeah, at first anyone can lose some weight, but your body pays for it with all the preservatives it has to dump into your liver and kidneys. The really bad part is, some of those things never filter through. They stay and cause permanent damage. Ask me, I KNOW. I'm highly allergic to sweetners for this very reason. Mom would dump that shit down our throats because she thought it was "better" for us. Less calories, less fat, less this, less that....even less on being a real food source. Thanks MOM! Also, many, many times, the minute the person quits eating their product the weight comes right back and usually more. Not worth it in the long run. I finally had to tell her that if she tried one more time to get me or the boys to eat/try one of her "grain bars" I was going to slap her with it. I'm estatic we no longer have to deal with that anymore.

**Quick side note...Is that one of your birds in your avatar Nemesis?
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#46127 - 01/07/11 05:19 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nyte]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Hehe no, just a random picture of the angriest cockatiel I've ever seen. And found whilst searching for "Col. Hans Landa meme" no less!
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#46158 - 01/07/11 07:05 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
Hmm, wonder if the bird's name was Col. Hans? Tiels are great pets and that pic is too funny.

The regularly scheduled progam may now resume....
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If only just for today.....

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#46180 - 01/07/11 08:55 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nyte]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
You should see my dad's tiel. Pure fucking evil. Twenty years old and would be happy to rip your nose off of your face. Meanwhile my sweet female tiel, Pepi, will cluck and snuggle with me any time.

Back on topic, I'm seeing more and more vegans and vegetarians recanting their previous anti-meat stances. Whether it's based on the actual environmental impact of raising livestock, or their deteriorating health on a diet excluding all forms of animal protein.

Prominent vegan advocate: I was wrong about veganism
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#46186 - 01/07/11 11:44 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
LOL Nemesis....I've encountered a few tiels like your dad's. But many more I've raised that are like your own little girl. I miss them in so many ways, but I'm now glad not to have to clean up after all the birds I use to have. I've learned to play with the babies at the pet stores and go home happy with that little bit of time spent at the store instead of a lot more at home.

Back to topic as well. Thank you for posting that link. I think I may actually purchase the book that caused George Monbiot to take a second look at his own stances on the subject of meats. From everything I've read through out the links and reviews, it might really have some interesting information in it.

I have raised steer for food (quite some time back) and because we raised them in an open field, mostly grass fed, they ended up being some of the leanest and best tasting beef I had ever had. Grandpa, who was not of blood relation but might as well have been, always said that feeding the cattle too much grain wasn't good for them. I guess there was something to the "old ways" of raising live stock. Now if we could just get the farming industry to listen, we might seriously get some where. I'm not banking on it though.

This book, just might confirm some of my own suspicions concerning our own food sources and what affect they REALLY do or don't have on the enviroment. Along with a few other theories I've had pass through my head a time or two. Or it could completely change my own thoughts. I do believe I'll have to give it a read. Thank you again.
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If only just for today.....

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#46872 - 01/16/11 12:37 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
If you crave beef but don't want to eat the animal version, try Gardein, which is the best-tasting fake beef I've encountered yet. I recommend the "Burgundy Trio" for a start.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#46878 - 01/16/11 06:43 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Zach Black Offline
lurker


Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 3
Loc: San Diego , California USA
I have worked as a sushi chef. Edamamie(soy bean) is also an alternative to meat.





One line posts are frowned upon here. Please expand on your posts as well as reading the rules and regulations. Morgan


Edited by Morgan (01/16/11 05:04 PM)
Edit Reason: informed of rules
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Zach Black

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#52365 - 04/07/11 10:22 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Liadan Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 10
Loc: Netherlands
Wow that story is so familiar to me! I went vegetarian when I was 10, then turned vegan at 15. I've been vegan for 3 years, the first year went very well, but later I started to feel depressed and exhausted all the time.
About a year ago I started eating eggs again and recently I also started eating fish and I feel so much healthier. I still find it very hard to try other sorts of meat again, bu maybe one day I will try chicken or beef, it's just still a little weird to eat animal products again.

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#52527 - 04/08/11 10:03 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
mightisright Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 24
If people truly enjoy eating only vegetable and other non-meat products, then shouldn't they continue?
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#52528 - 04/08/11 10:04 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
mightisright Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 24
I tried it. Thanks SO much for the recommendation, it's amazing!!
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#52530 - 04/08/11 10:39 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: mightisright]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Only when they push their propaganda to portray our species' natural omnivorous proclivities and dietary needs in a bad light. Don't think they do that sort of thing? Don't think numerous studies are funded by vegetarians or researchers who are biased against meat in some way (Global warming is a big one). Who do you think conducted The China Study? A pro-vegetarian. Who do you think conducts dietary studies on a vegetarian diet? The vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists. Of course they're going to find all sorts of glowing results from their studies because they conveniently ignore any data which does not correlate with their bias.

http://letthemeatmeat.com/post/698054451/interview-with-an-ex-adventist-sondra

They pull numbers and statistics out of their asses, and it turns into a game of telephone. Each time they're repeated, the amount of water it takes to raise a cow from birth to slaughter increases. Or how much % of grain is used for livestock (never mind that it's the inedible kind which is not fit for human consumption in the first place). Or how much gas is used in livestock/meat transport. When you get a hold of a list of these sorts of overblown statistics and put them up on a webpage that attracts thousands of viewers, word spreads, facts become even more convoluted and sources are unreliable. Yet, it gives veggie virgins and veg-curious people the motivation they think they need to stop eating meat. They go on to preach about how great they feel and a few years later, you see them quietly including animal products to their diet. A piece of fish here, maybe a little bit of grilled chicken breast. Why? Failure to thrive.

I'm sure you've heard of the "Red meat gives you cancer" study?

And yet you have a relative handful of individuals who enjoy having to juggle their nutritional needs with their ethical choices, and seem to do alright eating beans, grains & produce. Either way, it's not natural. Having to make sure you get the right amount of amino acids by portioning out your legumes & brown rice instead of just eating a turkey leg is ridiculous. As if our evolutionary predecessors needed to do those things in order to hunt, fuck and breed and evolve to dominate the planet.

Being a vegetarian is very different from being a vegetarian advocate. Aquino is a vegetarian, but he doesn't go pushing it onto others as the "correct" way or even the "natural" way (at least from what I've read). It's a personal choice for him, not one that he's decided to make for all of mankind and that everyone should follow him to Cain's veggie patch.
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#52551 - 04/09/11 07:30 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
I'm not vegetarian only because of laziness, in this I mean that I am a bodybuilder and to get all the necessary amino acids in balance I'd have to measure out all the different beans and vegetables in proportion and I am just the kind of guy who eats 5 meals a day with one portion of meat, fish or poultry with a helping of fruit or vegetables so I average 25 grams of protein and varying moderate carbohydrates each meal with no fats except these horrible omega 3 capsules

It would be more difficult for me to workout how to synthesise the different balances of amino acids in incomplete sources and as meats are complete I eat those out of necessity.

I suppose dairy products are fine for vegetarians? as are whey protein shakes. I have these foods too but I find meat and tuna to be quick to prepare with a salad. I guess I'm just lazy as I have to make 5 meals a day. I can't eat too much cheese and protein shakes or I get bloated see. Meats and tuna seem to be condensed sources of protein compared to eating a mix of two sources to synthesise the amino's.

I don't have much money really and I buy a lot of steak and shed loads of tuna to go with grains and dairy products and vegetables and fruit. I know the importance of reading food labels properly but to mix and match amino acids is all too much for me, I go for complete sources.

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#52556 - 04/09/11 11:31 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Mister Cage Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 49
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
the best-tasting fake beef I've encountered yet.


Good afternoon Dr. Aquino. Is your diet strictly vegan or do you prefer a lesser demanding vegetarian diet?

Is this something you chose to adopt or was it a physicians suggestion?

Are vegetarians permitted to eat animal crackers? Lol!

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#52997 - 04/15/11 02:37 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
Well as about vegetarianism.. I can comprehend certain people to make that choice (in certain Middle-Eastern countries and the Mediterranean part of the world) because it is the only food directly available to them. People can survive and live their life on vegetables and fruits only. As can people who only eat meat and/or other animal-based products (cfr Inuits (generally spoken)).

I simply shrug my shoulders when people in the Western world choose to be vegetarian or carnivorous. I don't really care, admitted I prefer vegetarians who don't preach their eating habits to others. But somewhere I find it wrong to make that choice. We live in a part of the world where both meat and plants are easy available. From the point of health-care I'd say it is quite egoistical and downright stupid to make that choice. A human body is built to be an omnivore thus giving the slight hint that the bodily functions will be at their maximum when a diet of animal-based products and plants is being given.

But to each their own as they say.

For Hegesias and others who do power-training:
As for power-training I agree that you need you amino acids and that meat will provide these. But from experience I learned that before running a marathon or doing other heavy exercises for competition eat a few pieces of fruit or salads or other vegetables have helped increase my endurance. This in the sense of having more energy spread on a wider time-scale. Eating meat is good enough for the muscle/strength building, vegetables for the energy bursts. It's because of certain nutritive components being build into hard to digest parts of the plants. They slowly get digested and providing energy on the long term.

From time to time eating a vegetarian meal is advised when doing competitions.


Edited by Dimitri (04/15/11 02:45 PM)
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#54699 - 05/19/11 09:58 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Jake999]
Crystal9Maat Offline
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Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 6
Loc: South Carolina, USA
Let me add my two cents in here, especially since I have been a dietary vegan for a while now. There are some people who are better suited for this diet, yet it IS not for everyone. There are some that take it a step further than they should, just like in exercise regimens. It's a matter of using common sense and moderation in your diet plan, and in knowing what is right for your own individual plan for being healthy.

A few people I have noticed are quite unaware of basic information on health issues, and in choosing to be uninformed run the risk of opening themselves up to illnesses that could easily be avoided. For example, if a person has heard by word of mouth that a certain greasy spoon is unsanitary, yet still continues to dine there, who's fault is it? Such with eating meats or NOT eating meats. When I shopped for meat products for my own personal consumption, I made sure to read up on the local farmers market and check in with those who have livestock, and see how things were going before investing my money.
This is not difficult to do, it just takes time and effort. If you have a family, which I do - you take the time to find these things out for not just your benefit but for theirs as well.
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#55260 - 05/31/11 12:21 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Crystal9Maat]
Pizgatti Offline
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Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 33
""Cows, calves, pigs, chickens, turkeys, ducks, geese, and other animals live in extremely stressful conditions:

* Kept in small cages or jam-packed sheds or on filthy feedlots, often with so little space that they can't even turn around or lie down comfortably
* Deprived of exercise so that all their bodies' energy goes toward producing flesh, eggs, or milk for human consumption
* Fed drugs to fatten them faster and keep them alive in conditions that could otherwise kill them
* Genetically altered to grow faster or to produce much more milk or eggs than they naturally would (many animals become crippled under their own weight and die just inches away from water and food)

When they have finally grown large enough, animals raised for food are crowded onto trucks and transported over many miles through all weather extremes, typically without food or water, to the slaughterhouse. Those who survive this nightmarish journey will have their throats slit, often while they are still conscious. Many remain conscious when they are plunged into the scalding-hot water of the defeathering or hair-removal tanks or while their bodies are being skinned or hacked apart. ""

Oh yeah, give me some of that meat! Wooooh! Oh yeah!

""Livestock feed uses 5 times more grain to produce a meal than eating it directly. "There can be no question that more hunger can be alleviated with a given quantity of grain by completely eliminating animals [from the food production process]. About 2,000 pounds of concentrates [grains] must be supplied to livestock in order to produce enough meat and other livestock products to support a person for a year, whereas 400 pounds of grain (corn, wheat, rice, soybeans, etc.) eaten directly will support a person for a year. Thus, a given quantity of grain eaten directly will feed 5 times as many people as it will if it is first fed to livestock and then is eaten indirectly by humans in the form of livestock products...."

from M. E. Ensminger, Ph.D., internationally recognized animal agriculture specialist, former Department of Animal Science Chairman at Washington State University, currently President of Consultants-Agriservices, Clovis, California

-- OUT TO PASTURE. If all the U.S. grain now fed to livestock were exported and if cattlemen switched to grass-fed production systems, less beef would be available and animal protein in the average American diet would drop from 75 grams to 29 grams per day. That, plus current levels of plant-protein consumption, would still yield more than the RDA for protein.

Animal agriculture is a leading consumer of water resources in the United States, Pimentel noted. Grain-fed beef production takes 100,000 liters of water for every kilogram of food. Raising broiler chickens takes 3,500 liters of water to make a kilogram of meat. In comparison, soybean production uses 2,000 liters for kilogram of food produced; rice, 1,912; wheat, 900; and potatoes, 500 liters. "Water shortages already are severe in the Western and Southern United States and the situation is quickly becoming worse because of a rapidly growing U.S. population that requires more water for all of its needs, especially agriculture," Pimentel observed. ""


Yeah, great industry there. Not to mention most people can handle vegan diets just fine.

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#55266 - 05/31/11 03:09 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
MattVanSickle84 Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 42
Loc: London, UK
Because there are so many posts here, I'm responding generally. Apologies in advance if I tread on anybody's arguments.

---

I was raised a raging carnivore (actually omnivore, if we want to be serious about this) but when I was younger I went through a vegetarian phase and it lasted for about four years. These days I probably eat more meat to make up for time misspent! My wife is a vegetarian so I'll be careful what I say on here lest she read it!

The thing that sparked the desire to undertake the vegetarian diet was well-intentioned and, I like to think, not reactionary or hysterical. I have always been an animal lover, I'm quite confident that a large number of meat eaters are, and I would not deny my own empathy for the suffering of sentient beings. I'm a Satanist not a psychopath. I would always give "ethical reasons" for my vegetarianism.

But there came an inevitable point where I had to acknowledge that I am as much an animal as any other species, despite the capacity for empathy, compassion etc. Our ancestors were almost certainly omnivorous and so our bodies are almost certainly adapted to do the same as they did.

I have heard arguments that our teeth are not similar to those of other carnivores (which we are not, and which is why we quickly learned to develop and use stone tools in cutting flesh) and that we do not share the desire to tuck in to fresh carrion, which is probably true due to years of very wise conditioning to expect meat to be appropriately cooked and easily accessible/manageable.

I'm not sure whether Mr Ted Nugent would agree with these recent trends in human behaviour and just consider the various "Roadkill Restaurants" in the States for further arguments against that second point.

One of the things that has convinced me that I have made the right decision to go back to meat eating, but should provide pause for thought, is the following argument. The other is: Morrissey (seriously).

The animal rights philosopher Peter Singer has some interesting ideas about eating meat which are not of Morrissey's "we were put here to protect the animals" variety. Singer makes the point that if we are just animals like the rest (which we are) why is cannibalism abhorrent in (most) societies. He employs this argument so as to persuade us that we should reconsider killing and eating animals.

Now, I'm not Jeffrey Dahmer, but you could just as easily flip it the other way and say that this simply weakens the arguments against eating humans. That it's just a cultural taboo, which it clearly is. To some. This is obviously controversial and I stress that I am not fond of masticating my fellow man (I choose my words carefully here!) but it's an argument worth considering and taking seriously.

It's also worth mentioning that I haven't much meat on me and I'm unhealthy! And I have a lot of gristle. Honestly...


If you respect nature and you respect the natural processes that created you, you should not be against humans eating meat. You may choose another path but you may not condemn.
_________________________

The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n.

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#55267 - 05/31/11 03:27 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: MattVanSickle84]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: MattVanSickle84
The animal rights philosopher Peter Singer has some interesting ideas about eating meat which are not of Morrissey's "we were put here to protect the animals" variety. Singer makes the point that if we are just animals like the rest (which we are) why is cannibalism abhorrent in (most) societies. He employs this argument so as to persuade us that we should reconsider killing and eating animals.


One can ask how common cannibalism in nature is. Sure there are examples but I can't think of many mammals that put their own on the menu unless there is scarcity. I consider that argument as one of emotional appeal and not really having much substance beyond that. Which is about the running theme in the meat-debate.

D.

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#55271 - 05/31/11 03:50 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
MattVanSickle84 Offline
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Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 42
Loc: London, UK
You should definitely, in considering this argument, ask whether cannibalism is common in nature.

The answer is yes, extremely common and it has nothing to do with scarcity because that would suggest a taboo amongst animals, against it. Many animals engage in cannibalism often and without restraint. Taboos, as far as I know exist exclusively among Humans and possibly in our closest primate relatives. Possibly.

Now I disagree with Singer's motives for employing this argument, which I agree are appealing to emotion and not to reason. To feelings and not thoughts. Nothing wrong with feelings and emotions by the way, obviously, just not helpful in argument as you point out.

I still think it's a serious question, and there are obviously going to be a huge number of arguments against cannibalism out there. A huge number. But they can't be taken seriously if they even remotely suggest that it isn't natural because it very much is natural. We just choose not to do it for what seem to be cultural reasons.

I'm not advocating breaking this taboo and I'm as far away from a relativist as it's humanly possibly to be, but if the most animalistic amongst us cannot face it who can? It's a tough one. No simple answers.
_________________________

The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n.

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#55278 - 05/31/11 05:18 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: MattVanSickle84]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Since you're (re)stating the argument, I'll be a lazy fuck right now and just ask for examples of mammals eating their own species when food is not scarce.

Personally I doubt it if not only because I just can't imagine any animals besides the typical ones; spider, praying mantis...etc. My knowledge on mammalian cannibalism might not be up to date mind you.

So humor me and maybe surprise at least one of us.

D.

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#55286 - 05/31/11 06:07 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
MattVanSickle84 Offline
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Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 42
Loc: London, UK
Well, it is most common in insects but also has been observed in Squirrels, Chimpanzees, Cats, Elephants, Dogs, Baboons, Bears, Lions, Leopards, Pigs and many different types of fish.

I'm not remotely an expert either but one of the instances where it is most common is Humans where it is definitely not always through scarcity, it is often a tribal, cultural custom and numerous other reasons.

* I'm getting most of the above list from Wikipedia which may immediately arouse suspicion. "A ha! Now he's out of the discussion!" But it is a more reliable source than some people make out and it is very good on scientific matters. The sources are all on there anyway as is the article history etc. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

But even if it wasn't prevalent among other animals and was entirely unique to Humans, I don''t think this would diminish the argument against it one iota, it would in fact strengthen it. Since then it would then be a behaviour which is unique to our species and thus even more difficult to argue against.

It would then be the case that the very things that make us exceptional as Human: cognition, culture, introspection, free will (or the illusion of) over instinct, technology etc. would also include cannibalism as another unique feature. That's clearly not the case.
_________________________

The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n.

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#55289 - 05/31/11 06:36 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: MattVanSickle84]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I think what you are talking about is infanticide and eventually the eating of those. Most of these happen under conditions, like when a new lion alpha kills the cubs of the previous one. If you'd check what is mentioned, you'd find out that most of what is considered cannibalism belongs to that behavior. In that, Singer's arguments still has no foundation since he acts as if it is completely normal for other animals to eat each other which is simply not true.

D.

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#55303 - 05/31/11 08:59 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
My sister's dog, I watched her eat her own deformed puppy right after she gave birth to it.
Thus, at least dogs will eat their own.

I had a mouse that was feeder food for my snakes/lizards. It killed and ripped the head off of another mouse.

That's just my experience so far.

I always thought animals ate their own if they were damaged at birth.

In the past different cultures ate their enemies who they defeated in wars. They thought they took into themselves something of the dead guy. I don't remember if it was their spirit, soul, or physical attributes.

I am quite sure that if necessary the bar-be-que sauce will come in mighty handy if its a matter of personal survival.

M
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
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#55304 - 05/31/11 09:18 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Morgan]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
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It is conditional indeed; population control, removing opponents offspring, injured or deformed newborns, food scarcity. Almost always it is related to offspring. Sure that can be called cannibalism too but it's not quite the same which their argument hints at. The way they bring the argument, it's as if adult elephants eat an elephant burger twice a week.

That's the problem in this debate; they can't but play at our emotions because there is no rational argument why we shouldn't eat meat.

D.

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#55305 - 05/31/11 09:30 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Morgan]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
The bitch eats the pup because she knows it's stillbirth, or going to die. She can eat all of the pups if under enough stress or if the animal is disturbed by humans, this is to preserve her for making more in a suitable environment.

It can happen to the best of breeds. It's best to intervene (if necessary) in short inspections only when the bitch goes to urinate outside, and not to touch the puppies overtly and never bathe them close to newborn. If you bathe them before 8 weeks she may reject them because of the scent change.

Just my experience, so I'd not say this is absolute fact. My sisters are trained as veterinarian assistants but I'm not.


I just thought I'd add this considering I eat meat every day, and still love my dogs. Hmm, do extreme vegetarian sects generally feel dogs are immoral for eating meat and limit them to dry food?
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#55311 - 06/01/11 12:29 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Hegesias]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
This puppy was deformed. It was extra long with 2 head, one on each end. There was no way it could survive outside the womb.
It was really sad, because it wasn't exactly dead going into her mouth.

"That's the problem in this debate; they can't but play at our emotions because there is no rational argument why we shouldn't eat meat."

Exactly.

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#55313 - 06/01/11 04:29 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Morgan]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Not read all there is here. but have 2 cents worth of bullshit relating to veganism.

The ethical rationale of veganism I feel is extremism and irrational. If you are sincere about not wanting to eat animals out of compassion born of also being an animal yourself, it's no rationalization to not eat eggs and dairy (and honey) - eggs and dairy supply a full compliment of proteins so difficult to get if you adhere to a strict vegan diet as well.

That said, people are diverse and there are exceptional individuals that can thrive on a Vegan diet, but that diversity is such that many people CANNOT thrive on a Vegan diet. I live in a town with many sickly looking Vegans.

There is anecdotal evidence that a vegan diet can help cure cancer, and because the explanation seems to make sense to me (vegan proteins being so hard to digest and the body getting protein before the cancer does - it may starve the cancer of nutrition - like a dietary 'chemo') - I can't and won't fault people with cancer that attempt to forward a cure with a Vegan diet.

That said I will cook vegan food on occasion, I have friends that are allergic to eggs and many great vegetarian dishes require no dairy or eggs. But that I make a delicious vegan dish doesn't mean I don't wash it down with a nice tall glass of milk.

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#58399 - 08/21/11 05:30 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Jake999]
Clow Abhorred Offline
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Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 13
i am a vegan. and personally, i am not against eating meat. i am against the way people consume meat. it's in human nature to HUNT the animal and to feed from it. but it just seems twisted to me that i can go to a shop and buy meat in a box. i don't eat meat because i am too lazy to hunt it myself. and another thing: i don't care if someone wants to hunt an animal. it's his business. i am totally against animals are locked and suffering for what so the everyday man will go to the supermarket and buy meat on 9.99? it's so twisted those animals suffer for nothing but pleasing the "HOMO SAPIENS".
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#58400 - 08/21/11 05:38 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Clow Abhorred Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 13
and also. most people would NEVER eat a cat or a dog or a horese (although some cultures do). most people eat cow's meat, chicken. fishes etc. and you know why? because it's the norma. everybody eats that so you do too.

i have two cats and they are the most important living in my life. i would never eat a cat or even a dog so why would i eat a chicken or a cow? because everybody eats that so it's okay. right?

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#58402 - 08/21/11 09:40 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
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Loc: New York City
People eat cats, dogs, horses, and mules. In fact last night I saw a show called Top Gear where they bought mule meat in Nevada? and ate some of it.

I have a recipe for baked cat. Its in an actual medieval cookbook I have someplace in my library. The far east has different views on pets than most Americans so dog and cat on the menu is pretty common.

People eat what they like. What they enjoy the taste and texture of. I love the taste of a nice steak. I like the taste of chicken but hate cooking it.

I would imagine that vegetarians taste different than meat eaters. Humans will eat humans if that is cultural norm or the only available source of food in emergency situations.

In the end, it all comes down to personal choice and health issues. Eat what makes you happy, and works for your own body.

Oh, and Clow Abhorred, please use correct sentence structure and grammar. That matters when trying to convey your point on this site.

Morgan
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
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#58415 - 08/21/11 01:39 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Morgan]
Clow Abhorred Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 13
i disagree with the sentence "eat what makes you happy". it's a very selfish ignorant point of view. there is so much beyond what makes the person happy. men can't take control on other living creature's life, they do though, and it's disgusting. in my opinion.

and it's true it's all cultural thing (i also mentioned it on my previous comment). and it's not like i'm effected by the American's point of view that eating dogs, cats, horses, etc. is immoral. Animals should be eaten at all. again, in my point of view. even if i eats vegan food, and it damages my health, i will never consider to eat meat.

and about the grammar, i am sorry about that. English is not my mother's language. i hope you'll forgive me.

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#58416 - 08/21/11 01:51 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Clow Abhorred
i disagree with the sentence "eat what makes you happy". it's a very selfish ignorant point of view. there is so much beyond what makes the person happy. men can't take control on other living creature's life, they do though, and it's disgusting. in my opinion.

and it's true it's all cultural thing (i also mentioned it on my previous comment). and it's not like i'm effected by the American's point of view that eating dogs, cats, horses, etc. is immoral. Animals should be eaten at all. again, in my point of view. even if i eats vegan food, and it damages my health, i will never consider to eat meat.

and about the grammar, i am sorry about that. English is not my mother's language. i hope you'll forgive me.


What a white knight, someone pass this guy a fresh good guy badge from the box.

Are you aware if animals stopped eating other animals, the entire world would go extinct within a few months? This sort of special pleading based on RHP morality makes me laugh.
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#58417 - 08/21/11 01:55 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
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Last week I encountered this fox feasting on a rabbit. I told him; you bad bad fox, you shouldn't be eating that poor rabbit. You're all brothers and sisters and if you'd only respect that and change your ways, the world would be a so much better place.

Last night he got shot for stealing carrots.

D.

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#58418 - 08/21/11 03:01 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
LMFAO!

That reminds me of the first half of Disgustipated by Tool.

 Originally Posted By: Maynard James Keenan

And the angel of the Lord came unto me,
snatching me up from my
place of slumber,
and took me on high,
and higher still until we
moved in the spaces betwixt the air itself.
and he bore me unto a
vast farmland of our own midwest,
and as we descended cries of
impending doom rose from the soil.
one thousand, nay, a million
voices full of fear.
and terror possessed me then.
and I begged,

"Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"
And the angel said unto me,
"These are the cries of the carrots,
the cries of the carrots.
You see, reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day
and to them it is the holocaust."
And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat
like the tears of one millions terrified brothers
and roared,
"Hear me now,
I have seen the light,
they have a consciousness,
they have a life,
they have a soul.
damn you!
let the rabbits wear glasses,
save our brothers...can I get an amen?
can I get a hallelujah? thank you, Jesus.

life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on...
this is necessary


Edit: Also, Clow, you are an idiot. Especially for going on to a Satanism forum and speaking of selfishness as if it were a bad thing.


Edited by 6Satan6Archist6 (08/21/11 03:03 PM)
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#58423 - 08/21/11 04:43 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
First read the TSB, where LaVey told in his great style some good jokes about RHP abstinence from some food or eating very special food... and second - learn from real life!

Vegan's life style isn't natural and only some good things, which I see in Vegans are following - they support doctors because of their heals problems caused by malnutrition and die young and give space for others, who aren't so much brainwashed...

One of my university professors was vegan and he died during one year, because his wife found veganism stupidity and secretly with vegan’s food gave him enough proteins… He divorced from her and started to feed themselves after best vegans dogmas and could not survive in our north clime even a year…!
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#58425 - 08/21/11 05:32 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Clow Abhorred Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 13
 Quote:
What a white knight, someone pass this guy a fresh good guy badge from the box.

Are you aware if animals stopped eating other animals, the entire world would go extinct within a few months? This sort of special pleading based on RHP morality makes me laugh.


i already said i am not against killing animals in their own natural environment. only against consuming their meat in stores. your ignorant point of view is pathetic and disappointing. and if i'd agree with RHP i wouldn't have been here, believe me. not that i need to justify to you. you're just another ignorant creature of society.

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#58426 - 08/21/11 06:23 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Tell me, what is the natural environment of the current cow, or pig or chicken?

You prefer we all arm ourselves and go to the woods shoot our game? How long would it take before those woods would be empty?

Or should we all quit eating meat and become vegans? How many animals are you willing to sacrifice each year to provide us the required vegetables? Because that would actually cost more animals than continuing as we do today.

D.

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#58461 - 08/22/11 06:31 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
Clow Abhorred Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/21/11
Posts: 13
I am not a big expert on what the natural environment of the cow, pig or chicken is. but i DO know it is NOT in cages. Did you know that chickens have their beaks and nails cut off? This is absolutely unnatural. and the pigs - teeth are uprooted so they won't eat each other. Regardless that the two live in small confided cages. I don't know much about their natural environment, but I do know that it is not that.

What you are saying is completely incorrect, and I could tell you why, but it such a long and philosophical subject. Shortly - Humans are responsible for the increase of cattle population. Humans are also responsible for a massive pollution caused due to that. That accumulates to a much higher cost.
We grow are own vegetables, so I really don't see any danger of sacrificing animals to provide ourselves with vegetables.

if you really want to know more about the subject - please watch the movie "Earthlings" (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142).


And also I'd like to comment about LHP and RHP morality. I consider myself as a LHP ideologist. I do believe in individualism, self-control morality. I think all gods are creations of humans, therefore i do not believe in god/gods or any outer idea. I do believe the Prince Of Darkness is an archetype to the principle of self consciousness and I do perform rituals and learning about black magic. And no, I do not have RHP moralities and I don't even understand where did you get that idea, maybe lack of self expression in English did the work.

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#58462 - 08/22/11 07:48 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Typical vegan: Thinks everyone involved in a debate is completely ignorant of how slaughterhouses operate and think a couple of videos will "change our minds" about eating meat.

The modern breeds of cow (Holstein, dairy, angus, etc)do not exist in nature, they were specifically bred for their various traits to satisfy human needs. The closest relation is the buffalo. Releasing them into the wild would be like just letting your pet Labrador retriever loose in the woods. He'd be confused, hungry, and most likely suffer from the elements if unable to find a human settlement to scrounge from. He'd figure it out eventually, but it certainly wouldn't be a pleasant experience for an animal used to having its needs met by humans.

Same with chickens, they were originally bred from the Red Ground Fowl but the chicken as we know it does not exist in the wild. We have bred the smarts right out of them, making chickens some of the dumbest creatures on earth.

I've said before--veganism isn't doing a damned thing to change the way animals are slaughtered. Not consuming a product, when there is already a high demand for it, has zero effect. Meat-eating omnivores are some of the most vocal in pushing for better conditions for animals, when all of the PETA card-carrying members can do is dress up like furries and cover hot chicks in fake blood and put them in a plastic-wrapped styrofoam tray on the sidewalk.

Want to see how chickens are slaughtered at family farms? You couldn't ask for a more humane treatment:

How to slaughter a chicken at Zenger Farm, Portland OR

Same with a cow. Does it look stressed or terrified to you?

Cow slaughter in UK

Or at one of the largest meat processing plants in the US, Cargill:

Lisa Ling at Cargill

We want to be supporting these sorts of farms and slaughterhouses because they're doing it right. Not the ones who drag half-dead animals around the mud with a forklift, cauterize the tails of piglets without anesthesia, or let dead chickens lie next to healthy ones in battery cages.

Like places such as this Iowa pig slaughterhouse, found abusing their pigs and is currently under investigation. They supply big chains such as Costco and the brand Smithfield, and until this is cleared up I will buy my pork elsewhere.
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#58463 - 08/22/11 09:14 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Common sense. I hear a lot of people saying that "Killing an animal for its meat is ok as long as you kill it in its natural habitat." Are they INSANE? Now, if you live in an area where 20 people live, and those 20 people go out on the open range and find 20 cows to kill, that might be remotely possible, although probably not very efficient.

Where are these populations going to find sufficient quantities in their natural habitat? (randomly chosen... there are larger)

Moscow: 11, 551, 930
Mexico City: 8,873,017
New York City: 8,175, 133
London: 7,753,600
Riyadh: 5,188,286

The list goes on and on and on. Without efficient, well planned and large processing centers to deliver meats and produce to the world's population centers, malnutrition and starvation becomes a fact in short order. I can't thing of a more nightmarish situation than the population of Los Angeles (3,792,621) wandering out into the Hollywood Hills to kill something for dinner. In short order, the only thing to eat would indeed be each other.
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#58466 - 08/22/11 09:49 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Jake999]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Well, since half of LA's population seems to be vegetarian, the meat-eating omnivorous folk would have tasty tofu-fed humans to stalk and kill.

The whole premise of reverting back to the hunter-gatherer lifestyle is a fantasy of both vegetarians and meat-eating omnivores alike. Unless you live in a rural area and can regularly raise/kill your own food, I guess you're shit out of luck. Should city-dwellers be forced to go vegan? LOL I live in suburbia, and the only real farms nearby are at least a two-hour drive away. The cost (and pollution) of gas to get there and back doesn't really offset buying from a small farm vs. getting it from the store. At some point I would really like to have a few chickens in the backyard so I can ensure that they're eating a proper omnivorous diet and have tasty eggs.

Another thing that always cracks me up, is the numbers vegetarians cite when they assert "the cost of raising and transporting meat is bad for the environment". Well, so does having to ship those exotic fruits from Brazil (how else can you get bananas in February?), canned lentils, Morningstar black bean burger patties and all of the other food that vegetarians have to eat in order to stay healthy. If you're not a vegetarian locavore, then you're contributing to global pollution as much as the next person.
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#58468 - 08/22/11 10:10 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Most vegan ideas are vague and completely disregarding reality.

If we'd all stop eating meat and became vegan, we'll run into problems because there is not enough land available to farm crop at such a level. Not all land is good for farming, something which they easily forget. So we might have to make the decision to level some woods to gain farmland.

Also farming crop at such a level has a high cost in animal life. Yes, farming crop kills animals too. Birds, small mammals... etc. So the real question is; is the life of a mouse or bird worth less than the life of a cow? It is estimated that a full change to the vegan diet has a higher death toll than what we do now but the killing is, of course, less visible.

So unless we learn to live of thin air and stand still at one spot our whole lives, we will inevitable kill other lifeforms.

For something to live, something else has to die. C'est la vie.

D.

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#58469 - 08/22/11 10:18 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Clow Abhorred]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Clow Abhorred
 Quote:
What a white knight, someone pass this guy a fresh good guy badge from the box.

Are you aware if animals stopped eating other animals, the entire world would go extinct within a few months? This sort of special pleading based on RHP morality makes me laugh.


i already said i am not against killing animals in their own natural environment. only against consuming their meat in stores. your ignorant point of view is pathetic and disappointing. and if i'd agree with RHP i wouldn't have been here, believe me. not that i need to justify to you. you're just another ignorant creature of society.


Weak sauce dude, weak sauce. So because we purchase it from a store rather than kill it ourselves that somehow changes the moral underpinnings?(which are by definition a RHP construct)

Just because you like the devils suit doesn't mean you undertaking his praxis. Where would you like me to pin your badge?
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#58473 - 08/22/11 12:20 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
when7iseleven Offline
member


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 200
Loc: High Peak, UK
Hi Diavalo

"If we'd all stop eating meat and became vegan, we'll run into problems because there is not enough land available to farm crop at such a level. Not all land is good for farming, something which they easily forget. So we might have to make the decision to level some woods to gain farmland."

Plainly wrong I'm afraid; firstly the rainforest that is being felled is being so in the main to grow palm oil & soya bean, the majority of which is used to make animal feed. Secondly it takes up to two & a half times more land to make the same calorific value from animal protein than it does from vegetable protein.

If the population keeps growing as it is & we are to feed everyone on the planet then I'm afraid eventually the only way will be vegetarianism; or some laboratary produced gunge out of a tube.

Regards

W

PS.........personally I don't eat meat or fish but won't wear anything other than leather shoes.........I know



Edited by when7iseleven (08/22/11 12:21 PM)
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#58474 - 08/22/11 12:27 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: when7iseleven]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Last I checked there wasn't any rain forest around where I live and I assume there is none in the UK either.

So any new farm land here comes at the expense of woods or other nature areas.

D.

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#58476 - 08/22/11 02:05 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: when7iseleven]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:
Secondly it takes up to two & a half times more land to make the same calorific value from animal protein than it does from vegetable protein.


What?

4oz. serving of firm tofu: 94 calories
4oz. serving of ground beef: 331 calories
4oz. serving of cheese: 320 calories

You've got it backwards, it would take 4x as much soybean crop to produce the same amount of calories you could get from a cow, not to mention its many byproducts such as cheese and milk.

PS: The only reason soy is eaten in such large quantities today is because it's convenient to harvest for human consumption since there is so much of it grown for cattle feed, same as corn. Soy is also increasingly used as a biofuel, same as corn for ethanol. And since neither ethanol or soy diesel is as efficient as regular ol' petroleum, more has to be used to achieve the same results, ie gas mileage.

Why can't vegetarians simply be honest and say they don't eat meat because they're squeamish, instead of trying to come up with all of these "noble" justifications which they seem to pull out of their asses? Every statistic I hear about the impact of a veg diet differs depending upon which environmentalist's blog they got it from.
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#58477 - 08/22/11 02:14 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: when7iseleven]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
Nem, I think his point was that it takes more land to source meat than it does to source vegetables (because it takes a lot to feed the animals).

 Originally Posted By: when7iseleven
If the population keeps growing as it is & we are to feed everyone on the planet then I'm afraid eventually the only way will be vegetarianism; or some laboratary produced gunge out of a tube.


Not so. You overlook a vast replenishable resource that you yourself have mentioned: the population. Americans could be the new kobe beef

"Soylent Green is ..." ah, you know the rest. (Don't you?)


 Originally Posted By: when7iseleven
PS.........personally I don't eat meat or fish but won't wear anything other than leather shoes.........I know


Situational ethics, my favorite kind of entertainment
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#58478 - 08/22/11 02:19 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Autodidact]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
It'd take a lot to feed humans too, if that's all they ate. Cattle are predominantly pasture-raised, meaning they eat grass until they're sent off to be "finished". Finishing cattle takes about 200 days, and they're fed nothing but a fattening, high-protein diet of corn, soy and grains. So really, you can only count those 200 days as actual grain consumption in raising cattle. The majority of their lives is spent eating non-arable grass land. Which, circling around to Diavolo's point, is not suited for raising crops.
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#58481 - 08/22/11 02:42 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Not only that, agriculture also requires an awful lot of water which poses yet another problem when completely switching to it.

But besides all this, what is actually a valid argument to not eat meat? If you ask me, there are only two; either you don't like the taste or you can't digest the meat. All other arguments are actually silly arguments.

If you don't eat meat because animals have to die for it, you have to stop buying anything non-essential too. You can't use the one as a "moral" argument and neglect the others. Everything we buy comes at the expense of lives, animals or humans. But still, you'll find many vegans roleplaying the Righteous One because they don't eat meat but at the same time owning a house filled with trivial non-essential shit that causes bloodshed too. But I guess it's hard to follow a principle all the way.

So what do we get? A lot of folks banging their chest because they are so doing the "right" thing while remaining very silent about the fact they're doing the "wrong" thing too.

D.

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#58482 - 08/22/11 02:46 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Nemesis]
Managor Offline
member


Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 110
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
It'd take a lot to feed humans too, if that's all they ate. Cattle are predominantly pasture-raised, meaning they eat grass until they're sent off to be "finished". Finishing cattle takes about 200 days, and they're fed nothing but a fattening, high-protein diet of corn, soy and grains. So really, you can only count those 200 days as actual grain consumption in raising cattle. The majority of their lives is spent eating non-arable grass land. Which, circling around to Diavolo's point, is not suited for raising crops.


The daily diet recommended for fattening up a two year old beef steer includes 25 pounds of corn or sorghum silage, four pounds of red clover hay, 14 pounds of corn or ground grain sorghum and a pound and a quarter of linseed meal or cottonseed meal.

The amount of milk and butterfat produced each year by a cow can be increased by a proper diet. The average dairy cow eats three pounds of silage and one pound of hay each day for every 100 pounds of its body weight. Dairy cows also receive one pound of grain or other concentrated feed for every four to six pounds of milk they give.


Don't think we eat 25 pounds of corn a day though(Not adding in the rest as that doesn't seem like something we would eat..or should eat...)

That's 5000 pounds of corn in 200 days alone--PER BEEF STEER

Now personally, veganism to me is dumb. I love my beef(and I don't like salad that much), but that's a shit load of corn. It takes an average of 6 months to grow feed corn. Now 5000 pounds of regular corn can feed a lot of people. However, protein value would drop like a brick turd on a hot summer day.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Not only that, agriculture also requires an awful lot of water which poses yet another problem when completely switching to it.

But besides all this, what is actually a valid argument to not eat meat? If you ask me, there are only two; either you don't like the taste or you can't digest the meat. All other arguments are actually silly arguments.

If you don't eat meat because animals have to die for it, you have to stop buying anything non-essential too. You can't use the one as a "moral" argument and neglect the others. Everything we buy comes at the expense of lives, animals or humans. But still, you'll find many vegans roleplaying the Righteous One because they don't eat meat but at the same time owning a house filled with trivial non-essential shit that causes bloodshed too. But I guess it's hard to follow a principle all the way.

So what do we get? A lot of folks banging their chest because they are so doing the "right" thing while remaining very silent about the fact they're doing the "wrong" thing too.

D.



Even gummy bears have cow fat in them.
-Just a random fact about your statement.


Edited by Managor (08/22/11 02:59 PM)

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#58486 - 08/22/11 08:34 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Diavolo]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Not only that, agriculture also requires an awful lot of water which poses yet another problem when completely switching to it.


Yeah, but you need that anyway, to feed the cows, even if just to "finish" them.

I'm sticking with my original idea - ban the Haber-Bosch process, move to organic agriculture, and eat ourselves down to a sustainable population.

"Honey, it's long pig for dinner tonight!"
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#67312 - 06/15/12 10:43 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Autodidact]
Woodey Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 16
I have yet to eat anything Vegan that I would want to try again. There have been a couple of dishes that I thought were alright, but nothing to make me yearn for more.

Face it, nothing can compare to the smell of seared animal flesh, gets my juices flowing every time.
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#67345 - 06/16/12 08:46 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Woodey]
FemaleSatan Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 556
Loc: The Dirty South
I am primarily vegetarian. I eat meat but it's a rarity anymore.

Why rare? I never really thought about where meat comes from until I started hunting and cleaning my own game. Seeing the blood, etc associated with eating meat changed my appetite, changed the way I view meat in general.

Once you actually have the literal blood on your hands involved with actually killing a living thing (even if it's just an animal) do you 'get' what you are eating. Something that bleeds, something that feels pain, something that may feel emotions, etc.

Ever since I started hunting meat and the thought of eating it makes me slightly nauseous.

Broccoli doesn't bleed. Lettuce doesn't have eyes that stare at you. Beans don't have bladders you can accidentally pop while cleaning them and smell that smell.

I think if more people hunted, the general view of meat would be less cavalier.


Edited by FemaleSatan (06/16/12 08:48 PM)
Edit Reason: damn phone ie, typos
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#67362 - 06/17/12 02:10 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: FemaleSatan]
Stick Offline
member


Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 157
Loc: Benelux
although getting getting an hunting license is hard were I live, I love to do so.
There are others options to to get your meat, deer is an common roadkill over here, and mostly only head injury occurs.
It is true, gutting game is not a pleasant sight and having a strong stomach comes handy when you sniffing the warm blood and other juices.
But I feel proud when I drive back at my home with a dove, deer or large pike in my backpack, and the satisfaction really kicks in when eating and tasting the strong aroma.
Does not taste like chicken.
Hunting did make me start eating meat again.

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#67383 - 06/18/12 12:50 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Stick]
REDRUM666 Offline
banned
stranger


Registered: 06/04/12
Posts: 14
Loc: Beltrami County, USA
Yes, being a vegan can kill you. Just like any diet one must have balance. The fibers of your being need the right building blocks or the temple will crumble. Man has been eating meat for as long as mankind has been a member of the food chain.

Man needs to kill and dominate it is in your very DNA. Even the book Might is Right details this very well. It has always been about gold and hot woman. Gold and woman are enhanced with charred meat and alcohol hands down.

If you just eat that plant crap you will not get enough protein and your hair will fall out. And if you continue death is sure to come knocking. I broke up with a really pretty girl in high-school because she became a vegan. Not that there is anything wrong with eating what you enjoy, but she got ugly and her did start falling out.

Hell why not become like those idiot who do not eat anything because of some lying yogi from India. He claims to have not eaten for like 50yrs or some crap. I wasn't paying attention when my mom was telling me about him because she is into all that New Age crap. But I did see a news story about people who have gone on this no food diet detailed by some filthy hippy and have died: Go figure right?

Vegan diets can be as dangerous as heroin or crack diets some be careful. Hey maybe I should write a book called The South Compton Freebase Diet. To the archives!

REDRUM.
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#67438 - 06/19/12 02:58 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: REDRUM666]
Erich Zann Offline
member


Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 193
Loc: Germany
Or maybe you should start to inform yourself about veganism before making statements about hairs falling out and people losing their life...

Eating only "that plant crap" won't harm you if you do it right. There are loads of vegetarians and vegans out there who practiced that way of eating for years - and wow, they're neither getting ugly, nor do they lose their hair and on top they seem pretty alive too.

I myself am a vegetarian for about 8 years now, lived vegan for half a year some time ago just to try it (I stopped back then because one basic product for vegan cooking wasn't produced anymore and furthermore after a while the taste wasn't my kind of thing any longer). And I have to tell you: I'm neither the pale small guy with a scabby bald head, nor am I starting every sentence with "Listen carefully, for these could be my last words!".
I did not eat any kind of meat, fish, poultry or basically anything that is able to shit for nearly a decade and I'm still waiting for the bad results to come.

Bryan Adams, Anthony Kiedis, Jared Leto, Moby, Phil Collins, Serj Tankian, Demi Moore, Joaquin Phoenix, Pamela Anderson, Toby Maguire, Weird Al Yankovic - all of those well known persons, and lots more, are vegetarians or vegans. Especially the musicians often have long and hard tours to do - do you think they could make it if their way of living was as deadly as you think it is?

I'm not one of those guys who try to convince everybody that eating meat was wrong. Actually, I don't give a single fuck what you eat as long as you don't expect me to eat it too. But these "we have to eat meat", "our DNA wants it", "not eating meat will kill you"-arguments are simply outdated and utter crap. They were true several hundreds or thousands of years ago, when humans really had to fight for their life everyday.
In nowadays living conditions where nearly everything is available on demand and the danger of being attacked by a wild animal outside of your house is rather small, it really doesn't matter anymore, as long as you know how to get what your body needs.

@ FemaleSatan: Your attitude is a pretty good one in my opinion. Those who hunt their own food at least know what it takes until you get the steak on your table. It's interesting how lots of people shiver when they see how a cow or pig is killed at a farm -even through the comforting distance of television- but then put the piles of sausages on their plate some minutes later - hey, maybe they grew on trees...


Edited by Erich Zann (06/19/12 03:09 PM)
Edit Reason: some additions
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#67528 - 06/20/12 10:00 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Cassandra Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 83
Loc: Temple, Texas
I am not a vegan but I've read a lot of recipe books and the like for the raw foodie lifestyle. There are other supplements and whatnot--such as apple cider vinegar and nutritional yeast (which is a full protein that includes B vitamins)--where vegans can get their protein.

What is a protein? It is simply a chain of amino acids held together by peptide bonds. It is, from what I've read, not necessary to get all your essential amino acids in one meal--they can get collected for the body to use through spaced-out meals over the course of a few days. Plants, fruits, veggies all contain varying amounts of amino acids (and so do nuts), so the vegan could get complete nutrition through a varied diet that also included some kind of nutritional supplement.

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#67627 - 06/22/12 08:14 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Cassandra]
Woodey Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 16
@Cassandra Legumes such as lentils and beans are also excellent ways for a vegan/vegetarian to get b vitamins and protein. I agree that every meal does not need to be packed with protein or complete proteins for that matter. Proteins are extremely important to the body, but one can maintain a healthy body via the non-animal diet.
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#68330 - 07/04/12 04:43 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Woodey]
Robert Paulson Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 99
Loc: Montana, America
Has anyone given thought to plants and what they endure? On Valentine's Day men give women flowers. Those are plant genitals! Farmers take plants' babies (seeds), bury them in the ground, cover them with a mixture of dirt and excrement, and then drown them under water. When the children grow to a reasonable height, they are "harvested", just a fancy word for slaughtered. These plants are ripped from their homes (the ground), placed in containers with no room to breathe, and chopped into little bits. Plants are life forms, too! I am glad that one member mentioned the song by Tool that talks about the carrot holocaust. It really puts things into perspective.

PETA members show people videos in which cows are dropped from hooks into pens. How would PETA members respond to videos showing bales of hay being thrown into piles? The PETA videos show livestock being teased and mistreated. How about radishes, which are sliced into rose-petal shapes? I've never seen a carnivore try to guilt-trip a vegan. Food guilt is a path to mind-controland part of the Right Hand Path lifestyle. Free your stomachs and your minds will follow.
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Satan watches all of us and smiles as some do his bidding. - Jeff Hanneman (1983)

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#68341 - 07/05/12 01:49 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Robert Paulson]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
Thanks for great post! I had once curious situation. I was in train and one scrawny, bony girl sited in front of me and I was in hunger, but my friends, who have lovely gardens gave me some carrots - I started to eat and suddenly girl cried loudly - I'm killer and everyone in the train was in shock. I asked - please explain - she told I killed carrots!... I didn't understand and then she said - she ir radical vegan, real or true fruitarian and eat only what is fallen and never kill plants.

This girl was extreme example, but many RHP walkers in their practical life and believes are sometimes more stupid than adherents of Christianity or Muslims...
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#68358 - 07/05/12 01:33 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Robert Paulson]
Erich Zann Offline
member


Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 193
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Robert Paulson
I've never seen a carnivore try to guilt-trip a vegan.


Nope, but there are a hell lot of carnivores who brag about how manly and necessary meat is and that vegans, vegetarians or basically anybody who refuses to eat everything you put under his nose is a weak and weird pussy.
This is just the same - the one side wants to convince you that eating meat is bad and the others want to convince you that not eating meat is bad. Both are annoying as fuck.

And by the way: Just beacause there is the possibility that plants experience similar feelings (if they can at all) as animals do when being cut off/killed is no reason to say "nah, just fuck it" if you used to live without meat.

 Quote:
Food guilt is a path to mind-controland part of the Right Hand Path lifestyle. Free your stomachs and your minds will follow.


Why is it mind control if you think about what you eat and then decide to stop eating certain things after you made up your mind? And what does this have to do with the RHP?
And defining the freedom of ones mind by his way of eating is simply bullshit. Quite the contrary, if somebody gives up their own credo just because someone else doesn't think it's good, that would be mind control or weakness.
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The Pledge of Allegiance does not end with "Hail Satan!".

-Bart Simpson

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#68496 - 07/07/12 08:43 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Erich Zann]
Robert Paulson Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 99
Loc: Montana, America
Food control as mind control is the idea that a church or other group reminds its members just how much it runs their lives while they are eating. During meal time or while purchasing food, people will contemplate what they are allowed and not allowed to eat.
_________________________
Satan watches all of us and smiles as some do his bidding. - Jeff Hanneman (1983)

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#68529 - 07/08/12 10:17 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Robert Paulson]
Erich Zann Offline
member


Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 193
Loc: Germany
In that case you have to distinguish between people who live/eat after special rules because any kind of organization told them to do and those who live that way because of their own, personal decision. The first ones, which was never a question, can indeed be called controlled, but the second group just lives how it wants to.
_________________________
The Pledge of Allegiance does not end with "Hail Satan!".

-Bart Simpson

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#68581 - 07/09/12 07:08 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Robert Paulson]
when7iseleven Offline
member


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 200
Loc: High Peak, UK

If you want to see food control in action then go & spend a few hours loitering near the meat aisle of your local supermarket; super cheap tastless food for the masses, no taste but lots of protein based calorise..........ooooh yummy! Nothing better to stupify the mind & at least they won't have to think about what they eat.
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#68609 - 07/09/12 05:20 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: when7iseleven]
Robert Paulson Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 99
Loc: Montana, America
Erich Zann said,
"In that case you have to distinguish between people who live/eat after special rules because any kind of organization told them to do and those who live that way because of their own, personal decision. The first ones, which was never a question, can indeed be called controlled, but the second group just lives how it wants to."

I see your point, Herr Zann. I was thinking along the lines of Moslems and Orthodox Jews who limit their intake for bizarre reasons. Those would fall into your first group. The second group does so for two reasons: 1. They receive faulty information about food or delude themselves into thinking that their new diet makes them more moral than most people 2. They really just want to eat more healthily.

For the ones seeking health, I see the idea behind what they are doing. The ex-vegan who made that webpage came to the conclusion that his diet was insufficient so he upgraded to include meat. He was sensible, so I give him credit. Thank-you, Herr Zann, for encouraging me to make that distinction. A good forum encourages people to think and rethink their positions. That's what I like about The 600 Club.
_________________________
Satan watches all of us and smiles as some do his bidding. - Jeff Hanneman (1983)

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#68652 - 07/10/12 12:49 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Robert Paulson]
Erich Zann Offline
member


Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 193
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Robert Paulson
I see your point, Herr Zann. I was thinking along the lines of Moslems and Orthodox Jews who limit their intake for bizarre reasons. Those would fall into your first group.


Exactly, but still I have no problem with that group if they allow me to do as I wish. If they're happy with the way they eat, then, by all means, let them go on.

 Originally Posted By: Robert Paulson
The second group does so for two reasons: 1. They receive faulty information about food or delude themselves into thinking that their new diet makes them more moral than most people 2. They really just want to eat more healthily.


Even here I wouldn't only say that there's just black and white. I can only speak about myself here, but I personally chose not to eat meat anymore because I simply know how the meat on my plate was raised and killed and I know that it's not a nice thing to watch. Together with my deep respect for animals of all kind I simply don't want to eat them as long as I don't need their meat to survive. Of course, if I end up in a deserted area fighting for my life someday I'd eat anything I could get - but as long as this doesn't happen, my interest in not supporting the killing of animals through consuming meat prevails.
Still I would never think of myself being more moral than others - otherwise I'd have to look down on every carnivore out there. And the health aspect you mentioned is just a part of my attitude. It's like it is with everything: You can rarely divide something into A and B.
_________________________
The Pledge of Allegiance does not end with "Hail Satan!".

-Bart Simpson

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#68654 - 07/10/12 01:55 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Erich Zann]
Latvian Offline
member


Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: Erich Zann
...Even here I wouldn't only say that there's just black and white. I can only speak about myself here, but I personally chose not to eat meat anymore...
Perfect – we, Satanists are in process to get rid of black and white ideology!

I and my wife decided not to eat meat once, because usually meat in supermarkets are full of hormones and antibiotics etc. (Maybe it's not so in Germany or in USA), but we sometimes got cheap meet from Belgium, Poland, even from China and You can’t be sure is it really from Latvia or native ones... and even our big farmers now use a lot of growing hormones and prophylactically used antibiotics and don’t care for welfare of animals – they are so many in so small rooms… My wife didn’t eat meat for 1 month and I survived for 3 month and then we understood - we like it and our organisms have need for it, even our children like it… and now we buy meat by small farmers near my countryside house - I see how lovely are animals and how good (naturally) they care for them and they kill them by themselves or sometimes I help them... I eat meat and I never fear to kill animal for food.

You don't eat and don't kill - it's good decision, because sometimes I found strange - some people eat meat, but never dare to kill for food... OK, It's just my thoughts!
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#68707 - 07/11/12 11:13 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Prion Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 26
Interesting thread.

Having followed a strict vegan diet for the past 12 years, I know first hand the dangers involved. Of course, I take dietary supplements to ensure I have an adequate intake of nutrients. Fact is, though, it may not work for you - but it works for me.

Diet, to me, is as personal as sexuality. So I sure won't be evangelizing veganism or pushing high-and-mighty moral precepts upon my meat-eating brethren. If I do, you are more than welcome to remove my front teeth. In my world, what I take into my body is as personal as who I choose to fuck. I abstain from alcohol completely too. While some of this is on health grounds, some on just how good it makes me feel and its contribution to my well-being - much of it is a good old sense of rebellion against the status quo. That is enjoyable too at times to indulge in.

Of course, while evangelical vegetarians or vegans are every bit as irritating as the religious kind, those evangelising a meat-eating diet are no less irritating. Even for people who do eat meat, from the feedback I got from some.

Remember, you are quite literally what you eat, so the freedom of choice here is quite simply one of the most existential experiences a human being can have.

Thus, I give a hearty "fuck you" to anyone who wants to prescribe what other people should or shouldn't eat. At the end of the day, my goal with food is the same as the meat-eaters: To feel good and to exercise my own choices. Veganism does that for me. As for you - make your own mind up and use your own brain. ;\)

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#68724 - 07/12/12 04:12 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Prion]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
 Originally Posted By: Prion
... Diet, to me, is as personal as sexuality. So I sure won't be evangelizing veganism or pushing high-and-mighty moral precepts upon my meat-eating brethren... Thus, I give a hearty "fuck you" to anyone who wants to prescribe what other people should or shouldn't eat. At the end of the day, my goal with food is the same as the meat-eaters: To feel good and to exercise my own choices...
Sometimes outsiders to Satanism don’t understand true tolerance and acceptance in our community. We are so different, but true and find the best way what fits for us personally and encourage each other to be honest to themselves! I like the way You put Your thoughts. Soon I will copy some good posts or part of posts in my aphorisms and dictums collection…

Of course I am true meat lover and for generations my ancestors have eaten meat and fishes and we lived good life by great health. The most favorite for me, my wife are 100% bacon or fat (German word is Speck and Latvian word speķis and Russian is сала ). I’m not sure – I wrote right in English, I think white fatty part of pig's meat. It’s typical old Latvian and particularly my family breakfast – we are like addicts to eggs and Speck , which is most common and favorite breakfast at home for my family. My kids and wife always are glad, when I make eggs with bacon… and in weekends we do shashlik, stake on open fire – I’m going to stop, because already I start to dream about it!
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#68792 - 07/12/12 07:39 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Latvian]
Robert Paulson Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 99
Loc: Montana, America
I see there are a few vegans and vegetarians on this site that eat that way just for a healthier lifestyle. I see your points and choose to respect our differences. Erich Zann and Prion made valid statements for why they chose their diets. They also did so in a way that did not attempt to make others feel guilty. That is a very cool way to go about making a statement. I work with an anesthesiologist who eats mostly vegetables and looks many years younger than his true age. He has inspired me to eat more vegetables and less meat and has done so without preaching or getting onto a soap box about his diet. I wish more people could be sensible about their ideologies but sadly the world seems not to be that way. Still, I have read so many intelligent posts in this website so I feel I am in the right place amongst good people. The more healthy food I eat, the less I resemble my avatar, ha ha ha!
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Satan watches all of us and smiles as some do his bidding. - Jeff Hanneman (1983)

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#68797 - 07/12/12 07:52 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Robert Paulson]
Latvian Offline
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Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 475
Loc: EU, Latvia, Riga (old town)
Maybe me inspired my grandad, who took part in two world wars, where 3 years in death camps and didn't got healthy food, but he lived in good health until age 107! I don't care so much about visual look - I think sometimes very healthy thinks after some times can be found very unhealthy and different.

In my country young girls avoid any fat and live on fruits and vegetabls - results, they can not give birth for children etc... My grandad who lived 107 had 7 children, youngest is my dad, who is more than 70 and work 8 hours in workdays and had all natural tooth in his mouth, I don't know - has he ever been sick - he drink milk, eat meat with some vegetables and fruits. He as my grandad especialy likes to eat Speck (In my native - cūkgaļas speķis) and enjoy the life in full beauty!

Everyone can look on food how he/she want... Vegetarians don't investigate high mortality and short lifespan of people in Bangladesh, India, Bhutan, Nepal even Tibet and norhwest Mjanma, who mostly are vegetarians... We north people historicaly eat meat and survive in hardest weather and harsh environment! Of course it's just my thoughts!


Edited by Latvian (07/12/12 07:57 PM)
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#70581 - 08/30/12 06:05 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Latvian]
Le Deluge Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
I do know people that can handle "veganism" effectively. I am certainly not one of those people. At minimum, I need to eat fish for the protein and essential vitamins. In terms of the history of the human race, we have been omnivores. I can certainly limit the meat intake, but I cannot eliminate it and maintain good health. I would be more for avoiding artificial additions and (possibly) GMOs. I'm still researching that issue with mixed results. I do eat relatively healthy though. I can also understand the issue of proselytizing amongst some vegans. It is futile and often annoying. It won't change anyone's mind.
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#70582 - 08/30/12 07:08 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Le Deluge]
Naama Offline
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Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 318
Loc: NewYork
I am not a vegetarian or a vegan... I would prefar "Steak tartar" rather than "well done", for example.
But I do, regret, that I'm not a vegan, because I believe that staying away from eating "corpses" is good for the occult workings.

Anyway, when other people criticize veganism bringing up "hedonistic" reasons - I must agree. They are right. Animals are there to be used by humans.

But when critics of veganism bring out the "health" reasons...
I do not agree with such interpretation.
We, humans, are not living our lives to grow big and healthy like pigs to be slaughtered. We are here to be enDarkened. that might obviously take away from your "perfect blood test result".
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#70584 - 08/31/12 12:05 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Naama]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"I believe that staying away from eating "corpses" is good for the occult workings."

Why?


"We, humans, are not living our lives to grow big and healthy like pigs to be slaughtered"

The military industrial complex of most nations might disagree with this.


"We are here to be enDarkened"

What do you mean by this?

M

_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#70585 - 08/31/12 12:32 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Morgan]
Naama Offline
member


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 318
Loc: NewYork
1) Because that particular animal can have a bad karma... (no, I'm not trying to talk "new age" concepts here...)
Let's take pets as an example... we (people) create a connection only with certain animals (not with every one of them)...
Yet people tend to eat anything from the shelf of a supermarket...
Another reason is: a vegan diet produces a certain half-starving state perfect for getting somewhat high without using chemical substances; which is good for somebody who is involved with studying and practicing of the occult...

2) I always thought that Satanism (or LHP) makes a person to be somewhat distant (ideally) from the rest of society...

3) To experience some periods or stats of revelation.... Connection with Dark Realms. It happens sometimes... Once in a while.
Anyway, those people who are very conscious about their own health and think absolutey rational('bout things like that) seem very suspicious...
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#70589 - 08/31/12 04:00 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Naama]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Animals having bad karma? What a load of shit is that?

First of all, in relation to the concept of karma, which is a load of shit too, animals lack choice and in that, they hardly qualify for bad or good karma. So if animals can have bad karma; tomatoes, carrots and your breakfast cereal should be able to have bad karma too. Hell, the bacteria in my stomach might be collecting bad karma right now. I hope I won't reincarnate as some violent diarrhea.

Second; vegans, unless they grow their stuff themselves and even then, eat the same shit as everyone else, chemicals included. That bio label does not mean; we magically removed all chemicals. More often than not it means; you suckers just pay more for the same old shit.

Three; Satanists might be somewhat distant from the rest of society but not necessarily distant of reality or rationality.

Also, after the Age of Enlightenment, being called Endarkened is no longer considered a compliment.

D.

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#70591 - 08/31/12 05:39 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Naama]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"that particular animal can have a bad karma."

It's an animal, new age karma bullshit is irrelevant. Its bred to be food. Unless you own a farm, fuck dead turkeys, or go hunting, you don't connect with your food.

You don't eat your pets,unless there is no food and you are hungry. Then again cat and dog is on the chinese menu.

"vegan diet produces a certain half-starving state perfect for getting somewhat high without using chemical substances;"

Really,can you provide any links for this high state?

"which is good for somebody who is involved with studying and practicing of the occult..."

You need to be aware when studying anything, not high.

"I always thought that Satanism (or LHP) makes a person to be somewhat distant (ideally) from the rest of society..."

Satanist usually live in the real world and understand how it works. In this modern world, it is highly problematic to just go live in a cave.

"To experience some periods or stats of revelation.... Connection with Dark Realms. It happens sometimes... Once in a while."

Is this like World of Warcraft shit? Are you talking about astral travel or just bad dreams after not eating enough protein?

"Anyway, those people who are very conscious about their own health and think absolutey rational('bout things like that) seem very suspicious... "

So, if you take care of yourself, and watch what you eat, that's a bad thing?

M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#70592 - 08/31/12 08:38 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Naama]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
active member


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: Naama
1) Because that particular animal can have a bad karma...


Here's the thing, Naama, there is no BAD karma. It's impossible. It'd be like BAD gravity.

All sentient beings are bound by karmic laws, but this means what exactly? Just that when such a being acts, other beings will REact accordingly. Newton's 3rd Law.

Your point would've been made much better without hula-hoops. Much of what we ingest is toxic-toxic. Chemicals pumped into a dead animal who was likely fed more severe chemicals is now MEAT, yummy. Unrelated story: Cancer is on the rise.

Click me, and turn up the volume.

JK
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#70595 - 08/31/12 04:24 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Jason King]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
Chemicals is such a big word. Nothing saying really. There's more chemicals in my body than on my plate.. even more toxic for that matter. Biochemistry and toxicology is freaky stuff.

And what most think are chemicals are even natural products also found in fruit. Rarely I've seen the local organic nutjob look up (R)-3,4-dihydroxy-5-((S)- 1,2-dihydroxyethyl)furan-2(5H)-one also known as L-ascorbic acid or better known as vitamine C. On food packaging mostly reffered to as E"numberICan'tRemember".

When speaking chemicals you'll have to be more precise..
There's even the problem of chemicals whom are toxic to animals but not to us...oh you silly digestion system...or the other way round.

Going the way of veganism is possible without looking like a skeleton. I only find it futile when living in a society where there's a wider diversity of energy sources to keep the body in shape. Unless, like a friend of mine, you're just tired of eating meat of have worked in a butchery the better part of your life.

 Quote:
It's impossible. It'd be like BAD gravity.

Gravity is bad.. when drunk...and having to climb stairs.. while the earth doesn't stop being swirly.
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#70596 - 08/31/12 05:20 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dimitri]
Naama Offline
member


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 318
Loc: NewYork
Sorry everyone... Must clarify...
Actually I'm not very conscious about "health" issue and preserving good health...
By "chemicals" in the previous post I meant "drugs".
So, what I meant in the previous post is that veganism is a way to get somewhat high without using narcotics/drugs. Consuming only fruit of Earth... and not half-rotten corpses of the animals... which can be even ill... and customer does not realize that that during the purchase...
Veganism is good for the occult, I don't have any prooflink for it, but I got this experience from some other occultists... practicing occultists. And my own experience does proove it too...
It (if I would become a vegan) does not necessarily put me together with the tree huggers and granola crunch people. I am still an LHP follower... but veganism stems from different reasons here...

Now, its personal: there is still something repulsive about eating the flesh... every time I have a chance - I buy kosher meat from abrahamists religious motherfuckers because they drain the blood out... less gross...


Edited by Naama (08/31/12 05:29 PM)
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#70614 - 09/02/12 04:19 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Naama]
felixgarnet Offline
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Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
Most vegans in the UK don't just have an animal-free diet but do not use any animal-related product, including leather, wool and silk. I know quite a few and, while their choices must complicate life somewhat they seem happy enough with them and aren't "preachy".
It's an interesting challenge to look at supermarket food labelled "Suitable for Vegetarians" and check out which ingredients included are by-products of the meat industry, such as cheese on a meat-free ravioli. There's not much point in being vegetarian and not vegan, if you're doing it for animal welfare reasons.
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#70617 - 09/02/12 05:29 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Naama]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
Veganism is good for the occult, I don't have any prooflink for it, but I got this experience from some other occultists... practicing occultists. And my own experience does proove it too...

That idea is linked to "purify the body" before ritual. Happens a lot in New-age groups. You have no idea how much farting takes place during such a get together.

 Quote:
It (if I would become a vegan) does not necessarily put me together with the tree huggers and granola crunch people. I am still an LHP follower... but veganism stems from different reasons here...

If fags can follow the LHP, transsexuals, former pedophiles, clowns, carnivores, vegetarians.. why can't a vegan? This statement is pure brainfart.
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#72480 - 11/03/12 06:45 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dimitri]
ceruleansteel Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
I have a farm and I raise animals that I eat or plan to eat soon (the beef is due to be born in March). I don't feel one second of guilt over this, even when I'm snuggling the rabbit today that will be slaughtered tomorrow. My only concern is that they are killed quickly so they don't suffer. After that, they're just meat.

As has been said, that's the way things go. Some animals are predators and some are prey. These animals exist for the sole purpose of feeding my family and me. I do my part by making every minute leading up to slaughter pleasant for them.

My diet is almost opposite of recommendations. I eat loads of meat and eggs and a modest amount of vegetables and fruits. I'm healthy as a horse. My bad cholesterol has never tested above 19 and the closest I get to being sick is the occasional hangover.

I think the deteriorating health of Americans has just as much to do with what is in the food they eat as it does with their choices of what they eat. Russia did testing of our GM corn and found that over the entire lifespan of a rat, the corn gave it cancer. Our FDA only tested for 6 weeks (or was it months?) and cleared GM corn for human consumption. Also, GM foods and methods used to process even fruits and vegetables on a commercial scale strip most of the nutrients from the foods you eat. There are thousands of potato strains yet we only eat 3 kinds because they are the easiest to mass-produce. They are also the three least healthy strains of potato. Etc.

Chemicals used in processing foods, Chemicals used in growing/raising the foods, genetic modifications of foods, hormones in our meats...these things all contribute to poor health. The dairy industry has demonized raw milk so that it can keep 100% of the milk market, yet the process of homogenization strips the milk of almost all of it's nutrients. They respond to that by going back in and tampering with the milk so to add nutrients to it. What the fuck are you actually drinking?

(And spinach is a better source of everything that the dairy industry claims you MUST DRINK MILK in order to get.)

Since most of what I consume comes from within a half-mile of my house, I have the advantage. I know what's in my meat because I raised it. I know whether my fruits and vegetables are safe because I grew them/picked them. There wont ever be a recall on dinner here because there are no south americans shitting on their hand and then touching my food. Also, I am in tune with my body and can interpret what it's asking for. I give it what it wants, and it wants loads of meat.

And I'm neither guilty nor ashamed. I treat my animals very well, and nothing about eating meat is unnatural. What *is* unnatural, I think, is denying yourself any kind of food simply because something had to die to provide it. Nature is death.

And as for the bobcat and the hunting knife thing, obviously you have never hunted in any way at all, ever. Even armed with doe piss and a great rifle with a scope, deer are not so easy to kill. Nor are rabbits and most other creatures.




Edited by ceruleansteel (11/03/12 06:46 PM)
Edit Reason: added a word. Fuck you.

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#72483 - 11/03/12 08:05 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: ceruleansteel]
blackblooded Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/14/12
Posts: 24
Loc: Louisiana
We try to kill squirrels as humanely as possible: Stun them with a pellet gun (anything high-caliber would blow it to bits) and chop it's head off. My friend was talking about wringing ducks' necks, and I brought this up. We both got accused of animal abuse by a classmate. As if it's more humane to let it suffer, as long as it doesn't get away.

On vegans, I like to tease my vegan classmate whenever I get the chance. I've never told her this, but she looks like a skeleton. She's pretty enough, just really thin. I once asked her if it was vegan if I only drained the animals life force. She didn't get the joke.
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#72524 - 11/04/12 01:18 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: blackblooded]
ceruleansteel Offline
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There's nothing pretty about "really thin". When I see someone with bones sticking out all over the place, my first thought is drugs and my second thought is AIDS. Even starving kids at least have a bloated belly. No, "really thin" is an indication of something gone terribly wrong. Every time. Whether it's diet-induced malnutrition or drugs or disease, it's not desirable.

I think when killing squirrel, it's a lot better to do like we do with rabbits: karate chop the back of the head like a Bruce Lee champ. Then you can hang it by it's head when you skin it. So much easier and you can save the pelt because you didn't have to rip it to shreds to get it off.

We hunt squirrel with a small caliber shotgun, just blow them out of their nests. Never had one I couldn't cook and never had one I couldn't keep the pelt.

And I don't think they consider it "more humane to let it suffer". I think it's that for some reason, when you put an animal in a factory, a magical gas comes out of the walls and they feel no pain ever. Perhaps some of these factories even bring the animal in, give it a good home, and then pick steaks and bacon off of magical trees that grow in the factory.

In other words, people are pussies and they have trained themselves to never think about a steak being a former cow, etc. When you make them confront the reality of it, they get all conflicted and shit.

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#73056 - 11/19/12 05:52 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: ceruleansteel]
Woland Moderator Offline
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I prefer to buy my meat locally.
We have this farmer who offers grass fed animals for a decent price.
Norwegian wild-sheep and deer on the way to our freezer as I write.




If all goes according to plan: come spring, I will be a certified hunter and (hopefully) be given the right to carry a firearm.
(There is a file on me somewhere...)

Looking forward to sinking my teeth into:




My kids are city-bred, and I brought them with me when we purchased half a grass-fed pig on a local farm.
(Pigs should be around 60 lbs at the time of slaughtering.)
The farmers wife was incredibly thankful that we brought the kids with us.
As she said; they need to know!

Back at home we unwrapped Piggy, and laid him out on the table.
Kids! Jigsaw-puzzle coming on!
They got so utterly into reconstructing.
Was a real pleasure!
(As was the following pork chops.)
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#73071 - 11/20/12 01:56 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Woland]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Seeing as my iron level sits at a daily level of 6, the word Vegan is far, far from what I could ever imagine being. Apparently, at such a low level, I am basically the walking dead. Although, I function quite well seeing as my diet mainly consists of Monster and random snack foods.

As for the humane killing ideas.. When it comes to killing anything can one really ever do it in a completely humane way? Can you truly give a comfortable death to something that already instinctively knows it is about to die? Since what they feel is not translated to humans, I guess we can only make educated guesses at which would be the best method.

@Cerulean - I actually am quite thin myself. It's natural for me to sit at the 115 pounds that I am at. Especially standing at a measley 5'4". I have to admit that when I see stick figures, however, it makes me wonder about what they have in their kitchen. I have striven for the body that I wanted by working out and never really being stuck in a state of inertia. It's a pride thing for me that I can keep myself in check and still remain healthy. It's also a plus when I can have a burger and not really worry about it distributing itself into places I'd rather not it stick around in. I see what you are talking about but at the same time, not everyone is sick when they are thin.

Furthermore, starving children's stomachs are bloated because of the gas in their systems from the lack of food. It's truly a sad thing.
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#73085 - 11/20/12 09:40 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
FemaleSatan Offline
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Did you ever stop to think that maybe the reason you iron is so low is the diet you are consuming, in particular the energy drinks?

Caffeine prevents absorption of iron.

Check it out:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/481280-iron-deficiency-caffeine/

http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.aspx?id=1378
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#73089 - 11/21/12 12:52 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Woland]
ceruleansteel Offline
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 Quote:
Norwegian wild-sheep and deer on the way to our freezer as I write.


Nice! My freezer currently houses one 8 lb rabbit, half a deer, and two squirrels.


 Quote:
If all goes according to plan: come spring, I will be a certified hunter and (hopefully) be given the right to carry a firearm.


It always surprises me, the things Europeans have to be certified for. What do you have to do in order to "have the right" to put food on the table? We have hunter's education classes, but they only apply to those born after 1978. Aside from that, you shell out 35$ for the permit and just make sure you use the right weapon according to the season. If public land is not huntable, it has to be clearly marked as such in the annual hunting guide. If private property isn't huntable, they have to mark it with purple (spray paint or purple ribbons). That's pretty much all of the rules.

What will you hunt when you get your privileges?


 Quote:
(Pigs should be around 60 lbs at the time of slaughtering.)


What kind of pigs are you buying? We're going to start raising blue butts December 1st and they're typical slaughter weight is between 250 and 300 lbs. After 250, though, the fat ratio goes up quickly.

I can't wait to be chowing down on my own pork chops and bacon...around next spring. I think it's good for the kids to know, as well, and to witness the "circle of life" in action. However, I seem to be in the minority with my peers. I don't have the kids present for slaughtering, but they know that when a rabbit or pig or chicken, etc., leaves the pen, it's only for one reason. Then comes the pelts, and the carcass to be butchered up right in the kitchen.

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#73101 - 11/21/12 12:16 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: FemaleSatan]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Loc: Michigan, USA
My iron has been low since I got pregnant with my first son. Even on a contained diet and iron supplements, it is difficult to maintain above a 10. Which is better than a 6 or 7 but there's not too much difference in the effect that it has on my body.

Interesting links. I have meant to cut these things out of my diet for a long time but as I have a couple small routines that revolve around it, those must be broken first. In time.
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#73110 - 11/21/12 03:34 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
ceruleansteel Offline
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You may want to consider adding yogurt to your diet and skipping processed foods. If you are eating a diet high in iron but still find yourself anemic, it could be a digestive disorder.
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#73111 - 11/21/12 03:39 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: ceruleansteel]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
You may want to consider adding yogurt to your diet and skipping processed foods. If you are eating a diet high in iron but still find yourself anemic, it could be a digestive disorder.


Thanks for the advice. I hadn't really given much thought to yogurt but it's definitely worth a try. At some point, I would like to just be off iron supplements but for now, I roll with the waves.
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#73112 - 11/21/12 03:47 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Nemesis Offline
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Eating foods high in Vitamin C can also help boost your body's uptake of iron, while caffeine (as CS mentioned), eggs, high-calcium foods like dairy, and high-phytate foods like nuts can inhibit absorption.
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#73148 - 11/22/12 11:40 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. Gardein Product [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
prodigalsun Offline
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Registered: 10/13/12
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The photos of food dishes made with this faux meat are bodacious to the mental stimulation for meat. To make many dishes where this can be a replacement for chicken and beef, other critters. Changes more of my views on tolerable veganism.

Edited by prodigalsun (11/22/12 11:54 PM)

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#73149 - 11/22/12 11:46 PM Fence Straddling Partial Vegan/Partial Carnivore [Re: prodigalsun]
prodigalsun Offline
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Processed meats, from many news exposes and science studies has been claimed to be most harmful to many human metabolisms last few years.

I decided to become a partial vegetarian also to deal with the cost of food too, mainly raw meat cutlets. Vegan four days a week and meat 3 days.

I do like the meaty texture of eggplant dishes, plus like potatos in many variety dishes.

Many scare stories have appeared about some medical maladies with public personas and celebrities on vegan diets exclusively. Linda McCartney for one and her cancer death.

Insects are long said to be good protein sources, with grubs and maggots of larger species a staple in some aboriginal cultures (like New Guinea). I could try out some of these, if they were prepared certain ways or made into a ground food meal for baking.



Edited by prodigalsun (11/22/12 11:49 PM)

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#82351 - 11/15/13 04:16 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Jake999]
newworldorder Offline
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Right, humans are omnivores, it's necessary to eat meat. We are human, we are not lower organisms, eating meat is an originally ability for us, we don't have to pretend that we are cows or horses, we should to enjoy the thrill of eating meat.
So keep calm and eat your meat.

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#91076 - 07/20/14 08:53 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: newworldorder]
SIN3 Offline
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Research suggests that prehistoric man ate a whole lot more Vegan than once suspected. Prehistoric Tooth-plaque Examined and Significant Plant Use

 Quote:
It's unclear why prehistoric people chewed on the tubers, but other ancient societies have benefited from the plant's many uses. Hunter-gatherer societies, such as the Aboriginals in central Australia, relied on these tubers for carbohydrates, and studies show that the plant contains lysine, an essential amino acid that the human body cannot produce on its own.

The ancient Egyptians and Greeks used purple nutsedge for water purification, perfume and medical purposes, records suggest. What's more, the plant has antimicrobial, antimalarial, antioxidant and anti-diabetic compounds, studies have found.


While it ties in more to tooth-decay, it won't exactly kill you.

Paleo-Veganism included Elephant Meat

 Quote:
"The implications are pretty simple, although certainly not trivial — early human explorers of interior North America opportunistically targeted the largest Pleistocene animals as part of their cultural pattern, and this pattern probably started almost as soon as people had made their way south into the lower 48 states," said Gary Haynes, an archaeologist at the University of Nevada, Reno. The Pleistocene era ranges from 2.6 million to 11,700 years ago.


High Protein diets, especially those from animals is thought to be tied to a shortened life span beyond middle age.

See: The High-protein Diet Debate

 Quote:
new research was published that indicated people who eat high-protein diets during middle age are more likely to die of cancer than those who eat less protein. Clearly this was an alarming announcement to some and concerning to others.
The research followed 6,000 people, 50 years old or older for 18 years. What they concluded was that the people who eat a high, animal-based-protein diet were four times more likely to die of cancer then those who eat a low-protein diet.


If Prehistoric man ate a high-protein diet prior to agriculture it could account for shorter life spans because of the animal proteins.

I eat more Greek Vegetarian. I rarely eat red meat. Any meat is usually fish, and occasional white meat. I can go months without eating meat. When I pick it back up, I can see the effects on my overall skin tone. Which is why I end up changing back to a meat-free diet.

Will it kill me?

The verdict isn't out on that. Veganism as the pathway to a shorter life span stems from ideas propagated from the old Nutrition Pyramid.

The USDA issued another version 20 years ago. Then another. 110 years later, the USDA issued a new guideline called MY PLATE.

 Quote:
The plate is divided into half, with one side split into approximately 30 percent vegetables and 20 percent fruits, and the other half split into 30 percent grains and 20 percent protein. The small circle, or glass, represents dairy, such as a glass of low-fat/nonfat milk or a yogurt cup. To make it even easier, remember to load half your plate with your favorite produce (fruits and vegetables) and the other half with grains and a variety of proteins. Choose eggs or lean cuts of beef, pork and poultry – and don’t forget that beans and soy are also a great choice for protein on your plate.

MyPlate also provides additional supplemental recommendations, such as switching from 2 percent milk to either 1 percent or skim, and aim to make at least half your grains whole, such as choosing brown rice over white. Vary the type of protein you eat daily, and when it comes to fruits and vegetables, go for a rainbow of colors to ensure nutrient-rich variety in your diet. Last but not least, be aware of portion control by sticking to the nine-inch plate and strive to reduce both your sodium and sugar intake.

So, get healthy and banish the belly fat by piling your plate high with fruits and vegetables.


See: Choose MY PLATE

The USDA appears to be leaning towards lean-proteins in smaller portions than once propagated for over a century. The animal proteins are getting leaner and smaller, perhaps even eliminated over time as more research is conducted.

Veganism as the pathway to shorter life spans is just propaganda.

Let's also not forget that the USDA has a vested interest in including the Meat Industry in its new PLATE model.
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#91103 - 07/21/14 10:13 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
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I think we could should look at what both sides gain to benefit from this debate and that will tell us all about the issue.

On the side who support meat, profits have steadily increased in general. Therefore, they see no threat to their industry by vegans. Meanwhile, beef has traditionally been a source of revenue since the early settling days. So, it is unlikely the dominance of the meat industry will change soon.

On the vegan side are farmers who plant, rather than raise cattle and other animals. Animals have a upkeep cost and are generally more expensive, whereas plants are cheap, plentiful, and not very profitable because of this. In order to keep prices artificially high, the government actually pays some farmers not to farm. The only way to fix this situation is to increase demand. The best way to do this is by challenging the health effects of meat, so that hopefully profitability can increase on plants. It is a good time to do this, since animal rights groups support this. In addition, in the long-term, plants are more sustainable than meat. Not only do animals require land to graze on, this land could instead be used for plants.

Therefore, we can see why the USDA is supporting plants over meat currently.

Now for my personal opinion. Everyone I met that doesn't eat meat tends to be, in my opinion, abnormally skinny/boney. In fact, back when I never worked out, I would venture to say I was even more muscular than male vegans. This cannot be healthy. In general, I think anything taken to an extreme, like vegans do with meat, is unhealthy.

To support my distrust of the government, and USDA, I add in the facts that the government never supported any studies that showed a link between smoking and cancer until the 1960s (Even though studies showing the link clearly existed since the 1930s). Today, I would argue the government is doing the same with cell phones and their link with cancer. In both cases, the industries had a lot of sway, and the government did not want to anger them. Therefore, the government does what is of benefit to them, not what is of benefit to the people.

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#91106 - 07/21/14 10:32 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: theharkonnen]
SIN3 Offline
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No question, capitalism is the focal point. Nutrition and Health pretty much take a back-seat to that fact.

I go Vegan/Vegetarian for the obvious results in my person not for any moral qualms about killing and eating animals.

 Quote:
The best way to do this is by challenging the health effects of meat


From a business model, certainly. As a consumer, people are tasked with sorting through the b.s. to find a healthy balance. Especially when feeding children. Food shopping and eating habits start there. Another element to address obesity rates per capita. That's even more convoluted when you have to sort out behaviors vs. food consumption (i.e. what people eating, in what portion, how often, etc). Then from there you can run tandem studies to address disease such as Cancer, Diabetes, and Intestinal disorders.

Never in my life have I run into so many people with IBS in more recent years than I have had in the past.
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#91108 - 07/21/14 11:07 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
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Well, it could also be quality of meat. I think there is a strong difference between local meat and KFC type meat. Most people end up having the KFC meat, due to ease of access, low price, and because it is "fast food".

A couple years back, I ate a lot of fast food like this and my diet consisted of 90% meat. I was borderline overweight and had various health problems (Pain, sleep problems, etc). Since then, I have eaten less meat (Its still about 50% though), have begun eating more vegetables and fruit, and go eat fast food maybe once a month (If that). I feel a lot better and I haven't been getting sick. Plus, I am now at the recommended weight for my height and age.

Now I can't even go to McDonald's and the like. My stomach can't handle that crap anymore. I do go to KFC once in a while, but afterwards, my stomach always hurts. And we have been made to accept this crap! No wonder obesity is such a problem. Bad diet combined with no exercise will kill you in the long-run. To believe I once lived like this. Although, I think it has to do with the fact that given our fast-paced world, no one has time to think about things like this and do not have the willpower at the end of a long day of work to change it.

The same thing with soda. I used to drink Dr. Pepper all the time. Now I drink water. Not only does the food taste better (The soda was drowning out the food's taste), I am not as jumpy. Plus, there are numerous studies indicating that soda weakens one's bones.

I don't think I can ever become a vegan, though I also never believed I would get off of soda either.

For moral qualms, I have eaten too many chickens, cows, and shrimp to start believing in such things. I am pass the point of no return.




Edited by theharkonnen (07/21/14 11:07 AM)

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#91109 - 07/21/14 11:14 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: theharkonnen]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
Well, it could also be quality of meat


Well, I think what you're talking about is food prep. Fried chicken vs. say, baked chicken. We can't really know for certain if this alleged corn-fed 'organic' meat is any better either. At the risk of going off on tangent about the 'organic' b.s., I'll just say that most of what is labeled organic isn't.

Sounds to me as if you just altered your behavior.

If you went from 90% animal protein to 50%, that just lends more evidence to the lean protein diet theory.

Veganism isn't always tied to some save the animals campaign, some people just prefer to eat that way.

Compare your average Vegan diet to your average fast-food consumer, the results may surprise you.

Most of that food is garbage but it's not all bad. Everything in moderation.
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#91110 - 07/21/14 11:43 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
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Well, I mean that fast food hamburgers and the like are prepared poorly. When it looks like slime and tastes like slime, that can't be healthy. I usually stuck with the chicken fingers and the like because you are less likely to get sick from chicken than from bad beef. I mean both are bad, but I'll take the health problems from chicken more.

I think the organic stuff has more psychological benefit than actual benefit. It is better to think your eating gold than to actually be eating it. Penn and Teller once did a test related to this on their show "bullshit". They gave people cheap wine at a rich, upper class restaurant. People believed the wine was better, even though it was cheap. So, its all perception. Now do I go out my way for organic food, no, but to tell you the truth, I don't avoid it either.

I had a friend who worked at KFC. He never ate at KFC since. Usually when the food goes bad, they throw away the time card, not the food.

I think exercise is another thing to consider. I went from no exercise (For many years) to one hour a day. So I can't really say if its the food that makes me feel better or the exercise. Maybe its both.

And yes, I did greatly alter my behavior. The old lifestyle was not working, so I tried all this. The results are much better than what I had. If I'm lucky, maybe I'll live longer. The longer I am entertained by this planet, the better.

Now if only I could get up from the computer more often...


Edited by theharkonnen (07/21/14 11:45 AM)

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#91120 - 07/21/14 11:25 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: theharkonnen]
RobertDonohue Offline
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Pure and simple. Humans were given canine incisors for a reason. that reason is for tearing and ripping flesh. denying the flesh is just malnutrition.
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#91125 - 07/22/14 10:18 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: RobertDonohue]
SIN3 Offline
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Thing is, the human is a bi-product of eating meat. It didn't start out that way. The evolution over several generations of meat eating caused several adaptations. To include smaller jaws and facial dwarfing. Consider the amount of time spent maintaining teeth in humans (including dental surgery to remove wisdom teeth).

Chimps have been developing a penchant for meat, give it a few more generations, that species will adapt as well. Compared to Gorillas, (complete omnivores) if the diet changed it would kill them earlier than their natural life expectancy. The reason they can cohabitate is because they have different diets.

Peter Lucas focuses on teeth in Dental Function Morphology:

 Quote:
"But when it comes to humans, the ideal occlusion [the way teeth fit together] is virtually never seen. It's really the only body part that regularly needs attention and surgery."


So teeth don't necessarily mean adaptation for nutrition, more like survival. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.
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#91166 - 07/24/14 08:35 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Naama Offline
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I was always surprised and even shocked from this (apparently RHP) tendency to refer to animal kingdom for an answers.
To refer to animal kingdom for an answers what "we as human beings outta do, how to act and kind of habits to develop"

Even, references to another fella human being "for an answer how to act" - would be considered quite a bad taste from the devil's prospective.

How much more so - it's strange to imitate the ways and habits of our mammal friends.
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#91168 - 07/24/14 09:29 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Naama]
Dan_Dread Offline
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There is no need to imitate animals, as we would only be imitating ourselves. We are all driven by the needs to eat, sleep, fuck, shit and piss, we are all driven to protect our genetics, our loved ones, our territory (even as that extends to property). We are all driven to sate our basic animal needs such as shelter, such as companionship, such as security. All animals do these things, and the vast majority of our technology exists to facilitate these things.

No, if there is to be a line drawn, it would be those that make special pleading for man as some 'magical' creature, somehow exempt from these basic animal behaviours based on some belief that we have been somehow removed from nature, that fall squarely on the right.

We can learn much of ourselves from those 'lesser' animals, as they are free from the deceptive abstractions of human language which facilitates these linguistic things that have their roots only in other linguistic things.
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#91169 - 07/24/14 09:50 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dan_Dread]
theharkonnen Offline
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Posts: 218
To expand on your point:

1. Ants have been shown to go to war. The defeated party is exterminated or enslaved. "Propaganda" ants actually spray areas will a hormone causing confusion and dissent through the enemy ranks. In addition, scout ants can use hormones to "paint" a target.

Therefore, war is natural and genocide not unique to humans.

2. Ravens have been shown to have regional dialects and make crude tools. The designs of said tools are also culturally influenced.

Therefore, culture is not unique to humans.

3. Weaker squirrels fight over the scraps of the stronger squirrels. This is how countries work.

Therefore, classes and oppression of the weak are not unique to humans.

To argue humans are are special or exceptional, creates a false sense of superiority and creates an a self-crafted illusion. Of course, for some, it is this illusion that keeps them going.

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#91170 - 07/24/14 10:04 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Naama]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Naama
I was always surprised and even shocked from this (apparently RHP) tendency to refer to animal kingdom for an answers.


Please do pontificate the RHP tendencies. As if man is somehow separate from the landscape, from the natural order.

 Quote:



To refer to animal kingdom for an answers what "we as human beings outta do, how to act and kind of habits to develop"

Even, references to another fella human being "for an answer how to act" - would be considered quite a bad taste from the devil's prospective.


Sure honey, that's why you do everything you do because you pulled it out of the sky, with special fairy dust, it all came from you. Tell me again about the Devil's perspective.

 Quote:


How much more so - it's strange to imitate the ways and habits of our mammal friends.



Imitate? These traits are innate. I was merely using the premise of evolution and natural selection to present a position. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.
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#91182 - 07/24/14 11:14 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
felixgarnet Offline
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After some dithering, I've been vegan for the last six months and plan to keep it that way. There's a vast amount of deliberate animal cruelty in British farming and livestock is so full of hormones and anti-biotics it's a wonder we don't have immortal pigs and cows.
I've found lots of great vegan food - including non-dairy ice-cream made with real vanilla pods that is to die for (in a good way) and have friends to suggest recipes. I'm gradually phasing out leather goods, too - except for my antique Chesterfield sofas. A couple of pure wool sweaters are in my wardrobe, though as acrylic is just nasty.
UK vegans are a good crowd on the whole and don't ram it down your throat - pun intended - offering taster sessions and cookery classes, usually free of charge.
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#91210 - 07/25/14 05:29 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: felixgarnet]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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 Originally Posted By: felixgarnet
After some dithering, I've been vegan for the last six months and plan to keep it that way. There's a vast amount of deliberate animal cruelty in British farming and livestock is so full of hormones and anti-biotics it's a wonder we don't have immortal pigs and cows.

Fortunately for the carnivores here, it isn't necessary to go vegan to be kind to our fellow species.
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#91222 - 07/26/14 06:56 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: felixgarnet]
SIN3 Offline
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But do you think it will eventually kill you? That's what the topic is about. The long-term effects of a Vegan diet.

See: Consumer Reports: The Meat on Drugs and U.S. National Library of Medicine Just some examples. In many of the research papers I've read, the importance of managing the stress of the animal when it's slaughtered affects the overall quality of the meat product. The industry is looking for a genetic solution vs. just finding other ways to feed/treat and slaughter the animal. It appears to have more to do with cost and ROI than any health concern by the meat-packing industry.

Contributing factors to cancer risk appears to be on the top of the list of concerns for the consumer.
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#91246 - 07/28/14 02:47 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
SIN3 Offline
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This article is interesting

 Quote:
A few days ago, McClatchy published a detailed piece on how the American pork industry — led by the National Pork Producers Council (NPPC) — now is demanding that European authorities allow pork from pigs fed ractopamine into their market. The European Food Safety Authority investigated ractopamine in 2009, concluding there were not enough data to show that it is safe for human consumption at any level.


If there's not enough data to determine what level is safe for human consumption, do you just add it and hope for the best?

So Europe is under-fire for not allowing pigs fed ractopamine into their market because they are just being cautious?
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#91248 - 07/28/14 03:56 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
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The US also allows Monsanto to dominate the agricultural sector. China has banned Monsanto products. Yet China allows people to be exposed to lead. So, what does that say about the US health system?

I was watching a documentary on PBS yesterday about it and countries that are using Monsanto products are facing bugs and other diseases that are very strong to pesticides, so they have to use more. Meanwhile, Europe, which banned GMOs, is actually using less pesticides.

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#91319 - 07/30/14 10:44 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: theharkonnen]
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I've read mixed reports about GMO's. I compare it to the conflicting reports on human-caused Global warming. The scientists don't seem to agree.

From what I understand, there hasn't been enough research conducted to determine the long-term effects of GMO's and Monsanto pesticides. Some tie it directly to causing several forms of cancer and other illnesses or they look to the Obesity statistics and food alterations.


See: Washington Research Foundation as one example.


It's like a double edged sword. On one side you have the issue of producing the most yield and crop survival. On the other you have Health Concerns and Capitalism.


Here's another on the flip side: GMO awareness


In the information age, people take into consideration that reports are fudges, the government lies and people are at a loss on separating the cold hard facts from the fiction.

Information is the new commerce.

 Quote:
View a list of the top ten genetically modified crops and see which genetically engineered traits are most predominant.

Instead, nearly 100% of genetic modification is devoted to the increased use of herbicides and pesticides, which these “ag-bio” corporations also develop and sell. The majority of their research and development has been focused on genetically altering plants to do one of two things:

To produce their own internal pesticide to kill or deter insects; and
To remain alive when repeatedly sprayed with weedkillers that are manufactured by these same corporations, including glyphosate (aka RoundUp), glufosinate, and 2-4,D (one of the primary ingredients of Agent Orange).
Some crops are genetically engineered with both herbicide-resistant traits; soy was recently genetically engineered to withstand all three.


This appears to be the most propagated 'info' to go against the acceptance of GMO's. It's not enough to produce a genetically modified product but the pesticide/herbicide production runs in tandem.

People gather their own data and under the guise of 'education' propagate it.

See: Wiki

 Quote:
While some groups and individuals have called for more human testing of genetically modified food,[156] there are several obstacles to such studies. The General Accounting Office (in a review of FDA procedures requested by Congress) and a working group of the Food and Agricultural and World Health organizations have said that long-term studies of the effect of genetically modified food on humans are not feasible. The reasons given have included the problem that there is no plausible hypothesis to test, that very little is known about the potential long-term effects of any foods, that identification of such effects is further confounded by the great variability in the way people react to foods and that epidemiological studies are not likely to differentiate the health effects of modified foods from the many undesirable effects of conventional foods.[157][158]


Which is why so many people look to the research conducted by other countries to determine what is safe to eat. Even then, that safety isn't guaranteed. I mean, it's not as if we're seeing a trend of detrimental effects that couldn't be explained by other factors. Take Cancer for instance. Just about *everything* causes cancer these days, including sun exposure. It's not any one thing but a combination of things. To pinpoint it would be extremely difficult.

I've had skin cancer twice. As a topical problem, surgical removal is fairly simple and it tends to not show up in the same place. Speaking to my doctor and getting several opinions from other skin cancer experts, none could give me any one cause. The first time I got it, I was barely 21. After that surgery, I was looking for ways to prevent it. It doesn't really matter what health regime you have, how well you eat, or take care of your skin - any number of things could cause it. So I got it again in my 30's. There's so much we don't know and what we do know can be used for any particular campaign.

So when I see things like 'GMO awareness' immediately I'm skeptical and critical of any data presented to 'educate' me.
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#91360 - 08/01/14 10:13 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
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There is a Chinese saying that is used today in China, but not the US, "Crossing the stream by feeling the stones". It basically means that when something new comes around, whether a policy or product, it should be tested slowly in a local area, then in several local areas, then in a states, then it can be used by the whole country. The purpose is to find "bugs" in something that can be corrected easily (Since they are small at a local level), then after they are corrected, one can make the product or policy more encompassing.

However, with products likes these, there is only scientific testing, which may or may not be accurate. A scientific test in certain conditions may not give the same results as in reality. Yet, when it comes to GMOs, it seems everyone is simply just racing towards it, either because of price or pressure. GMOs are fairly new, so we really do not know. But, since much of our agricultural sector is depended on it, it seems everyone, save a few "Loonies", think they are fine.

Again, I refer to my cell phone and smoking skepticism. Both are considered okay, and for smoking, it was admitted it causes cancer. I would like to know what I am buying.

Of course, we need only look at why GMOs are used. Governments what bigger populations, which can be more easily sustained through using GMOs, so that they can have a bigger tax base. Quality of life is really irrelevant to them. I've heard a saying, "If it isn't pavement, it is a wasting resource." Plus, Monsanto has a powerful lobbying base. I mean it sends me warning signs when companies like this ask for special protection against lawsuits. It strongly tells me they are hiding something. Before I was neutral on the whole thing, but this was a major warning sign I think.


Edited by theharkonnen (08/01/14 10:17 AM)

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#91364 - 08/01/14 10:32 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: theharkonnen]
SIN3 Offline
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I think that's more or less what freaks people out. Monsanto as a corporation and it's muscle. People empathize with the effects on the small farmer vs. the corporate farming complex. That alone doesn't prove that GMO's are dangerous. The 'testing' on populations starts small then expands. GMO's were approved in 82 but didn't actually hit the store shelves until 94. I think the first food was a tomato (check me on that, just going from memory).

I think what causes the panic, is the wide-spread of GMO seeding (this started about 99) so once it's introduced into the flora, there's no going back. Some of the smaller farms were strong-armed because the seed travels, and Monsanto pretty much just exercised Might is Right in that regard. The big corporation is demonized as it crushes the weaker under foot.

Monsanto has already patented a second generation seed that rendered the first obsolete (patent expired Jan 1 of this year), so they were proactive in ensuring that they remain a heavy-hitter producer. Again, people fear the POWER of not only the capitalist wheel but the politics that runs in tandem.

It usually produces Conspiracy Theories that Monsanto is secretly manipulating the evolution of the human race. If that doesn't sound 'Looney', I don't know what does.

If we go by the GMO timeline, you've been eating this stuff since the 90's. Notice any changes in your health compared to previous decades? One aspect that proofers point to is the increase in allergies. As if allergies alone prove that his stuff is killing you slowly.

There just isn't enough study data to make that determination, people just fear the unknown.
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#91371 - 08/01/14 11:31 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
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It surprises me that after things like the NSA scandal that conspiracy theorists are still seen as "looney". Well, sheep do go "Baa", which translates into "How dare you question our benevolent masters!".

Still, I'll refer to the banning of GMOs by China and Europe. In one case, they want the population to decrease (China), so this may make sense. However, Europe needs a larger population, but they stilled banned it. Of course in countries like Switzerland, they have small personal gardens, which 3 or 4 households share and help make. So it may be they simply don't need it.

But then again, China certainly does not care about people's health, and has little environmental controls, yet outlaws GMOs. It seems that they think its more harmful than pollution.

Of course, for many politicians and economists, the argument is that we're all dead in the long-term anyway, so who cares? If this is their mentality, then I think the long-term may be a bit more short-term than they may realize.

Whatever happens, we chose. If it benefits us, then we will reap the benefits. If we suffer for it, we have only ourselves to blame, for much like smoking and cell phones, the potential problems were there.





Edited by theharkonnen (08/01/14 11:32 AM)

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#91373 - 08/01/14 11:38 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: theharkonnen]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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 Quote:
It surprises me that after things like the NSA scandal that conspiracy theorists are still seen as "looney". Well, sheep do go "Baa", which translates into "How dare you question our benevolent masters!".


Well, all conspiracy is based in a shred of truth. Some more than others. I was more or less more honed in on what I'd consider looney. It's not that all Conspiracy Theory is way off, it's a wide scale and Occam's Razor applies.

 Quote:

Still, I'll refer to the banning of GMOs by China and Europe. In one case, they want the population to decrease (China), so this may make sense. However, Europe needs a larger population, but they stilled banned it.


I think they're just being cautious until more information is available. It's sort of like how several European countries have changed the minimum age requirement for vaccinations. Even if the data is inconclusive, it's more helpful than harmful to allow babies to mature biologically before pumping their system with doses of disease (and a cocktail of chemicals) to be cautious.

If we took cues from China & Europe all the time, we may be a lot worse off than we are today. I mean ffs, both have made some looney decisions in the past (and even today). I do agree that it may give one pause and wonder why isn't the U.S. following trend? It's pretty complex, you also have to take into consideration the technology race and being a competitive world player in the Economy.

Evolution takes millions of years. So I wouldn't fret about it too much, it's not like you're going to wake up with gills if you happen to eat a GMO strawberry the night before.
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#91385 - 08/01/14 01:27 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
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Well, think back to before the NSA scandal and how people felt it wasn't possible, let alone why would they do it. They thought the government served the people, not the other way around...

Of course, mind control and MK Ultra was also very farfetched. Yet it happened. People also say that politicians are lizard-people or that there is a one world order coming. Yet, in WWI, all the kings and queens of the European nations were cousins.

In addition, if we look at lizard-people as a metaphor, we find it quite accurate. A poor person acts much different from a middle class person, and a rich person much different than the other two. For example, a poor person wants as much food as possible for the buck, a middle class wants a decent portion, and a rich person cares not of the portion, but only the presentation.

So what may seem farfetched today may be proven tomorrow. I rather not get caught with my pants down.

So, the growing gills is probably not going to happen, but your allegory theory may be more probable than you realize.

 Quote:
you also have to take into consideration the technology race and being a competitive world player in the Economy.


I thought we gave that up when we decreased funding for education. Not to mention the STEM education BS. If companies want STEM employees, then why are STEM companies like Microsoft laying off left and right. They recently announced the layoff of some 20,000 people. So much for STEM. The only reason they focus on STEM is to create more people expert in these fields, so that they can decrease their wages overall. Supply and demand.

Not to mention, didn't we give it up when people started complaining about stem cell research being immoral?

In terms of GMOs, we need less food, not more. A recent report found that 80% of people over 55 are overweight or obese. Starvation should slim'em down some.

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#91388 - 08/01/14 02:15 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: theharkonnen]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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 Originally Posted By: theharkonnen
Well, think back to before the NSA scandal and how people felt it wasn't possible, let alone why would they do it. They thought the government served the people, not the other way around...


All Snowden really did was shine a light on something very particular. The 'Government' has always invaded the privacy of citizens. There's always been corruption too. That's how a lot of organized crime syndicates were dismantled. Shady case-building and attaining warrants for bugging phones and other modes of communication. So, all you have to do is provide some sort of theory as to why a citizen needs to be watched (nowadays it's acts of terrorism) and bam, Big Brother is all up in your koolaid. People en masse just prefer to focus on their own pursuit of happiness. Many have no interest in the news, politics, etc. because at the end of the day, what does that really provide?

 Quote:


Of course, mind control and MK Ultra was also very farfetched. Yet it happened. People also say that politicians are lizard-people or that there is a one world order coming. Yet, in WWI, all the kings and queens of the European nations were cousins.


LMAO, good one. Did you also know that cousin-couplings can correct genetic disorders? Seriously though, the premise for the film Suspect Zero , just hones in on the underlying agenda of messing with people's minds. They are messed with every day in all sorts of ways and often by your average citizen.

 Quote:


In addition, if we look at lizard-people as a metaphor, we find it quite accurate. A poor person acts much different from a middle class person, and a rich person much different than the other two. For example, a poor person wants as much food as possible for the buck, a middle class wants a decent portion, and a rich person cares not of the portion, but only the presentation.


Oh come on. That's a bit far-fetched. A class-system is just another divisive tactic to say well those people are 'different' because they have more money and privilege. The same could be said about your Welfare Queen living in the Ghetto.

 Quote:


So what may seem farfetched today may be proven tomorrow. I rather not get caught with my pants down.


There's always proofs to something. What constitutes as proof is often just opinions. Everybody has an opinion and sometimes you're caught not wearing any pants at all.

 Quote:

So, the growing gills is probably not going to happen, but your allegory theory may be more probable than you realize.


I could eat a GMO strawberry (spliced with DNA of particular fish) and not grow gills by the end of my lifetime. That's not how adaptation and evolution works. It take several generations of alterations to genetic coding sequences. In order to fast-track it, you'd need a Sci-Fi premise like the film The Fly.


 Quote:


I thought we gave that up when we decreased funding for education. Not to mention the STEM education BS. If companies want STEM employees, then why are STEM companies like Microsoft laying off left and right. They recently announced the layoff of some 20,000 people. So much for STEM. The only reason they focus on STEM is to create more people expert in these fields, so that they can decrease their wages overall. Supply and demand.

Not to mention, didn't we give it up when people started complaining about stem cell research being immoral?

In terms of GMOs, we need less food, not more. A recent report found that 80% of people over 55 are overweight or obese. Starvation should slim'em down some.



As if the public education system complex is something worth funding anyway? There are far more superior ways to raise a people up to intelligence and innovation. Government controlled systems ain't it. It's an archaic system left over from an era where you had backwoods folks living in the mountains that couldn't even read, let alone pick up a technical trade. Yet, in spite of that several innovations and inventions came from those same people dubbed 'Ignorant and Uneducated', I mean, think about it. The so-called Government was given foot-hold to invade pretty much every aspect of people's lives and the sentiment propagated that it should be thanked for it. To include 'education' about GMO's.

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#91392 - 08/01/14 03:50 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
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Registered: 12/03/13
Posts: 218
 Quote:
As if the public education system complex is something worth funding anyway? There are far more superior ways to raise a people up to intelligence and innovation. Government controlled systems ain't it. It's an archaic system left over from an era where you had backwoods folks living in the mountains that couldn't even read, let alone pick up a technical trade. Yet, in spite of that several innovations and inventions came from those same people dubbed 'Ignorant and Uneducated', I mean, think about it. The so-called Government was given foot-hold to invade pretty much every aspect of people's lives and the sentiment propagated that it should be thanked for it. To include 'education' about GMO's.


Well, we studied this a little bit in school and the reason that education is public is because the private sector would not provide enough of it. More specifically, only those with money would be able to go. Since a well-educated population is a prerequisite for a healthy democracy, public education is needed. Well, at least in theory this holds true, in reality, people don't want to learn.

As someone else posted here, so long people have food and stability, they do not care. So things like GMOs are way off their radar. Mainly, it is those who deeply distrust the government or are pro-local farmer that care.

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#91396 - 08/01/14 04:11 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: theharkonnen]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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 Quote:
Well, at least in theory this holds true, in reality, people don't want to learn.


Coming from the same system. I think it's that people don't want to be told how to learn. To include participation in the private sector.

Socrates couldn't read or write, yet he didn't seem to have any trouble with seeking knowledge and understanding. In fact, he was so influential, he was forced to take hemlock because he was accused of corrupting the youth. They were asking too many questions that challenged the status quo.
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#91402 - 08/01/14 05:04 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
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Well, that could be true, although from my experience, most people simply do not care. On one hand, I knew people who were very smart, but said that either the school was not teaching them properly or they were not challenged. Despite their intelligence, one had to go into the marines, because they are really no good jobs around where I live, and another is now working at a factory for just above minimum wage.

But you are correct, in many cultures like in China, the most capable leaders were often self-taught. Many of them lived in obscurity and isolation by choice and they were not forced to attend public school.

On the other hand, I know people who just didn't care. Teachers I knew said that they assume they are going to get a nice, cozy factory job, but these have all been shipped overseas.

And then there are some teachers that just do not care about their students' learning. One such offender, at a public school mind you, taught for some 30 years and just did the stuff from memory. Everyone hated him because he went way too fast and he was confusing, but he didn't care. It was their fault for not learning according to him. He didn't care either that most of the class was failing either. FYI, I wasn't in that class, I tutored for it.


Edited by theharkonnen (08/01/14 05:06 PM)

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#91407 - 08/01/14 07:37 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: theharkonnen]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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 Quote:
On the other hand, I know people who just didn't care.


Even with the Public Education system in place, there will always be a percentage that don't make the most of the opportunity. Even if that system is sub-par, there's really nothing stopping these same people from learning else where in addition to that education. They don't care enough about nurturing their own intelligence.

These are usually the same types that believe word-of-mouth rumor, gossip, they don't read, etc. and will argue points based on nothing more than their emotional beliefs.
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#91421 - 08/02/14 09:54 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
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Registered: 12/03/13
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It could be because society in general honors football players above scientists. More specifically, in US culture, and maybe any culture in general, physical ability trumps mental ability in terms of fame. Plus, sports players get paid more in general.
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#91665 - 08/13/14 11:14 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: theharkonnen]
SIN3 Offline
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I thought you might find This article interesting.

 Quote:
While the USDA only oversees the safety of the plants, the EPA oversees the safety of the herbicide for human and environmental health. The agency has already found the chemical safe several times for other species as well as for the public and agricultural workers.

View galleryFILE - This Aug. 5, 2014, file photo shows corn plants …
FILE - This Aug. 5, 2014, file photo shows corn plants in a field near Ladora, Iowa. Faced with toug …
Groups lobbying the agency to prevent the herbicide's expanded use say they are concerned about the toxic effects of the herbicide and the potential for it to drift. Corn and soybeans are the nation's largest crops, and the potential for expanded use is huge.

Scott Faber of the Environmental Working Group said the EPA studies so far have not been comprehensive enough and need to look more closely into the effects of pesticides on children.

"This is a once-in-a-generation decision that will have a huge impact on public health, especially on farmers and rural residents," Faber said. "This is a moment to step back and ask if this is a durable weed control solution for farmers."


There isn't enough data to determine any long-term effects. The prediction that the weeds will adapt, sounds legit. Like anything else, nature always finds a way. The integration of chemicals in agriculture has produced lazy farming. It's easier to just spray down the fields than it is to get out there and weed them when your crops first emerge.

I'm lazy about it. I just have a small veggie garden and I use Sevin-5 dust. It controls the insects that would eat up crops before they even get a chance to fully mature. Especially the burrowing insect that destroys the plant at the root. I pull weeds by hand.

Cabaryl is illegal in several countries. According to the EPA LINK :

 Quote:
Acute (short-term) and chronic (long-term) occupational exposure of humans to carbaryl has been observed to cause cholinesterase inhibition, and reduced levels of this enzyme in the blood cause neurological effects. These effects appear to be reversible upon discontinuation of exposure. Headaches, memory loss, muscle weakness and cramps, and anorexia are caused by prolonged low-level exposure to carbaryl resulting from cholinesterase inhibition. EPA has classified carbaryl as a Group D, not classifiable as to human carcinogenicity.


In terms other exposures, the concern is spray drift from farming areas. Traces can sometimes be found in ground water. Mild exposure hasn't really produced enough data to determine the risks. It's mostly an occupational hazard, like anything that involves working with chemicals.
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#91932 - 08/16/14 06:50 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
theharkonnen Offline
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Registered: 12/03/13
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Again, there was once not enough reports about smoking and cancer to deem it harmful. Same with cell phones.

Only time will tell. Until then, I walk on the side of caution and prudence. A wait and see approach.

Of course, they say sitting is the new smoking. If so, I am screwed, lol.


Edited by theharkonnen (08/16/14 06:51 PM)

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#91956 - 08/17/14 08:46 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: theharkonnen]
luz Offline
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Registered: 08/06/14
Posts: 136
Veganism can can kill a cat for sure ( link ). Dogs can live on vegan diet veterinaries say ( link ).

About people, well there vegans and they are not dying so obviously it doesn't kill them. But in my opinion people are different in terms of what is the best diet for them. So for some people I believe vegan diet is not good, while other can tolerate it.

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#92741 - 09/08/14 03:45 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: luz]
theharkonnen Offline
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I don't know. After getting used to non-meats, I find that meat does not taste as good anymore. Unless I just got sick of it.
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#93510 - 10/05/14 11:58 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: theharkonnen]
mountaingoat Offline
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Registered: 05/08/10
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Last year, at the request of my doctor, I gave up red meat for about six months and drastically cut down on the amount of animal fat that I ingested. In a very short amount of time, my skin got very dry and sensitive, and my immune system went to hell. After a few months, my quality of sleep deteriorated substantially. Around the fourth week of being back on my normal diet, all of these conditions began improving rapidly. I am definitely put together in a way that requires animal protein/fat to maintain good health.
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#93512 - 10/06/14 04:23 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: mountaingoat]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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As long as I'm linking interesting KPFA interviews, give a listen to this one this past Saturday morning about the relationship of overweight to sugar.
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#93522 - 10/06/14 02:55 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: mountaingoat]
theharkonnen Offline
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I think this may have to do with the fact that you seem to have done it all of a sudden. I suspect meat is like a drug. If you cut it out all of a sudden, there will be withdrawal symptoms. My diet changed slowly over time. First, I added a vegetable drink to my diet while maintaining everything else. Then, over time, I cut down on meat, as my body no longer needed it as much. I still eat meat, but not as much as I used to.
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#93524 - 10/06/14 07:40 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: theharkonnen]
mountaingoat Offline
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Well, I didn't cut meat out of my diet, I just cut out red meat. I still don't eat very much red meat, but I try to eat three or four servings of fatty meat per week. When I was on the restricted diet however, my hands and feet were extremely dry and cracked and my face would get wind burnt working outside in the snow very easily. I personally think it's a good excuse to not go outside when the temperature drops below freezing, but a more practical solution seems to be eating bacon.
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#93526 - 10/07/14 01:47 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: mountaingoat]
Kemble Offline
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Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 139
Michael is right: there seems to be something strongly linking high sugar consumption with obesity. Robert Lustig lecture Sugar: The Bitter Truth gives details. I've found Paul Jaminet's Perfect Health Diet a pretty good pointer on dieting.

There is no diet that fits everyone. Ultimately you should find out what works for you and relax! It should be a fun exploration. Getting uptight about food is silly.

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#102086 - 08/06/15 02:47 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Kemble]
Sargeist Offline
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Registered: 02/20/15
Posts: 358
Loc: Chile
I wanted to know your thoughts on Cecil's death by an american odontologist. Is it a condemnable action or not? Personally I don't particularly enjoy the decimation of endangered species, especially by those who feel the need to prove how manly they are.
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#102102 - 08/07/15 08:27 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Stick Offline
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Registered: 06/08/12
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Loc: Benelux
These are the "facts" I do know about, and use in my work as an personal trainer.

It is possible to live your life as a vegan in a healthy way and even being an athlete.
Thing is it takes a lot of knowledge and time to prepare your meals.
You need to make sure you hit every day at least the 1 gram protein per kg lean body weight which is not that easy because protein/carbohydrate ratio is not in favor of the protein. And not only that, you need to make account for the right ratio of amino acids, which means you have to weigh and calculate with charts to obtain this information.
Just eating some beans and a cucumber and rice will not do the job.

Being healthy as a vegetarian in sport or hard physically work takes away at least the amino ratio calculation, but still means you have to take care to hit the 1 g/kg ratio.

For a meat/fish eater, (if not being a top athlete), hitting the 1g protein per kg is a piece of cake.
The meat, fish, chicken and milk proteins are superior in amino acid ratio, calculation of this can be dropped and the concern of not getting enough protein every day is with a little sense no concern no more.

Conclusion is, eating meat is not necessary for a healthy life,
but makes getting enough nutrients (proteins and fats) less of a concern.

New concern is, getting to much of it, and getting fat.

S.

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#102129 - 08/08/15 09:07 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Stick]
Satanic Princess Offline
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"If you love animals so much, why do you eat their food?"

I personally could never be vegetarian, let alone vegan. I love my meat too much. I also become anemic way, way too quickly and get sick on iron pills to consider a vegetarian lifestyle.

Vegan lifestyle is very unhealthy in my opinion. We are made to eat meat. We are omnivores.

I get sick of vegans (online) who tell me that I must hate animals to eat them... I do not hate animals. My dogs and cats are treated like kings and queens and my chooks (chickens) get free range of the backyard whenever they please.
Heck, I'd eat human if I got the opportunity too. Just out of curiosity.
I've heard it tastes like veal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWAF9PgDg2c

Oh well, I seek out these vegans online for a giggle, it's my fault lol.
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#102135 - 08/08/15 11:43 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Satanic Princess]
Stick Offline
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Registered: 06/08/12
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 Originally Posted By: Satanic Princess

Vegan lifestyle is very unhealthy in my opinion. We are made to eat meat. We are omnivores.


We evolved so that eating meat will give the right amount of nutrients for a active lifestyle in a easy way.

A body does not care if the source is vegetable based or from diary, fish, meat or even chemical source,
As long you hit the right amount of carbohydrates, amino acids (proteins) and fats + micro nutrients)

Being a vegan or vegetarian does not harm health, even without taking supplements, but it is important to be very strict in what sources of vegetarian products you eat, being aware of the macro nutrients (carbohydrates proteins, amino acids, ratios and fats)
and micro nutrients (vitamins and minerals).
Vegetable sources can deliver these, but only if you have the knowledge and effort to apply these.
Which means a large portion of a vegan his or her day will be absorbed with preparing meals weighing, cooking, doing groceries and eating.

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#102479 - 08/27/15 06:21 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Stick]
Friend of zoogs Offline
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I have been a Vegan for 23 years. I have avoided all the medical problems of my sick family. All of them are on multiple medications every day while I am on none. Overweight, high blood pressure, diabetes, by-pass surgery, joint failure, hyper-tension, fatigue, and on and on. I have all the same genetic baggage without any of the problems. Even premature grey/white hair runs in my family...not me. The difference is diet and diet alone. The skinny, weak, sickly vegan stereo-type is, not me. I could loose a few pounds anyway. So if a person "Needs" meat to be healthy and survive and thrive, I suspect they don't need very much.
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#102480 - 08/27/15 07:03 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Friend of zoogs]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
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General question to vegetarians/vegans:

With all candor, what was the deciding factor to give up meat? Animal rights? Chemically pumped factory processing?

Personally, I don't see the issue with cultivating animals for resources. I don't get the mindset that demonizes even hunting a species to extinction for their decorative ivory. To me, it smacks of, "we are above the rest animal kingdom so we have some duty to protect it". All the while overlooking that much of what people consume are from animals that wouldn't exist if not to provide me with baby back ribs.

I can respect a person if the want to take a stand against an evil they see in the world, but if it takes a conscious effort to supplement lost nutrients with 'alternatives' is it even natural?

IMO If you want to take a stand against something we consume go after corn syrup.


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#102481 - 08/27/15 07:23 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: CanisMachina42]
Friend of zoogs Offline
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Concerned about what's natural? My motivating force was pussy. Straight up. However, after the fact, I have been awakened to the benefits afforded me. It certainly isn't because I think bunnys are cute. I will not go out of my way to kill anything. If I can avoid it, I do. I catch spiders and flies and put them outside my house, but I also know that ever time I drive somewhere, creatures are going to die. I'm ok with that, shit has to get done. The problem with your babyback ribs is quality of product.

I don't like corn syrup either. Heavy weight on our society.
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#102483 - 08/27/15 08:07 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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You're conflating Vegetarianism with being Vegan. Vegetarians (especially those on a Greek diet) do consume animal proteins. Vegans do not. So it's not as if supplements are the only way to go to get nutrients. I'm an on-again/off-again Vegetarian. Nothing at all to do with moral outrage. It's more of a digestion issue. Based on my system, I often wonder if it's 'natural' to eat meat at all (a few cousins suffer from it as well).

When I'm on-again, I basically cut out all meat, as in animal flesh. When I'm off-again, it's just read meat. I still eat fish, chicken and pork.

While the former is ideal for everything from defecation to clearing up my skin. The latter is just convenient. I did do a Vegan diet one Summer as a test subject for a culinary arts program. It's amazing what a decent chef can do with Vegan food items and amazingly you can get everything you need but meals obviously need to be more elaborate than lazy.

So maybe meat is just the easiest, the most accessible and convenient thing.

When you boil it down, it's all just chemistry. If you combine foods in the right measure, you don't have to take supplements. I have been Vitamin D deficient and was prescribed supplement but I'm terrible at that. So I opted for foods rich in Vitamin D. No longer deficient.
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#102484 - 08/27/15 08:14 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Friend of zoogs Offline
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It's not nearly as hard as people think. I'm not deficient in anything according to my most recent doctor visit, and I have them check for a lot. Vitamin d, vitamin b12, and others not to bore you. But a lot of potato chips and beer seem to get the job done. I do love vegetables and that is the plus, being a vegan you sort of have to like a salad.

As far as dairy goes...it's the worst shit there is to eat. You may as well eat shit. Actually you are eating shit.
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#102485 - 08/27/15 08:27 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Loc: San Diego, CA
'Vegetarian' withdrawn, but there is just one more thing...

I always had the assumption that vegetarians exclude eating meat (all meat), as that is the definition, and vegans exclude all animal products as indicated by the above condemnation of animal lactose.

That sort of seems like a misnomer. If you still eat certain animals isn't it just a controlled diet based on personal preference?

Why even adopt the label if you can't commit!

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#102486 - 08/27/15 08:34 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: CanisMachina42]
Friend of zoogs Offline
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Registered: 02/07/15
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well most Vegans would even exclude leather and to whatever extreme they might take it. Hell even the old 35mm film has gelatin in it (thank Jesus for digital cameras) so the label is more for you than it is for her, I think. Why would anyone even care who ate what? Eat what you want, if I think you're silly why would you care?



Edited by Friend of zoogs (08/27/15 09:22 PM)
Edit Reason: no changes after all...
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#102487 - 08/27/15 08:39 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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Ha, well a Greek Vegetarian diet is thousands of years old and followed the seasons of the hunt (fish being the meat product). Maybe Vegetarianism has suffered its own lapse into Postmodernism? Like I said it's an on-again/off-again thing, the label isn't important to me. Plenty of vegetarians abstain from flesh but then eat Eggs or other animal based products (for the Amino Acids). They also don't always abstain for moral reasons, or saving little animals. It's more of a Health concern than one of Morals and Ethics. Vegans abstain from ANY product that is derived from animals.

It's a carry-over from a time of vehement animal activism. Today, the buzz word is "flexarian" the sometimes Vegetarian. Fasting periods are including in that categorization.

 Originally Posted By: FoZ
Vegans would even exclude leather and to whatever extreme they might take it.
Even including crazy shit like some glues and constantly stressing out over animal testing products. It's all mind junk. Not my concern.

 Originally Posted By: Canis
I think Vegetarianism should be kept pure.


Then they should be eating fish.


Edited by SIN3 (08/27/15 08:45 PM)
Edit Reason: Time Machine!
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#102488 - 08/27/15 08:41 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Friend of zoogs]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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If your gonna do something do it the right way. I think Vegetarianism should be kept pure. There are a lot of pseudo-vegetarians that adopt the label as a way to establish identity, but don't actually live it, and it waters down the form (Vegetarianism) to mean anything they want. That's why!
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#102489 - 08/27/15 09:33 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: CanisMachina42]
Sargeist Offline
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Registered: 02/20/15
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I don't really see the point in killing an endangered species just to feel more "macho." It'd be macho if you killed the lion in self defense with only a spoon for a weapon.

On the other hand...

Wait, there's more.

Still, hunting endangered species is never gonna be ok with me, especially pandas. I really like pandas.


Edited by Sargeist (08/27/15 09:34 PM)
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#102490 - 08/27/15 10:03 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
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Well, that went right the fuck over your head.

Anyway...

I'd say pandas (unlike the black bear) failed the evolutionary test. Simple.

It's not that it's macho (or even a subset of false bravado), it's what dictates why I should abhor this behavior to begin with.

Let me just ask, why is it anyone's responsibility to protect endangered animals? Is there an entitlement clause of the superior human somewhere that compels them?

All organisms serve a role in an ecosystem...

Humans: If earth is the host, then humans are a parasite. That became man's roll when it started farming. Any tenuous symbiosis ceased to exist when the ocean's salinity started to change. What needs to be faced is it's already too late, and regardless of how many species die off each day, saving 1% because we find them adorable isn't going to change a thing.

As I wrote this a reptile in the Amazon just died off.

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#102499 - 08/28/15 08:42 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: CanisMachina42]
Sargeist Offline
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Loc: Chile
 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42


Let me just ask, why is it anyone's responsibility to protect endangered animals? Is there an entitlement clause of the superior human somewhere that compels them?


If there isn't an entitlement to protect them, why is there an entitlement to hunt them?

I do not feel "entitled" to care about endangered species, I do it because I want to, plain and simple.

I forgot to mention that adult pandas have no natural predators in their habitat, the only threat they have are us parasites.

Hardly evolutionary failures if you ask me.


Edited by Sargeist (08/28/15 09:04 AM)
Edit Reason: Added info.
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#102500 - 08/28/15 09:25 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
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So personal preference, fair enough.

The point I'm getting at is, "What switched between the 19th century (when we hunted the Buffalo to near extinction) and this brave new world of cursory environmental surveys?"

While I don't personally hunt (have no need), and actually quite enjoy nature, I don't see how for profit hunting isn't also a part of nature. It just another selfish animal behavior.

*Note - It is harder than one might think to argue against The Endangered Species Act.

It smacks of this we are 'special chosen creatures' mentality. Why isn't it, "If we are so fucking special, then our species earned that privilege to slaughter all of Gaia's fluffy creatures with wild abandon."

Guilt... and it's this culture's 'standard' behavior to atone for all the environmental sins of man through compulsory environmentalism. Go green damnit!


Edited by CanisMachina42 (08/28/15 09:36 AM)
Edit Reason: learn to proofread

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#102502 - 08/28/15 09:43 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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 Originally Posted By: Canis
Guilt... and it's this culture's 'standard' behavior to atone for all the environmental sins of man through compulsory environmentalism. You must recycle damnit!


Right? Seriously though, you're operating from the presupposition that a person has to care about animals or the environment because of some entitlement attitude, or being coerced through societal conditioning. They don't. On a one to one basis, you may find that reasons are quite selfish as well as quite natural.


I've hunted. I eat meat. I use products that are either made from animal byproducts or have been tested on animals. Yet, I still like to see animals in the wild, left alone to be wild. Check my photo gallery on my website, you'll see me taking countless pictures of animals and insects. I think it's more or less a reminder of the living world, apart from the industry and technology that drowns it out. If every animal and insect were to disappear, would you miss them? Contemplate their used-to-be existence? Maybe for a while then bam, back to Apathy. It's that weird human quality I find most fascinating. I mean, does every animal activist shed a tear over road kill? I doubt it.
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#102518 - 08/28/15 07:50 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Friend of zoogs Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 72
Loc: MN
I find it interesting why people identify with certain creatures and think the rest of them you can just kill and eat or do whatever to. Like "dolphin free tuna" or Panda bears. Some creatures by their nature capture human compassion and interest but others are found disgusting.

No one says "save the rat". How about the lamprey?
they all have value to me. I would miss them. Consider the Ichneumon wasp.
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#102522 - 08/28/15 09:52 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Of course.

I too am an admirer of nature doing what nature does, and like seeing it left alone. Especially environments where domesticated humans are in the middle of the food chain.

As far as endangered species goes, I actually have no opinion one way or the other. It was worth it for the personal amusement, though. I call it 'Environmental Nihilism'.


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#102523 - 08/28/15 10:28 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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These were taken a couple of years ago, little bastard wasn't giving up, not even when swarmed by Crows. When I posted them initially, the amount of people rooting for the Robin trumped those in favor of the Crows. Wasn't exactly shocking.

The endangerment of species doesn't bother me. It's a natural progression that man develops technology to become a proficient killer, just one of our many attributes. Sentimentalism among them, until you're faced with a predator animal and that shit's out the window. Most people would shit their pants or freeze in terror waiting for the inevitable.

Cockroaches are fascinating considering their survival and fast tracked evolution but you know damn well if you find them in your home you'd kill them on site. Once people starting bedazzling the hissing roach and wearing them like jewelry, ffs. Now they're fucking gourmet.

The wheel keeps turning, forwards and back. Pretty damn natural.

 Originally Posted By: FoZ
Some creatures by their nature capture human compassion and interest but others are found disgusting.


I'd chalk that up to lookism. It's usually the sort that are cute that get the most admiration (like the Robin). The uglier or creepier the species, you get less sentiment in their favor.

I still catch and release spiders and moths that make it into my house, until they annoy me or get into something, bam, dead. Without even a second thought. Right back to apathy.
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#102666 - 09/07/15 05:24 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Sargeist Offline
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Loc: Chile
One thing that bugs me though are zoos. What's the point of them? We don't get to see animals in their actual habitats, they look all miserable and most of the time the management doesn't even try to care for them properly. At least that's what happens in my country.

Why do we need zoos in the first place?
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#102668 - 09/07/15 05:58 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
antikarmatomic Offline
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Well, I can't speak for the entirety of my country - I do agree that zoos are a lil "WTF?"... but like right out here, all of these animals are injured - they simply wouldn't be able to survive in the wild, and it's not because they were born in captivity, or whatever, they're just "borked".

Ducks that'll never fly again, emus that I sneak up to and share my blunt with (whatever, their eyes are already red, and they seem to like it - they 'my boys! speaking of which I want a chocobo - I would trade my car in for one in a heart beat) there's owls, and peacocks, a few raccoons, etc - they all got their own cages, where people just feed (or throw at) them random pellets and chips... but the point is they're broken... so it's sorta "charity", really - and it gives the kids something to do.

You can meet a lot of single mothers there - if so inclined.


Edited by antikarmatomic (09/07/15 06:15 PM)
Edit Reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3gmoFTe_BQ
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#102669 - 09/07/15 11:08 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: antikarmatomic]
Sargeist Offline
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That seems more practical, they give disabled animals a place to rest and there's at least some interaction.

These zoo businesses can hardly be called "successful" if they keep treating their moneymakers like shit. People don't want to spend money to see a miserable lion or an anxious monkey. At least not for long.


Edited by Sargeist (09/07/15 11:08 PM)
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#102672 - 09/08/15 10:45 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
SIN3 Offline
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I felt that way as a child. I thought it was cruel to keep animals in captivity that way, chalk it up to empathy. You tend to outgrow sentiment.

The Zoological Society here in VA has changed drastically since the first zoo was built in Hampton Roads in 1900 ( LINK) . When it started, it was for spectacle. People from all over the region would visit to view these exotic animals on display. Today, it's for conservation and education. If you buy-in to a membership, funding supports animal care and exhibits. Over the last 2 decades, you can see the progress by improvements to habitats and the overall health of the animals. That zoo was pretty run down when I first moved here. Doesn't even look like the same zoo. The local rich play a pinnacle role in that, complete with donation recognition. So the perks are win/win, if you care about zoo upkeep and the animals incarcerated there. People are people, so you'll get the occasional case of neglect or abuse of animals.

PETA has it's home base here, so every now and then you get to watch those batshit crazy people, much like a zoo spectacle. Anytime a new animal is brought to a zoo or the circus comes to town, you can bet your ass PETA will be there with their propaganda.

More recently, the org filed against local zoos ( LINK). Most of the time, I don't think people understand animal behavior. A local gal made a big stink over (2) Ostrich that were seemingly attacking each other and the zoo keeper wasn't preventing it. This was a mating ritual but she blew it out of proportion and got PETA involved.

Thing is, some 'activism' isn't taken seriously because of extremism so when there is a real issue, it may be dismissed as people being hysterical over nothing.

From your own point of view, would you consider it immoral or unethical to keep animals in zoos?
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#102677 - 09/08/15 02:29 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Sargeist Offline
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To be honest I've never read anything related to ethics so I can't really give an opinion on that. As for being immoral I'd say it depends: If the animals are well kept and seem happy then that'd be ok, otherwise it'd be like hunting down a bear just to have a new rug (and even more financially detrimental.)

On the other hand, it seems that a lot of animal defenders don't really spend much time with other creatures except domestic pets and I've never seen them fighting for aesthetically unpleasant animals such as the Deep Sea Viper fish.
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#102678 - 09/08/15 02:43 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
SIN3 Offline
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Do you believe you need to read up on Ethics to have an ethic?

 Quote:
it'd be like hunting down a bear just to have a new rug (and even more financially detrimental.)


Is it unethical to hunt an animal for its fur? What is the 'right' and 'wrong' of it?
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#102682 - 09/08/15 02:57 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
mountaingoat Offline
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I don't like to go to zoos because it bums me out to see lions in fake savannahs and sharks rubbing upagainst the glass of their aquarium because they don't know what the fuck an aquarium is. But, where I grew up, in Cincinnati, they used to have Africans in the zoo in their "natural habitat" for people to come look at and jeer. It doesn't take too much of a leap to say "If I shouldn't throw popcorn at a human and yell at him to do tricks, then maybe I shouldn't do that to other animals."

I know that zoos are the last and best hope of saving some of the endangered species on this planet, but it still kind of bums me out to see a dead chicken get tossed through a slot in the wall for a komodo dragon to eat. I would rather be that lizard's meal in his home territory than to see him reduced to prison rations.

And, let me just say, I am a hunter. I have no problem with killing animals responsibly for food, or even legitimate safety, but, well I'll just say it again, zoos just really bum me out.
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#102709 - 09/10/15 11:45 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: mountaingoat]
SIN3 Offline
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I'd just call that Empathy. It reminds me of a photo slide show I viewed this morning: LINK



The lioness takes in the baby Baboon, even defends it against male Lions. She appears to empathize with having lost its own Mother. Ordinarily it may have just been food.

In the same way, ordinarily these animals would be in their natural environments dealing with the day to day stuff (live or die).



Spider Monkey hands and feet look really similar to those of humans. Seeing them behind the glass is like seeing yourself there.
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#102747 - 09/12/15 06:27 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Sargeist Offline
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Loc: Chile
 Originally Posted By: SIN3

Is it unethical to hunt an animal for its fur? What is the 'right' and 'wrong' of it?


It is wrong to me because man's superiority is hardly evident by just pulling a trigger and getting a new fur carpet. Sure, men invented guns therefore you could say mankind is superior to animals but that'd be much generalization, don't you think? I never heard about anyone wrestling bears to death.

If I enter a hunter's house I won't think by looking at the "trophies" that he or she is hot stuff, rather that said person is just overcompensating for something else.


Edited by Sargeist (09/12/15 06:30 PM)
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#102779 - 09/14/15 11:00 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
SIN3 Offline
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Isn't that just downplaying man's intellectual prowess in comparison? It's not like animals are adapting to man-made weaponry (whether gun, arrow, spear or trap). What's unethical about it? I own several furs and couldn't care less who skinned the animal to enjoy it. Where are all the animal defenders at the gates of furriers?

I'd say it's pretty evident.



Maybe you disagree that this is a sign of man's superiority but is it any more superior to pluck a carrot from the ground and eat it? To display self-righteous indignation about using animals at our disposal?
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#102787 - 09/14/15 07:23 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
Friend of zoogs Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 72
Loc: MN
 Originally Posted By: Sargeist
[quote=SIN3]
Is it unethical to hunt an animal for its fur? What is the 'right' and 'wrong' of it?


? I never heard about anyone wrestling bears to death.

Look up Hugh Glass. As far as it being "ethical" who's to judge?
I think a bear hunted for it's fur is a more "ethical" situation than a fox raised in a cage and harvested for it's skin. If a guy wants to go hunting that's his prerogative, but factory farming seems wrong to me. I don't think people hunt to show their superiority. The hunters I know didn't take their trophies to impress you, they did it for themselves and if you are uncomfortable about it, I suspect, more for the better.

As I stated before I am a Vegan (although I think veganism is a spectrum with some more to the left than the right) but I have a friend who goes deer hunting with a spear and always has success. I respect his prowess and even though I won't partake of offered steaks, I am glad he is able to do what he does.
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#102796 - 09/15/15 04:04 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Sargeist Offline
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Well I always believed (as the rest of the world does too it seems) that americans liked to hunt animals just to show how tough they are.

On the other hand, I'm not sure people would rally up and defend this little fella if his species were threatened.

Maybe there'll come a day when we need our hunting skills again and 80% of the human population will be fucked for not knowing how to aim at a deer. I'm not sure I want to be in that group.


Edited by Sargeist (09/15/15 04:05 PM)
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#102800 - 09/15/15 05:45 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
SIN3 Offline
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Geez, what a myopic viewpoint to hold. 'Americans' hunt for many reasons, not to just show off their prowess. In some regard it's a blood sport but plenty of people still hunt to eat. The domestication of animals for wholesale slaughter has given the impression that we all just shop for meat which isn't the case. Many families, especially when money is tight, hunt for meat to supplement their diet over the Fall/Winter months. I've lived in quite a few rural areas over the years where hunting was a staple. Even took it up myself for the experience. Grocery Meat was considered a last resort in many families. It just doesn't fit their budget so seasonal hunts are a necessity not an option.

I think you're getting hung up on the media blitz over the latest game hunt (Cecil the Lion).

Again? We need them now. I opt out of deer hunting season around here because I'm not eating a whole lot of meat. When I had a heavy meat diet, there was always deer in my freezer. Plus, I enjoy the soft hides of deer skin. Shit is like butter. I have quite a few outfits made from their hides. Doesn't mean I don't squee over baby deer, they are adorable and I empathize with their struggle to live. Don't we all struggle in some capacity? Empathy/Apathy is flighty and circumstantial, IMO.

My concerns are not of an ethical nature when it comes to nixing meat in my diet. Veganism as being a cause of death is more or less focused on not eating properly for one's principles. How strongly do you feel for animals? Enough to sacrifice your own life for them?
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#102806 - 09/15/15 08:58 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Sargeist Offline
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Loc: Chile
Many people give food for granted and as you mention, empathy is pretty discriminating since nobody can feel it for every single living being out there, someone always loses and it seems people in and out the US choose to feel for the hunted rather than the hunter. It's the same with that lion, people side with him instead of the africans getting eaten by them and yet act outraged when Europe denies entry to these people since they "have a right" to have a better life after those "capitalists tyrants" plundered their land.

It's a funny thing really.

As for veganism, I did a long search a couple years ago on anything that could discredit their diet. Couldn't find anything at all.



Edited by Sargeist (09/15/15 09:00 PM)
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#102822 - 09/16/15 11:55 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
Mx Wyllow Offline
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Registered: 09/03/15
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My opinion is this, and its pretty logical: Unless you plan to eat it or it is attacking you (and that rarely happens unless you were being an idiot), you have no reason to kill an animal. Hunting for sport is unnecessary barbarism, and is basically a d*ck waving contest (regardless of your gender).

Me, I think hunting is, in a way, more moral than buying your meat from a store that probably got it from those factory farms that abuse animals. Because at least the animal died free.

And to say having the ability to use weapons gives Humans an unfair advantage is like saying a Cheetah's speed is an unfair advantage.

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#102844 - 09/16/15 07:40 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Mx Wyllow]
Sargeist Offline
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Loc: Chile
 Originally Posted By: Mx Wyllow
Because at least the animal died free.

And to say having the ability to use weapons gives Humans an unfair advantage is like saying a Cheetah's speed is an unfair advantage.


Despite lasting less than five (figurative) minutes here, those words do hold some truth to them. There are definitely more painful ways for an animal to go. And a human needs his intellect to know how to shoot indeed, it'd take a while for an ape to figure it out (if he ever does).
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#102845 - 09/16/15 07:46 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
Friend of zoogs Offline
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Registered: 02/07/15
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 Originally Posted By: Sargeist
Many people give food for granted and as you mention, empathy is pretty discriminating since nobody can feel it for every single living being out there, someone always loses and it seems people in and out the US choose to feel for the hunted rather than the hunter. It's the same with that lion, people side with him instead of the africans getting eaten by them and yet act outraged when Europe denies entry to these people since they "have a right" to have a better life after those "capitalists tyrants" plundered their land.

It's a funny thing really.

As for veganism, I did a long search a couple years ago on anything that could discredit their diet. Couldn't find anything at all.


did that lion eat someone? I don't see any conflict with holding the idea that this lion killed is a tragedy and yet maintaining the opinion that we should/should not be concerned for the refugee status of someone fleeing danger. People are complex enough that not all their ideas need to somehow create some consistent crystalline pattern.
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#102846 - 09/16/15 08:00 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Friend of zoogs]
Sargeist Offline
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My post had more to do with how people perceive empathy as all-encompassing thing (it isn't) rather than cognitive dissonance.

Most would like to pretend that we can put ourselves in everyone else's (including animals) shoes, when there's overwhelming evidence showing that we all discriminate. It's impossible to care about every single being out there.


Edited by Sargeist (09/16/15 08:00 PM)
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#102861 - 09/17/15 09:46 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
SIN3 Offline
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Only, the animal didn't die free. It's pinned to the same system the rest of us are. If a man can track and kill an animal in the 'free', how is that environment separate from that of the man's?

Maybe the lion knows it's being tracked by instinct but still goes down with the pop of a gun. I'd just call that the natural pecking order. Likewise, men are killed by other men. It's all natural. Go Freedom!

 Originally Posted By: Sargeist
My post had more to do with how people perceive empathy as all-encompassing thing (it isn't) rather than cognitive dissonance.
One can still have empathy and kill what they feel for. This is so often the case with vengeance, and any kill fueled by passion (also applies to society's so-called psychopaths). Societal expectations about Empathy are only relevant when a man is trapped, caged and the cattle prod used to force him into submission. In all cases there is a sense of care. The expectation that you should care about strangers and hold specific views about them is just that - an expectation. Read any news article featuring a human tragedy story, read the comments. In spite of that expectation, it won't be met. People will often make light of the situation, crack jokes, and even criticize the person at the center of the tragedy. Without the constraints of a cage, man will be what he is.

 Originally Posted By: Shimpy
you have no reason to kill an animal. Hunting for sport is unnecessary barbarism, and is basically a d*ck waving contest (regardless of your gender).


Interesting choice of words eh? Barbarians! There's always a reason, even if another person disagrees. Besides, what's wrong with waiving your dick around anyway? I'll never understand the (alleged Satanist) view of holding dissent against Vanity . Head back to church, say a few Hail Mary's and call it a day. Repent you vain creature! Repent!
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#102867 - 09/17/15 12:23 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Sargeist Offline
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Registered: 02/20/15
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Loc: Chile
I still find it difficult to understand that sort of empathy. Can one really put oneself in the place of the person about to be killed/punished? Feel their fear and pain? What does one make of it?
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#102916 - 09/19/15 10:46 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
witch Offline
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Registered: 08/04/14
Posts: 52
There's a certain kind of worm that , when food is scarce, stops laying its eggs and keeps them inside it. Then, the eggs break inside the worm and feed from it.
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#102924 - 09/20/15 07:59 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Loc: Virginia
I'm sure you understand the emotions associated with the fear of death, pain from conflict, and causal stressors. In the case of a person being punished or killed for a 'crime', have you switched emotional seats? "Save him!" or "Kill him!"

What do you make of it when you do so?
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#102951 - 09/21/15 05:43 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Sargeist Offline
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Registered: 02/20/15
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Loc: Chile
I do understand pain, fear and anxiety. However I could never think of anything other than "kill the fuck" when learning about an incoming execution in the US (we don't have death penalty in Chile, though some wish we did.) It wasn't until I learned from some US cable show that the person being executed wasn't always guilty of the crime that I begun to have my doubts on the whole thing (that and executions not being really effective at deterring crime.)

Also, I'm not fond of people who kill pregnant women (nor those who incite them) so I can't see myself in their shoes.

Strange thing is that I just begun judo lessons a few weeks ago and I've yet to feel anything when wrestling with opponents. Maybe it's empathy I lack?

I can "empathize" when somebody's on death row due to murder by self defense, but it doesn't seem to be something common.


Edited by Sargeist (09/21/15 05:44 PM)
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#102961 - 09/22/15 11:43 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Loc: Virginia
Could it be that you're so far removed from the situation that you just get caught up in idealizing the thing?

I'd think you'd respond quite differently if you could find a more personal connection (say for example a family member stands accused of killing a pregnant woman).

 Quote:
Strange thing is that I just begun judo lessons a few weeks ago and I've yet to feel anything when wrestling with opponents. Maybe it's empathy I lack?


It's safe. How do you think you'd feel being cornered in some dark alley with an opponent not knowing if he intends to kill you? If he's got you in an an arm bar choking you out and you've got a knife in your pocket, do you think you'd stab him or sacrifice yourself for his life?

I guess you'll never really know until faced with it.
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#102963 - 09/22/15 01:49 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Mx Wyllow]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1146
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Mx Wyllow
My opinion is this, and its pretty logical: Unless you plan to eat it or it is attacking you (and that rarely happens unless you were being an idiot), you have no reason to kill an animal. Hunting for sport is unnecessary barbarism, and is basically a d*ck waving contest (regardless of your gender).

Oh hi LaVey, nice to see you back. In all seriousness, I happen to agree with the man more than most, but I think that was one of his dumber opinions.

FYI, big game hunting licenses are issued as part of a comprehensive conservation plan. The animals targeted are usually on their last limb, and they may pose a risk to the remainder of the herd (e.g. they have a serious illness like rabies, they're so infirm that they slow down the herd making it vulnerable to predators and using up resources, etc). The proceeds from the sale of those licenses go to law enforcement against the poachers that indiscriminately hunt healthy animals for black market profit.

All in all, big game hunters do more for the conservation of endangered wildlife than sappy hippies. "No reason," indeed. The fact that you're unaware of any other reason to hunt doesn't mean there isn't one.

As for it being "unnecessary barbarism," even if it were, so fucking what? By what authority is barbarism only permitted out of necessity? Reminds me of a YouTube user who made a little activist PSA announcing that no one should watch the SAW films because they were "torture porn." It never occurred to him to make a case for why one shouldn't watch torture porn (even if it were fake)--he assumed that was self-evident. Never assume everyone shares your values.
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#102966 - 09/22/15 02:08 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Sargeist Offline
member


Registered: 02/20/15
Posts: 358
Loc: Chile
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Could it be that you're so far removed from the situation that you just get caught up in idealizing the thing?

I'd think you'd respond quite differently if you could find a more personal connection (say for example a family member stands accused of killing a pregnant woman).


My mom told me a few years ago that if I ever committed a crime and went to jail for it she wouldn't support me at all (I assume the exception would be if it was in self-defense) so if anyone close to me committed a crime that I'd find unjustifiable I'd cut all ties to them as well (or at least that's what I like to think).

Anyway, wasn't the question originally addressed to how can killers empathize with their victims?


Edited by Sargeist (09/22/15 02:11 PM)
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#102969 - 09/22/15 02:45 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
Sure, your Mom says so, until you're actually charged with a crime. Again, if you found yourself faced with a situation where your family member kills a pregnant lady, I guess you'll know then whether you have Empathy or not.
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#102972 - 09/22/15 03:45 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1162
Loc: San Diego, CA
 Quote:
a situation where your family member kills a pregnant lady, I guess you'll know then whether you have Empathy or not.


If they're conflicted they can always refer to the following to find out how much empathy they are suggested to have:

The Official Empathy/Victim Point Valuation System (2015 edition)

1 pt - John/Jane Doe
3 - Violent Criminals
5 - Adult Male age 19-64
10 - Adult Female (non-expecting) age 19-64
15 - Adult Male age 65+
25 - Adult Female age 65+
35 - Teenagers
50-75 Children age 0-12 (points on sliding age scale)
85 - Expectant Mothers (gains both Adult female and Children age 0 points)

Add +5 for each of the following: Veteran, Paralysis, LGBT
+10: Mentally Retarded, "In Line of Duty"
+25: Rape/Molestation + violent crime

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#102973 - 09/22/15 04:32 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Sargeist Offline
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Registered: 02/20/15
Posts: 358
Loc: Chile
And in the case of the killer, what could be the purpose of feeling their victim's pain, fear and anxiety (aside from pleasure)? What's the point of empathizing with the future roast beef?
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#102974 - 09/22/15 04:52 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
CanisMachina42 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1162
Loc: San Diego, CA
Amend previous post to include scale:

48-75 pts Children age 1-12 Sliding scale formula: X = 75-25×Log(n) [age 0 = 1 n = age]

*Missed edit cutoff, worth it for the satirical value.

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#102975 - 09/22/15 05:02 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
According to what? Cite and example of what you're referring to. Over-generalizing isn't useful here. Purpose implies that each killer had a specific goal that you obviously can't wrap your head around. Aren't there killers that don't simply derive pleasure from the act, and seek the attention of police because they actually want to be stopped?

Some acts masked as taunts are like a cry for help. It screams "Catch me because I'm addicted!"
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#102977 - 09/22/15 05:40 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Sargeist Offline
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Registered: 02/20/15
Posts: 358
Loc: Chile
So in other words Empathy is merely the act of putting oneself in the position of others regardless of motive (or lack thereof)?

I can see that a killer wanting to be stopped could put himself/herself in their victim's shoes and yet feel unable to stop their act, which could also sort of "justify" their desire to get caught.
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#102981 - 09/22/15 07:57 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: CanisMachina42]
Friend of zoogs Offline
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Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 72
Loc: MN
Everyone has their own version I suppose. I'll take yours as the "official" one, mine would have modifiers like;

person can fix a toilet, +5 points
person can shovel better than anyone +5 points
makes a nice sandwich +10
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#102982 - 09/22/15 08:04 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
Friend of zoogs Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 72
Loc: MN
I don't see how this empathy thing is so difficult. In practice maybe it is hard to understand but in theory, it seems pretty straight forward to me.

The interesting part is when you have empathy for things that most people don't because they find it so hard to employ the idea when the subject is difficult. Like a person who would kill a pregnant woman, or one of those worms...

As a side note, my mother would support me even if I was a CRIMINAL! So I have that going for me. Would it be out of line to ask if your mother is catholic?
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#103015 - 09/24/15 03:40 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Friend of zoogs]
Sargeist Offline
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Registered: 02/20/15
Posts: 358
Loc: Chile
Nope, I'd say she's more of a christian and hardly ever goes to mass.

I could understand the "reasons" said person(s) would have to kill a pregnant woman if she was perceived as a "privileged white actress" that deserved to die along with all the wealthy "pigs" of the world. Me? I don't give a fuck about "privileged" people and all the shit they have. Why should I envy them? Why force them to share with those who have less?
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#103186 - 10/03/15 12:11 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Sargeist]
mountaingoat Offline
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Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 471
Loc: Colorado
Sometimes people won't look at themselves or their lives until you shove a handful of pregnant actress blood into their face. And even then, it's a crap shoot if they got the right message. It's a shame that all of those clueless white people had to die, and people are still begging to hand their freewill over to the pigs.
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#103195 - 10/03/15 09:39 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Allison Teknon Offline
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Registered: 09/20/15
Posts: 24
My vegan friend is one of those militant types who say people who eat meat aren't spiritual. How can you be spiritual and consume flesh? Well, I consume flesh and have had supernatural results many times in in my life. Also, she states how much healthier she is than me because I'm fat. She just had a double masectomy due to breast cancer. I rarely get even a cold. She says she's vegan because she is cruelty free. Yet she's had several abortions. She'll kill her own kid in the womb but not eat a cow. I'm confused. Maybe it's just me. Maybe there is a vegan out there who can explain the logic, er, lack thereof.
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#103196 - 10/03/15 09:46 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Allison Teknon Offline
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Registered: 09/20/15
Posts: 24
If all power went out permanently all vegans would have to eat meat eventually, unless they all moved to tropical climates.
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#103420 - 10/15/15 06:48 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Allison Teknon]
Friend of zoogs Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 72
Loc: MN
I expect that it is almost pointless to respond to the two prior posts but...In reference to your friends weirdness, what does it really have to do with veganism? Let's not segue uncomfortably to an exchange about fetuses. There is no vegan who can speak for all vegans, does this sound familiar? Is not getting a cold the standard for health?

the second post, I translate as "if there was only mushrooms to eat, we would all eat mushrooms" I don't think that there is any content there. Turns out that there is power.
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#104285 - 12/09/15 06:25 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Ubermensch23 Offline
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Registered: 03/11/14
Posts: 131
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
If you're so smart, how come you're uneducated and probably poverty stricken?
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#104295 - 12/09/15 11:25 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
In what manner do you gauge my education? Are homeowners poverty stricken in your mind?

For conversation's sake, say I am both uneducated and poverish according to the established class-system in my country, so what? Is that an indicator that I'm not smart? What if it's a chosen lifestyle that you're just opining? In what manner would your opinion be relevant to my chosen lifestyle?

Maybe I live in a crack house, turn tricks and do meth on the regular... What's it to you?
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#104441 - 12/15/15 01:43 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Ubermensch23 Offline
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Registered: 03/11/14
Posts: 131
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
I like arguing with you since you always reply adequately. I very much doubt you are any of those things, sometimes i just enjoy 'trolling'people. Some of your posts tend to be narrow-minded, and so i tend to 'troll'you.

Education has a very small effect upon the IQ, so obviously should you have a lack thereof it would not necessarily mean you are not intelligent. Don't take my insults seriously ever, only the arguments if you would.

You're an attractive woman, I followed a link to your site, so i know you possess standards and ideals that you live your life by. I respect you for that, you're not the typical American woman. But your subjective reality (which is obviously based upon your personal experience and education) is not objective reality. Psychology is a very inefficient science.

For example, coming from a conservative country like South Africa(now a shithole fuck democracy), I obviously went to a psychologist along the line, during which this award-winning, internationally regarded psychologist gave me a form to fill in. This form was composed of questions regarding my behavior and opinions, i lied on them, and he actually believed me and tried to hypnotize me. He failed, but thought he succeeded, prescribed me strong anti-depressants that i tripped on for a month.

My point being, psychology itself is theoretical, it has never passed the theoretical phase and thus is not regarded as factual. 100 years ago, they still used to torture people by dipping them in water, holding them down their for a minute or more until somebody behaved better and declared it a cure for behavioral problems, they also still drilled holes in people's heads. Psychiatry though has a well-founded basis, but is by no means a way to understand somebody's mind, intentions etc. It's simply involved in the medical treatment of an individual according to a logical evaluation of the individual. Whether that be restraining them in a padded-cell, or just medicating them frequently.

I don't believe that you, a law-abiding(probably) woman, can fathom the mentality of these deranged killers. I don't think they intended to be caught, they probably simply didn't care if they were caught at all. In my opinion serial-killers are very boring, they are the most inferior form of killer, obsessed with the repetition of rituals and patterns that eventually get them caught.


Edited by Ubermensch23 (12/15/15 01:44 PM)
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#104442 - 12/15/15 02:05 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Ubermensch23
I like arguing with you since you always reply adequately. I very much doubt you are any of those things, sometimes i just enjoy 'trolling'people. Some of your posts tend to be narrow-minded, and so i tend to 'troll'you.


Then you should also know, I don't mind being trolled. Truly, I don't. I like trolls and a good trolling. Ideation can be wrought from such activity in my opinion. Even if most people regard trolls as the Satan's Satan.


 Quote:
Education has a very small effect upon the IQ, so obviously should you have a lack thereof it would not necessarily mean you are not intelligent. Don't take my insults seriously ever, only the arguments if you would.
I don't put much stock in IQ tests, I have no idea what my IQ is today, as I haven't had such a test since adolescence nor do I care. Why do you?

 Quote:
You're an attractive woman, I followed a link to your site, so i know you possess standards and ideals that you live your life by. I respect you for that, you're not the typical American woman. But your subjective reality (which is obviously based upon your personal experience and education) is not objective reality. Psychology is a very inefficient science.


I wouldn't even go as far as classifying it as a science at all, it's all quackery to me. Pseudo in that it tries to imitate scientific methods but it will never measure up.

The opinions expressed about serial killers in general (here and elsewhere) are just that, opinions and speculations on my part. I do find particular cases fascinating but mostly the cases of caught killers are boring. I enjoy the imaginings of those that are never caught, those are far more intriguing. Always present in any given society and how they choose their victims will remain a mystery to us.

 Quote:
For example, coming from a conservative country like South Africa(now a shithole fuck democracy), I obviously went to a psychologist along the line,
Why would that be obvious? Is it a requisite that SA's visit a psychologist at some point in their lives?

 Quote:
during which this award-winning, internationally regarded psychologist gave me a form to fill in. This form was composed of questions regarding my behavior and opinions, i lied on them, and he actually believed me and tried to hypnotize me. He failed, but thought he succeeded, prescribed me strong anti-depressants that i tripped on for a month.
Of course, all of these tests and talks can be manipulated because it isn't a hard science. The way these mental health workers dole out drugs just makes them legal drug dealers. I always find pills of any kind sketch for the side effects they can cause. I'll indulge from time to time but the habit stuff reeks of mental weakness.

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My point being, psychology itself is theoretical, it has never passed the theoretical phase and thus is not regarded as factual. 100 years ago, they still used to torture people by dipping them in water, holding them down their for a minute or more until somebody behaved better and declared it a cure for behavioral problems, they also still drilled holes in people's heads. Psychiatry though has a well-founded basis, but is by no means a way to understand somebody's mind, intentions etc. It's simply involved in the medical treatment of an individual according to a logical evaluation of the individual. Whether that be restraining them in a padded-cell, or just medicating them frequently.
I don't disagree, can you quote me having said otherwise?

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I don't believe that you, a law-abiding(probably) woman, can fathom the mentality of these deranged killers. I don't think they intended to be caught, they probably simply didn't care if they were caught at all. In my opinion serial-killers are very boring, they are the most inferior form of killer, obsessed with the repetition of rituals and patterns that eventually get them caught.


As I've stated, just my opinions and speculations. Though, I can say I'm quite familiar with derangement, I've had to endure a form of it from various relatives most of my life, until you have to just cut it off completely. I have become a loner by choice. Not because of some prescriptive sentiment in some book by some dead guy. It was just a natural conclusion to that particular chapter in my life.
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#104457 - 12/17/15 02:07 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Ubermensch23 Offline
member


Registered: 03/11/14
Posts: 131
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Good reply, the only thing that i will say is in regards to whether all South Africans go to she psychologists. My country is a piece of shit, almost literally, and even though Apartheid was more efficient economically and structurally, it was still christian. In my country you don't have religious rights. Not even the native african tribal shamanism and shamgomas are protected by the law, so it is legal to kill them. It's all good if you're a christian, jew or muslim, anything else you're fucked. So what i'm trying to to say, is that living in a country like this where I don't get to the experience the freedom your great constitution allows, a lot of people tend to get violent, and go crazy if you're not one of the sheep.

I was very good at sport in school, but i turned my back on it and turned back to metal and rpgs and stuff, so obviously in my country that's license to send you to a psychologist, i wasn't overly violent, i just started standing out and since you sign your rights away when signing up for school, they had the right to send me to a psychologist. I know it seems strange to you, but here it's really a regular occurrence. I do plan on moving to America eventually though after finishing studies. Lots of freedoms most take for granted, beautiful history, interesting people and so on. It's a lot like that case in America, where Damian Echols was falsely imprisoned for the murder of 2 children in Memphis for 28 years, except for the fact that here there aren't anybody that will make documentaries or movements to help you, if they decide you're guilty based on a different belief you're pretty much fucked.

And lastly, I believe IQ is relevant, but not in the sense that it exposes your intellectual ability, simply your intellectual potential, which is why Asiatic and European countries (and people) tend to be more successful than those on the bottom of the charts (blacks and aboriginals). That doesn't mean you don't get dumb white or asian people, but simply that it's more likely in africans.
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#104465 - 12/17/15 04:10 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
but i turned my back on it and turned back to metal and rpgs and stuff, so obviously in my country that's license to send you to a psychologist, i wasn't overly violent, i just started standing out and since you sign your rights away when signing up for school, they had the right to send me to a psychologist


Ahhh, that makes a bit more sense to me. I'm not oblivious to SA vs. US culture. Always been a bit of a fascination for me. I had some long-term pen pals in the mid 80's- 90's that would send me newspapers (Something I was told, that was very dangerous) and by the advent of Social Media, it's watching fish in a tank. Still, for both of us, it's still a limited view point until you're up in it.


I did quite a few podcasts with Léchané E. Piek (author of The Garden of Edom) and she claimed to be an Eastern Star (Masons) and several attempts were made on her life because of it. I don't know how much of her story is true but she did talk frequently about being a secret Luciferian and that 'Satanic Churches' were popping up all over South Africa. She claimed she was also forced into psyche evals as a minor but not so much as an adult.

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I do plan on moving to America eventually though after finishing studies. Lots of freedoms most take for granted, beautiful history, interesting people and so on.


Grass is Greener point of view. While there's less of a chance your neighborhood will come after you with machetes, we have our fair share of Witch Trials. Still, I'd much rather live here than there and don't take the 'freedom lite' stuff for granted.

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I believe IQ is relevant, but not in the sense that it exposes your intellectual ability, simply your intellectual potential, which is why Asiatic and European countries (and people) tend to be more successful than those on the bottom of the charts (blacks and aboriginals). That doesn't mean you don't get dumb white or asian people, but simply that it's more likely in africans.


I guess that depends on what you deem a success. In a capitalist society it's usually measured by material goods attained and wealth. How they're attained depends on your focus. Some buy into the 'American Dream', go to college, get a degree and then go work in their career field. Others, make just as much money if not more by hustling on the streets and what society would deem 'criminal' activity.

I've been on both sides of the fence and I can tell you, the potential is nurtured by many variables. In a family 'biz, it's usually the leader of the family that sets the game and calls the shots; until you learn well enough to be off on your own running your own crew. If you go the education route, you just keep going and paying until you learn the requirements to pass. Then, the shot-callers are heads of companies. Same/same if you ask me.
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#104495 - 12/19/15 04:41 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Ubermensch23 Offline
member


Registered: 03/11/14
Posts: 131
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Capitalism is the third best form of government in my opinion, after Monarchy and Dictatorship, and as I haven't grown up in such a stable country, material possessions are what I would base my definition of success upon.

I don't think it is the same at all, crime will always exist, but is largely aided by America's liberal values. I bet if you took an approach like that of Mozambique, where if one steals a hand is chopped off, or if one kills, rapes, or sell drugs you are executed, your crime rates would drop drastically. Fear is the only way to control people, not love and understanding. America used to understand this, but the liberal values in regards to leniency in terms of crime, illegal immigration and stupidity is driving it into the ground. I guess what i'm trying to say, is that those that succeed criminally are only successful because they are allowed to be, whilst hard-working peoples will always rise to the top since hard work is not something existent only due to tolerance and weakness, but through instilling fierce pride.

I am not familiar with the mentioned author, but will do some research, thank you for the information. Actually my ancestors were half-pagan half-reformist from the start, the Afrikaners, descendants of Dutch, German and French settlers escaping from Europe much like your ancestors. Working with Christians and blending in the attempt to build a better future. You should check out the Ossewa Brandwag and Siener Van Rensburg. In regards to Masonry, the large lodges here have existed since after the second Anglo-Boer war.


Edited by Ubermensch23 (12/19/15 04:42 PM)
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#104503 - 12/20/15 04:47 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1146
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Untermensch23
Capitalism is the third best form of government in my opinion, after Monarchy and Dictatorship

Capitalism is an economic model, not a system of government. That's like saying "Toyota is the third best color of car, after black and chrome."
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#104510 - 12/20/15 10:19 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Ubermensch23
Capitalism is the third best form of government in my opinion, after Monarchy and Dictatorship,


I get your meaning here, plenty of people feel like it's a slave-system. You can pay your thanks to the Babylonians as being the catalyst. Tribalism may have worked in smaller populations but as they grew and a demand for trade goods increased, a tracking system became necessary. At this point it's irreversible. I imagine in the not too distant future, it will just hit an Epoch and a change as survival means may become inevitable. Until such time, nations maintain class-system based on quantity.

 Quote:

and as I haven't grown up in such a stable country, material possessions are what I would base my definition of success upon.


Would you say that as a status symbol it affects your quality of life? Or, is it that it just provides creature comforts?

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I don't think it is the same at all, crime will always exist, but is largely aided by America's liberal values.
I suppose that depends on how you regard both economy/ethics and believe infractions should be dealt with.

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I bet if you took an approach like that of Mozambique, where if one steals a hand is chopped off, or if one kills, rapes, or sell drugs you are executed, your crime rates would drop drastically.
I doubt it. Fear is rarely if/ever a deterrent. In prior eras of American History, you could hung, subjected to brutal torture or shot on site and there was still crime.


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Fear is the only way to control people, not love and understanding.
Nah, the latter can equally be a controlling system. Both are equally wielded as a farce for an end game.

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America used to understand this, but the liberal values in regards to leniency in terms of crime, illegal immigration and stupidity is driving it into the ground.
The U.S. is far from a full-collapse for the reasons I mentioned. It's all manipulation which is why we mostly operate on credit and fiat money. Controlling populations is much like how the Romans dealt with an unruly crowd. The only thing that would really make the structure collapse and cause the fall of Rome, is when people en masse stop recognizing the governing system and rise up as a whole.

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I guess what i'm trying to say, is that those that succeed criminally are only successful because they are allowed to be, whilst hard-working peoples will always rise to the top since hard work is not something existent only due to tolerance and weakness, but through instilling fierce pride.
Key word there is 'allowed', organized crime is the fiber of this nation, always has been. Prohibition didn't last that long for this reason.

 Quote:
I am not familiar with the mentioned author, but will do some research, thank you for the information. Actually my ancestors were half-pagan half-reformist from the start, the Afrikaners, descendants of Dutch, German and French settlers escaping from Europe much like your ancestors. Working with Christians and blending in the attempt to build a better future. You should check out the Ossewa Brandwag and Siener Van Rensburg. In regards to Masonry, the large lodges here have existed since after the second Anglo-Boer war.


A compromise from within sort of deal? I guess that would depend on what you consider 'better' and in contrast to what. People can be easily tricked into supporting the very thing they despise by a promise of a better tomorrow.
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#104558 - 12/22/15 03:26 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Ubermensch23 Offline
member


Registered: 03/11/14
Posts: 131
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
I would say both in regards to your question regarding material wealth. I would also say that I'm pretty sure, that in the old America, before blacks were equals, and before liberal values plagued it, that America had far less crime when people were hung for crimes. So I believe I was correct, since there would be far less crime if the penalties for committing those crimes were less humane. The US is in decline, whether you would like to admit it or not, and liberalism, feminism and racial tolerance is a huge factor in that.

It's easy not to discriminate towards blacks when you don't come from South Africa (the most civilized country in Africa) where they still piss and shit in the streets, where they still believe raping babies cures aids, where they still believe that if a woman dresses promiscuously, you rape her. Until a feminist lives in a country with a real rape culture, like South Africa where 1 in 3 women are victims thereof, her word means nothing, her ideals are imaginary. Until a liberal lives in a country in Africa, with a non-white majority of inbred savages, his word and his ideals mean nothing, because like that of the feminist, it hasn't been tested in a real situation. The majority of blacks in America are biracial, not African, they are westernized, thus a little less beastly.

The western way of life is a superior way of life, as exhibited throughout history. Asians and Indians are equal, but if you think for a second that there is a single country that is better for having Africans within it's border, then you are terribly mistaken. Take Europe and China as two examples, where black immigrants contribute massively to crime. In 2008 the Swedish authorities said that 98% of crime in Sweden is committed by immigrants, and 100% of violent crime is committed by non-white immigrants, predominantly from Africa.

Liberalism can never be constructive, only destructive, that is my point. And lastly yes, at the time of the settlement there were compromises made, but obviously it never stayed that way. Apartheid though efficient, was still an extremely Christian country, except of course for Shinto and Judaism which were both allowed, since Jews and Japanese were considered legally white due to our national relations with both.


Edited by Ubermensch23 (12/22/15 03:28 PM)
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#104575 - 12/23/15 10:01 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
It seems you're taking both sides here. It's Liberalism in the U.S. that Blacks (having been kept back by whites for so long) became less beastly. Whites were quite savage until there was a system of tracking and a method for capture. Until then, it was pretty wild west over here. There was no real tracking of crime until much later and in spite of torture and death, it was still everywhere.

The same is true today, though the punishments can be viewed subjectively. At one time, death by firing squad was considered right and just, then it became 'cruel and unusual'. The same is true for public hangings. I think the last one on record was of a young black man that was accused of raping a white woman (20th century) and there was a lot of hoo-ha over it because the law was combating Lynch Mobs. Jim Crow was in place well into the 60's because the black man was considered 'savage' in relation to whites.

In spite of having a system for tracking and punishing crime, only the people that are caught suffer consequences. It's not that Law Enforcement is pansy (the newest trend here is Police Brutality and Corruption), instead it's because man is a beast and will do as he pleases if he's smart enough to avoid the tracking systems.

Even during the Civil Rights Movement, there was plenty of chaos and deaths. Post 'Equal Rights for All', people are still killed based on an Ethnic basis; only it's called 'Hate Crime' today. As to the matter of baby rape, check our crime stats. If you haven't been paying attention the child abuse rates are off the charts and include the molestation/rape/killing of small children.

There's plenty of the population that hold lowbrow understandings of the way things work in nature and hold superstitious beliefs that are responsible for death (Quack Medicine, Spiritual Practices, Cults, et. al).

Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying about the lawlessness of SA in spite of it being more civilized than other regions. All I'm pointing out here, is that the U.S. isn't paved in gold. We have all the same behaviors (including corrupt politics and systems of government) and any Liberal mindset hasn't exactly swept that stuff away. Liberalism is a double-edged sword in that regard. To a certain number of a the population, it will sway their behavior to compliance and to others it just radicalizes them. For every Feminist there's an Anti-Feminist, etc.


Here, 1 in 5 women have been raped and that's only according to the cases reported. Another trend is the growing belief in U.S. 'Rape Culture', in that it's a byproduct of being so Liberal and 'Free', that it doesn't stop people en masse from treating rape as a joke vs. a serious crime; thus it enables a certain attitude about it and thereby increases the danger of rape.

This is why I stated previously that for both of us, you can't really know until you're up in it.

To say Western life is superior is a subjective worldview. People in the East believe we're in decline because of it.

As for the U.S. slowly falling, that may be true to a degree but I don't place blame with Liberalism. I'd say it's more attuned to Corruption.


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#104577 - 12/23/15 11:05 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Ubermensch23 Offline
member


Registered: 03/11/14
Posts: 131
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
My uncle emigrated to the US a long time ago, he lives on the West Coast, and I can tell you that it is much better than here, so I'm not basing my opinion on assumption, I've been there quite a few times already.

Blacks were not kept back by whites, being an American you would think thus, but it's a lie. When Jan Van Riebeeck arrived in South Africa in 1652, the blacks had already killed the natives the khoi-san, and were still living like savages, ritually molesting their relatives. While the rest of the world was deep into the gunpowder age, they were literally still running around in loincloths with spears. So to say that Europeans held blacks back is a lie, other races such as the Arabs never educated them (we should have never either, savages will remains savages), they never freed them from slavery until we forced them to unfortunately. The Arabs committed genocide up in Northern Africa, which then led the Bantu (invader/outsider) tribes into the South of Africa, where they killed the natives.

So what I'm trying to say, is that if not for the ignorance of Europeans, they would be either completely wiped out by the Arabs, or still running around in loincloths. Everything they have today, is thanks to the mercy of our forefathers, every single thing, so to imply that we held them back, when in fact we had empowered them, is ludicrous. Even in my country the very, very few black intellectuals realize this, the Zulu king even recently said that he preferred Apartheid to Democracy. You can google it. I'm not attacking you, just correcting you, because as I've stated, there would be no black race, without the white race. They had nothing without us.
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#104579 - 12/23/15 11:35 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Ubermensch23
Blacks were not kept back by whites, being an American you would think thus, but it's a lie. When Jan Van Riebeeck arrived in South Africa in 1652, the blacks had already killed the natives the khoi-san, and were still living like savages, ritually molesting their relatives. While the rest of the world was deep into the gunpowder age, they were literally still running around in loincloths with spears.


As opposed to keeping blacks like property? They were held back in terms of education and etiquette. They were not allowed to learn to read, write, or know the true origins of things. They were often fed false information to keep them docile and stupid.

Even after the slaves were promised emancipation as free men, it took almost a whole entire year to formalize it and be freed by their owners.

During the Civil War here, blacks were made plenty of promises to fight for the Union. To include State's Rights to eventually give them freedom. These were lies. Some fought for the Confederacy because they really believed emancipation from a hierarchy meant that individual states would set them free. They believed the lies because they were ignorant. For every 'soldier' they were even crossed off the list, which is why Americans today still don't believe there were Black Confederates.

Plenty of Whites were wiped out by other 'savage' whites; especially in the Colonial Era.

The whole b.s. story of 'Thanksgiving' is perpetuated because if the natives didn't help feed these idiots they would have died. Then what thanks do the natives get? Mass Genocide by white settlers and the remaining populations forced onto concentration camps (basically). This is why the U.S. continues to pay reparations to the First Americans. Instead of cooperating with natives, they just killed them off as 'savages'. White Europeans decide what's savage and then seek to eradicate it.


 Quote:
So to say that Europeans held blacks back is a lie, other races such as the Arabs never educated them (we should have never either, savages will remains savages), they never freed them from slavery until we forced them to unfortunately. The Arabs committed genocide up in Northern Africa, which then led the Bantu (invader/outsider) tribes into the South of Africa, where they killed the natives.


I guess that depends on what you'd consider being held back. Europeans traded for Africans because they were a commodity of labor. The Europeans offered Africans goods so it was in their best interest to offer up the best of their stock for trade goods. Europeans also annexed the continent, trapped warring peoples in borders and contributed to the continent's state today. Who knows what Africa as a whole would be today without European intrusion?

It's one of the richest in resources in the world, yet poorest because of the corruption. Where do you think these leaders learn this stuff from? On an individual basis, even the most ignorant leader has eyes to see. He wants the power, to drive a fancy car and have lots of money because the status of the West is a carrot to chase.

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So what I'm trying to say, is that if not for the ignorance of Europeans, they would be either completely wiped out by the Arabs, or still running around in loincloths. [quote]

I get that, I just don't see why it's a bad thing. I'd consider it man's natural state. Besides, when you look at innovations of ancient peoples (absent of European assistance) who knows what could have been?

[quote]Everything they have today, is thanks to the mercy of our forefathers, every single thing, so to imply that we held them back, when in fact we had empowered them, is ludicrous.


Over here, we call that being an Uncle Tom. The field Nigger gets far more respect for refusing to be 'civilized', even if he's considered 'Evil' by those that do.

 Quote:
Even in my country the very, very few black intellectuals realize this, the Zulu king even recently said that he preferred Apartheid to Democracy. You can google it. I'm not attacking you, just correcting you, because as I've stated, there would be no black race, without the white race. They had nothing without us.


I wouldn't consider it an 'attack' to have a conversational disagreement. Is that a Liberal view I detect???

The fact that even the Zulu King is on board, doesn't distract from the point. No European taught the Zulu warriors to fashion poison and war tactics, every thing in time evolves. So too would their way of life evolved naturally without intrusion.

I do agree though, Democracy is the pits. Why do you think that is?
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#104580 - 12/23/15 01:18 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Ubermensch23 Offline
member


Registered: 03/11/14
Posts: 131
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
The Zulus sucked at war, you read your stupid books written by liberal imbeciles that know nothing of their history, zulus were cowards. The first time they fought an opponent that could fight back, even though out-numbered more than 60 to 1, they ran. There is no arguing with a liberal, because according to you Africa would have been better than it is today without European intrusion. Was it better before ancient Arabic intrusion?

There are former colonies who thrive today, namely China and India, both in the top 5 in the world. Both of these countries praise British colonialism for the education, science and physics that they had taught them, along with the infrastructure left behind. Isn't it ironic that the only ones complaining about being colonized are those who didn't have civilization prior to colonization? Isn't it funny that the cry baby monkeys living off the world's welfare are unsuccessful, whilst the others acknowledging the vital importance of colonialism are those that are progressing?

Slavery never has been a bad thing, liberalism has made it appear thus. There is a natural order, they are sub-human and the least evolved of all the races. Africans generally brag about how the first homo sapien was black, unfortunately they lack the intellectual capacity to realize that this means they are the closest relatives to homo erectus. They are less evolved, to have them among us is unnatural, and that is inline with the goals of christianity. I think that you are a very limited woman, who has never seen an actual black 'person' before. And let me just remind you, most of those referred to as black in your country are biracial, not black.

War and savagery are not synonymous, war is very natural, and required frequently. Your misguided perception in regards to this topic clearly illustrates to me that you are either a feminist or a liberal. Well without the west, would women be treated equally? Don't think so. The reason democracy always fails, is because there are far more idiots than geniuses, and thus the idiots get to pick the leader. This is why dictatorship, monarchy, nationalism and even communism are far superior to democracy. I must say your last reply disgusted me, it's women like you who should be living here in Africa, among the savages, so we can see how long your hippy ideals last when you live among a black majority, that rape you, infect you with aids, and rape your children in order to cure aids according to their beliefs. Fokken dom hoer.
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#104582 - 12/23/15 01:45 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Ubermensch23
The Zulus sucked at war, you read your stupid books written by liberal imbeciles that know nothing of their history, zulus were cowards.


I didn't say they could outmatch the British in the Anglo-Zulu war, only that they (in spite of being regarded as savages) developed the use of poisons and strategy to fight and engage in war. They weren't cowards provided there was a equal playing field. Running away from bullets is just smart, it be stupid to stand there and throw spears.

 Quote:
There is no arguing with a liberal, because according to you Africa would have been better than it is today without European intrusion.
No, according to me I said "Who Knows?", i.e. it's unknown because the Europeans intruded upon the continent.

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Was it better before ancient Arabic intrusion?
By 16th century, there was already an intrusion. Depending on who writes the history, what evidence is there to support a larger Arab invasion prior to that time? The so-called victors write about their conquests over 200 years later and they are taken as gospel because the force of Islam (based on cultural markers) is strong, so why even challenge it right? Why bother, it's what you've been taught.

 Quote:
There are former colonies who thrive today, namely China and India, both in the top 5 in the world. Both of these countries praise British colonialism for the education, science and physics that they had taught them, along with the infrastructure left behind.
Likewise the Orient was praised for their advances in medicine and mathematics, so it's not like Asia was inept prior to European contact.


 Quote:
Isn't it ironic that the only ones complaining about being colonized are those who didn't have civilization prior to colonization? Isn't it funny that the cry baby monkeys living off the world's welfare are unsuccessful, whilst the others acknowledging the vital importance of colonialism are those that are progressing?


No it isn't because those given colonial civilization cry even louder. "Progress" is subjective, and often in contrast to specific infrastructures (such as Capitalism, Technological Advancement) but 50 years of Ecology show that all that advancement is impacting the very thing that sustains life. Humans have fast-tracked natural occurrences in the race of progression.


 Quote:
Slavery never has been a bad thing, liberalism has made it appear thus.
I don't recall making a judgment call on it, only the effects on the "Savage" as you've defined it. To say Whites didn't hold back Blacks for decades is an incorrect assessment.


 Quote:
There is a natural order, they are sub-human and the least evolved of all the races. Africans generally brag about how the first homo sapien was black, unfortunately they lack the intellectual capacity to realize that this means they are the closest relatives to homo erectus.
The argument is typically lacking the Neanderthal gene, the Genome project isn't completed but we've learned a lot from the HapMap, to include where a lot of these genetic mutations come from. It so often points to White Europeans.


 Quote:
They are less evolved, to have them among us is unnatural, and that is inline with the goals of christianity.
I disagree and do not discount the environmental factors in potential, I'm simply pointing out that contrast is required to make an intelligent call on that. "Less Evolved" in contrast to very specific models you have accepted as "Progress".


 Quote:
I think that you are a very limited woman, who has never seen an actual black 'person' before. And let me just remind you, most of those referred to as black in your country are biracial, not black.
News Flash, we get immigrants from Africa too. So please. If you believe I'm limited, it's because I simply disagree with your myopic views.

Look, there's groups of people here in the U.S. I show bias towards but I don't make excuses when I do.

 Quote:
War and savagery are not synonymous, war is very natural, and required frequently. Your misguided perception in regards to this topic clearly illustrates to me that you are either a feminist or a liberal.
Quote me as having stated they were. I am neither Feminist nor Liberal but if it helps you cross imaginary lines in the sand, call me what you must. White Europeans make similar arguments against other National Identities considered of their own. My family from Italy treats Sicilians as sub-human inferiors because of the past mixing with Africans. It doesn't however address how two groups of peoples, show the same potential regardless if that's the case.


 Quote:
Well without the west, would women be treated equally? Don't think so.
Right, and women being treated 'equal' is the reason no woman in this country complains about inequity in career fields and compensation. Nah, not at all. I assure you, regardless of what's on paper - we aren't treated as equals nor should we be.

 Quote:
The reason democracy always fails, is because there are far more idiots than geniuses, and thus the idiots get to pick the leader. This is why dictatorship, monarchy, nationalism and even communism are far superior to democracy.
The U.S. is a Democratic Republic with emphasis on the Republic and in spite of having 3 branches of government as a fail safe, the emperor still has veto power.

 Quote:
I must say your last reply disgusted me, it's women like you who should be living here in Africa, among the savages, so we can see how long your hippy ideals last when you live among a black majority, that rape you, infect you with aids, and rape your children in order to cure aids according to their beliefs. Fokken dom hoer.


Yet, I'm from the U.S. and have been raped (3) times, and attempts have been made on my life more than once. Still don't hear me crying about it do you?


Hippy ideals? Please.

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#104585 - 12/23/15 04:12 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Ubermensch23 Offline
member


Registered: 03/11/14
Posts: 131
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
I hope you get killed the next time you get sodomized. Because frankly your kind is a plague. I did state the Orient and India, and many other races had their own civilizations prior to colonialism, this is not true for native Africans, because unfortunately for your liberal crack-whore ideals, the reality is that they are less evolved, maybe you should educate yourself on the subject instead of digging for bullshit from your worn-out vagina. The Zulus also lost to the boere, massively, not just the Anglo-Zulu war, so stop talking shit when you don't even know proper history.

You clearly don't comprehend my comments in regards to intrusion, the ancient Egyptians were proven to have migrated from the Middle-East into Northern Africa. Thus they had intruded, thus they had already colonized. And you know why? Because the superior being will always triumph, blacks lacked the intelligence and wit to overpower and repel them, thus is nature. So stop putting words into my mouth and invest in a proper education so that you might properly learn to read someday.

Progress is far from subjective, you're probably going to claim that running around in loincloths and raping their female relatives is culturally progressive. Now fuck off and stop trying to be clever when you live in denial and probably endorse alternative history. Denying that blacks are the least evolved is so dimwitted, when it has been proven so many times, over, and over again. The European/Caucasian race is the youngest race on the planet, with the first recorded Europeans migrating into Europe by means of the Middle-East and Asia. So you can site your liberal brain-washed bullshit as much as you want, but educated people know this for a fact.

Your claim that Africans and Europeans show the same potential is ludicrous. Even with Affirmative Action, and political correctness, the majority of blacks in your country still cannot succeed. I'm not saying there aren't White, Asian, indigenous South Americans or Arabs that aren't failures, but it is far less likely than in the case of blacks due to higher intellectual potential and IQ. In your fairy-world that might sound nice, but in the real world it's simply not factual, no other race survives simply off the pity of others, only Africans. They need a head-start and still can't succeed. They are more prone to crime because they are less evolved, there is less crime in impoverished White and Asian communities. You might not like to believe it, but it is the truth regardless.

The problem is one of your prior posts linking a youtube video regarding the satanic temple ceremony is a perfect example of why Satanism is for idiots. Real intellectuals don't go about in public and try to stand out, they join fraternities and secret societies to advance themselves, this is the real occult. Then you get the kids who are fat, uneducated, losers and people with psychological issues, not unlike yourself, that cling to Satanism in order to feel some sense of power. I see more fat and uneducated laveyans than i do christians, I also see that you're trying to emulate christianity in becoming a mainstream religion, because after all your talk, all you ever wanted was society's approval huh?

I do agree with you in regards that though women are treated equally, they are not equal. Men are larger, stronger, smarter and more competitive. Not to mention, every organization that is supposed to be primarily based on intellectualism and self-worship (such as your Satanism) that lets women have opinions eventually turns to trash. Just look at you fucking people, you so-called highly-intelligent people who worship yourselves, the huge majority of you are socially-awkward, uneducated, obese or out of shape, and none of you hold positions of power bar Aquino. The christians you hate so much possess a larger percentage of intelligent people than are present in your ranks, doesn't that tell you something? That if you were better than these sheeple, why are you dumber than they are? There is no difference between your kind and winy bitch feminists, always begging for equality, always wanting approval and acceptance. You disgust me. If you were smart you would infiltrate the establishment, not make yourself known to it, because that is how they recruit their followers, and that is how the western 'satanic' community became so idiotic.

You are not more intelligent than christians okay, you are just a wannabe, you're a puppet in somebody's play, you're not the author. I bet you have a really low IQ.


Edited by Ubermensch23 (12/23/15 04:19 PM)
_________________________
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#104594 - 12/24/15 01:49 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1146
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Untermensch23
Just look at you fucking people, you so-called highly-intelligent people who worship yourselves, the huge majority of you are socially-awkward, uneducated, obese or out of shape, and none of you hold positions of power bar Aquino.

Why am I supposed to take someone seriously who is so clearly pulling claims out of his ass? How the heck would you even know about my social life, education, fitness level, etc.?

 Originally Posted By: Untermensch23
There is no difference between your kind and winy bitch feminists, always begging for equality, always wanting approval and acceptance.

Since when? Largely when someone comes in here campaigning for some movement to seek acceptance, he gets laughed out of the forum.

 Originally Posted By: Untermensch23
If you were smart you would infiltrate the establishment...

I agree. We also wouldn't blow our cover by announcing where we work on a Satanic forum. Durrrr-hurrrrr-hurrrrr.

No, wait, I changed my mind. It's totally worth risking everything I've worked for to impress some derpass on the internet who doesn't matter in the slightest and who I'll never meet. /s
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#104600 - 12/24/15 11:23 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Ubermensch23
I hope you get killed the next time you get sodomized. Because frankly your kind is a plague.


Everyone has a dream.

 Quote:

I did state the Orient and India, and many other races had their own civilizations prior to colonialism, this is not true for native Africans, because unfortunately for your liberal crack-whore ideals, the reality is that they are less evolved, maybe you should educate yourself on the subject instead of digging for bullshit from your worn-out vagina.


Speaking of comprehension, nor did I say otherwise. I pointed to the idea that these civilizations weren't inept prior to contact with Europeans. Cross-culturalism is inevitable with discovery and trade.

 Quote:
The Zulus also lost to the boere, massively, not just the Anglo-Zulu war, so stop talking shit when you don't even know proper history.


Speaking of proper history . The Brits don't exactly gloss over the formidable force that was Zulu, in spite of your opinion that they are inferior and less evolved.

 Quote:
You clearly don't comprehend my comments in regards to intrusion, the ancient Egyptians were proven to have migrated from the Middle-East into Northern Africa. Thus they had intruded, thus they had already colonized. And you know why? Because the superior being will always triumph, blacks lacked the intelligence and wit to overpower and repel them, thus is nature. So stop putting words into my mouth and invest in a proper education so that you might properly learn to read someday.
I don't recall putting statements in your mouth, I'm simply replying to your commentary. I don't negate the cross-pollination of culture but to say that blacks lack potential is a myopic view. Afrikaans don't always do so hot. Think it's genetic?


 Quote:
Progress is far from subjective, you're probably going to claim that running around in loincloths and raping their female relatives is culturally progressive.
Progress in relation to what you deem superior is subjective. Contemporary Zulu own electronics, live in houses and omg, drive cars. Remote peoples that see no need to modernize and maintain their own culture doesn't equate to genetic inferiority.

 Quote:
Now fuck off and stop trying to be clever when you live in denial and probably endorse alternative history. Denying that blacks are the least evolved is so dimwitted, when it has been proven so many times, over, and over again. The European/Caucasian race is the youngest race on the planet, with the first recorded Europeans migrating into Europe by means of the Middle-East and Asia. So you can site your liberal brain-washed bullshit as much as you want, but educated people know this for a fact.


Nah, I think I'll stick around for the sheer entertainment of your disdain. I'll have to inform my Black gynecologist of her lack of potential while she's looking in my vagina for your facts.

 Quote:
Your claim that Africans and Europeans show the same potential is ludicrous. Even with Affirmative Action, and political correctness, the majority of blacks in your country still cannot succeed.


And yet, we have a half-black President, go figure. Must be all that white creamy goodness that got him there.

 Quote:
I'm not saying there aren't White, Asian, indigenous South Americans or Arabs that aren't failures, but it is far less likely than in the case of blacks due to higher intellectual potential and IQ.
Right, there's no such thing as a Black inventor, scientist, doctor, chemist, lawyer, judge, etc. etc. They must be figures of my imagination because according to you they lack the intellectual capacity for such fields.

You're confusing socio-economic environmental factors with intellectual capacity. Nice education you got there.

 Quote:
In your fairy-world that might sound nice, but in the real world it's simply not factual, no other race survives simply off the pity of others, only Africans.
Solely on pity? It couldn't be that they refused to give up on gaining their emancipation and allowing their potential to manifest their desires; nah. Couldn't be that.

 Quote:
They need a head-start and still can't succeed. They are more prone to crime because they are less evolved, there is less crime in impoverished White and Asian communities. You might not like to believe it, but it is the truth regardless.
Right, the U.S. is overrun with Black Serial Killers, sure. Ignore the other factors, such as racial disparity; it simply doesn't fit your beliefs.

 Quote:
The problem is one of your prior posts linking a youtube video regarding the satanic temple ceremony is a perfect example of why satanism is for idiots.
I doubt that's the problem here.

 Quote:
Real intellectuals don't go about in public and try to stand out, they join fraternities and secret societies to advance themselves, this is the real occult.
Yeah, they certainly don't announce their field of business or where they work on forums for that matter.

 Quote:
Then you get the kids who are fat, uneducated, losers and people with psychological issues, not unlike yourself, that cling to satanism in order to feel some sense of power.
And here I thought it was the White Europeans that had superior potential for simply being white.

 Quote:

I see more fat and uneducated laveyans than i do christians, I also see that you're trying to emulate christianity in becoming a mainstream religion, because after all your talk, all you ever wanted was society's approval huh?
Yep, you got it dude. That's all I want for Christmas.

 Quote:
I do agree with you in regards that though women are treated equally, they are not equal. Men are larger, stronger, smarter and more competitive. Not to mention, every organization that is supposed to be primarily based on intellectualism and self-worship (such as your satanism) that lets women have opinions eventually turns to trash.


I tell you what, since you seem to believe you have some semblance of power to shut us wee women down, come at me bro. In fact, bring your sodomy and death. I could use use a good violation of my sacred holiest of holies.

 Quote:
Just look at you fucking people, you so-called highly-intelligent people who worship yourselves, the huge majority of you are socially-awkward, uneducated, obese or out of shape, and none of you hold positions of power bar Aquino. The christians you hate so much possess a larger percentage of intelligent people than are present in your ranks, doesn't that tell you something?
I have yet to meet a Christian that hates me, I favor dating Catholics. But hey, whatever gets you through the day.

 Quote:
That if you were better than these sheeple, why are you dumber than they are? There is no difference between your kind and winy bitch feminists, always begging for equality, always wanting approval and acceptance. You disgust me. If you were smart you would infiltrate the establishment, not make yourself known to it, because that is how they recruit their followers, and that is how the western 'satanic' community became so idiotic.


Ummm what Establishment is in my way exactly? Rage against the machine, is that it? Oh My! Damn that infrastructure, damn it to hell. I'd rather shit in an outhouse!

 Quote:
You are not more intelligent than christians okay, you are just a wannabe, you're a puppet in somebody's play, you're not the author. I bet you have a really low IQ.


Ok? You seem salty bro.
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#104629 - 12/25/15 02:48 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Ubermensch23 Offline
member


Registered: 03/11/14
Posts: 131
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
I think sacred can only be used to describe the female vagina or anus when it hasn't already been stretched out by all manner of barn animals. I'm not British, I'm an Afrikaner, thus I was referring to the Battle of Blood River, during which they were completely humiliated. It's not a surprise that the British struggled, because after all the rest of the world were still marching in lines to get shot, whilst my ancestors were already revolutionizing warfare, which is why a rag-tag group of French, German and Dutch settlers were able to fend off the British until they had to come back for a second time, this time with all the soldiers from their colonies to, I'd consider that a compliment.

"Afrikaans don't always do so well" - This attempt to appear intelligent simply proved your contextual incompetence. Afrikaans is a language, Afrikaners are the people. Contemporary Zulus have been colonized, educated, and influenced by western society, thus once again I am correct and you haven't proven me wrong. In regards to your rant pertaining to your black gynecologist, you clearly are ignorant enough to assume education and intelligence to be synonymous, simply proving your own lack of appropriate ability to engage in conversation with adults. As an example, chimpanzees were trained/educated in order to go into space before humans were, does that make the chimp more intelligent that you? While I would like to believe thus, I highly doubt it, this example is perfect in conveying the fact that education and intelligence are far from synonymous. And lastly on the same subject, good luck to your genetically inferior gynecologist, it might take some time to examine a filthy vagina so worn out it could be worn over your head.

You do have a half black president, how's that working out for you? You're trillions in debt, record weakness of the dollar, collapse of the petrodollar, more people living off welfare than ever before, you have to work longer for less pay. I'd say my point is proven, but let's not forget the fact that political correctness got him to where he is, along with the general stupidity of Americans, these things mentioned will be equally important to the election of Hillary Clinton the pathological liar, I expect that to be followed up by the first president with down syndrome and then morbid obesity.

The idea that serial killers are even remotely responsible for even a small portion of American crime, is something that clearly illustrates that your lifestyle consists of living in denial and watching too much television. The huge majority of crimes in your country are committed by blacks. It’s important to note that black men commit nearly half of all murders in your country, which is astounding when you take into consideration the fact that they only make up 12-13 percent of the population. So since you try to be clever why don't you try to apply the maths and tell us how it turns out? In regards to other violent crimes their overrepresentation is also well documented, in fact only in terms of drug-related crime are they second to Hispanics, who represent a far larger portion of the populace. The reason incompetent individuals such as yourself seem to link serial killers to Caucasians, is due to the fact that 1) Caucasians represent the majority of the population thus in this regard the crime is more reflective of America's racial composition, and 2) because the most successful and intriguing serial killers tended to be Caucasian, since Caucasians have the highest EQ, thus they are more popular in the media. In fact black serial killers represent approximately 20 percent of serial killers, when they are only 12-13 percent of the population, thus once again proving my point.

I never said there aren't educated black people, I already educated you in regards to the fact that there is a very small correlation between intelligence and education I believe, and in regards to the fact that the education they receive is largely based on western literature, since whether you like it or not we dominate in that aspect too, followed by oriental, middle-eastern, and maybe somewhere beneath 1% of the written sources is something written by a black man, thus once again proving my point. I also never said that there weren't black inventors, but they are less relevant, and there are simply far less inventors that are not Caucasian outside of the Asian community, approximately 80% of all known inventions were invented by Caucasians, something you seem to want to undermine in your attempt to make blacks appear our equals. In fact the only relevant inventions by blacks were peanut butter and penis enlargement as practiced by African tribes during coming of age rituals. I mean peanut butter must be right up there with electricity right? The only manner in which blacks are physically superior to whites in particular is that they run faster, due to more fast twitch muscle fiber, which is also lean muscle, as opposed to white men who have the most slow twitch muscle, which is why whites dominate strength-based sports, and just about any sport except for basketball, sprinting, and American football.

I'm not confusing socioeconomic factors with potential, which is why I, a person from a 4th world country am finishing my Honours degree, whereas you a person from a 1st world country apparently flunked your GED.

The fact that you assume that the personal information I exposed is in any sense accurate makes it appear as though you regard me as either a saint, a paragon, or an idol. So in regards to this subject, I am either a very good liar, a very confident person, or you are very gullible fool. So a compliment to me, or an insult to your character, or lack thereof, take your pick.



Edited by Ubermensch23 (12/25/15 02:59 PM)
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#104631 - 12/25/15 04:49 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1751
Loc: New York
 Quote:
In fact the only relevant inventions by blacks were peanut butter and penis enlargement as practiced by African tribes during coming of age rituals.


Nah, they didn't event peanut butter. It's been around pretty much since peanuts and rocks.

From Wiki: "Peanut butter dates back to the Aztecs and the Incas"

But that's just that we know of. I'm pretty sure others were making it much much longer.


Edited by Asmedious (12/25/15 04:51 PM)
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#104632 - 12/25/15 05:01 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1751
Loc: New York
I enjoy your posts and find them quite interesting BUT....

if you write shit like this
 Quote:
I hope you get killed the next time you get sodomized. Because frankly your kind is a plague.
towards anyone on here ever again, I will ban you instantly and for good.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#104633 - 12/25/15 08:42 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Ubermensch23
I think sacred can only be used to describe the female vagina or anus when ...
Hence my sarcasm, transmutation is achieved by a means; experience accelerates the process. League? We aren't even in the same game.

 Quote:
I'm not British, I'm an Afrikaner, ...
Which doesn't have fuckall to do with your claims. It only accounts for your tunnel vision.

 Quote:
thus I was referring to the Battle of Blood River, during which they were completely humiliated.
The British example was to provide a contextual basis for potential and influence. It wasn't just pure visceral animal base, there is an obvious drive to dominate.

 Quote:
It's not a surprise that the British struggled, because after all the rest of the world were still marching in lines to get shot, whilst my ancestors were already revolutionizing warfare...


Nor did the Zulu march in lines and the British still got their asses handed to them by loin-cloth wearing spear-chuckers.



 Quote:
, which is why a rag-tag group of French, German and Dutch settlers were able to fend off the British until they had to come back for a second time, this time with all the soldiers from their colonies to, I'd consider that a compliment.



Is it really a compliment if you acknowledge your opponent is of a weaker force? That even the Zulu can cause them humiliation?

 Quote:
"Afrikaans don't always do so well" - This attempt to appear intelligent simply proved your contextual incompetence. Afrikaans is a language, Afrikaners are the people.
Well aware thanks, link to the article stands as an example that even they can be reduced to squatters with zip to show for their potential.

 Quote:
Contemporary Zulus have been colonized, educated, and influenced by western society, thus once again I am correct and you haven't proven me wrong.
If your measuring standard is to the West and what it considers advancement and progress? Then you acknowledge, a preferred slant towards diversity. In fact, you've pissed and moaned and shown adversity towards it.

 Quote:
In regards to your rant pertaining to your black gynecologist, you clearly are ignorant enough to assume education and intelligence to be synonymous, simply proving your own lack of appropriate ability to engage in conversation with adults. As an example, chimpanzees were trained/educated in order to go into space before humans were, does that make the chimp more intelligent that you? While I would like to believe thus, I highly doubt it, this example is perfect in conveying the fact that education and intelligence are far from synonymous.


No, actually I don't. You projecting that upon me doesn't exactly wipe statements you've already made off the board. You've made it abundantly clear that hold a disdain for lawlessness. That by evolved, European ingredients were required in order to meet your preferred standards for how other people should be.

 Quote:
And lastly on the same subject, good luck to your genetically inferior gynecologist, it might take some time to examine a filthy vagina so worn out it could be worn over your head.


and have a weird thing about vaginas.

 Quote:
You do have a half black president, how's that working out for you? You're trillions in debt, record weakness of the dollar, collapse of the petrodollar, more people living off welfare than ever before, you have to work longer for less pay. I'd say my point is proven,


Politicizing isn't the same thing as what you're going on about.


 Quote:
but let's not forget the fact that political correctness got him to where he is, along with the general stupidity of Americans,
Go European influence and Western Culture!


 Quote:
these things mentioned will be equally important to the election of Hillary Clinton the pathological liar, I expect that to be followed up by the first president with down syndrome and then morbid obesity.


Over-indulgence is not just a marker of the New World, it was dragged over here from the old.

 Quote:
The idea that serial killers are even remotely responsible for even a small portion of American crime, is something that clearly illustrates that your lifestyle consists of living in denial and watching too much television.
Nice try but it doesn't distract from the point. The number of crimes is irrelevant.

 Quote:
The huge majority of crimes in your country are committed by blacks. It’s important to note that black men commit nearly half of all murders in your country, which is astounding when you take into consideration the fact that they only make up 12-13 percent of the population.
Talk about denial. This country has a long history of racial bias, slavery, and Laws and eventually the levees break and give rise to culture shift. Culture changes slowly and gradually which accounts for the racial disparity in prosecuting and sentencing crimes today and shown in statistics.



 Quote:
So since you try to be clever why don't you try to apply the maths and tell us how it turns out? In regards to other violent crimes their overrepresentation is also well documented, in fact only in terms of drug-related crime are they second to Hispanics, who represent a far larger portion of the populace. The reason incompetent individuals such as yourself seem to link serial killers to Caucasians, is due to the fact that 1) Caucasians represent the majority of the population thus in this regard the crime is more reflective of America's racial composition, and 2) because the most successful and intriguing serial killers tended to be Caucasian, since Caucasians have the highest EQ, thus they are more popular in the media. In fact black serial killers represent approximately 20 percent of serial killers, when they are only 12-13 percent of the population, thus once again proving my point.


Well documented is racial disparity and other socio-economic reasons minorities both commit and are persecuted for crimes. You must also account for corruption in our legal system.

 Quote:
I never said there aren't educated black people, I already educated you in regards to the fact that there is a very small correlation between intelligence and education
Again, nor did I put that statement in your mouth.

 Quote:
I believe, and in regards to the fact that the education they receive is largely based on western literature, since whether you like it or not we dominate in that aspect too, followed by oriental, middle-eastern, and maybe somewhere beneath 1% of the written sources is something written by a black man, thus once again proving my point.



Potential also includes drive to become educated and whole cultures rise and fall, ebb with the flow of time. Ancient civilizations remain a fascination for what they left behind. Some of which is so advanced it can't even be replicated today. To say that all culture must be unified and by rejecting diversity (adding to that a standard of superiority), it's like chasing a dream of harmony and a whole world of Overmen. And for what? To go chasing rainbows and picking daisies?

 Quote:
I also never said that there weren't black inventors, but they are less relevant, and there are simply far less inventors that are not Caucasian outside of the Asian community, approximately 80% of all known inventions were invented by Caucasians, something you seem to want to undermine in your attempt to make blacks appear our equals.


Inequity exists in every group of people, no matter their heritage. I'm actually speaking to the opposite but you've projected upon me as being a Liberal Feminist, maybe when you bore of looking in your own ass there can be an intelligent exchange. Until then, I'll just keep finger banging and kill time.

 Quote:
In fact the only relevant inventions by blacks were peanut butter and penis enlargement
What about these? .

 Quote:
I'm not confusing socioeconomic factors with potential, which is why I, a person from a 4th world country am finishing my Honours degree, whereas you a person from a 1st world country apparently flunked your GED.
Pride is wonderful.

 Quote:
The fact that you assume that the personal information I exposed is in any sense accurate makes it appear as though you regard me as either a saint, a paragon, or an idol. So in regards to this subject, I am either a very good liar, a very confident person, or you are very gullible fool. So a compliment to me, or an insult to your character, or lack thereof, take your pick.
As per my previous post, that if you had two brain cells to rub together you post the competitor relaying my disbelief. But hey, who's keeping track?

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#104639 - 12/26/15 02:25 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Asmedious]
Ubermensch23 Offline
member


Registered: 03/11/14
Posts: 131
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
I didn't know about peanut butter being invented by the Aztecs, my apologies, however I was referring to the first commercial product, which was produced by a black. Thanks for informing me of this. I will heed your warning, however she is partially to blame due to her emotional outburst which resulted in her divulging this information in an attempt to halt the argument. I will refrain from vulgarity as much as I can. Educating her is far more entertaining than insulting her anyhow, enjoy your day.
_________________________
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#104640 - 12/26/15 03:30 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Ubermensch23 Offline
member


Registered: 03/11/14
Posts: 131
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
In regards to the claims regarding the Zulu, actually the Zulu kingdom was completely destroyed by the British. In fact during the period in which the first Anglo-Boer war transpired, all of the black tribes, except for the Sotho were already conquered. Thus why the Africans tribes regard Afrikaners and Sotho as having been the last standing tribes against colonialism. The Zulu never humiliated anybody, they lost massive battles against the Boere and the British. The British ultimately won due to the fact that they were the superior force, far from inferior, whether that be due to their sheer number when compared to the Boer Kommando, or the fact that they were willing to create the world's first concentration camps in order to win a war using psychological warfare, when they were failing to win the physical struggle against my ancestors. They were the victors, the end justifies the means.

You did indirectly insinuate that education and intelligence were synonymous, you're simply retracting multiple statements in the attempt to save some face. Have you noticed that your little cheerleaders have stopped cheering? Because you are being metaphorically demolished in the intellectual sense. Most of your replies aren't proving me wrong at all, they're proving me correct, proving my point, proving your lack of ability to sufficiently contribute to this debate.

Your half black president has everything to do with the worsened state of your country. What's your next excuse going to be? It's not Putin's fault they annexed Crimea? Because leaders are not at all responsible for the well-being of their countries right? Idiot. Your status as a regular in this debate has previously helped you to scathe by based upon the extent of your commitment. Unfortunately for you it's worn off, your illiteracy and liberal values are now well documented upon this forum, as are is your emotionally unstable state and idiocy my dear. If you would like me to provide an example of your illiteracy, let me know, however be warned it would be comprised mostly of about half of all of your replies.

The number of crimes aren't irrelevant, in fact that was the whole point in regards to the subject. You're trying to blame Caucasians, but succeeding in proving only your pathetic lifestyle and ignorance in regards to the affairs and state of your own country. You're attempting to insinuate that the reason for blacks committing the majority of crime in America, though representing only 12-13 percent of the population, is due to historic oppression. Europeans were historically oppressed by both the Persian and Ottoman empires, don't see the same results though? The Chinese and Hispanic peoples were also greatly oppressed by the old Americans, and yet their crime rates are lower? So it seems as though you're formulating your replies based on emotion as opposed to logic. Blaming prosecutors for prosecuting criminals is like blaming employees for doing their jobs. Your lack of logic has been clearly exhibited for anybody to witness, mission complete. When a foreigner has to educate you about your own country, that's when you know you are an imbecile.

I never said the progress is based on rejecting diversity, in fact I suggested the opposite. I quoted a fact that the majority of today's education, scientific progress and so on was contributed by the Caucasian people, and that whilst there are significant contributions from Asiatic, Arabic, and Hispanic peoples, the same cannot be said of blacks, which is a fact. Thus I clearly succeeded in proving the well-known correlation between the lack of intellectual contribution from blacks, and their intellectual inferiority, exhibiting another fact, that they are the least evolved, and thus most primitive.

Your link to African inventors once again only succeeded in proving my point. In the history of man, this is what has been contributed by blacks, so little, why don't you link us a page of the inventions of Europeans? Because you have failed to disprove the fact that Europeans invented about 80 percent of all inventions. Whilst black contributions have contributed to less than 1 percent, point proven. And on the same subject, why did you quote Arabic and European African inventors? When clearly I was referring to the natives of Africa - blacks. About half of those listed there are in fact non-blacks, thus once again proving my point, since Caucasians and Arabic people make up only a small portion of the combined population of Africa, especially whites, my point is once again proven. The idea that Egyptians, Algerians and many other Northern African countries that are comprised of an Arabic majority are natives of Africa only serves to validate my claim in regards to your lack of education, they colonized Africa in ancient times, as whites did in more recent times. Your attempt to lump in Arabs and Caucasians with blacks only serves to prove my point, in that you are attempting to lump other races in with native Africans, whom were quite clearly whom I was referring to, in the attempt to make them seem more significant, whilst trying to disregard the fact that they are quite clearly insignificant.

I'd like you to do something, link us a list of Europeans inventors, scientists, and pioneers, something which would probably be really hard to find due to the sheer scope of the contribution. This link, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors, will also prove my claims to be factual, overrepresentation by Caucasians. And this is only in the category of 'inventors', it would be even more one-sided in regards to categories such as science, physics, philosophy, commerce and so on, if you don't believe me you can research it for yourself.

If you had disbelief in regards to the divulged personal information, you had clearly contradicted it in your previous reply, contradiction seems to come naturally to you. I have substantiated all my claims, they are thus factual, thus with my goal achieved, this debate has been won. You could, and probably will, attempt to continue, but any relatively intelligent being would share my opinion on the matter. Since there is no point in continuing, I bid you adieu, I hope that you somehow evolve to become a more intelligent being, and that you finally further yourself in regards to education, because frankly this debate was an effortless victory. A precise and accurate man educating a bumbling and self-contradictory fool. You are free to continue proving yourself idiotic, as is the liberty afforded to you.


Edited by Ubermensch23 (12/26/15 03:39 AM)
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#104643 - 12/26/15 09:54 AM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
We're engaged in debate? What cheerleaders are you referring to? The topic you entered on Dec 9th was in an effort to engage in this activity which is just banter at this point. I certainly wouldn't consider it a debate.

I still find it curious that you take both sides on Liberalism/Capitalism. In spite of having very little to no contact with Europeans prior, the Zulu still humiliated the British in battle. Having been defeated is just the outcome after many attempts. You say they sucked at war but the fact that they didn't just run and hide in the bushes, actively engaged in it and won battles in the war; it points to their potential and only the 'least' evolved, contrasted with Liberalism and Capitalism.

I didn't insinuate it, it's that you seem to hold a disdain for Liberalism but then credit it when these least evolved people succeed in a capitalist society.

The number of crimes is in fact irrelevant when you take other factors into account such as racial disparity in sentencing, and corruption in the justice system.

Blame is not being placed with prosecutors because it isn't about justifications, it points to reasons.

You don't have to come out and say "Well, Diversity is just bad" because your hard focus demonstrates it.

You just repeat statements and declare yourself having been proven correct, when evidence points to the contrary. Especially in the area of potential and having contributed to the pool of ideas and invention. You say it's so little but much of it is relied upon in the Western world. Including but not limited to the first successful heart transplant.

You haven't done anything, you haven't changed my mind about your claims. I can review data objectively whereas you have an apparent bone to pick with the peoples you live among (104628) . So much in fact, that you have stated you intend to leave the country when you finish your education.

There's was no point to make in the first place. You were apparent from your first post. It was fun tho.



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#104671 - 12/27/15 12:45 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Ubermensch23]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1146
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Untermensch23
Have you noticed that your little cheerleaders have stopped cheering? Because you are being metaphorically demolished in the intellectual sense.

The only people I saw reply to you other than SIN were me and Asmedious. Neither was "cheerleading" SIN3 (who is a grown woman who can handle herself without backup from the peanut butter gallery), but rather responding to you independently. And why have we stopped? Not really intellectual demolition, but (in my case) having better things to do than pick through your massive, chest-thumping walls of text, which consist of little substance and lots of you declaring your own victory.

 Originally Posted By: Untermensch23
A precise and accurate man educating a bumbling and self-contradictory fool.

You are not what I would describe precise or accurate. Largely, you mischaracterize your sources ("CERN says we can summon demons!"), tell the opposition to meet your burden of proof for you ("go look it up!"), attack strawmen ("you need a pretty picture to believe!"), resort to ad hominems ("you're fat and uneducated, thus wrong!"), argue by analogy ("you're like a flat earther because you disagree with me!"), and make bold declarations with no support ("black people are stupid because it's obvious, and if you can't see that, you're stupid, too!").

Clearly, we are out of our league. /s
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#105860 - 03/15/16 12:48 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: XiaoGui17]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
General Reply:

This Article has been recirculating again giving 'Ethical' Vegans much to argue about.

 Quote:
According to Modern Farmer, the thale cress produces mustard oils that are mildly toxic when eaten and sends them throughout its leaves to try to keep the predators away. The research also revealed that when the plants felt or heard "munching vibrations" from the caterpillar, they sent out extra mustard oils. But the plants didn't react when other vibrations were present.

This one over the health benefits.

 Quote:
Going vegan doesn't automatically equate to perfect health, according to a growing body of scientific research.


A healthy balanced died (sans Animal Proteins) takes effort. A friend of mine just uses a rule of thumb called "Nothing with a face", and she's one of those Vegans that is an animal advocate.

It doesn't mean she's eating healthy, or that her life expectancy will be longer than meat eaters.

Health Benefits are iffy, but not sure it alone will kill you. Environmental factors always play a role.
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#108762 - 09/16/16 04:40 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: SIN3]
Coligula Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/26/15
Posts: 35
Loc: Shithole, Uruguay
I felt that I was the opposite from Ubermensch23, but I was wrong. I don't trust the Zulu King, but that is a good signal, I totally agree with him: These years are way worse than those of the Apatheid. Cliché: the international media hides that fact.
I would prefer the Zulu king instead of a the racially motivated marxists driving the current system, even the Zulu King knows about that bullshit.

About verganism. I tried it before, and it sucks. I can't live without tasty high proteine & high fat foods.


Edited by Coligula (09/16/16 04:52 PM)

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#108809 - 09/18/16 03:24 PM Re: Veganism; It could kill you. [Re: Coligula]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6870
Loc: Virginia
Circa 1986

It always boils down to a civil right and a black struggle. Whether Zulu King or not. There have always been kindred battles, even among their own people.

Multiculturalism. Otherwise, who would the Zulu be training to fight against if there weren't foreign invaders?

 Quote:
The issue is not whether a justice adheres to certain honestly held political convictions, but whether the jurist applies broad constitutional principles to his or her rendering of the law.
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