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#44643 - 12/06/10 12:45 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Master Magick]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Master Magick
Finally if you can find anything 'spiffy' about Nazism besides the ss uniforms, you're pretty much a lost cause...

Well, about those SS uniforms ...

When I was teaching Comparative Politics at the university, I used to startle students a bit by saying that NS Germany was really not a political system at all; it was a 12-year rock concert. Dust gathered on Albert Speer's elegant conference table in the Cabinet Room of the new Reich Chancellery because no one ever bothered to use it. The Führer made policy and issued orders, and progressively-lower functionaries made their subordinate policies and issued orders. Everyone did what he was told.

The problem with personality-driven dictatorships is that they're very brittle, because they're vulnerable to superior-whim, and of course the eventual death, retirement, or removal of the rock star leaves the whole house of cards very shaky.

Remember that NS Germany was around for only 12 years, the last 6 of which were wartime. It really had no opportunity to mature past the rock-concert stage.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#44645 - 12/06/10 02:26 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino


When I was teaching Comparative Politics at the university, I used to startle students a bit by saying that NS Germany was really not a political system at all; it was a 12-year rock concert.


That's a great way to put it. Being a student of History myself, and having been stationed in Germany for three years, I did a lot of studying into some of the photography of the WWII era, When you looked into the faces of the crowds at the rallies, you saw the same adulation and fanatical awe we reserve these days for rock stars and porn stars. This was love... devotion... almost ecstatic rapture, if you will, and I'm not talking about big-busted Rheinmaidens or slavering storm troopers... just faces of women in the crowd, and men... kids too... in awe of just seeing "der Fuhrer."

And these were rallies that brought out thousands and thousands or Germans. Not all Germans were members of the Nazi Party. It was politically or economically beneficial to be a party member, but for the mainstream German, love of country and love of its leadership transcended mere party allegiances. This was HITLER, the man who, just a few short years ago, promised bread and jobs and an end to crippling inflation. To many, these years before the carpet bombing and starvation and the Eastern Front WERE the good old days.

That idea was maintained in the theater of the Rally. The pageantry of the Third Reich and its well tailored ushers (SS and troops in their freshly pressed uniforms) kept the audience's attention and made them forget that the theater was basically a facade.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#44649 - 12/06/10 04:45 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'll reply in general.

Many here seem to jump to conclusions pretty easily. First, I think there is a distinct difference between me saying that fascism is a system to herd the cattle and the claim that Satanists herd the cattle. I don't include the Satanist in these cattle because the Satanist herds himself; he is not governed by any form of government. The fact that many do seem to feel affected by any form of government shows just how easily they identify themselves with the mass. I can see advantages or disadvantages in certain kinds of government but ultimately they do not control what I do or can do; they merely set the prize-range for my actions.

Second, I didn't say Satanists dominate, I said all life forms dominate and it is, to me, an inherent, subconscious process; the main drive of all life. This implies that all human affairs are a constant battlefield. A system that egalizes like democracy will eventually fail because it is as much aligned with human nature as was communism. Fascism is much more aligned with human nature although we would need a newer version. People tend to get a blind spot in their thinking when the word fascism is uttered. They can't get past the holocaust "theme". Those are the same people that are often offended when outsiders can't get past the "devil" theme when Satanism is mentioned.

About the looks of awe and adoration during the Hitler rallies. The same expressions can be witnessed when any leader speaks. During the past or the present. That’s how a follower looks like. There were and will be plenty of them.

D.

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#44657 - 12/06/10 08:42 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: HeimiricIX
I don't believe those who can't are to be called Satanists to begin with. So I would agree with manofsteel statement there


Fair enough if that is your definition. But if we would take that kind of definition to define every person of every faith, that is "you are only a _insert word_ if you are able to follow or practice the ideals of your choosen faith", then there would barely be any people of any religions around.

 Originally Posted By: Master Magick
I said it failed due to "many factors", not solely because of its rejection of individualism. However, that is a huge factor.


Can you give any examples at all of how fascism failed because of the lack of individualism?

 Quote:
Using "what if" they hadn't lost and look how good the economy was doesn't change that fact that it failed due to the decisions that were made. Those decisions were based on their failed ideaology. Losers don't get to say 'that it seemed like a good idea at the time'.


They did fail because they lost the war and it was because wrong decisions were being made by humans. The ideology never really got a chance to fail on its own. I am convinced that Mussolinis Italy would have thrived if not for the decision to enter the war (they had good contacts with both the US and the UK for example). It wasn’t and ideological decision that brought them down – it was a tactical error. Or you might have some new revolutionarizing information about how the foundations of Fascist Italy were what really brought them down. ;\)

 Originally Posted By: Master Magick
The point being, a Satanic Individual will always rise above, aspire to be the best at whatever they choose to be. For the most part, facsim does not allow for that.


Fascism is, in its core essence, meritocratic and hails hierarchical systems that are supposed to recognize individual effort. Democracy equals quantity over quality and, to use the words of Mr. D, the prize range they set for individuals actions are way off from what I want to see a society strive for (because they only regards immediate success and profits without a plan for the future).

 Quote:
Why the Hell would a Satanist want to herd the cattle? They graze just fine on their own.


I don’t think they do. And to me a society where people work against a common goal, the strengthening of the nation, is preferable since it will lead to better things for its inhabitants (if applied correctly that is). If you scratch my back I’ll scratch yours. It would not strive to suck out every natural resource a country has – like we do today. To me that is far better than the use and abuse of the world we live in today.
Individualism is fine for a few but to build a society where the foundation is that every man has the right to do whatever he or she wants is not something I would strive for. Too much freedoms will create chaos and a downward spiral for the whole nation in due time. The economic system of most of the western world today is quite a good indicator of that – and people probably wont learn from experience either.
Satanism never claimed to be for the many and therefore a political system that strives to build on individualistic principles of Satanism isn’t a very good idea. Only a few people can deal with the freedoms given by a liberal country (which almost all western countries are, more or less, no matter what the official ideology of the ruling party is). Satanism is about the right man in the right place. It hails hierarchy and stratification. Fascism does as well. The difference being that Satanism is an ideology for the few and never should strive to being a ruling way of thinking while Fascism was designed to lead a nation towards greatness.


And again I have to say that I whole-heartedly agree with Diavolo in what he (?) writes. The Nietzschean foundation is something that I share. The essence of the world is not survival but it is in power relations and the preservation of the species (not necessarily preservation of ones owns life).
And yes, we cant look back to what Italy did under Mussolini and copy that. However if we can manage to update the Fascist doctrines as a leading political ideology I think that would be much preferable to what we have today. That is one reason I follow the advancements of Nouvelle Droite with interest. A cultural movement which does have its ties with prominent Satanists and also Setians (check out the magazine “Tyr” for example).

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#44661 - 12/06/10 12:38 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: TheInsane]
HeimiricIX Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 75
Loc: Mexico City.
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
 Originally Posted By: HeimiricIX
I don't believe those who can't are to be called Satanists to begin with. So I would agree with manofsteel statement there


Fair enough if that is your definition. But if we would take that kind of definition to define every person of every faith, that is "you are only a _insert word_ if you are able to follow or practice the ideals of your choosen faith", then there would barely be any people of any religions around.


Not really, for the religions of LHP in general are an exception. We are the few. And that's how it's supossed to be.

Best
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#44662 - 12/06/10 01:25 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: HeimiricIX]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: HeimiricIX
Not really, for the religions of LHP in general are an exception. We are the few. And that's how it's supossed to be.


Agreed! And because its not for everyone, or even the most, we cant presuppose that everyone else can deal with its principles. This is why individualism cant be the norm in society and why most people need more restrictions and duties and not more freedoms. A need of goals instead of even more options etc.

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#44679 - 12/06/10 08:36 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Tasman]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA

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#44691 - 12/07/10 01:10 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Master Magick Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 63
Loc: New York, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I'll reply in general.

Many here seem to jump to conclusions pretty easily. First, I think there is a distinct difference between me saying that fascism is a system to herd the cattle and the claim that Satanists herd the cattle. I don't include the Satanist in these cattle because the Satanist herds himself; he is not governed by any form of government. The fact that many do seem to feel affected by any form of government shows just how easily they identify themselves with the mass. I can see advantages or disadvantages in certain kinds of government but ultimately they do not control what I do or can do; they merely set the prize-range for my actions.

Second, I didn't say Satanists dominate, I said all life forms dominate and it is, to me, an inherent, subconscious process; the main drive of all life. This implies that all human affairs are a constant battlefield. A system that egalizes like democracy will eventually fail because it is as much aligned with human nature as was communism. Fascism is much more aligned with human nature although we would need a newer version. People tend to get a blind spot in their thinking when the word fascism is uttered. They can't get past the holocaust "theme". Those are the same people that are often offended when outsiders can't get past the "devil" theme when Satanism is mentioned.

D.


Facism is no more aligned with human nature than democracy or any other political idealogy. Politics are simply not natural.

As for your notion that anyone is jumping to conclusions or following the masses, anyone can work within their own rules to an extent despite government or community standards. However, you are obviously living in a fantasy land where the government, police or other authorities have no sway over what you can say or do. Especially if you were living in a facist state.

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
 Originally Posted By: HeimiricIX
Not really, for the religions of LHP in general are an exception. We are the few. And that's how it's supossed to be.


Agreed! And because its not for everyone, or even the most, we cant presuppose that everyone else can deal with its principles. This is why individualism cant be the norm in society and why most people need more restrictions and duties and not more freedoms. A need of goals instead of even more options etc.


I said at the start I was not here to debate why Facism failed, I was only addressing the original post and have no desire to beat a dead and failed political idealogy with my whips.

I will say though that your last comment about people needing more rules and restrictions as opposed to freedoms is fundamentally flawed. While it's basically true, most slobs need to be led by the nose, it should not matter to the Satanist because no matter what the government or community standards and rules are, we will make do and succceed while the rest will go on their merry way into the abyss, like lemmings for the most part, and that is not and should not be our concern.
Stop wasting time thinking about the masses and what rules they need. The smart, strong Satanist will outlast them all \:\)
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Magick

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#44694 - 12/07/10 04:23 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Master Magick]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Tell me my friend; what can you NOT do under your government?

D.

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#44702 - 12/07/10 08:45 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
Master Magick Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 63
Loc: New York, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Tell me my friend; what can you NOT do under your government?

D.


I make it a point not to answer ridiculous questions. Enjoy your fantasy world ;\)
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Magick

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#44705 - 12/07/10 09:26 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Master Magick]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
No, you apparently like to babble a lot, while at the same time providing us pretty contradictory arguments, but when it comes to providing something substantial, you prefer to back out like a nancy.

If that's your choice, fine.

D.

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#44713 - 12/07/10 03:53 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Master Magick
I said at the start I was not here to debate why Facism failed, I was only addressing the original post and have no desire to beat a dead and failed political idealogy with my whips.


Still it was you who brought it up and it was you who can’t provide any proof or reasoning behind you claims that lack of individualism was a reason fascism failed when in reality it was its ability to unite the nation that was the source to its success. To me it feels like you are trying to slip away from the question since you have no good answer.

 Quote:
. . . it should not matter to the Satanist because no matter what the government or community standards and rules are, we will make do and succceed while the rest will go on their merry way into the abyss, like lemmings for the most part, and that is not and should not be our concern.


Now this is a mindset very common to Satanists which I loathe. You take the egoistic approach but only for the short term. I like to view myself as someone who thinks long term. Sure, the people who can adapt the best – or who can lead – will be able to rise above the rest. That doesn’t mean that I don’t care about how my country is run. There is a huge difference of being able to rise to the top, and what that entails, in North Korea compared to Germany. Or in Nigeria compared to Australia. I personally fight for the betterment of the environment because it will eventually affect me in a good way if I succeed, and it also makes me feel good having known I have made a difference. With the same reasoning I would rather succeed in a healthy and strong country than in a sick and broken society.
Sure I might still succeed if I were living in the Philadelphia ghettos but if I was from there and had any love for where I was from I would fight to change my surroundings for the better. And with better opportunities it is also easier to excel. So in short, its easy to just accept the condition of the world and only strive for direct personal success but I prefer to actually fight for a country that I can be proud of and that reflects how I think an ideal country should be run. It would benefit both me and the country – that is my belief.

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#44717 - 12/07/10 05:49 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: TheInsane]
HeimiricIX Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 75
Loc: Mexico City.
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
That doesn’t mean that I don’t care about how my country is run. There is a huge difference of being able to rise to the top, and what that entails, in North Korea compared to Germany. Or in Nigeria compared to Australia.


I agree with you, just a quick note, on the way I think there is also a huge difference between having a country that you consider yours and try to change it to better fit you and just being able to move to a better country when the need arises.

I consider both to be possible solutions for a Satanist, but the first could work well Only for the Satanist that considers himselft apt to play the politics / leadership game. For those, like me, who are uninterested, well, we are simply not interested.

Best.
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HeimiricIX - Made you look

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#44735 - 12/08/10 02:51 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: HeimiricIX]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Its very interesting that you should write that. I do believe that most people have a country, or region, that they call home. I am personally an immigrant, by my own choice, and I can really see how much I am shaped by my own culture and by my own area even though the two countries I have lived in don’t differ as much as some of the examples I gave above. There is only one place I think I can ever call my home and its so noticeable whenever I go back.

I have been very good at adapting and I have had no big problem doing so in regards to work and everything else. You just have to realize that you play for another team atm and adapt.
Furthermore I don’t see rising to the top as a goal in itself. I always say that to me happiness is what is worth striving for. True, I work in a very prestigious place right now – world famous and world leading – but I am not highly paid or high up the social ladder. In fact my former job in my home country – considered way less impressive by most – gave me loads more money. However, I thrive in the social atmosphere and the relations I create with people every day. So for me this little experience of totally changing my life for a while has been fruitful, not for my wallet but sure as hell for my personality \:\)

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#45236 - 12/19/10 01:28 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Meurig Offline
lurker


Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 3
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Don't confuse the substance of an ideology with whatever symbolism it uses.


Or vice versa?

Runic symbolism can be very hypnotic, if not outright opportunistic.
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