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#44568 - 12/02/10 05:37 AM SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism
Tasman Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 6
Loc: Poland, Gubin
 Originally Posted By: Lords of Chaos, Michael Moynihan and Didrik Søderlind

LaVey: … The aesthetics of National Socialism and Satanism dovetail.


 Originally Posted By: Patryk "Tasman" Paterek, Invocation of Destruction

Lightening cut clouds
And the ground trembling under alloys of hordes
They march out on my sign
To kill
To rape

They are White Demon of Vatican
Open a gate to another world
And cry...


What is Race? There is no "White Race". It is only nation! There is no "Human Race". It is only species.
Existing two human Races: Lords' Race and Slaves' Race.
Lords' Race then intelligent men, egoists, aristocrats.
Slaves' Race then stupid, mystical men. [read F. Nietzsche]

 Originally Posted By: Michael A. Aquino, Church of Satan, That Other Black Order

The Schutzstaffel placed the highest possible emphasis on symbolism, visual and otherwise. Every facet of the organization was intentionally portrayed so as to accent the elitism that the SS purported to foster. The color black, for example, has always elicited feelings of fear and respect. Thus those who wish to dominate others invariably choose black attire, whather they be executioners, clergy, policemen, judges, Wiccans, or Satanists. So the SS was uniformed in black and silver after the example of the Italian Fascisti, and there was no question of its aethetic appeal when compared to its SA rival.

The skull-and-crossbones may seem a rather juvenile insignia for a paramilitary organization, but, as the trademark of the SS, it produced the same intimidation of opponents that the "Jolly Roger" did during the days of sea piracy. In time the Nazis' already-dynamic swastika was rendered even more striking by turning it askance.


NS and Satanism dovetail. Dark image, symbolism [for example: one "S" - id est Sig-Rune - in Scandinavian mythology sign 'good', two "S" sign 'evil'. ] etc.

 Originally Posted By: Waffen SS in Colours

The last Waffen SS unit to be formed, the SS-Division (motorisiert) "Wiking" commanded by Felix Steiner, also had its own symbol in the form of a stylised "nordic" swastika, i.e. the "sunny wheel". The insignia was used until the end of the war.


Swastika [Gammadion] is symbol of the power, sun, abundance and strength.

In my opinion, Satanism are very similar to Fascism / Nazism.

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#44570 - 12/02/10 12:18 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Tasman]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tasman
In my opinion, Satanism is very similar to Fascism/Nazism.

No, they are fundamentally antithetical. Satanism is an extreme statement of individualism, while fascism & National Socialism exalt the immersion of the individual within the state:

 Originally Posted By: Adolf Hitler
To the Christian doctrine of the infinite significance of the individual human soul and of personal responsibility, I oppose with icy clarity the saving doctrine of the nothingness and insignificance of the individual human being, and of his continued existence in the visible immortality of the nation. The dogma of vicarious suffering and death through a divine savior gives place to that of the representative living and acting of the new Leader-legislator, which liberates the mass of the faithful from the burden of free will.

Don't confuse the substance of an ideology with whatever symbolism it uses.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#44613 - 12/05/10 09:21 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Tasman Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 6
Loc: Poland, Gubin
 Originally Posted By: Michael A. Aquino

Don't confuse the substance of an ideology with whatever symbolism it uses.


Nazi philosophy is stupid (economic policy and pseudo-racial concept "White Power") .

But symbolism...

 Originally Posted By: The Satanic Scriptures, Peter H. Gilmore, "The Fascism Question"

Satanists are aware of what impact words and images have on the herd, and thus
use them to their advantage. It should be clear to anyone who has observed human
society that there is an all-pervading interest on the part of the contemporary general
public in the Third Reich. Anyone with cable television or who happens to visit movie
theatres will see that Nazis are the standard archetype in entertainment for what the
masses deem to be evil, and they are fascinated with this dead government and fetishize it
to no end. Do you watch “The History Channel” (whose emblem is carved, angular letter
“H”)? We jokingly say that this really stands for “Hitler” not “History” as much of their
programming concerns analysis of the Third Reich.


 Originally Posted By: The Black Flame Vol.4, No. 3 and 4

...
On Fascism
It seems apparent that Nazism and fascism sell. It's too horrible to contemplate (smack lips)
(...)
If a neo-fascist look - and outlook - makes for men who look like men and women who like women, I'm all for it.


Many people have thought about the integration of NS symbolism into ritual ( for example, I ). Swastika, uniform of SS... This is the best in Die Elektrichen Volkspiele!

 Originally Posted By: Anton Szandor LaVey, Satanic Rituals"THE LAW OF THE TRAPEZOID DIE ELEKTRISCHEN VORSPIELE"

When Die elektrischen Vorspiele was performed in Nazi
Germany (circa 1932-35) by the intellectual element of the
budding Sicherheitsdienst RFS, the banners and symbols of
the time were used as an integral part of the decor. Participants
were garbed in full dress, whether uniformed or not. Topical
music was added-usually Morgenrot at the beginning and
Unsre Fahne Flattert uns Voran as a closing anthem. These
were played by the organist or on a gramophone. Music by
Richard Wagner may be used instead at the opening and closing
of the ritual

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#44615 - 12/05/10 09:43 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3115
Might add there are +60 years between now and then.
Ofcourse the old veteran and the traumatized jew who was born 2-3 generations after WWII still see National Socialism as the biggest evil on earth and will quote all bad things written by those mean people who are now long dead and burried while making a few bucks from it.

Reminds me of the desert fox, if I'm not mistaking his book about warfare at this day is still being used by all the world militaries as a guide/top reference material during training and for strategy purposes. Big bad nazi-scum..

Anyways, my jabbering aside, some tenests of national socialism (apart from certain symbolism) can be linked with Satanism. Also, after 60+ years national socialism has evolved a bit. Nowadays there is a place of individualism, now thinking of it; there always was...
National socialists, in fact, are very individualistic people. But they also get that particular song of U2 "sometimes you can't make it on your own".

I always have admired the Germans for their hands-on, no-bullshit approach. But then again, National Socialism isn't Satanism nor is it the other way round. Let us not confuse a way of living with an ideology shall we?

Also reminds me of a documentary of Louis Theroux: "Louis and the nazis". There is a vast difference between the National socialists from the 1940ies (and perhaps those VERY FEW who are true to the ideology) and those wannabe fuckers as portrayed in that particular documentary.


Edited by Dimitri (12/05/10 09:48 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#44623 - 12/05/10 02:34 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Since Satanism is not a political ideology you can't really say that this or that ideology is more or less Satanic (or antithetical or whatever). Satanists tend to choose political affiliation based on a society they see as fruitful and desireable. It can range from Fascism to Anarchism and everything in between.

Since Satanism has no firm and stable foundation because of its individualism it contains alot of interpretation and personal adaptation. Fascism in its essence is not about destroying the individual but about gathering a nation and make it work for a common goal and hopefully manage to create a more meaningful life and strengthen its individual parts. It recognizes both the need of individualism and collectivism - all in its ideal form of course.

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#44625 - 12/05/10 03:59 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Tasman]
Master Magick Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 63
Loc: New York, USA
There seems to be a need among some in and around Satanism and usually those new to Satanism to associate Satanism with Fascism/Nazism.

If you want to say that both have an understanding of symbols and how to use them, then say that. That does not make them similar. You could have used almost any group in your comparison including the Catholic church to make your point on symbolism and it might sound good but still would not be true.

Then you go on to quote others talking about aesthetics, movies and selling a 'look'... There are many fetishes and among them, clothing/uniforms. Among the uniform fetishes, military uniforms and guess what? Nazi uniforms are often worn by a Dominatrix. (so are Police and Nurse uniforms) Because a Dominatrix understands how to use the symbolism of a uniform does not make her idealogically aligned with Nazis, facists or health professionals!

Fascism has failed miserably due to many factors, not the least of which is its rejection of individualism and focus on a singular collective identity. Most un-Satanic.
_________________________
Magick

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#44629 - 12/05/10 05:14 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Master Magick]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Master Magick

Fascism has failed miserably due to many factors, not the least of which is its rejection of individualism and focus on a singular collective identity. Most un-Satanic.


The reason fascism failed was because it was, for the most part, on the losing side of a world war. Had the war not happened things would look very different. Fascism largely did have a positive impact on Italy before the war. Falangism in Spain survived the war and had booth good and bad impact. National Socialism made a remarkable job at saving Germanys economic situation and actually made them rich and powerful again in a surprisingly short time.

Now I do not agree on the racial aspects of NS for example but to say that they failed because of its rejection of individualism and focus on a singular collective identidy is probably very wrong. It is because they managed to unite the nation towards a common goal that they saved the German economy and thus helped its individual members (although they also made life worse for jews and others they regarded as a threat). Sadly for them the war destoyed all they tried to build.


Edited by TheInsane (12/05/10 05:18 PM)

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#44630 - 12/05/10 05:33 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Master Magick]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Master Magick
There seems to be a need among some in and around Satanism and usually those new to Satanism to associate Satanism with Fascism/Nazism.

If you want to say that both have an understanding of symbols and how to use them, then say that. That does not make them similar.


Frustrating, isn't it? But it's something that we see every day here at the ol' 600 Club. People trying to bend and warp Satanism to fit their own personal ideologies so that they can "claim the name without playing the game." It really wouldn't surprise me one bit if we didn't see a "LaVeyan Setian Church of Jesus" group popping up soon, or "Satanic Scouts of America."

If people would simply understand that not everything is Satanism, and not everyone is cut out to BE a Satanist, we might see a drop in such ludicrous postings, but alas, I think that the human capacity for self delusion is a bit stronger than that.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#44631 - 12/05/10 06:17 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Master Magick]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think the mantra that satanists are individuals is much ado about nothing, if not only because all humans are, and when all are; the concept becomes meaningless. Being an individual isn't a quality and does not make a satanist. What makes a satanist is by definition a shared characteristic; else there would be no Satanism; even when definitions upon Satanism might diverse.

Do fascism and Satanism match? Sure they do, even more; it should be the preferred solution to herd the cattle for a satanist. That's what it is all about; herding the mass, not the satanist.
If you, like me, do think the only purpose of life is to dominate, not replicate or survive as the popular idea goes, fascism makes most sense. It is a dominant form of governing which is much more aligned with human nature than an egalizer like democracy.

Nazism was spiffy at many levels but inevitable a thing of the past.

D.

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#44633 - 12/05/10 08:44 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
manofsteel Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Indiana U.S.
Diavolo, you have a general idea amongst satanists but you fail to see one thing, we don't kill thousands of people because of out beliefs or in a lesser sense we don't persicute them. We are who we are and we make the most of out lives without interfering with others, unless they are a problem to us. Just because you might think that you or your kind is superior does not mean that all others are inferior. I am not saying what you are putting out there is rigt or wrong but as a satanist I tell you that all satanists off all walks of life and ethecity can feel, think, and take care of themselves.
A dominint form of governing is getting people to stand up for themselves and get their asses out their and find jobs or if they have family's do whatever it is they have to do to survive. Not controlling anyone or anyone or anything as Gov't would have it. No, we need more individuals to stand up and take responsibility for their lives and their friends and family. Satanists don't control the masses, they take care of their own.
_________________________
Amongst the sheep emerges a wolf.

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#44636 - 12/05/10 09:46 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: manofsteel]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: manofsteel
Diavolo, you have a general idea amongst satanists but you fail to see one thing, we don't kill thousands of people because of out beliefs or in a lesser sense we don't persicute them. We are who we are and we make the most of out lives without interfering with others, unless they are a problem to us. Just because you might think that you or your kind is superior does not mean that all others are inferior. I am not saying what you are putting out there is rigt or wrong but as a satanist I tell you that all satanists off all walks of life and ethecity can feel, think, and take care of themselves.


It is not inherent in fascism to go out and kill thousands of people. Fascist Italy had an idea of class cooperation. They realized that not all people were equal but also that all were needed in a society but working on different levels.

Fascism does have blood on its hands but not more than democratic ideological countries have. Political systems always tend to have alot of blood on their hands just like religions that have had a great deal of power.

Now national socialism is sometimes called fascism but I like to make a distinction between NS ideology and fascism since the there is a fundamental difference in the view on race and blood.

Furthermore I do not agree with what you say that "all satanists off all walks of life and ethecity can feel, think, and take care of themselves". I think alot of Satanists live in a bubble and its easy to talk the talk but not walk the walk. However if you can walk the walk I do not care from what walk of life or what ethniticity you are. If you have deserved something you have deserved it. Simple as that.

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#44637 - 12/05/10 11:10 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: TheInsane]
HeimiricIX Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 75
Loc: Mexico City.
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
Furthermore I do not agree with what you say that "all satanists off all walks of life and ethecity can feel, think, and take care of themselves". I think alot of Satanists live in a bubble and its easy to talk the talk but not walk the walk. However if you can walk the walk I do not care from what walk of life or what ethniticity you are. If you have deserved something you have deserved it. Simple as that.


I don't believe those who can't are to be called Satanists to begin with. So I would agree with manofsteel statement there.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Do fascism and Satanism match? Sure they do, even more; it should be the preferred solution to herd the cattle for a satanist. That's what it is all about; herding the mass, not the satanist.
If you, like me, do think the only purpose of life is to dominate...


But what if that is not the case? In the sense I care almost next to nothing about politics, I see politics as a diversion for myself and give them no interest nor power in my life choices.

I do not care to dominate anyone. I do not care to be a leader, for being a leader usually binds you to those under your care. If you were to be a fascist ruler in a country where I lived there is a chance that, since I don't care to play the politics game, whatever rules you apply there may stop or hinder me in whatever way I choose to live my life.

For someone like myself, who cares nothing about the country where he lives and would without a doubt change it if the situation in there would become conuterproductive, I believe a democratic state where noone really pays attention is better suited to live.

Best.
_________________________
HeimiricIX - Made you look

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#44639 - 12/05/10 11:26 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: TheInsane]
Master Magick Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 63
Loc: New York, USA
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
 Originally Posted By: Master Magick

Fascism has failed miserably due to many factors, not the least of which is its rejection of individualism and focus on a singular collective identity. Most un-Satanic.


The reason fascism failed was because it was, for the most part, on the losing side of a world war. Had the war not happened things would look very different. Fascism largely did have a positive impact on Italy before the war. Falangism in Spain survived the war and had booth good and bad impact. National Socialism made a remarkable job at saving Germanys economic situation and actually made them rich and powerful again in a surprisingly short time.

Now I do not agree on the racial aspects of NS for example but to say that they failed because of its rejection of individualism and focus on a singular collective identidy is probably very wrong. It is because they managed to unite the nation towards a common goal that they saved the German economy and thus helped its individual members (although they also made life worse for jews and others they regarded as a threat). Sadly for them the war destoyed all they tried to build.


I said it failed due to "many factors", not solely because of its rejection of individualism. However, that is a huge factor.
Yes, the Italian facists and nazis are gone cause they lost the war, and all the revisionist history in the world won't change that. "Sadly for them"? They lost, gone, done, dead. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Using "what if" they hadn't lost and look how good the economy was doesn't change that fact that it failed due to the decisions that were made. Those decisions were based on their failed ideaology. Losers don't get to say 'that it seemed like a good idea at the time'.

My point however, wasn't to debate why facism and nazism are failures, but why facist/nazi symbolism has nothing whatsoever to do with Satanism, except maybe if you are dressing to intimidate or impress.
_________________________
Magick

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#44640 - 12/05/10 11:44 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Jake999]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
It really wouldn't surprise me one bit if we didn't see a "LaVeyan Setian Church of Jesus" group popping up soon, or "Satanic Scouts of America."

“A SCOUT IS REVERENT”
- by Michael A. Aquino VI°
The Scroll of Set, October 1991

I have been following with some bemusement lately the continued writhing of the Boy Scouts of America in the matter of religion. Several cases have made the news recently, among them that of two boys in California who were expelled for not saying “God” while taking the Scout Oath, and that of an Illinois boy who was not permitted to join the BSA because his father would not sign a religious oath. When confronted on these issues, BSA spokesmen have mumbled defensively that the organization requires “a belief in God” as a part of its basic tenets.

This is a hoot. As with the “under God” phrase of the Pledge of Allegiance, the “duty to God” phrase of the Scout Oath and the “A Scout is Reverent” part of the Scout Law have always been understood by those reciting them as mere symbolism of one’s sincerity. I duly [and openly] became an Eagle Scout without ever being a member of any church or otherwise being expected to “be religious”, and three years before I joined the Church of Satan I served a term as National Commander of the Eagle Scout Honor Society.

Moreover there is a good deal of non-Godism in the BSA as it is presently constituted. Among its approved religious awards, for example, is the Buddhist Sangha Award. Buddhists, in case no one noticed, don’t believe in the Judæo/Christian “God”.

Those selected for Scouting’s internal honor society, the Order of the Arrow, enjoy a delightful dose of American Indian magical and religious ritual, to include [in our lodge] annual reenactments of the famous flesh-tearing Sun Dance of the Teton Sioux. I guess my conduct was acceptable to the ghost-chief Allowat Sakima, as in due course I received the O/A’s highest “Vigil Honor”.

The rituals of the Knights of Dunamis, the Eagle Scout Honor Society, were all based upon the Grail Quest of Arthurian legend, with all of its pleasantly-sinister magical and mystical overtones. By the time I became National Commander in 1965, I had received an excellent education in Grail-occultism, both Christian and non-Christian, which stood me in good stead a short time later when I penned “In Search of the Unholy Grail” for the Church of Satan’s Cloven Hoof.

All in all, the exposure to mystery, magic, and mysticism I received in the BSA probably served as a major stimulant to my interest in the Church of Satan a couple of years later. Be Prepared and all that.


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#44641 - 12/05/10 11:55 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Master Magick Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 63
Loc: New York, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I think the mantra that satanists are individuals is much ado about nothing, if not only because all humans are, and when all are; the concept becomes meaningless. Being an individual isn't a quality and does not make a satanist. What makes a satanist is by definition a shared characteristic; else there would be no Satanism; even when definitions upon Satanism might diverse.

Do fascism and Satanism match? Sure they do, even more; it should be the preferred solution to herd the cattle for a satanist. That's what it is all about; herding the mass, not the satanist.
If you, like me, do think the only purpose of life is to dominate, not replicate or survive as the popular idea goes, fascism makes most sense. It is a dominant form of governing which is much more aligned with human nature than an egalizer like democracy.

Nazism was spiffy at many levels but inevitable a thing of the past.

D.


Your assertation that all humans are individuals is true, most of them are individually drooling on themselves while watching 'reality tv'. However "Satanic Individuals" are not just your everyday humans. A Satanist can stand out from the herd in a myriad of ways, some obvious, some not, but a true Satanist will be a standout. That may be as a successful businessperson, actor, farmer or community organizer, etc. The point being, a Satanic Individual will always rise above, aspire to be the best at whatever they choose to be. For the most part, facsim does not allow for that.

Why the Hell would a Satanist want to herd the cattle? They graze just fine on their own. I personally like mine out in the fields of everyday life where they make themselves painfully obvious 24/7. I have no idea where you live but I can't imagine wanting to live under anyones thumb in a facist state.

Facism and Satnism do not match. That's a ludicrous statement. A Satanist could perhaps approve of a facist government, but only if it was not governing him! A facist government would not allow for Satanic beliefs so let's stop the nonsense.

Finally if you can find anything 'spiffy' about Nazism besides the ss uniforms, you're pretty much a lost cause...
_________________________
Magick

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#44643 - 12/06/10 12:45 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Master Magick]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Master Magick
Finally if you can find anything 'spiffy' about Nazism besides the ss uniforms, you're pretty much a lost cause...

Well, about those SS uniforms ...

When I was teaching Comparative Politics at the university, I used to startle students a bit by saying that NS Germany was really not a political system at all; it was a 12-year rock concert. Dust gathered on Albert Speer's elegant conference table in the Cabinet Room of the new Reich Chancellery because no one ever bothered to use it. The Führer made policy and issued orders, and progressively-lower functionaries made their subordinate policies and issued orders. Everyone did what he was told.

The problem with personality-driven dictatorships is that they're very brittle, because they're vulnerable to superior-whim, and of course the eventual death, retirement, or removal of the rock star leaves the whole house of cards very shaky.

Remember that NS Germany was around for only 12 years, the last 6 of which were wartime. It really had no opportunity to mature past the rock-concert stage.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#44645 - 12/06/10 02:26 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino


When I was teaching Comparative Politics at the university, I used to startle students a bit by saying that NS Germany was really not a political system at all; it was a 12-year rock concert.


That's a great way to put it. Being a student of History myself, and having been stationed in Germany for three years, I did a lot of studying into some of the photography of the WWII era, When you looked into the faces of the crowds at the rallies, you saw the same adulation and fanatical awe we reserve these days for rock stars and porn stars. This was love... devotion... almost ecstatic rapture, if you will, and I'm not talking about big-busted Rheinmaidens or slavering storm troopers... just faces of women in the crowd, and men... kids too... in awe of just seeing "der Fuhrer."

And these were rallies that brought out thousands and thousands or Germans. Not all Germans were members of the Nazi Party. It was politically or economically beneficial to be a party member, but for the mainstream German, love of country and love of its leadership transcended mere party allegiances. This was HITLER, the man who, just a few short years ago, promised bread and jobs and an end to crippling inflation. To many, these years before the carpet bombing and starvation and the Eastern Front WERE the good old days.

That idea was maintained in the theater of the Rally. The pageantry of the Third Reich and its well tailored ushers (SS and troops in their freshly pressed uniforms) kept the audience's attention and made them forget that the theater was basically a facade.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#44649 - 12/06/10 04:45 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'll reply in general.

Many here seem to jump to conclusions pretty easily. First, I think there is a distinct difference between me saying that fascism is a system to herd the cattle and the claim that Satanists herd the cattle. I don't include the Satanist in these cattle because the Satanist herds himself; he is not governed by any form of government. The fact that many do seem to feel affected by any form of government shows just how easily they identify themselves with the mass. I can see advantages or disadvantages in certain kinds of government but ultimately they do not control what I do or can do; they merely set the prize-range for my actions.

Second, I didn't say Satanists dominate, I said all life forms dominate and it is, to me, an inherent, subconscious process; the main drive of all life. This implies that all human affairs are a constant battlefield. A system that egalizes like democracy will eventually fail because it is as much aligned with human nature as was communism. Fascism is much more aligned with human nature although we would need a newer version. People tend to get a blind spot in their thinking when the word fascism is uttered. They can't get past the holocaust "theme". Those are the same people that are often offended when outsiders can't get past the "devil" theme when Satanism is mentioned.

About the looks of awe and adoration during the Hitler rallies. The same expressions can be witnessed when any leader speaks. During the past or the present. That’s how a follower looks like. There were and will be plenty of them.

D.

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#44657 - 12/06/10 08:42 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: HeimiricIX
I don't believe those who can't are to be called Satanists to begin with. So I would agree with manofsteel statement there


Fair enough if that is your definition. But if we would take that kind of definition to define every person of every faith, that is "you are only a _insert word_ if you are able to follow or practice the ideals of your choosen faith", then there would barely be any people of any religions around.

 Originally Posted By: Master Magick
I said it failed due to "many factors", not solely because of its rejection of individualism. However, that is a huge factor.


Can you give any examples at all of how fascism failed because of the lack of individualism?

 Quote:
Using "what if" they hadn't lost and look how good the economy was doesn't change that fact that it failed due to the decisions that were made. Those decisions were based on their failed ideaology. Losers don't get to say 'that it seemed like a good idea at the time'.


They did fail because they lost the war and it was because wrong decisions were being made by humans. The ideology never really got a chance to fail on its own. I am convinced that Mussolinis Italy would have thrived if not for the decision to enter the war (they had good contacts with both the US and the UK for example). It wasn’t and ideological decision that brought them down – it was a tactical error. Or you might have some new revolutionarizing information about how the foundations of Fascist Italy were what really brought them down. ;\)

 Originally Posted By: Master Magick
The point being, a Satanic Individual will always rise above, aspire to be the best at whatever they choose to be. For the most part, facsim does not allow for that.


Fascism is, in its core essence, meritocratic and hails hierarchical systems that are supposed to recognize individual effort. Democracy equals quantity over quality and, to use the words of Mr. D, the prize range they set for individuals actions are way off from what I want to see a society strive for (because they only regards immediate success and profits without a plan for the future).

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Why the Hell would a Satanist want to herd the cattle? They graze just fine on their own.


I don’t think they do. And to me a society where people work against a common goal, the strengthening of the nation, is preferable since it will lead to better things for its inhabitants (if applied correctly that is). If you scratch my back I’ll scratch yours. It would not strive to suck out every natural resource a country has – like we do today. To me that is far better than the use and abuse of the world we live in today.
Individualism is fine for a few but to build a society where the foundation is that every man has the right to do whatever he or she wants is not something I would strive for. Too much freedoms will create chaos and a downward spiral for the whole nation in due time. The economic system of most of the western world today is quite a good indicator of that – and people probably wont learn from experience either.
Satanism never claimed to be for the many and therefore a political system that strives to build on individualistic principles of Satanism isn’t a very good idea. Only a few people can deal with the freedoms given by a liberal country (which almost all western countries are, more or less, no matter what the official ideology of the ruling party is). Satanism is about the right man in the right place. It hails hierarchy and stratification. Fascism does as well. The difference being that Satanism is an ideology for the few and never should strive to being a ruling way of thinking while Fascism was designed to lead a nation towards greatness.


And again I have to say that I whole-heartedly agree with Diavolo in what he (?) writes. The Nietzschean foundation is something that I share. The essence of the world is not survival but it is in power relations and the preservation of the species (not necessarily preservation of ones owns life).
And yes, we cant look back to what Italy did under Mussolini and copy that. However if we can manage to update the Fascist doctrines as a leading political ideology I think that would be much preferable to what we have today. That is one reason I follow the advancements of Nouvelle Droite with interest. A cultural movement which does have its ties with prominent Satanists and also Setians (check out the magazine “Tyr” for example).

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#44661 - 12/06/10 12:38 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: TheInsane]
HeimiricIX Offline
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Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 75
Loc: Mexico City.
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
 Originally Posted By: HeimiricIX
I don't believe those who can't are to be called Satanists to begin with. So I would agree with manofsteel statement there


Fair enough if that is your definition. But if we would take that kind of definition to define every person of every faith, that is "you are only a _insert word_ if you are able to follow or practice the ideals of your choosen faith", then there would barely be any people of any religions around.


Not really, for the religions of LHP in general are an exception. We are the few. And that's how it's supossed to be.

Best
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#44662 - 12/06/10 01:25 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: HeimiricIX]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: HeimiricIX
Not really, for the religions of LHP in general are an exception. We are the few. And that's how it's supossed to be.


Agreed! And because its not for everyone, or even the most, we cant presuppose that everyone else can deal with its principles. This is why individualism cant be the norm in society and why most people need more restrictions and duties and not more freedoms. A need of goals instead of even more options etc.

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#44679 - 12/06/10 08:36 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Tasman]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA

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#44691 - 12/07/10 01:10 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Master Magick Offline
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Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 63
Loc: New York, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I'll reply in general.

Many here seem to jump to conclusions pretty easily. First, I think there is a distinct difference between me saying that fascism is a system to herd the cattle and the claim that Satanists herd the cattle. I don't include the Satanist in these cattle because the Satanist herds himself; he is not governed by any form of government. The fact that many do seem to feel affected by any form of government shows just how easily they identify themselves with the mass. I can see advantages or disadvantages in certain kinds of government but ultimately they do not control what I do or can do; they merely set the prize-range for my actions.

Second, I didn't say Satanists dominate, I said all life forms dominate and it is, to me, an inherent, subconscious process; the main drive of all life. This implies that all human affairs are a constant battlefield. A system that egalizes like democracy will eventually fail because it is as much aligned with human nature as was communism. Fascism is much more aligned with human nature although we would need a newer version. People tend to get a blind spot in their thinking when the word fascism is uttered. They can't get past the holocaust "theme". Those are the same people that are often offended when outsiders can't get past the "devil" theme when Satanism is mentioned.

D.


Facism is no more aligned with human nature than democracy or any other political idealogy. Politics are simply not natural.

As for your notion that anyone is jumping to conclusions or following the masses, anyone can work within their own rules to an extent despite government or community standards. However, you are obviously living in a fantasy land where the government, police or other authorities have no sway over what you can say or do. Especially if you were living in a facist state.

 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
 Originally Posted By: HeimiricIX
Not really, for the religions of LHP in general are an exception. We are the few. And that's how it's supossed to be.


Agreed! And because its not for everyone, or even the most, we cant presuppose that everyone else can deal with its principles. This is why individualism cant be the norm in society and why most people need more restrictions and duties and not more freedoms. A need of goals instead of even more options etc.


I said at the start I was not here to debate why Facism failed, I was only addressing the original post and have no desire to beat a dead and failed political idealogy with my whips.

I will say though that your last comment about people needing more rules and restrictions as opposed to freedoms is fundamentally flawed. While it's basically true, most slobs need to be led by the nose, it should not matter to the Satanist because no matter what the government or community standards and rules are, we will make do and succceed while the rest will go on their merry way into the abyss, like lemmings for the most part, and that is not and should not be our concern.
Stop wasting time thinking about the masses and what rules they need. The smart, strong Satanist will outlast them all \:\)
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Magick

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#44694 - 12/07/10 04:23 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Master Magick]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Tell me my friend; what can you NOT do under your government?

D.

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#44702 - 12/07/10 08:45 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
Master Magick Offline
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Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 63
Loc: New York, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Tell me my friend; what can you NOT do under your government?

D.


I make it a point not to answer ridiculous questions. Enjoy your fantasy world ;\)
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Magick

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#44705 - 12/07/10 09:26 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Master Magick]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
No, you apparently like to babble a lot, while at the same time providing us pretty contradictory arguments, but when it comes to providing something substantial, you prefer to back out like a nancy.

If that's your choice, fine.

D.

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#44713 - 12/07/10 03:53 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Master Magick
I said at the start I was not here to debate why Facism failed, I was only addressing the original post and have no desire to beat a dead and failed political idealogy with my whips.


Still it was you who brought it up and it was you who can’t provide any proof or reasoning behind you claims that lack of individualism was a reason fascism failed when in reality it was its ability to unite the nation that was the source to its success. To me it feels like you are trying to slip away from the question since you have no good answer.

 Quote:
. . . it should not matter to the Satanist because no matter what the government or community standards and rules are, we will make do and succceed while the rest will go on their merry way into the abyss, like lemmings for the most part, and that is not and should not be our concern.


Now this is a mindset very common to Satanists which I loathe. You take the egoistic approach but only for the short term. I like to view myself as someone who thinks long term. Sure, the people who can adapt the best – or who can lead – will be able to rise above the rest. That doesn’t mean that I don’t care about how my country is run. There is a huge difference of being able to rise to the top, and what that entails, in North Korea compared to Germany. Or in Nigeria compared to Australia. I personally fight for the betterment of the environment because it will eventually affect me in a good way if I succeed, and it also makes me feel good having known I have made a difference. With the same reasoning I would rather succeed in a healthy and strong country than in a sick and broken society.
Sure I might still succeed if I were living in the Philadelphia ghettos but if I was from there and had any love for where I was from I would fight to change my surroundings for the better. And with better opportunities it is also easier to excel. So in short, its easy to just accept the condition of the world and only strive for direct personal success but I prefer to actually fight for a country that I can be proud of and that reflects how I think an ideal country should be run. It would benefit both me and the country – that is my belief.

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#44717 - 12/07/10 05:49 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: TheInsane]
HeimiricIX Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 75
Loc: Mexico City.
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
That doesn’t mean that I don’t care about how my country is run. There is a huge difference of being able to rise to the top, and what that entails, in North Korea compared to Germany. Or in Nigeria compared to Australia.


I agree with you, just a quick note, on the way I think there is also a huge difference between having a country that you consider yours and try to change it to better fit you and just being able to move to a better country when the need arises.

I consider both to be possible solutions for a Satanist, but the first could work well Only for the Satanist that considers himselft apt to play the politics / leadership game. For those, like me, who are uninterested, well, we are simply not interested.

Best.
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#44735 - 12/08/10 02:51 AM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: HeimiricIX]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Its very interesting that you should write that. I do believe that most people have a country, or region, that they call home. I am personally an immigrant, by my own choice, and I can really see how much I am shaped by my own culture and by my own area even though the two countries I have lived in don’t differ as much as some of the examples I gave above. There is only one place I think I can ever call my home and its so noticeable whenever I go back.

I have been very good at adapting and I have had no big problem doing so in regards to work and everything else. You just have to realize that you play for another team atm and adapt.
Furthermore I don’t see rising to the top as a goal in itself. I always say that to me happiness is what is worth striving for. True, I work in a very prestigious place right now – world famous and world leading – but I am not highly paid or high up the social ladder. In fact my former job in my home country – considered way less impressive by most – gave me loads more money. However, I thrive in the social atmosphere and the relations I create with people every day. So for me this little experience of totally changing my life for a while has been fruitful, not for my wallet but sure as hell for my personality \:\)

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#45236 - 12/19/10 01:28 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Meurig Offline
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Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 3
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Don't confuse the substance of an ideology with whatever symbolism it uses.


Or vice versa?

Runic symbolism can be very hypnotic, if not outright opportunistic.
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#47373 - 01/25/11 05:39 PM Re: SS, Totenkopf, Gammadion & Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
BaronVonShankly Offline
member


Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 168
Loc: London
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
 Originally Posted By: Master Magick
Finally if you can find anything 'spiffy' about Nazism besides the ss uniforms, you're pretty much a lost cause...

Well, about those SS uniforms ...

When I was teaching Comparative Politics at the university, I used to startle students a bit by saying that NS Germany was really not a political system at all; it was a 12-year rock concert. Dust gathered on Albert Speer's elegant conference table in the Cabinet Room of the new Reich Chancellery because no one ever bothered to use it. The Führer made policy and issued orders, and progressively-lower functionaries made their subordinate policies and issued orders. Everyone did what he was told.

The problem with personality-driven dictatorships is that they're very brittle, because they're vulnerable to superior-whim, and of course the eventual death, retirement, or removal of the rock star leaves the whole house of cards very shaky.

Remember that NS Germany was around for only 12 years, the last 6 of which were wartime. It really had no opportunity to mature past the rock-concert stage.



This is true I mean one of the few facist dictators to survive the war was Franco, obviously because Spain remained neutral, anyway what happened when Franco died? there was no one to take over from him who was as good as a leader and so Spain was forced to return to a democracy.

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