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#44840 - 12/11/10 12:22 PM Adversary to another Adversary:Communication.
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
When it comes to Satanism, it all comes down to how that individual communicates their definition of what "Satanism" is. For example, is it hocus pocus or is it rooted in self meaning and gratification? Spirituality can have many twists and turns and the spiritual Satanist will run into many road blockages as a theistic Satanist will when coming head to head with an atheistic Satanist.

For these reasons, it's to be highly suggested, that when one speaks up their spiritually or non-spiritually inclined path of Satanism, they should first have knowledge of the other. Much like when a Satanist takes their stand against a xtian. There are values coming from both sides and even if one doesn't accept the other side for anything but gibberish, there must be an understanding of that side in order to have anything to stand on when going toe to toe. Also, it is important to understand that the more you know about an opposite stance, the better off you are.

If these things are not stated in a way that is understandable to the other side, whether that side chooses to see it as valid or not, then there is usually an inclination to fight rather than discuss what each side is about.

Note: I know this is a very basic idea that I am posting about. Thus my placing it in 101 rather than anywhere else. Also, yes, a version of this IS posted elsewhere. However, I like input, if any, from different sides of the court so to speak sometimes.


Edited by OrgasmicKarmatic (12/11/10 12:32 PM)
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#44850 - 12/11/10 04:08 PM Re: Adversary to another Adversary:Communication. [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
mountaingoat Offline
member


Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 471
Loc: Colorado
I like to learn as much as I can about anything that I can, but why bother "squaring off" with anyone over their beliefs? What benefit will it bring to me? Is there any productive outcome?

Also, I don't think that the "hocus pocus" is dependent on or limited to theistic or spiritual Satanism. This has been discussed before many times, but lacking an explanation for Magic makes it no less real. We don't need to jump to illogical conclusions about the source of Magical workings. If you did it, you did it. It doesn't matter HOW it works, it only matters THAT it works.
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“The human race is unimportant. It is the self that must not be betrayed."

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#44854 - 12/11/10 05:01 PM Fake Dilemmas [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Aklo Offline
member


Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
 Quote:
For example, is it hocus pocus or is it rooted in self meaning and gratification?


Why can't it be both? Whenever we get hard choices like this, there is almost certainly a better alternative than either. And we are expected to embody that very alternative.

 Originally Posted By: Anton Szandor LaVey
There are not always "two sides to every issue." That statement is a ridiculous slogan invoked by vested interests and perpetuated by minds of limited scope.

In matters of signification concern, there is invariably another alternative: a THIRD SIDE, a Satanic side.

"Two sides of the same coin" is what most major issues are artfully constructed to be. Subsequently, the populace lives by imperceptible Hobson's choices masquerading as opposing opinions.


If you want my view about what to believe about magic, and when, it's in my first post.

 Quote:
Spirituality can have many twists and turns


What do you mean when you say "sprituality"? Assuming you are using the word the way most people tend to, all you are talking about is a semantic ghost.

 Originally Posted By: Hughes Mearns
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
I wish, I wish he’d go away...


Magic consists of using these wicked spirits ourselves, rather than being used by means of them. If you believe anything is "true", then you have been duped by super-intelligent black magicians.

 Originally Posted By: Hassan i Sabbah
Nothing is true; everything is permissible


As for gibberish, clarify your thinking and writing, follow every thought through to its logical conclusion and see if it survives the process or not. Language is our slave, not our master.

 Originally Posted By: Milton Drake
Mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey
A kiddley divey too, wooden shoe?
_________________________
Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#44857 - 12/11/10 08:53 PM Re: Communication.x. [Re: Aklo]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
Reading through this.. I am missing THIS other half of the thread:

Whichever way you go about the debate though, each side must keep in mind that they will not usually see eye to eye and trying to change the opinion of someone who is an Atheist/Theist, is not the better option for either party.

Personally, I do not see a point in claiming sides. As nearly everyone knows quite well, I am a hater of adjectives. (Perhaps from lessons learned in a previous arena of debate.) I believe that they are simply used as a reason to fight rather than have a civil debate. However, many go on a life long journey throughout every dictionary or book there is to be able to answer, "what type of Satanist are you?". Why this is? That is subjective to the individual trying to cross the bridge from saying "I am a Satanist, I choose this label for myself and while acknowledging it, I will live my life in the fashion I deem Satanically acceptable" to "I am ______ Satanist. I have these doctrines and these tenets because I follow everything to T and that's just what fits me ftm".

Whichever road you choose to make, communication is extremely important. Not just what you are choosing to say but also, how you approach the matter. If you choose to address the matter at all.


 Originally Posted By: mountaingoat
What benefit will it bring to me? Is there any productive outcome?


Actually, if you choose to have a go around or a discussion with someone that is of another shade of Satanism, it CAN be extremely beneficial to you. Especially if you are the type of person that would like to get to know about it all. Seeing from anothers perspective, if they can communicate it correctly (or ya know, don't miss half of their thread in the making of a post like I did), can help you understand that side a bit more properly. Even if you do not accept it.

The unproductive outcome of a debate or discuss only comes to pass when it becomes an argument and the points are lost in semantic details. Or, in other words, the go around becomes fisticuffs.

 Originally Posted By: Aklo
Why can't it be both? Whenever we get hard choices like this, there is almost certainly a better alternative than either. And we are expected to embody that very alternative.


Would you want to fly a flag under something considered "hocus pocus" in nature? It SHOULD be rooted, in all shades of Satanism, in self meaning and gratification. Sure, there may be an alternative and it's choice to find one. I am not expected to embody anything that I can dismiss. If I dismiss hocus pocus, I am permitted to do so.


 Originally Posted By: Alko
There are not always "two sides to every issue." That statement is a ridiculous slogan invoked by vested interests and perpetuated by minds of limited scope.

In matters of signification concern, there is invariably another alternative: a THIRD SIDE, a Satanic side. ASL


Of course and within Satanism there is more than two sides as well. Of which this post is talking about the communication capabilities between all of them. \:\)


 Originally Posted By: Aklo
What do you mean when you say "sprituality"? Assuming you are using the word the way most people tend to, all you are talking about is a semantic ghost.


I am actually going to try to tackle this one down for you. From my understanding, there are many different perspectives of what "spirituality" really is. There are those that take it down to an almost mystics understanding of it.. thus, the "semantic ghost" and there are others that actually ride on the back of "Spiritual Satanism". It seems a bit early on in my discussions with individuals that claim this but what I gather, is that the spiritual side of Satanism is very much of self and soul. Spiritual Satanists that I have ran into rarely claim Atheism and there is even one that doesn't claim either side.

When I say that spirituality can have twists and turns, this is what I am talking about. Even the concept of spirituality can't be tied down by a single person except by that person's subjective holding on the word.


 Originally Posted By: Aklo
Magic consists of using these wicked spirits ourselves, rather than being used by means of them. If you believe anything is "true", then you have been duped by super-intelligent black magicians.


It's interesting to me that you can hop and skip from asking me what spiritualism is to inputting that we are to "use these wicked spirits". If you don't mind me asking, what "wicked spirits" am I supposed to be using again? Where do they come from? What permits them to exist if they do really exist? They don't look like clowns right? I have some issues with clowns.

I make it a point to question everything. For the most part I tend to over think things. Sometimes, this is where a problem lies for me. Something that is important for you to get out, is not always as important to the next person to read. Although, I do suggest you read the last half of this thread that was left out by mistake. On any account, if you are already all the way down here, perhaps you already have.

On the other hand
 Originally Posted By: Alexander Hamilton
Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.
_________________________
I am a ghost.x
http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#44858 - 12/11/10 10:00 PM deus ex machina [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Aklo Offline
member


Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
 Quote:
If you don't mind me asking, what "wicked spirits" am I supposed to be using again?

Semantic ghosts, of course. Little men who aren't there. I'm not hopping around, it's a continuous train of thought. Devils and spooks are tricks of the brain. Learn to do these tricks, instead of falling for them.

 Quote:
Where do they come from?

Your brain, your genes, the formative experiences of our species over millions of years. And thus, also, his brain, her brain, their brains. Which is very convenient when you go to manipulate yourself and others.

 Quote:
What permits them to exist if they do really exist?

They don't exist, except in our shared consciousness of language and instinct. This is what makes them so powerful.

 Quote:
They don't look like clowns right?

Exactly like clowns.

 Quote:
I have some issues with clowns.

Enormous stinking circus clowns, with fire in their eyes.

 Quote:
Would you want to fly a flag under something considered "hocus pocus" in nature?

I want to fly a flag "in the midst of your palaces".

 Quote:
Of course and within Satanism there is more than two sides as well.

I don't think there are. Firstly "everyone I know who is right always agrees with me." But beyond that, just because Army plays Navy, or Charlie outgames Dog, doesn't mean that our armed services are actually having an insurrection.

We like to fight! We need practice. There's no hard feelings involved, or if there are, it's somebody else's problem, not mine.

 Quote:
Even the concept of spirituality can't be tied down by a single person except by that person's subjective holding on the word.

Right, because it's all in your head. You are the sole authority on the contents of your own brain. So why not fill it with useful things, rather than things that enslave you?

 Originally Posted By: Anton Szandor LaVey
The "intellectual decompression chamber" of the Satanic temple might be considered a training school for temporary ignorance, as are ALL religious services! The difference is that the Satanist KNOWS he is practicing a form of contrived ignorance in order to expand his will, whereas another religionist doesn't - or if he does know, he practices that form of self-deceit which forbids such recognition. His ego is already too shaky from his religious inculcation to allow himself to admit to such a thing as self-imposed ignorance!

Anything you "believe" can and will be used against you.

 Quote:
Alexander Hammilton

Super-intelligent black magician; invented the Federal Reserve. Paraphrasing Ben Franklin of the Hellfire Club. "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

_________________________
Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#44860 - 12/11/10 10:43 PM Re: deus ex machina [Re: Aklo]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: Aklo
Quote:
They don't look like clowns right?

Exactly like clowns.

Quote:
I have some issues with clowns.

Enormous stinking circus clowns, with fire in their eyes.



Oh boy, I think I am going to have issues with these wicked spirits. I don't really have much use for stinky clowns with fire in their eyes. You can keep that. I am going to go lurk your magic thread in a moment but I think I should mention, that when I read of the usage of wicked spirits, it seems as though you are speaking of external entities.

 Originally Posted By: Aklo
Magic consists of using these wicked spirits ourselves, rather than being used by means of them.


This ^^^^

Otherwise, if it is not an external but rather an internal as you suggest:

 Originally Posted By: Aklo

They don't exist, except in our shared consciousness of language and instinct.


Here^^^^^

Then I would only have to say that it seems to me that you might just very well pegged a spiritualists viewpoint (at least from what I have gathered from spiritualists that I have had discussions with previously on the same topic) on magic and my explanation is not needed further in that subject. (Spirituality that is. ;D)

 Originally Posted By: Aklo
I want to fly a flag "in the midst of your palaces".


I almost don't want to ask but curiosity strikes me. Whatever do you mean by this? Forgive my lack of follow, if you will.


 Originally Posted By: Aklo
I don't think there are. Firstly "everyone I know who is right always agrees with me." But beyond that, just because Army plays Navy, or Charlie outgames Dog, doesn't mean that our armed services are actually having an insurrection.

We like to fight! We need practice. There's no hard feelings involved, or if there are, it's somebody else's problem, not mine.


You don't think that there are other people out there that see Satanism in a different light than you do? Are you missing the various adjectives thrown around? Heh, I understand the concept though, of your Satanism being the only Satanism because you said so. It's relative to you, it works for you, kudos for you.

We DO need debate, we DO need fighting but only to a certain degree. I can agree and jump on the gravy train that sometimes fighting is just as usable in life as getting along..

BUT

If you are debating or fighting over something and you can't even remember how it started, how is it of any use to anyone? I don't advocate hugging (in fact, I'm one of those "don't touch me types", so I'd prefer all riders keep their hands to themselves) but I don't advocate useless bickering either. (At least I try not to.)

There's no hard feelings on my side and in this instance, for example, I would not consider this bickering nor fighting. Maybe not even debate. I've become accustomed to seeing you around my threads, for whatever purpose you may have for it.

 Originally Posted By: Aklo
Anything you "believe" can and will be used against you.


Hey, by all means, hold it against me. I certainly do. xD Furthermore, I encourage critiquing as it provides a lot more for me than it may seem. If it doesn't hold up, then it's back to drawing board for something stronger eh?
_________________________
I am a ghost.x
http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#44861 - 12/11/10 11:02 PM communification [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Aklo Offline
member


Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
Anyone who is still having trouble following Lexi's arguments, you may have better luck with the "spoken word" version

The Ooze

 Quote:
Whatever do you mean by this?


LOL, it's funnier in the original Enochian, I guess.

This girl, her bf wanted to do her in the butt. She was like No Way. He's like Why not? Why not? She says Cause it'll HURT! He goes No it won't! and she says Yes it will! and so on. Finally he says Well if it hurts, I will stop. She makes him promise.

So they get to doing it, at first it's just like, Weird. But OK. But then she starts to feel warm, then it's like, ripping, burning, like OW OW OW STOP IT HURTS IT HURTS STOP YOU PROMISED IT HURTS IT HURTS!

No it doesn't! he says, IT FEELS GRRREAT!


_________________________
Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#44862 - 12/11/10 11:07 PM Re: communification [Re: Aklo]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
member


Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
I'm not entirely sure as to why you posted my Ooze show, though, I supposed it is appropriate for the post.

If that is supposed to imply some sort of sore ass syndrome, I assure you, there is none to complain of. \:\)

Another curious question, where else do you know of me?


Edited by OrgasmicKarmatic (12/11/10 11:10 PM)
_________________________
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http://othermindx.blogspot.com

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#44866 - 12/12/10 01:06 AM Re: communification [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"Personally, I do not see a point in claiming sides."

Then shut up.
If you do not take a side then you are standing in the middle of the street and will be hit by a truck.

"The unproductive outcome of a debate or discuss only comes to pass when it becomes an argument and the points are lost in semantic details. Or, in other words, the go around becomes fisticuffs."

A debate or discussion on the internet will not ever come to a fist fight unless someone gets off their fat ass and goes over to someones house.

"Of course and within Satanism there is more than two sides as well. Of which this post is talking about the communication capabilities between all of them."

Most people here are not hippy tree hugging equality for all Satanists. "We" (in general) on this site, don't give shit about converting other people, or communicating with all the idiots that think they are Satanists. Most people who think they are Satanists are not Satanists. If you have to work so hard at convincing people of who and what you are, you are not and you failed.

"Another curious question, where else do you know of me?"

It's the internet, if you did something stupid, someone will find it and out it in your face.

I find it kinda offensive for you to be posting MCOS bullshit here. I and mean most people here don't go there and post copies of 600club threads there. Maybe you should read the forums more, look into our threads instead of spewing repeat garbage and complaints here.

Next.....


Morgan

Oh, and by the way in regards to helping newbies. I do help some on occasion. Hell the book I wrote is even on your recommend reading list at the MCOS. I guess you just don;t pay much attention anywhere.
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#44869 - 12/12/10 04:00 AM Re: communification [Re: Morgan]
thedeadidea Offline
member


Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 209
I by and large don't like theistic satanists but I put this down to there 11 yr old reading level and the ability of articulation equivalent of a retarded chipmunk. I cannot tell if the general consensus of the thread is a rejection of what people here define as theistic or spiritual Satanism.

But there are a few self described theistic satanists I am friends with. I might be new here but before you bite my head off I'll ask you to define theistic Satanism in a way so it doesn't include notions of collective unconsciousness/neo-platic consciousness and other such non empirically verified notions of shared consciousness and if you don't do that then try this shit on Aquino.

I would consider that organisation one of theistic satanist at least in the place where I draw the line and what I consider theism. But I wouldn't insult his intelligence or what he is manifested which is more then anyone present in this thread.

But perhaps I misunderstood and it is just the self designators spiritual/theistic as meaningless concepts attached to the word satanist or Satanism which you consider meaningless in and of themselves. If that is the case I'll leave you to the argument because I've got more genuine things to be personally invested in then self descriptors I don't believe hold any meaning.




Edited by thedeadidea (12/12/10 04:03 AM)

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#44874 - 12/12/10 04:39 AM Re: communification [Re: thedeadidea]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: thedeadidea

But there are a few self described theistic satanists I am friends with. I might be new here but before you bite my head off I'll ask you to define theistic Satanism in a way so it doesn't include notions of collective unconsciousness/neo-platic consciousness and other such non empirically verified notions of shared consciousness and if you don't do that then try this shit on Aquino.


A point of order here... don't assume. If you took the time to read the threads here, you'd find that NO ONE is beyond question in The 600 Club Forum, Dr. Aquino being no exception. He has indeed been challenged on the grounds of what are perceived to be theistic and/or spiritualistic ideologies by several people and, to his credit, he has responded. That doesn't mean that what he or anyone else has to say will be given any special treatment. We don't coddle here.

NO MEMBER is above question. Not me, not Dr. Aquino, nor any other regular member, Familiar or Moderator. People who come here and remain here are people who can think on their feet and speak about their beliefs without expecting others to just agree with them. Sheep belong in a herd... not the 600 Club.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#44875 - 12/12/10 05:31 AM Re: communification [Re: Jake999]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
Using the quick reply for a moment..

 Quote:
Personally, I do not see a point in claiming sides."

Me neither, but I'll do it anyway. Morgan has a point though, but keep in mind nothing is limited with a choice of left and right, you can also jump over the proverbial truck, down, double flick-flack, slide past it or simply run away from it. People will always try and label and categorize, just make sure you have certain traits to mess a bit with their minds.

A continiuous flow of the mind is very important.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#44877 - 12/12/10 12:44 PM Re: deus ex machina [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Aklo Offline
member


Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
 Quote:
Then I would only have to say that it seems to me that you might just very well pegged a spiritualists viewpoint (at least from what I have gathered from spiritualists that I have had discussions with previously on the same topic)


If you say so? But if so, there's a huge problem. You see, words have meaning. They don't just mean whatever we want, not without a lot of work at least.

The word spiritualist already means "idiot easily fooled by things like table-tapping; believer in ectoplasm and other pseudo-science; person who consistently uses the word 'energy' to mean something other than 'the capacity to do work'; ghost-worshipper; member of a category which Houdini, Crowley, Randi et al have long-since codified methods for exposing as crooks and / or deluded dupes".

What your set appear to be groping for, is a term midway between "Atheist" and "theist". You ran into this same problem with "deist", which is also already in use to mean specific things other than wishy-washy.

May I suggest "pantheist"? It is already doing the job for billions of people, if you use it this way, your meaning will be understood. Some people prefer "panentheist" on this score, but it's a very fine line.
_________________________
Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#44878 - 12/12/10 02:45 PM Re: deus ex machina [Re: Aklo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
...person who consistently uses the word 'energy' to mean something other than 'the capacity to do work'...


I'm glad I am not the only person who notices people's tendency to do this. I witness it all the time and it is annoying. Thank you.
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No gods. No masters.

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#44883 - 12/13/10 11:11 AM Re: deus ex machina [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Aklo Offline
member


Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Quote:
...person who consistently uses the word 'energy' to mean something other than 'the capacity to do work'...


I'm glad I am not the only person who notices people's tendency to do this. I witness it all the time and it is annoying. Thank you.


My pleasure \:\)

The problem seems to be rooted in the layman experience with electric current as "power". Simplifications of Einstein used to promote nuclear technology for genocide back in the 40's tend to exacerbate this. The non-physicist tends to think of electrons and photons as "energy", but they aren't; they are just a means, in the form of current and EM fields, of transferring a lot of energy. E=MC˛, contrary to popular belief, doesn't mean that matter "is" energy, or can be "turned into" energy, but rather that the total amount of energy being used to "prop up" a quantum field of matter can be be measured, and can be released for other purposes at the cost of no longer supporting the original field.

This gets to be a huge problem in the occult world, though, because we know that our nervous system and personal EM field are also made of electrons and photons. The electricity involved isn't current though, it's static, and it has very little actual energy! Barely enough to flicker a lightbulb, certainly not enough to do any effective magic tricks like levitation etc. What it does carry, though, in a fairly inefficient way, is information. Anyone wanting to do real science with things like "ghosts" and "auras" needs to understand this and work accordingly.

But the results thus far are unimpressive. I can read auras. When I first started doing this, I followed the traditional methods, crossing my eyes and looking for particular colors and so forth. But once I had enough practice to be totally familiar with the system, its advantages and disadvantages, then I found it necessary to phase in the key factor in divination.

And that means, it isn't really science. It's just psychology. Once we reach this conclusion for ourselves about particular methods, it's actually very liberating. If something is primarily in our heads, then it can be whatever we want it to be! Complex rigmarole like making a particular size circle, dancing around a podium-shaped altar assuming various god-forms and intoning exact "vibrations" of ancient rubrics, can be replaced with standing in front of a naked lady lying on a coffee table and blaspheming, which is actually more exciting. It's a win-win situation!

_________________________
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