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#45039 - 12/16/10 06:02 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: TheInsane]
Aklo Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
 Quote:
Now I havent read JK's book yet (just got it yesterday - gotta say the font size is annoying just flipping through it) but I have enjoyed quite a few of the you tube videos posted.


Yeah he's definitely more fun in mixed media than cold print. Kind of reminds me of OrganicKarate that way, only to a different degree.

Here's a video that nominally addresses this modern / postmodern question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvQX3PLXyDU

But don't doze off, it's actually mostly a rant against something around the corner that calls itself "Modern".
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Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#45041 - 12/16/10 07:09 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Jason King]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



To Jason,

Thanks for returning to discuss your work and welcome to the 600C. I do have a couple of questions in relation to your work. They are:

• Why on earth did you choose such a culturally and historically loaded word like Postmodern for your book title? Yes, I now know that you want to give the impression that your work somehow supersedes the “modern” Satanism of LaVey, but using that word Postmodern is like stepping into a goddamn mine field.
• How can Satan be revised or amended ontologically? Its meaning is constructed from the Judeo-Christian system, within which it functions and draws its historical and social meaning on the one hand, as you have mentioned; and on the other hand, is adopted by each as a symbol or signifier, according to the needs, of the individual. I am not sure how this sign can be torn apart and rebuilt with new universal elements without becoming purely mythical, considering the fact that the original sign and its context was mythical to begin with?

Anyway the book has caught my attention and I will read it when I get a chance.

I have to be honest with you though and say I am a big supporter of LaVey’s and I will actively work towards maintaining the definitions he has established in his works.

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#45043 - 12/16/10 07:28 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Sure I do think one can give criticism to certain ideas without the subject shitting their pants. It depends on how mature the author is, or how seriously he takes criticism. But, overall, I do think the strongest form of criticism is based upon arguments and not upon juvenile tactics. My experience tells me that most people criticize not because they think the other is wrong but because they can’t stand the thought that someone might not agree that they are right. To most people affirmation is a drug.

Answering the question about Lavey; personally I hardly care about him. If I had to define him I'd call it pop-psychology but what do I know?

D.

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#45054 - 12/17/10 03:09 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
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Hmm, that should have been pop-philosophy of course. Never drink and type.

D.

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#45067 - 12/17/10 02:17 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Diavolo]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2524
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Never drink and type.

It worked for Hunter.
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#45071 - 12/17/10 02:59 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: ]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
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 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
To Jason, Why on earth did you choose such a culturally and historically loaded word like Postmodern for your book title? Yes, I now know that you want to give the impression that your work somehow supersedes the “modern” Satanism of LaVey, but using that word Postmodern is like stepping into a goddamn mine field.

I react to the word "postmodernism" like Dracula to the cross. Comes from too many years in academia enduring bullshit terms like "methodology" and "paradigm".

And "modern" is already a problematic [there's another one!] word, because it can refer specifically to various, but not necessarily the same artistic periods. Or it can be vaguely generic, i.e. what isn't obsolete or old-fashioned. There is a pretty good discussion, including of the P-word, here.

The study of what makes a good/bad book [or film] title should be fun; someone probably has already done it. I have often said that the best thing about the Satanic Bible was its name. Anton could have filled it up with almost anything and that title would still blow Pleasantvillian fuses. Indeed it has continued to do so through several generations, despite its being written for a late-60s readience.

Two of the books on my shelves with gruntling titles are Sex and Society in Nazi Germany [How could you go wrong with this?] and my alltimefavorite title: Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds. I don't even have to read it to be turbed by it.

Ian Fleming was a great titler; J.R.R. Tolkien was not. No one is quite clear on exactly who "the" Lord of the Rings is, or which are "the" Two Towers, or who or what a "Silmarillion" is. At least Lamont Cranston knows ...

Indeed the P-word is so loathed that JK could probably supercharge sales by retitling his book Satanism: The Extermination of Postmodernism. Or he could indulge in shameless exotique: Postsatanism.

I really should at this point; this post has lost any pre/posttense to coherence.
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#45075 - 12/17/10 03:32 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: ]
Aklo Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
 Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1
Why on earth did you choose such a culturally and historically loaded word like Postmodern for your book title?

Dude. Watch the flick I dropped above. Consider seriously the possibility that by "postmodern" he means little more than "since I got sick of MCOS".

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
If I had to define him I'd call it pop-psychology but what do I know? ... that should have been pop-philosophy of course. Never drink and type.

What would, the difference be? I agree with you either way, in some sense. My feeling might be that, when we stick the word "pop" in front of something, it hardly matters what we follow it with. All we really mean is "kitsch". Which I suppose could place his work firmly in the postmodern camp? Or not...

But if you feel it isn't "pop psychology" after all, then: why not?

 Originally Posted By: Michael A. Aquino
I have often said that the best thing about the Satanic Bible was its name. Anton could have filled it up with almost anything and that title would still blow Pleasantvillian fuses. Indeed it has continued to do so through several generations, despite its being written for a late-60s readience.


Excellent point! Here's some brainiac with a thesis due, talking about the whole package:

 Originally Posted By: Joshua Gunn, "Modern Occult Rhetoric"
Unlike its content, the packaging and formal characteristics of The Satanic Bible are unique, and the book’s importance as an element of occult discourse has much more to do with its uniqueness as totem or a fetishized object in popular culture than with its 272 pages of directives. With LaVey’s remarks about the fantasy function of his bible in mind, one is drawn to the style of the book – which is written in an obvious tongue-in-cheek manner – and more significantly to its noteworthy cover. The front of the popular paperback edition features a minimalist design, the title and author in a simple white font on a completely black background. Underneath the text appears the ‘Sigil of Baphomet’ in purple, which is the representation of a goat head, contained by an inverted Pentagram or encircled star (see Figure 1). Each point of the Pentagram accommodates the goat’s horns, ears and chin. Around the Pentagram and goat are two circles in which appear the ubiquitous occult symbols – Hebrew characters – spelling ‘Leviathan’. The back of the paperback is equally striking. Over a black background appears a photograph of LaVey, his glaring eyes, bald head, and meticulously groomed goatee encircled by a large Sigil of Baphomet, such that he appears horned.

In most contemporary depictions of Satanism in books and television programs, the cover of The Satanic Bible is often presented as a visual surrogate for the practice of Satanism, and sometimes for the whole of occultism. This focus on the cover marks a formal mystification that models the logic of commodity exchange in late capitalism: the focus on the book’s cover is an erasure of its content, an eclipse of the book’s use-value by its sign- and transaction-value. A typical example of this kind of commodity occultism is found in a video program, popular among charismatic and evangelic Christian groups, titled Devil Worship: The Rise of Satanism (1989) In the opening segments of the video, LaVey and the Church of Satan are introduced through a series of shots in which The Satanic Bible frequently appears. A woman with a British accent narrates the imagery over a characteristically ‘creepy,’ synthesized soundtrack (see Table 1). The final comment in these series of shots illustrates how The Satanic Bible is rendered into a visual fetish, its contents ignored and deliberately mystified in order to promote a Christian message of redemption: Although it is the case that The Satanic Bible attacks the notion of purity as an impossible ideal, it is not the case that the book categorically opposes ‘goodness’ and ‘selfless behavior’, nor is it the case that the book forwards a belief in the supernatural. In the video presentation, the focus is on the formal aspects of the book at the expense of its actual content.

It's all about the marketing, in the end, isn't it?

 Quote:
Indeed the P-word is so loathed that JK could probably supercharge sales by retitling his book Satanism: The Extermination of Postmodernism. Or he could indulge in shameless exotique: Postsatanism.

I'd like to suggest leaving us out of it altogether, and going with I Was a Teen-Aged Postmodernist. Or perhaps, I Took Modernism's Lunch Money and Kicked Its Ass Anyway.

_________________________
Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#45077 - 12/17/10 03:43 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Diavolo Offline
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Na, I think pop-philosophy is closer to how I see it. It has some resemblance with pop-art which, not surprisingly, also did have its high-times during that period.

Pop-art was reactionary and did bring art back to the people; dumbing it down to their level and embracing the mundane and kitsch.

In a way one can see many similarities between what artists did during these days and how Satanism presented itself.

D.

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#45080 - 12/17/10 04:31 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Diavolo]
Aklo Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
Hmmm, opinions anyone. Is kitsch Modern or Postmodern? Is Andy Warhol kitsch or, something else? My brain needs serious improvement here.
_________________________
Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#45081 - 12/17/10 04:48 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Diavolo]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
To me, The Satanic Bible is/was a door. To understand it is to seek to apply it... religiously. :0)

It's non systemic in approach (ie, it doesn't make up a bunch of stuff to fill in the gaps of what it doesn't know) and is a good (ok, great) foundational hand book. Revisiting it often while applying basic principles is to reveal the wisdom contained within.

Not arguing with you though, D. Just my opinion.

I'm resistant to anything that tries to paint me into a box philosophically. Most of the big questions will simply remain unanswered. A lot of people will claim that they know how it all works, they'll make up names for it all and they'll package it in a way that makes sense to them.

Personally, I'm the consummate adventurer. I like going down the rat holes but I haven't been down one yet that I couldn't find my way out of. TSB is just general enough and intriguing enough that I return to it and re-read it after every adventure.

Anyone who is inclined to cast it off as old news is likely not going to agree with me about its overall importance. That's okay though, I'm on this journey for ME, not to prove anything to anyone else and not to become the next voice in Satanism. I am where the rubber hits the road.

That turned into a semi rant about folks disregarding The Satanic Bible. Ah well, this thread is semi potpourri anyway.

To get back to the thread, I'd ask King about how, specifically, Satanism has evolved and how it should evolve? I suspect I know the answer but I'll ever be a proponent of core principles and direct, real world application of them.
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#45082 - 12/17/10 04:49 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Diavolo Offline
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I wouldn't consider Warhol kitsch. He might have elevated kitsch into an art form but it is art nevertheless. Is it postmodern? Some say it is the start of postmodernist art, some say it isn't.

It depends on whom you ask I suppose.

D.

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#45083 - 12/17/10 04:54 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Fnord]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I'm not saying TSB is worthless, it was what was required in that day and to many it might still be valuable.

I look at Satanism like playing on a pinball machine. TSB might, for some, be the coin which they need to start playing, but the most important part is not what got you playing, but that you keep on playing. Always trying to get that higher score.

D.

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#45084 - 12/17/10 04:55 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Fnord Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 2085
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: Aklo
Hmmm, opinions anyone. Is kitsch Modern or Postmodern? Is Andy Warhol kitsch or, something else? My brain needs serious improvement here.


Andy Warhol was a brilliant designer in my opinion. He had an excellent eye for positive and negative space as well as an excellent eye for evoking emotion through color choice.

That said, I wouldn't call his work kitsch but I don't like much of it either.

By the way, I'd call kitsch post modern as most folks who lived in the modern era (Upton Sinclair and the like) were struggling for survival which made tiki inspired salt and pepper shakers rather an indulgence.

Don't anyone freak out on me though. I haven't read the laundry list of required books prerequisite to having an opinion on the matter... but I do study art and literature (where the action is).
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#45090 - 12/17/10 06:17 PM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Fnord]
Aklo Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
Thanks!

 Quote:
I haven't read the laundry list of required books prerequisite to having an opinion on the matter

Yeah, me neither. Don't sweat it, we learn as we go. I'm often stupid about things I haven't studied properly, but I don't usually stay that way.

From what I can tell so far, kitsch seems to bridge the two movements. It begins as a bourgeouis phenomenon, where the prole who has moved up in the world is sold cheap mass-produced imitations of the trappings of real wealth to help them signify their success to one another. High art sniffs at this sort of stuff, of course, but as particular bits of it become outdated some of them pick up a cult fandom in various subcultures. So at this point we are definitely talking about Modernism.

But as Postmodernism comes around, the trappings of kitsch are subverted and incorporated into new forms, becoming what seems to be properly called "camp". There's a whole side topic here, in that the camp motif apparently originally developed as an array of signals intended to seem innocent and even highbrow to the average observer, but actually used as a sexual signaling system for closeted homosexuals. This includes not only the retro boozhwa crap but also dress styles, tones of voice, and other affectations.

_________________________
Behold, I send you forth as wolves among sheep; eat Lambchop for supper and fuck Bo Peep!

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#45123 - 12/18/10 10:57 AM Re: Postmodern Hand-Jive, part deux [Re: Aklo]
Jason King Offline
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Registered: 10/24/10
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Wow. Such an intellectual forum we have here. Couldn't even get past the title. "It brings up bad memories of my childhood," and such. "Oh noes, dee big phont hurtes me I's". Never even considered some of that was the damned point to begin with. And to the fucktard who said this was in any way related to MCoS (I'm guessing the clueless Altoid), you can cross check pub-dates with reg-dates if you're not too busy with that donkey's cock in your mouth.

JK
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