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#45112 - 12/18/10 03:17 AM Satanic Karma?
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
I feel this is more and more appropriate every time I read it. I would like your input on this. I wrote this for myself while sorting out my views on karma. The largest question posted in response to this was: Is there a difference between Karma and Cause and Effect? Are they one and the same?


I have gone back and forth with people about karma. Coming from a background where I practiced the Wiccan path for 13 years, the ideal of karma is not lost on me. However, applying a Satanic idea to it was not as hard as most Pagans may believe. A lot believe that it is just the "balance" of life. You "push", you get "pushed". To me this is not a very Satanic idea. (IMO)

In my mind, if you are suffering from karma you are only doing so because you believe that it will happen or just believe that you deserve it to happen. Which would go hand in hand with the idea that say you decide to perform the destruction ritual (which I do at least once a month) but you go into it with the conciousness that after you do this you are going to suffer that backlash of karma. You will get yours. Only because when you send out such energy with the ideal that you are going to get it back it gets sent out almost like it is a wish. Like you said, I want this person to suffer as I have AND I know that I am doing this at concequence of myself.

Now, for me.. when I send out the same ritual, I send it out in peace. This is something I am doing for MY greater good. I am doing this because it is needed for me to get out so that I am productive and happy. Not guilty and angry. So instead of sending out what you just sent out in mindful of the ever three fold law, I am sending "I hope you suffer as much as I have because I know that in return I will feel better than ever letting go of the anguish you have caused me".

This also explains certain people out in the world that do horrible things and yet seem to have to world in the palms of their hands. They do not think that what they are doing is wrong or if they do, they do not care enough for karma to touch them. Why do you think there are so many killers out there? There violent, disgusting people out there that don't seem to be touched by "karmatic justice". My uncle is one of them. He is rich, successful and has a beautiful family but he is a horrible person. People love to hate this man. He has them all in his pocket. He suffers no karma for his wrong doings simply because the energy that HE sends out says "Im successful and I know it, I will get nothing but great things because that is what I deserve".

Try keeping that in mind .. every time you "push" you will only be pushed back if you will it to happen. Magic is about will. Every magician knows this. Make sure your will is working for you completely, not half with you and half against you.
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#45114 - 12/18/10 04:08 AM Re: Satanic Karma? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Morgan Offline
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"Is there a difference between Karma and Cause and Effect? Are they one and the same?"

There is no such thing as karma. There is no such thing as a three-fold law.
You make your own choices, your own destiny (for lack of a better word at 3:30 in the am).

There is no giant cosmic wheel that turns and punishes the wicked. It rains on the just and unjust alike.

As to cause and effect...
When you come to make a decision, you should be able to see where each choice will lead to.

"Try keeping that in mind .. every time you "push" you will only be pushed back if you will it to happen. Magic is about will. Every magician knows this. Make sure your will is working for you completely, not half with you and half against you."

Kinda, yes and no.
Yes, magic is about force of will, intent of action, and sometimes psychodrama.

Some people need the comfort and safety that the idea of karma and the 3 fold law gives them. Just like how some people need the idea that "god" is watching over them. Some people view prays as a type of magic, equally useless.

As a Satanist it is the internal Force of Will to succeed that counts most, and how you use it.

Morgan
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#45115 - 12/18/10 09:05 AM Re: Satanic Karma? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Karma implies there is some sort of balance which, when disturbed, will perform an equally opposing reaction. It would imply that the natural state of all things would always return to some sort of equilibrium. Life would be, on a larger scale, harmonious. I disagree with that. All life is in a continuous state of conflict. Weakness will always be exploited by strength and instead of a payback, the strong only gain advantages from this exploitation. Strength rewards itself, weakness punishes itself. As such, the exploiters, and the exploited, only gain what they deserve.

The idea of karma is similar to that of guilt. It is a religious attempt to control the strong. Hollywood reinforces these ideas with all those movies about the good guy winning, or, at a social level, the public mantras about how "honesty lasts longest" or "crime doesn't pay". It all is some form of karma; if you do evil, you'll get punished; somewhen, somehow.

Not terribly satanic if you ask me.

D.

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#45116 - 12/18/10 09:23 AM Re: Satanic Karma? [Re: Diavolo]
Dutch Satanist Offline
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Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 69
Loc: Delft, The Netherlands
Oh, karma. The much favored hobby horse of the RHP-type religions. Every RHP religion has something to the same effect. And it sounds plausible, which makes it so alluring. Doesn't make it correct though.

I'm on the side of most people here in thinking it is bullshit. Sure, there is action and reaction. If you kill someone in broad daylight in public, you can expect to be hunted down by law-enforcement. And there is also the small change you might even get away with it. Hoe does the almighty karma explain that?

It is prudent to think about repercussions to one's actions. But in my opinion it doesn't go much further than that.

Yes, it is guilt. Just like the Wiccan rule of three. It's mental programming to discourage "evil" intent.

When someone talks about karma, I usually just dismiss it. Because it is not grounded in reality. Karma shmarma. I have more useful things to care about.
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#45117 - 12/18/10 09:45 AM Re: Satanic Karma? [Re: Dutch Satanist]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
But what this shows is the attempt of those who have been fatally tainted by the idea of Karma, The Rule of Three, etc., to meld them into the fabric of Satanism in order to make it a concept that gives them comfort and/or the same lame mitigations of one's own actions that we see in RHP religions from Christianity to Buddhism to Wicca. And IN melding these foreign fibers into that fabric of Satanism, instead of creating a hybrid school of thought, they create something far weaker than the original fabric.

It's a watered down version of a good cup of coffee, to use another analogy.

Unless we devoid ourselves of these types of influences, and insist on maintaining the strengths of Satanism's philosophy of "death to the weakling; wealth to the strong," we will NEVER be recognized as anything but a fringe group of X,Y or Z.
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#45118 - 12/18/10 10:05 AM Re: Satanic Karma? [Re: Jake999]
Dutch Satanist Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 69
Loc: Delft, The Netherlands
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
But what this shows is the attempt of those who have been fatally tainted by the idea of Karma, The Rule of Three, etc., to meld them into the fabric of Satanism in order to make it a concept that gives them comfort and/or the same lame mitigations of one's own actions that we see in RHP religions from Christianity to Buddhism to Wicca. And IN melding these foreign fibers into that fabric of Satanism, instead of creating a hybrid school of thought, they create something far weaker than the original fabric.


I would have to agree with this. I myself have been fortunate not being brought up with any religion at all. I was never indoctrinated with concepts like karma, and only encountered it post-crystallization, to coin a LaVeyan term. And I was as unimpressed with concepts like karma then as I am now.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999

It's a watered down version of a good cup of coffee, to use another analogy.

Unless we devoid ourselves of these types of influences, and insist on maintaining the strengths of Satanism's philosophy of "death to the weakling; wealth to the strong," we will NEVER be recognized as anything but a fringe group of X,Y or Z.


Well, we just need to deconstruct them and see them for what they are, so they lose their power and allure if they are based on bullshit.
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#45125 - 12/18/10 11:33 AM Re: Satanic Karma? [Re: Jake999]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Karma is indeed a comforting principle to many. It's this invisible mechanic which will punish the evil for their acts. A bit like the hand of god.

It is essentially a part of the slave morality; the weak blaming the strong for their exploitation and invoking some higher power to do what is right. They invoke this power because they themselves are not capable. What they ignore is that the very exploitation is only happening because they allow it to happen.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (12/18/10 11:33 AM)

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#45132 - 12/18/10 12:06 PM Re: Satanic Karma? [Re: Diavolo]
Opacus Offline
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Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 23
Loc: Hell
Karma is another one of those concepts that, yet again, the new age folks got ahold of and mis-interpreted either on purpose or accidentally.

The eastern religions themselves don't even agree on what it is and it didn't even show up until later in those same religion's lifetimes.

In the current days it seems to be another example of what Dr. LaVey said was playing the devil's game without taking the devil's name.

O.

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#45136 - 12/18/10 01:20 PM Re: Satanic Karma? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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General Response: My opinion on “Satanic Karma” and “stuff.”

A person who attempts to bring dogma from their past beliefs into Satanism have a long road to travel. The idea of Karma, faith, Fairies, Super natural beings, do not have a spot in the puzzle board that is Satanism. The pieces cannot be forced in there.

As pointed out in other threads a person is entitled to their opinion. They also have the privilege to believe in anything and everything that helps in making their view of the world comfortable for them.
However, if they declare themselves as Satanists and attempt to add ideas that do not fit within the basic foundation of Satanism their attempts can be successfully challenged as faulty.

People are free to try to bring new ideas and opinions into Satanism and attempt to convince Satanists that there are more contemporary aspects that will benefit the practitioner. However, I offer for consideration that if a new idea is indeed as valid as the person coming up with it claims, then mature Satanists will whole heartedly embrace it as well with very little argument against it by most.

Many with new ideas seem to think that their views are questioned by those of us who continue to hold the tenentes of The Satanic Bible to be a strong anchor for our Satanic philosophy, as hostile towards their view because we are afraid of losing something that we have embraced and cling to blindly no matter what. If that indeed was the case, then not only would we not be Satanists, but we would be no better then anyone who follows any belief system simply because it makes them feel good, even if it means they live in a fantasy world.

It is my opinion that the reason most new ideas are rejected by Satanists is not because they fear change and cannot let go of the old, but because the original foundation works completely, and thus far nothing new has had the same positive impact as the original. Once a new idea is found to be better then the original Satanists will have no problem at all adopting it if they believe it will serve them well.
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#45146 - 12/18/10 02:52 PM Re: Satanic Karma? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
As has already been mentioned, the idea of karma presupposed that there is some "force out there" that not only has conceptions of right vs. wrong but is also concerned with writing the wrongs. How does this force determine what is "right" and what is "wrong"; what is the standard, the measure?

I too believe that belief in karma is the result of guilt. The fact of the matter is that sometimes bad things happen. If your car gets stolen when you are 30 it is probably because you parked it in a bad neighborhood, or left your keys in it or because you were just the unlucky victim of a crime of opportunity. It probably wouldn't be because you stole some kids bike when you were 10. Unless the person knew you did it and was just biding their time until the perfect opportunity for revenge presented itself.

If you fuck people over you run the risk of facing some sort of recourse for you actions. Sometimes life just sucks and "shit happens". None of thus is "karma" it's just life.
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#45171 - 12/18/10 04:01 PM Re: Satanic Karma? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
Yes, this thread was written because I believe that karma is more of the idea of guilt coming back to haunt you. I believe that those who have no need to classify the effects after their actions as karma are usually ones that do not really worry about guilt.

I think those that tend to think that people who are free from guilt simply do not have a conscience but I believe quite another form is true. I feel as though that (even though sociopaths do exist) those who lack any real guilt in their lives are like this due to acting in any way that would cause remorse or guilt. If you act in the way that you see as right, then what does it matter who views it right or wrong?

Thus the reason I placed my uncle in this thread. He is a horrible person to a lot of the people that surround him. He puts out the image though, that he does no wrong and he receives no wrong. He holds no remorse or guilt for what he does and therefore, it does not hold him back from being the successful (though sick) individual that he is.
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#45173 - 12/18/10 04:05 PM The Wheel of Horrors [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Aklo Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 158
Karma is a metaphysical conception of the laws of cause and affect and how they relate to our lives. As such, it's only an analogy, but if you pay attention it's possible to learn something from it.

Here's something from the Cosmic Trigger, proceed with caution:

 Originally Posted By: Robert Anton Wilson
Then, returning from school one afternoon, Luna was beaten and robbed by a gang of black kids. She was weeping and badly frightened when she arrived home, and her Father was shaken by the unfairness of it happening to her, such a gentle, ethereal child. In the midst of consoling her, the Father wandered emotionally and began denouncing the idea of Karma. Luna was beaten, he said, not for her sins, but for the sins of several centuries of slavers and racists, most of whom had never themselves suffered for those sins. "Karma is a blind machine," he said. "The effects of evil go on and on but they don't necessarily come back on those who start the evil." Then Father got back on the track and said some more relevant and consoling things.

The next day Luna was her usual sunny and cheerful self, just like the Light in her paintings. "I'm glad you're feeling better," the Father said finally.

"I stopped the wheel of Karma," she said. "All the bad energy is with the kids who beat me up. I'm not holding any of it."

And she wasn't. The bad energy had entirely passed by, and there was no anger or fear in her. I never saw her show any hostility to blacks after the beating, any more than before.

The Father fell in love with her all over again. And he understood what the metaphor of the wheel of Karma really symbolizes and what it means to stop the wheel.


As super-intelligent black magicians, our method of "stopping the wheel" is to express our pain and anger and fear in a ritual setting, turning it into a psychological package we can pass transparently back to the target when we met again; and then moving on. It's all very simple, for the person who is willing to get some practice doing it rather than just talking about it endlessly.

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#45174 - 12/18/10 04:13 PM Re: The Wheel of Horrors [Re: Aklo]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
I enjoyed that story. It is the perfect example of someone who got rid of all negative energy without the idea of what might happen if she returned that energy from whence it came. It illustrates the true ability of letting go of things and not holding on to them and not bringing the idea of "karma" at all.
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#45176 - 12/18/10 04:30 PM Re: The Wheel of Horrors [Re: Aklo]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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 Quote:
As super-intelligent black magicians, our method of "stopping the wheel" is to express our pain and anger and fear in a ritual setting, turning it into a psychological package we can pass transparently back to the target when we met again; and then moving on. It's all very simple, for the person who is willing to get some practice doing it rather than just talking about it endlessly.


I'm not that enlightened myself. I would rather hold on to "bad karma," and find those bastards one by one and beat them an inch of their lives if it happened to me.

After that I would let it go and be my sunny happy self again ;\)
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#45177 - 12/18/10 04:30 PM Re: The Wheel of Horrors [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
[/quote=Morgan] Some people need the comfort and safety that the idea of karma and the 3 fold law gives them. Just like how some people need the idea that "god" is watching over them. Some people view prays as a type of magic, equally useless. [quote]

This..

http://www.the600club.com/dir/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=45175#Post45175
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