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#45175 - 12/18/10 04:29 PM Prayer - Form of greater magic?
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
Recently, I was sitting outside of my place of employment speaking about some difficulties that I was having at work between my boss and I. He seemed to be having a hard time with things at home and brought it to work with him.. often making most of his employees crazy with his anal demands. This is, after working for him for three years, something that I have seen many times from him and is usually a storm that passes. Even if the storm is harsh and brings you to the edge of quitting at times.

As we were discussing what was going on throughout our weeks. There were two young women that approached us that seemed to be full of joy and poked their way into our conversation. They said that god had spoken to them and that they felt a deep seated need to come over and pray for us. At first, I was very reserved with them because I know how some of these people are. Especially around the city of GR. However, I entertained the idea and listened to what they had to say. They asked me if there was anything that I would like them to pray for me about in specific.

I racked my brain for something and realized that my professional life was hell due to the situation with my boss. I, instead, asked them to pray for my boss. They stood in the middle of the side walk and prayed to their god for improvements in my work life between my boss and I. Within a few days, things did certainly improve in many ways.

On the walk back to my friend's car, he laughed at their measly attempt to "pray for a Satanist" that doesn't believe in their god. I attempted to explain to them why I allow things like that to happen.

Magic = willpower. I truly believe that these women believed that their god would correct all conflicts between my boss and I. While I do not agree in the using of external deities, I do see that their will and belief that "god" would take care of what they prayed for as an employment of greater magic. They included me as the target, received information on which to work with and then used both in order to send out their will via visible ritual of prayer.

Open courts.
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#45193 - 12/18/10 05:48 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Morgan Offline
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Prayer, belief that a big guy in the sky is going to solve and fix your problems.

Magic, (through ritual) belief that through the use of a psychodrama that YOU can change your environment to conform with your will.

It seems that you believe that their prayer to a non-existant guy in the sky affected change in your life.

Have you examined your behavior and interactions with your boss following your interactions with the two women.

Sometimes people only see what they want to see.

Morgan
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#45194 - 12/18/10 05:57 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
HeimiricIX Offline
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Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 75
Loc: Mexico City.
Prayer is not Magic in the same way wishful thinking and daydreaming is not Magic. No true will toward a solution is involved, just the hope that through asking to x-god things will get better.

I recommend reading the recently made available Black Magic by Dr. Aquino. .

Best.
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#45195 - 12/18/10 06:04 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Morgan]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Prayer, belief that a big guy in the sky is going to solve and fix your problems.

Magic, (through ritual) belief that through the use of a psychodrama that YOU can change your environment to conform with your will.

It seems that you believe that their prayer to a non-existant guy in the sky affected change in your life.

Have you examined your behavior and interactions with your boss following your interactions with the two women.

Sometimes people only see what they want to see.

Morgan


Yes, in their opinion, their prayer was sent out to a non-existent deity to effect a change in my life.

In my opinion, their will power to try and make a change in my life, positive, was a ritual in it's own right. I do not believe that their good will towards me was bounced from a god satellite and effected my life in a positive manner.

I always believe that xtains like this withhold more magic than what they believe. They believe so whole heartedly that what they are sending out WILL work, that most of the time, it does. I am not saying it because god actually exists but because their will power exists. I am also of the belief that they perform more rituals than most Satanists or others that practice what they call magic. For example, in the catholic church, before you enter and before you leave you anoint yourself with holy water. Or another example, prayer.
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#45209 - 12/19/10 03:44 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: HeimiricIX]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Originally Posted By: HeimiricIX
Prayer is not Magic in the same way wishful thinking and daydreaming is not Magic. No true will toward a solution is involved, just the hope that through asking to x-god things will get better.

I recommend reading the recently made available Black Magic by Dr. Aquino. .

Best.

And because Aquino says it is as such you automatically confirm without even doing any thinking of your own?

I disagree, prayer can be a form of magic on the sole condition that the prayer is to be seen as a mental decompression, a means to relieve and an attempt to create order within the mind. It, on the other hand, should not be used as an attempt to make changes within ones situation/life since it tends to fail to achieve that purpose.

The ritual chamber serves the very same purpose as prayer. Just a means to "recalibrate" the mind, not to affect changes.


Edited by Dimitri (12/19/10 03:46 AM)
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#45210 - 12/19/10 04:19 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Harvey Offline
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Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 39
I may offer daily "devotions" to, say, Megan Fox, until my hand is calloused and my mind dulled... All the will I can muster is not going to achieve a damned thing unless I step away from the tissue box and do something about it. The 'Balance Factor' is also at play here.

What you are talking about might otherwise be termed coincidence. \:\)

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#45212 - 12/19/10 06:28 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Harvey]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 256
Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: Harvey
I may offer daily "devotions" to, say, Megan Fox, until my hand is calloused and my mind dulled... All the will I can muster is not going to achieve a damned thing unless I step away from the tissue box and do something about it. The 'Balance Factor' is also at play here.

What you are talking about might otherwise be termed coincidence. \:\)


That is true as well for many things. Such as karma, curses, grounding or anything else that may or may not be considered psychodrama.

@Dimitri - Are you speaking of a sort of grounding ritual?


Edited by OrgasmicKarmatic (12/19/10 06:29 AM)
Edit Reason: adding response.
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#45214 - 12/19/10 06:36 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
@Dimitri - Are you speaking of a sort of grounding ritual?

Que?
Merely saying that prayer should be seen as a tool not as a means.

Edit: upon rereading that sentence I might rephrase it a bit.
With saying "being seen as a tool" I am pointing towards the fact that it can be used as a tool for entertainment purposes, not real world changes.



Edited by Dimitri (12/19/10 07:27 AM)
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#45215 - 12/19/10 07:18 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think this is an example of glamorizing the average. Your boss is someone that can be a pain in the ass but, as you mentioned, it is only temporary. Now some women pray for him, he improves and suddenly you create a link between the praying and his change, even when he displayed the same change in the past without anyone praying. You create a link where there is none.

A couple of weeks ago a guy I know meets an older guy on the street. He says hi to him and the other grabs his chest and drops dead. If we glamorize the average, we could maybe create a link between him uttering the word "hi", or staring in a particular manner, and the old dude dropping dead. But the simplest explanation is maybe that the old dude had heart problems.

Is praying magick? No, praying is praying. It is desiring to win the lottery without buying a ticket.

D.

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#45235 - 12/19/10 01:27 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: OrgasmicKarmatic

In my opinion, their will power to try and make a change in my life, positive, was a ritual in it's own right. I do not believe that their good will towards me was bounced from a god satellite and effected my life in a positive manner.


I'd agree that it qualifies as ritual in the broadest sense of the word. I'm a bit skeptical that they devoted any significant willpower to the outcome. I have no doubt that they had some amount of goodwill towards you, but that's not the same thing.

 Originally Posted By: OrgasmicKarmatic

I always believe that xtains like this withhold more magic than what they believe. They believe so whole heartedly that what they are sending out WILL work, that most of the time, it does. I am not saying it because god actually exists but because their will power exists. I am also of the belief that they perform more rituals than most Satanists or others that practice what they call magic. For example, in the catholic church, before you enter and before you leave you anoint yourself with holy water. Or another example, prayer.


I will partially agree with this, in that there are no doubt some who sincerely exert their will towards their object of prayer.

But for the most part, most people in this category (based purely on my observation and no concrete evidence at all) are not exerting willpower - they are abdicating responsibility and their own will, half-heartedly imploring some FSM to do something, or simply mechanically following a habit (eg your anointy example) with no conscious intent.

One could argue that this could be sort-of effective as "minor GBM", and I might go along with a few cases; but in general I'm thinking the explicit abdication and the implicit bias against direct action render most of it just plain

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
... desiring to win the lottery without buying a ticket.


with a little self-assuaging of guilt thrown in, since you "did something."

As with all magic, one needs to carefully account for coincidence. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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#45238 - 12/19/10 01:33 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Autodidact]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3893
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I think prayer can qualify as ritual if it is YOU that are doing the praying. If you convince yourself that something might come of this prayer, you have already affected the same sort of internal change that is the goal of ritual, which can in turn alter your behaviour on a subconscious level to facilitate your desires.

However, if someone is praying for you, unless you believe that prayer is going to work it is just words.
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#45260 - 12/19/10 04:31 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Still, I do think getting on your knees and praying to some god or force for help isn't really a prime example of Satanism in action. I would call it ritual humiliation.

D.

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#45262 - 12/19/10 04:37 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3893
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Agreed, there is nothing 'Satanic' about psychologically giving yourself over to 'something else', least of all from a position of subservience, just saying insofar as ritual itself is concerned(Satanism aside);ie effecting change in the self through catharsis, prayer is certainly a subset.
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#45264 - 12/19/10 04:55 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
JWG Offline
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Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 68
I'd personally classify prayer as "white magic." You're using Will and Desire, but you're filtering it through a seeming "external" source that is outside of yourself, in this case, "God."

Certainly not Satanism and certainly not the Black Magic approach.
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#45266 - 12/19/10 05:43 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: JWG]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3893
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I think it's all functionally the same 'stuff'. Whether you choose to call it black, white, blue or yellow, you are still influencing your own subconscious through crystallization of will and belief.

The rest is merely aesthetics.
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