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#45274 - 12/19/10 08:50 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Autodidact Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
I think it's all functionally the same 'stuff'. Whether you choose to call it black, white, blue or yellow, you are still influencing your own subconscious through crystallization of will and belief.

The rest is merely aesthetics.


Hm, interesting ... let's explore a bit.

Would you agree, then, that "prayer works"?

Does it come down to how fervently one wishes for an outcome, regardless of "belief system" - in other words, are you equating "hope" and "desire"?
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#45275 - 12/19/10 09:28 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Autodidact]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact


Would you agree, then, that "prayer works"?

Sure, but only insofar as one can influence ones own subconscious through believing it will work.

 Quote:

are you equating "hope" and "desire"?

Not at all.

However I would think if one hoped enough for something to take the time to pray for it, there would be a desire for a certain outcome at play.
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#45279 - 12/19/10 11:42 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
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Loc: New York City
You can pray, hope, desire, jerk-off, or do a rite.

BUT unless you do something to affect the said such desire, nothing is going to change.

Prayer is usually asking "god" to do it for you. Then you sit back and wait.

When a Satanist does a rite (in general), they do it knowing that it still all comes down to themselves doing something after the rite to affect the change they want.

Morgan
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#45282 - 12/20/10 01:27 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Morgan]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well of course. Just saying if you really believe something will happen, you will generally act in such a manner to make it happen.
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#45319 - 12/20/10 04:29 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dimitri]
HeimiricIX Offline
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Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 75
Loc: Mexico City.
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

And because Aquino says it is as such you automatically confirm without even doing any thinking of your own?


Not at all mate, no need to assume anything, if you have questions, ask.

Let me explain why pray is not Magic, just for you.

Magic is to create a change based on your Will.

If you suddenly quit smooking just because you wanted to do so. That is Magic.

If you finally got a job after years of not even looking for because you finally decided you needed and wanted one. That is Magic.

If you sign up to a gym and go every day is needed to get your sorry ass in shape and to improve your health. That is Magic.

Prayer is not Magic.

Prayer is like paying the gym and not going or just going once every two weeks and still wait for changes.

Is like saying you want to quit smooking and then telling yourself one more is good to calm up your nerves at a difficult situation.

Prayer is just asking for something and Hope for it to happen, without even taking the time to try to influence that something for it to happen.

Best.
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#46067 - 01/07/11 01:20 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Eric Y Offline
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Registered: 12/06/10
Posts: 1
Loc: Middle Tennessee
In my personal experience I believe in 'prayer' for personal inner change to be possible. For example, I am a recovering alcoholic and praying for the strength to make it through the day without a drink was paramount to my initial sobriety. Not because some sky fairy gave me more power, but because I did a few things during that time that affected me and my thoughts, both conscious and subconscious. I spoke the words of what I wanted, I took some type of action (dogma), and I heard the words of my goal. I think these helped me to keep focus on my goal, which was and is to not drink. I was never 'praying' to a god or deity, just some simple self indulged therapy, so to speak.
Now, when it comes to praying for another person, or for anything ouside of our own self conscious, or asking some deity to do some physical deed I find prayer to be as mythical as Jack and the Beanstalk.
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#46178 - 01/07/11 08:40 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Eric Y]
Trapdoor Spider Offline
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Registered: 01/05/11
Posts: 34
If I remember correctly, Bill Maher said that prayer helped him through his tough times before he went the way of the thinking man.
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#46197 - 01/08/11 03:35 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Eric Y]
Clicks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 114
Loc: New Orleans
As far as I see it, prayer would be an exercise in productive psychodrama if it weren't for the fact that the practitioners are expecting for their Dad to help them out with their requests afterward in most cases. When they ask for the strength, drive, diligence to do something, they can fool themselves into thinking that they are actually receiving it from their god, and go on about their lives as if they actually posses their new trait, and it could work out all the better for them. They act like how they asked to be, therefore, it worked, albeit in a different manner than they think. I would call that LBM. If they told a person that they were going to pray for them to be able to accomplish something, and then that person who was prayed for starting acting like they were able to after the fact under the delusion that their god gave them the ability, I would call that GBM.
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#46243 - 01/08/11 04:14 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Clicks]
Mindmaster Offline
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Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Detroit, MI
Hmm.. yep.. now the "pray"-er comes out of the woodwork..

Please understand that I really don't think requests like:

Lord Satan, I need a million dollars!

Really count as a prayer... and this is what most people do..

Prayer for the Spiritual Satanists for many fun purposes:

1) Simply gratitude.

We don't think Satan or the demons are giving us everything, but we're happy if they've helped. We're also happy about our own assistance as well. (self-worship rites are done as well.) We view ourselves as one God among many, so therefore OURSELVES are venerated nearly as fully. \:\)

2) Devotion/Attunement.

I find myself doing these just to get the Christianized negativity out of my mind. It's sort of like a mediation with more purpose. Generally, it's just to get yourself balanced back on the left hand path when a lot of bullshit has been coming your way.

3) Invocation = Asking (to us)

Theistic types do not do "evocative magic" as it is basically jabbing a spirit with a poker until it does what you say. Nearly all of our rituals involve appeals or prayers because we'd rather build friendships than become slave-masters. Both methods work, and infact I have done both the traditional ceremonial magic methods as well. I don't mind "Asking" so to speak, as I will never ask for anything that I will not put my full effort to anyway. This method works more naturally for me... different strokes I guess. I use the dictionary definition of Invocation not the ceremonial magician definition. I would call their type of invocation "channeling". \:\)

On validity of prayer as magic:

Prayer = Magic because both are forces of the will at least if you believe in magic or MAGICK or whatever. The difference is only in the ability of the usual well-wishers ability to focus. Formality of rites and rituals is merely symbolic the machinery has always been intent+focus = result. Am I silly enough to think that the actual mechanics of my rituals are important? I know full well they're not; they are completely aesthetic but, they do make me feel all warm and cozy with the dark-side and it does assist me in making the connections I need. It does serve NO other purpose though.

The fabric of the universe is so interwoven that you really cannot tell where your influence and that outside influences would end. Much of the time properly done magic just seems like you're having a hell of a good run of luck. How do I know that? Not by arguing with you about in on the silly forums.. but rather collecting my own information. I don't think for a minute that if I am not sending applications out when I am doing magic to obtain a new job that I will get one. You after all have to commit fully to your cause or that would make your intent pretty suspect wouldn't it? Even if the only magic you managed to work was on your own conscious and subconscious mind.


Here's a better question: Does it matter if you get something from Satan, a demon, or yourself? What if it were all those efforts combined? As long as you still get it everything is good right?


Edited by Mindmaster (01/08/11 04:22 PM)

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#47368 - 01/25/11 04:23 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
The chaos magic universal formula for magic: belief + desire + gnosis (single minded consciousness, comparable to the 'intellectual decompression' of Uncle Anton LaVey arguably) = RESULT.

So if a Christian believes, is sincere and crazy enough to blank out in prayer - their prayer fits all the criteria of a functional magic spell from the point of view of Chaos Magic.

This stuff about dismissing the possibility of magically potentiality because it's a fucking imaginary God! Well, my appreciation of the spell requires no God, just the belief in one. And really, isn't that what CHRISTIANS do? -Suggest anyone elses prayer or magic CAN"T WORK because it's not working with TRUE GOD(tm)?

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#47410 - 01/26/11 07:49 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
To a christian, pray is putting their hopes/desires in a mental letter to god. That way HE can do it, and take all responsibility away from the christian prayer. The christians don't believe any action on their part is necessary because god will help them and do it.

In regards to the more common uses of magic in Satanism, intellectual decompression, suspension of disbelief, and the gnosis, they are different from how you seem to view them. They are a focusing tool that one uses in order to move forward and get the job done themselves.

In regards to Chaos magic, one can do anything. You take a belief system, combine it with two or three others mix it up and create your own personal rite from it. You do not need to use all the "proper" parts of any religion or belief system. You take what you need and you make it work. Desire and personal gnosis are really the only two ingredients that you need. On that note, my gnosis may not be your gnosis and that is okay especially since most Chaos magicians really don't give a flying fuck what anyone else believes or does. They only care about results.

What you seem to be trying to do with making money off of Chaos magic is a problem that a group I have belonged to for around 10 years had with a break off group in Germany. It didn't end well. Chaos magic doesn't like to be pimped out.

Morgan
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#47415 - 01/26/11 10:40 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Morgan]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Morgan, Thanks for the feedback!

You are right the Christian is believing and conceptualizing an external deity hacking reality on their behalf. But as a chaos magician I have to wonder if the power they are tapping into is not their own, as servitors and egrigores are entities manufactured by human thought and any 'God' could have such origin.

Yeah, the chaos magic community has a great deal of anti capitalist anarchists in their ranks, so working within a chaos magic community to turn chaos magic into an object of capitalist exploitation, it is complete heresy to many. That's actually my pleasure. But I won't talk about this further in this thread because it is way off topic.

It would be interesting to distinguish if my concepts of techniques used in Satanic magic are truly different from how you understand them. I was steeped in LaVey's writing long before I ever heard of Chaos Magic, it's just that Chaos magic suits me better.

How my magic paradigm has evolved into something else is that I now consider magic including a 'spell' and the mundane work to produce a result as well. So if you want that money, you better start that business - kind of thing. It doesn't get more DIY than that.

PS:And the joke of my pimping out chaos magic, fyi - is that there's no information that will be in my book that isn't available for free on my website. I simply understand that even if the person knows my site really well, if they spend money on a book that is just superficially different, they will get more benefit from the book than they do from my site. It's a magic of commerce and information - that which you pay for, you get more benefit from.


Edited by myk5 (01/26/11 10:48 PM)

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#47464 - 01/27/11 09:08 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Oxus Offline
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Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 509
Prayer is just something else the Abrahamics have failed to comprehend properly. It has become rote recitations or simple wish-making.

Prayer originally was a process of concentrated visualization, combined with emotional and mental energy, properly grounded to the physical through proper vocalization.

The spoken Word became in essence praying, this was first understood by the ancient Egyptians in the way of Affirmations and made manifest in (Heka) vibrational magic. Efforts were made to align sound with the principles of a cosmic order (natural ordering of the universe) which perhaps could be seen as a LOGOS, the dialog with that part of your Self that has the ability to create any condition you need or desire.

The invocation within a prayer unites our meditative state of consciousness with the power of the Word and our innate force of Will.

When used in its true form, would one consider it a work of Greater Black Magic?

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#47473 - 01/28/11 05:36 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Oxus]
JWG Offline
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Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 68
When I speak about Greater Black Magic, I am speaking about changing the conscious experience or the way one "receives/interprets" the 'data' they receive that makes up their reality. Their perspective in a simple sense.

If praying is done to do this, and it brings about subsequent change in the OU from within the SU's shifted 'perspective', then yes I would consider it Black Magic, personally.

The difference in Christianity and RHP (in my version of the RHP/LHP usage) is their attributing the results to an external agent, and not of their own doing like many LHP practices.
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#47497 - 01/29/11 01:52 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: JWG]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
What makes an altered state of consciousness 'greater'?

I'm serious, this kind of 'reality hacking' I've seen too often as a form of mental masturbation used as an excuse to not have otherwise verifiable results ... or even an excuse to ruin to ruin their consciousness with hard drugs or a strategy to resist accepting a mental illness as such.

When it comes to changing consciousness in a way that provides results, It think of sales paradigms where you intentionally allow yourself to become one with greed such that if a crippled old woman's cane is what stands between you and your money, you'll take the damn cane! (it WORKS, that mindset can make you a ton of money in sales!) I couldn't do it well, but that's because I'm a fucking fluffy goody goody pussy. But I've not given up, I'm still working on it! There is yet hope!

That's an excellent answer - distinguishing LHP and RHP not by what is so, but by how 'what is so' is interpreted.

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