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#47542 - 01/29/11 09:40 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1139
Loc: Amarillo, TX
There’s praying instead of doing something, in addition to doing something, or in order to do something.

Praying instead of doing something is dumb and counterproductive. It makes the prayer feel like they've done something when they actually haven't.

If one has done everything he possibly can and decides to throw in a prayer for good measure, prayer is basically settling one's mind.

If one prays in order to get himself in the mood to do what he needs to do, it essentially is a stripped down form of ritual magic.
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#47544 - 01/29/11 10:03 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17

If one prays in order to get himself in the mood to do what he needs to do, it essentially is a stripped down form of ritual magic.


EXACTLY. "An object in motion tends to remain in motion, and an object at rest tends to remain at rest." I see this kind of prayer (in the Satanic read ritual or psychodrama) the "unless acted upon" phrase to complete the Newtonian formula. When we're STUCK... we can't get it together and get things going, sometimes the psyche just needs a little kick in the ass.

In this case, one might utter a prayer in the form of talking oneself in to action... pulling oneself up by his/her own bootstraps to DO SOMETHING. It can be as simple as that little self admonishment, or as elaborate as a fully choreographed psychodrama in one's ritual chamber. The remedy is the same. Only the dosage differs.
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#47569 - 01/30/11 05:18 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Jake999]
thedeadidea Offline
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Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 209
The HGA ritual is held in many circles of occultism is held in great esteem in the traditional context of abramelin is very spartan with ritual aesthetics (though they are included) most of the operation however centers around prayer... Though of a different sort closer to catholic contemplative prayer than anything else I could mention. (as technique)
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#47575 - 01/30/11 06:19 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: thedeadidea]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Prayer is an awfully big umbrella. But the RHP context is almost a constant, a talking to what one believes is or could be an intelligence from without themselves.

In its varied forms it can be everything from an obligation, psychological crutch, a form of invocation to a form of magic.

XiaoGUI17: I know many 'magicians' that cast spells and do nothing more. It's not a phenomena unique to prayer. The lore of magical prayer is often one of instant results, so perhaps that is a conditioning.

thedeadidea: The HGA stuff to me seems a return to the mystic core of Christianity. I would suggest the contemplative prayer in that context is in fact a form of invocation.

Are there RHP Satanist that would like to chime in with their Satanic prayer experiences?

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#47586 - 01/30/11 10:59 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Jason King Offline
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Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
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 Originally Posted By: myk5
Are there RHP Satanist?


No.

I deleted the surrounding material because it was utterly irrelevant in the face of this little gem. If I were inclined to point out the simple fact that "Satanist", like most nouns in the English language, adds an -s suffix to indicate the plural, I'd be missing the bigger blunder.

JK
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#47589 - 01/30/11 11:48 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Jason King]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Apologies, yes, it is 'Satanists'.
I understand the vast majority of Satanists are LHP, but there always is a minority that insists Satan is not metaphorical but real.

If a Satanist conceives of Satan as real, does not that deliver the practice into the RHP domain? If not, are Christians that rely on their skills and hard work to produce results..are they....


Edited by myk5 (01/30/11 11:48 AM)

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#47590 - 01/30/11 11:53 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
So do you think that relying on our skills and hard work makes us LHP?

I think you have a funny view upon all these things and it isn't really compromised by an understanding of the very subject you try to dive into.

D.

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#47595 - 01/30/11 12:29 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Diavolo]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
No, I don't.

If you mean to accuse me of believing a Christian can be LHP, I will accuse you of believing no Satanist can be RHP, even if they pray to Satan and believe he is real and listens.

LHP is not a function of if you're with God or Satan, if you're LHP you haven't time for any God. And that includes a God called 'Satan'. The power is YOURS, the God is at most a metaphor. That's my understanding.

But sincerely I'm not sure the distinction is entirely useful. Even the Satanic Bible works with the Names of Demons and Satanic powers in it's formulae for ceremonial magic, because it excites the imagination sure - but it excites the imagination because on some level we believe those entities are REAL. LaVey calls it the 'intellectual decompression chamber', he knows what's going on.


Edited by myk5 (01/30/11 12:32 PM)

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#47598 - 01/30/11 12:40 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Come one, you promised to overwhelm us with your logic or intelligence, or something like that in your intro. I expected a hurricane but this far, all you produce are measly farts.

LHP or RHP, even when popularized as such, have little to do with gods, demons, Atheism or theism. It is a method to come to understanding. To put it simplistic, RHP searches an understanding in a safe, slow and often "by proxy" manner, while the LHP takes a shortcut through the physical or raw experience. The LHP contains real dangers the RHP tends to avoid.

As such, and many won't agree with me, magic can be called a RHP method.

D.

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#47606 - 01/30/11 01:16 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Diavolo]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Ah, that's refreshing.

I told the truth in my intro, read it carefully perhaps?

I am at a disadvantage because I've not explored the origins of LHP and RHP that do indeed present them as a way of approaching 'understanding'. So if you care to suggest resources or share your concepts in more depth, I'd be appreciative.

Magic to me is the art of making change (in accordance to will), and so does include the exploitation of my skills, talents and hard work. And really that's where I'm at. Improving my capacity to make change. Even my appreciation of Zen becomes distilled in me as a means to improve my art and magic (non attachment, Austin Spare distinguishes it as a practical magical technique).

How you arrive at your belief magic is inherently right hand path escapes me.

I suppose the question I have is what is your actual desire? If you are after understanding, what do you expect it to deliver to you?

I know many inferior people get involved in mysticism and 'personal evolution' because they have an ego that demands being special, different and 'above' other people.

I am more or less a humanist, and feel we are in a midst of an economic and culture shock (amongst other shocks) and that being the case it's more interesting to be a human and see what I can accomplish as a human, with my stupidity and blindness intact.

Aren't you even a little bit relieved I'm providing no overwhelming hurricane of valuable intellectual revelation? Sure it's nice to get all that benefit if you can follow along - but it's hard to get so much benefit and not have a cult of personality develop.

I'm familiar with those paradigms that demand you submit to the Guru's wisdom. I know they are not for me, I can't do it myself. I prefer to understand great wisdom permeates humanity along with great ignorance, and I learn from everyone.

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#47607 - 01/30/11 01:34 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Of course you are at a disadvantage but instead of desiring all the information on a platter, the satanic way is gathering it yourself. There is a great deal written upon Satanism on this site and all the relevant information can be discovered when searching a bit here, or out there. You'll make it easier on yourself when you know what you talk about before you talk about something. Else you'll constantly be interrupted by people tapping your shoulder and asking what the hell you are babbling about.

I create change in accordance with my will and at no point there is magic involved. I have this theory that the more people are involved in magic, the less power they have in real life. Of course not all are thankful when I share such sentiments but that's life I guess. Magic is a substitute for real experience or real action and as such, it is a RHP method, not too different from doing something like yoga to come to an understanding.

D.

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#47615 - 01/30/11 07:26 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Diavolo]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Diavolo, thanks for the response. I'm not without my own domain of experience I can speak from, and the difficulty of knowing something before you speak is that there is always more to know and the bar of adequate knowledge is subjective. I'm not entirely new to Satanic thought, and there is more for me to learn.

The 'Satanic way' is there such a thing given the diversity of Satanic thought? I get your meaning though. The issue is akin to the idea of a cup being full and requiring emptying before new ideas can take hold. I need a sense of utility. What are your accomplishments that may inspire me? My own accomplishments are meagre, and I very much mean to do better.

Hmm... I imagine how it is you define magic profoundly colors your meaning when you assert to create change in accordance to your will with magic absent. I'm inclined to suggest creating change in accordance to your will IS magic, however you do it, such is the premise of the site I maintain. That's how it's an occult site with lots of practical information on marketing, mob funding, graphic design, e-commerce strategies and so forth.

To suggest magic is a substitute for experience, I have anecdotal experience that echoes that perhaps but just on the exceptional individual basis. Please explain what you mean because clearly it's your idea and not an idea I'll come to without your experience and particular education and biases.

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#47628 - 01/30/11 09:57 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3888
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
From a Satanic perspective, ritual is a tool for tinkering with your own psychological wiring through emotional catharsis to manifest a change in perspective, and hence behaviour.

Magic is altering perception.
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#47704 - 01/31/11 03:57 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: myk5
The 'Satanic way' is there such a thing given the diversity of Satanic thought? I get your meaning though. The issue is akin to the idea of a cup being full and requiring emptying before new ideas can take hold. I need a sense of utility. What are your accomplishments that may inspire me? My own accomplishments are meagre, and I very much mean to do better.


I don't think my accomplishments or goals would suit you much. I do the devil's work and that's about all I prefer to say about it. It doesn't even matter much what exactly I do since we all follow an individual path and strive for individual goals.

To understand my satanic way you might read upon ONA. But take a knife and cut all the esoteric until only the basics are left. It's almost 21th century Vamamarga. No magic, occultism, yoga…etc. Life provides every answer to any relevant question if you dive into it. Explore. Be the devil; be evil. Challenge yourself not only in what comes easy, but also in what comes hard. Be what they fear or despise. Be what you fear or despise.

Become what you are.

Don't settle for life by proxy.

D.

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#47712 - 01/31/11 06:05 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Btw, I just realized we're arguing in 101, so you are allowed to not be that informed on anything relating Satanism.

Excuse me for expecting more than is required here.

D.

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