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#45175 - 12/18/10 04:29 PM Prayer - Form of greater magic?
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
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Loc: Michigan, USA
Recently, I was sitting outside of my place of employment speaking about some difficulties that I was having at work between my boss and I. He seemed to be having a hard time with things at home and brought it to work with him.. often making most of his employees crazy with his anal demands. This is, after working for him for three years, something that I have seen many times from him and is usually a storm that passes. Even if the storm is harsh and brings you to the edge of quitting at times.

As we were discussing what was going on throughout our weeks. There were two young women that approached us that seemed to be full of joy and poked their way into our conversation. They said that god had spoken to them and that they felt a deep seated need to come over and pray for us. At first, I was very reserved with them because I know how some of these people are. Especially around the city of GR. However, I entertained the idea and listened to what they had to say. They asked me if there was anything that I would like them to pray for me about in specific.

I racked my brain for something and realized that my professional life was hell due to the situation with my boss. I, instead, asked them to pray for my boss. They stood in the middle of the side walk and prayed to their god for improvements in my work life between my boss and I. Within a few days, things did certainly improve in many ways.

On the walk back to my friend's car, he laughed at their measly attempt to "pray for a Satanist" that doesn't believe in their god. I attempted to explain to them why I allow things like that to happen.

Magic = willpower. I truly believe that these women believed that their god would correct all conflicts between my boss and I. While I do not agree in the using of external deities, I do see that their will and belief that "god" would take care of what they prayed for as an employment of greater magic. They included me as the target, received information on which to work with and then used both in order to send out their will via visible ritual of prayer.

Open courts.
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#45193 - 12/18/10 05:48 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Morgan Offline
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Prayer, belief that a big guy in the sky is going to solve and fix your problems.

Magic, (through ritual) belief that through the use of a psychodrama that YOU can change your environment to conform with your will.

It seems that you believe that their prayer to a non-existant guy in the sky affected change in your life.

Have you examined your behavior and interactions with your boss following your interactions with the two women.

Sometimes people only see what they want to see.

Morgan
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#45194 - 12/18/10 05:57 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
HeimiricIX Offline
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Prayer is not Magic in the same way wishful thinking and daydreaming is not Magic. No true will toward a solution is involved, just the hope that through asking to x-god things will get better.

I recommend reading the recently made available Black Magic by Dr. Aquino. .

Best.
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#45195 - 12/18/10 06:04 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Morgan]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Prayer, belief that a big guy in the sky is going to solve and fix your problems.

Magic, (through ritual) belief that through the use of a psychodrama that YOU can change your environment to conform with your will.

It seems that you believe that their prayer to a non-existant guy in the sky affected change in your life.

Have you examined your behavior and interactions with your boss following your interactions with the two women.

Sometimes people only see what they want to see.

Morgan


Yes, in their opinion, their prayer was sent out to a non-existent deity to effect a change in my life.

In my opinion, their will power to try and make a change in my life, positive, was a ritual in it's own right. I do not believe that their good will towards me was bounced from a god satellite and effected my life in a positive manner.

I always believe that xtains like this withhold more magic than what they believe. They believe so whole heartedly that what they are sending out WILL work, that most of the time, it does. I am not saying it because god actually exists but because their will power exists. I am also of the belief that they perform more rituals than most Satanists or others that practice what they call magic. For example, in the catholic church, before you enter and before you leave you anoint yourself with holy water. Or another example, prayer.
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#45209 - 12/19/10 03:44 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: HeimiricIX]
Dimitri Offline
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 Originally Posted By: HeimiricIX
Prayer is not Magic in the same way wishful thinking and daydreaming is not Magic. No true will toward a solution is involved, just the hope that through asking to x-god things will get better.

I recommend reading the recently made available Black Magic by Dr. Aquino. .

Best.

And because Aquino says it is as such you automatically confirm without even doing any thinking of your own?

I disagree, prayer can be a form of magic on the sole condition that the prayer is to be seen as a mental decompression, a means to relieve and an attempt to create order within the mind. It, on the other hand, should not be used as an attempt to make changes within ones situation/life since it tends to fail to achieve that purpose.

The ritual chamber serves the very same purpose as prayer. Just a means to "recalibrate" the mind, not to affect changes.


Edited by Dimitri (12/19/10 03:46 AM)
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#45210 - 12/19/10 04:19 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Harvey Offline
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I may offer daily "devotions" to, say, Megan Fox, until my hand is calloused and my mind dulled... All the will I can muster is not going to achieve a damned thing unless I step away from the tissue box and do something about it. The 'Balance Factor' is also at play here.

What you are talking about might otherwise be termed coincidence. \:\)

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#45212 - 12/19/10 06:28 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Harvey]
OrgasmicKarmatic Offline
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Registered: 08/01/10
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Loc: Michigan, USA
 Originally Posted By: Harvey
I may offer daily "devotions" to, say, Megan Fox, until my hand is calloused and my mind dulled... All the will I can muster is not going to achieve a damned thing unless I step away from the tissue box and do something about it. The 'Balance Factor' is also at play here.

What you are talking about might otherwise be termed coincidence. \:\)


That is true as well for many things. Such as karma, curses, grounding or anything else that may or may not be considered psychodrama.

@Dimitri - Are you speaking of a sort of grounding ritual?


Edited by OrgasmicKarmatic (12/19/10 06:29 AM)
Edit Reason: adding response.
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#45214 - 12/19/10 06:36 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
@Dimitri - Are you speaking of a sort of grounding ritual?

Que?
Merely saying that prayer should be seen as a tool not as a means.

Edit: upon rereading that sentence I might rephrase it a bit.
With saying "being seen as a tool" I am pointing towards the fact that it can be used as a tool for entertainment purposes, not real world changes.



Edited by Dimitri (12/19/10 07:27 AM)
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#45215 - 12/19/10 07:18 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Diavolo Offline
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I think this is an example of glamorizing the average. Your boss is someone that can be a pain in the ass but, as you mentioned, it is only temporary. Now some women pray for him, he improves and suddenly you create a link between the praying and his change, even when he displayed the same change in the past without anyone praying. You create a link where there is none.

A couple of weeks ago a guy I know meets an older guy on the street. He says hi to him and the other grabs his chest and drops dead. If we glamorize the average, we could maybe create a link between him uttering the word "hi", or staring in a particular manner, and the old dude dropping dead. But the simplest explanation is maybe that the old dude had heart problems.

Is praying magick? No, praying is praying. It is desiring to win the lottery without buying a ticket.

D.

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#45235 - 12/19/10 01:27 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Autodidact Offline
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 Originally Posted By: OrgasmicKarmatic

In my opinion, their will power to try and make a change in my life, positive, was a ritual in it's own right. I do not believe that their good will towards me was bounced from a god satellite and effected my life in a positive manner.


I'd agree that it qualifies as ritual in the broadest sense of the word. I'm a bit skeptical that they devoted any significant willpower to the outcome. I have no doubt that they had some amount of goodwill towards you, but that's not the same thing.

 Originally Posted By: OrgasmicKarmatic

I always believe that xtains like this withhold more magic than what they believe. They believe so whole heartedly that what they are sending out WILL work, that most of the time, it does. I am not saying it because god actually exists but because their will power exists. I am also of the belief that they perform more rituals than most Satanists or others that practice what they call magic. For example, in the catholic church, before you enter and before you leave you anoint yourself with holy water. Or another example, prayer.


I will partially agree with this, in that there are no doubt some who sincerely exert their will towards their object of prayer.

But for the most part, most people in this category (based purely on my observation and no concrete evidence at all) are not exerting willpower - they are abdicating responsibility and their own will, half-heartedly imploring some FSM to do something, or simply mechanically following a habit (eg your anointy example) with no conscious intent.

One could argue that this could be sort-of effective as "minor GBM", and I might go along with a few cases; but in general I'm thinking the explicit abdication and the implicit bias against direct action render most of it just plain

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
... desiring to win the lottery without buying a ticket.


with a little self-assuaging of guilt thrown in, since you "did something."

As with all magic, one needs to carefully account for coincidence. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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#45238 - 12/19/10 01:33 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Autodidact]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I think prayer can qualify as ritual if it is YOU that are doing the praying. If you convince yourself that something might come of this prayer, you have already affected the same sort of internal change that is the goal of ritual, which can in turn alter your behaviour on a subconscious level to facilitate your desires.

However, if someone is praying for you, unless you believe that prayer is going to work it is just words.
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#45260 - 12/19/10 04:31 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Still, I do think getting on your knees and praying to some god or force for help isn't really a prime example of Satanism in action. I would call it ritual humiliation.

D.

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#45262 - 12/19/10 04:37 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Agreed, there is nothing 'Satanic' about psychologically giving yourself over to 'something else', least of all from a position of subservience, just saying insofar as ritual itself is concerned(Satanism aside);ie effecting change in the self through catharsis, prayer is certainly a subset.
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#45264 - 12/19/10 04:55 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
JWG Offline
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I'd personally classify prayer as "white magic." You're using Will and Desire, but you're filtering it through a seeming "external" source that is outside of yourself, in this case, "God."

Certainly not Satanism and certainly not the Black Magic approach.
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#45266 - 12/19/10 05:43 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: JWG]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I think it's all functionally the same 'stuff'. Whether you choose to call it black, white, blue or yellow, you are still influencing your own subconscious through crystallization of will and belief.

The rest is merely aesthetics.
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#45274 - 12/19/10 08:50 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Autodidact Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
I think it's all functionally the same 'stuff'. Whether you choose to call it black, white, blue or yellow, you are still influencing your own subconscious through crystallization of will and belief.

The rest is merely aesthetics.


Hm, interesting ... let's explore a bit.

Would you agree, then, that "prayer works"?

Does it come down to how fervently one wishes for an outcome, regardless of "belief system" - in other words, are you equating "hope" and "desire"?
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#45275 - 12/19/10 09:28 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Autodidact]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Autodidact


Would you agree, then, that "prayer works"?

Sure, but only insofar as one can influence ones own subconscious through believing it will work.

 Quote:

are you equating "hope" and "desire"?

Not at all.

However I would think if one hoped enough for something to take the time to pray for it, there would be a desire for a certain outcome at play.
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#45279 - 12/19/10 11:42 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Morgan Offline
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You can pray, hope, desire, jerk-off, or do a rite.

BUT unless you do something to affect the said such desire, nothing is going to change.

Prayer is usually asking "god" to do it for you. Then you sit back and wait.

When a Satanist does a rite (in general), they do it knowing that it still all comes down to themselves doing something after the rite to affect the change they want.

Morgan
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#45282 - 12/20/10 01:27 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Morgan]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Well of course. Just saying if you really believe something will happen, you will generally act in such a manner to make it happen.
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#45319 - 12/20/10 04:29 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dimitri]
HeimiricIX Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

And because Aquino says it is as such you automatically confirm without even doing any thinking of your own?


Not at all mate, no need to assume anything, if you have questions, ask.

Let me explain why pray is not Magic, just for you.

Magic is to create a change based on your Will.

If you suddenly quit smooking just because you wanted to do so. That is Magic.

If you finally got a job after years of not even looking for because you finally decided you needed and wanted one. That is Magic.

If you sign up to a gym and go every day is needed to get your sorry ass in shape and to improve your health. That is Magic.

Prayer is not Magic.

Prayer is like paying the gym and not going or just going once every two weeks and still wait for changes.

Is like saying you want to quit smooking and then telling yourself one more is good to calm up your nerves at a difficult situation.

Prayer is just asking for something and Hope for it to happen, without even taking the time to try to influence that something for it to happen.

Best.
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#46067 - 01/07/11 01:20 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Eric Y Offline
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In my personal experience I believe in 'prayer' for personal inner change to be possible. For example, I am a recovering alcoholic and praying for the strength to make it through the day without a drink was paramount to my initial sobriety. Not because some sky fairy gave me more power, but because I did a few things during that time that affected me and my thoughts, both conscious and subconscious. I spoke the words of what I wanted, I took some type of action (dogma), and I heard the words of my goal. I think these helped me to keep focus on my goal, which was and is to not drink. I was never 'praying' to a god or deity, just some simple self indulged therapy, so to speak.
Now, when it comes to praying for another person, or for anything ouside of our own self conscious, or asking some deity to do some physical deed I find prayer to be as mythical as Jack and the Beanstalk.
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#46178 - 01/07/11 08:40 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Eric Y]
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If I remember correctly, Bill Maher said that prayer helped him through his tough times before he went the way of the thinking man.
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#46197 - 01/08/11 03:35 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Eric Y]
Clicks Offline
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As far as I see it, prayer would be an exercise in productive psychodrama if it weren't for the fact that the practitioners are expecting for their Dad to help them out with their requests afterward in most cases. When they ask for the strength, drive, diligence to do something, they can fool themselves into thinking that they are actually receiving it from their god, and go on about their lives as if they actually posses their new trait, and it could work out all the better for them. They act like how they asked to be, therefore, it worked, albeit in a different manner than they think. I would call that LBM. If they told a person that they were going to pray for them to be able to accomplish something, and then that person who was prayed for starting acting like they were able to after the fact under the delusion that their god gave them the ability, I would call that GBM.
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#46243 - 01/08/11 04:14 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Clicks]
Mindmaster Offline
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Hmm.. yep.. now the "pray"-er comes out of the woodwork..

Please understand that I really don't think requests like:

Lord Satan, I need a million dollars!

Really count as a prayer... and this is what most people do..

Prayer for the Spiritual Satanists for many fun purposes:

1) Simply gratitude.

We don't think Satan or the demons are giving us everything, but we're happy if they've helped. We're also happy about our own assistance as well. (self-worship rites are done as well.) We view ourselves as one God among many, so therefore OURSELVES are venerated nearly as fully. \:\)

2) Devotion/Attunement.

I find myself doing these just to get the Christianized negativity out of my mind. It's sort of like a mediation with more purpose. Generally, it's just to get yourself balanced back on the left hand path when a lot of bullshit has been coming your way.

3) Invocation = Asking (to us)

Theistic types do not do "evocative magic" as it is basically jabbing a spirit with a poker until it does what you say. Nearly all of our rituals involve appeals or prayers because we'd rather build friendships than become slave-masters. Both methods work, and infact I have done both the traditional ceremonial magic methods as well. I don't mind "Asking" so to speak, as I will never ask for anything that I will not put my full effort to anyway. This method works more naturally for me... different strokes I guess. I use the dictionary definition of Invocation not the ceremonial magician definition. I would call their type of invocation "channeling". \:\)

On validity of prayer as magic:

Prayer = Magic because both are forces of the will at least if you believe in magic or MAGICK or whatever. The difference is only in the ability of the usual well-wishers ability to focus. Formality of rites and rituals is merely symbolic the machinery has always been intent+focus = result. Am I silly enough to think that the actual mechanics of my rituals are important? I know full well they're not; they are completely aesthetic but, they do make me feel all warm and cozy with the dark-side and it does assist me in making the connections I need. It does serve NO other purpose though.

The fabric of the universe is so interwoven that you really cannot tell where your influence and that outside influences would end. Much of the time properly done magic just seems like you're having a hell of a good run of luck. How do I know that? Not by arguing with you about in on the silly forums.. but rather collecting my own information. I don't think for a minute that if I am not sending applications out when I am doing magic to obtain a new job that I will get one. You after all have to commit fully to your cause or that would make your intent pretty suspect wouldn't it? Even if the only magic you managed to work was on your own conscious and subconscious mind.


Here's a better question: Does it matter if you get something from Satan, a demon, or yourself? What if it were all those efforts combined? As long as you still get it everything is good right?


Edited by Mindmaster (01/08/11 04:22 PM)

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#47368 - 01/25/11 04:23 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
myk5 Offline
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The chaos magic universal formula for magic: belief + desire + gnosis (single minded consciousness, comparable to the 'intellectual decompression' of Uncle Anton LaVey arguably) = RESULT.

So if a Christian believes, is sincere and crazy enough to blank out in prayer - their prayer fits all the criteria of a functional magic spell from the point of view of Chaos Magic.

This stuff about dismissing the possibility of magically potentiality because it's a fucking imaginary God! Well, my appreciation of the spell requires no God, just the belief in one. And really, isn't that what CHRISTIANS do? -Suggest anyone elses prayer or magic CAN"T WORK because it's not working with TRUE GOD(tm)?

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#47410 - 01/26/11 07:49 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Morgan Offline
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To a christian, pray is putting their hopes/desires in a mental letter to god. That way HE can do it, and take all responsibility away from the christian prayer. The christians don't believe any action on their part is necessary because god will help them and do it.

In regards to the more common uses of magic in Satanism, intellectual decompression, suspension of disbelief, and the gnosis, they are different from how you seem to view them. They are a focusing tool that one uses in order to move forward and get the job done themselves.

In regards to Chaos magic, one can do anything. You take a belief system, combine it with two or three others mix it up and create your own personal rite from it. You do not need to use all the "proper" parts of any religion or belief system. You take what you need and you make it work. Desire and personal gnosis are really the only two ingredients that you need. On that note, my gnosis may not be your gnosis and that is okay especially since most Chaos magicians really don't give a flying fuck what anyone else believes or does. They only care about results.

What you seem to be trying to do with making money off of Chaos magic is a problem that a group I have belonged to for around 10 years had with a break off group in Germany. It didn't end well. Chaos magic doesn't like to be pimped out.

Morgan
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#47415 - 01/26/11 10:40 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Morgan]
myk5 Offline
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Morgan, Thanks for the feedback!

You are right the Christian is believing and conceptualizing an external deity hacking reality on their behalf. But as a chaos magician I have to wonder if the power they are tapping into is not their own, as servitors and egrigores are entities manufactured by human thought and any 'God' could have such origin.

Yeah, the chaos magic community has a great deal of anti capitalist anarchists in their ranks, so working within a chaos magic community to turn chaos magic into an object of capitalist exploitation, it is complete heresy to many. That's actually my pleasure. But I won't talk about this further in this thread because it is way off topic.

It would be interesting to distinguish if my concepts of techniques used in Satanic magic are truly different from how you understand them. I was steeped in LaVey's writing long before I ever heard of Chaos Magic, it's just that Chaos magic suits me better.

How my magic paradigm has evolved into something else is that I now consider magic including a 'spell' and the mundane work to produce a result as well. So if you want that money, you better start that business - kind of thing. It doesn't get more DIY than that.

PS:And the joke of my pimping out chaos magic, fyi - is that there's no information that will be in my book that isn't available for free on my website. I simply understand that even if the person knows my site really well, if they spend money on a book that is just superficially different, they will get more benefit from the book than they do from my site. It's a magic of commerce and information - that which you pay for, you get more benefit from.


Edited by myk5 (01/26/11 10:48 PM)

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#47464 - 01/27/11 09:08 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
Oxus Offline
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Prayer is just something else the Abrahamics have failed to comprehend properly. It has become rote recitations or simple wish-making.

Prayer originally was a process of concentrated visualization, combined with emotional and mental energy, properly grounded to the physical through proper vocalization.

The spoken Word became in essence praying, this was first understood by the ancient Egyptians in the way of Affirmations and made manifest in (Heka) vibrational magic. Efforts were made to align sound with the principles of a cosmic order (natural ordering of the universe) which perhaps could be seen as a LOGOS, the dialog with that part of your Self that has the ability to create any condition you need or desire.

The invocation within a prayer unites our meditative state of consciousness with the power of the Word and our innate force of Will.

When used in its true form, would one consider it a work of Greater Black Magic?

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#47473 - 01/28/11 05:36 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Oxus]
JWG Offline
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When I speak about Greater Black Magic, I am speaking about changing the conscious experience or the way one "receives/interprets" the 'data' they receive that makes up their reality. Their perspective in a simple sense.

If praying is done to do this, and it brings about subsequent change in the OU from within the SU's shifted 'perspective', then yes I would consider it Black Magic, personally.

The difference in Christianity and RHP (in my version of the RHP/LHP usage) is their attributing the results to an external agent, and not of their own doing like many LHP practices.
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#47497 - 01/29/11 01:52 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: JWG]
myk5 Offline
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What makes an altered state of consciousness 'greater'?

I'm serious, this kind of 'reality hacking' I've seen too often as a form of mental masturbation used as an excuse to not have otherwise verifiable results ... or even an excuse to ruin to ruin their consciousness with hard drugs or a strategy to resist accepting a mental illness as such.

When it comes to changing consciousness in a way that provides results, It think of sales paradigms where you intentionally allow yourself to become one with greed such that if a crippled old woman's cane is what stands between you and your money, you'll take the damn cane! (it WORKS, that mindset can make you a ton of money in sales!) I couldn't do it well, but that's because I'm a fucking fluffy goody goody pussy. But I've not given up, I'm still working on it! There is yet hope!

That's an excellent answer - distinguishing LHP and RHP not by what is so, but by how 'what is so' is interpreted.

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#47542 - 01/29/11 09:40 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1137
Loc: Amarillo, TX
There’s praying instead of doing something, in addition to doing something, or in order to do something.

Praying instead of doing something is dumb and counterproductive. It makes the prayer feel like they've done something when they actually haven't.

If one has done everything he possibly can and decides to throw in a prayer for good measure, prayer is basically settling one's mind.

If one prays in order to get himself in the mood to do what he needs to do, it essentially is a stripped down form of ritual magic.
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#47544 - 01/29/11 10:03 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17

If one prays in order to get himself in the mood to do what he needs to do, it essentially is a stripped down form of ritual magic.


EXACTLY. "An object in motion tends to remain in motion, and an object at rest tends to remain at rest." I see this kind of prayer (in the Satanic read ritual or psychodrama) the "unless acted upon" phrase to complete the Newtonian formula. When we're STUCK... we can't get it together and get things going, sometimes the psyche just needs a little kick in the ass.

In this case, one might utter a prayer in the form of talking oneself in to action... pulling oneself up by his/her own bootstraps to DO SOMETHING. It can be as simple as that little self admonishment, or as elaborate as a fully choreographed psychodrama in one's ritual chamber. The remedy is the same. Only the dosage differs.
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#47569 - 01/30/11 05:18 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Jake999]
thedeadidea Offline
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Posts: 209
The HGA ritual is held in many circles of occultism is held in great esteem in the traditional context of abramelin is very spartan with ritual aesthetics (though they are included) most of the operation however centers around prayer... Though of a different sort closer to catholic contemplative prayer than anything else I could mention. (as technique)
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#47575 - 01/30/11 06:19 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: thedeadidea]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Prayer is an awfully big umbrella. But the RHP context is almost a constant, a talking to what one believes is or could be an intelligence from without themselves.

In its varied forms it can be everything from an obligation, psychological crutch, a form of invocation to a form of magic.

XiaoGUI17: I know many 'magicians' that cast spells and do nothing more. It's not a phenomena unique to prayer. The lore of magical prayer is often one of instant results, so perhaps that is a conditioning.

thedeadidea: The HGA stuff to me seems a return to the mystic core of Christianity. I would suggest the contemplative prayer in that context is in fact a form of invocation.

Are there RHP Satanist that would like to chime in with their Satanic prayer experiences?

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#47586 - 01/30/11 10:59 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Jason King Offline
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Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: myk5
Are there RHP Satanist?


No.

I deleted the surrounding material because it was utterly irrelevant in the face of this little gem. If I were inclined to point out the simple fact that "Satanist", like most nouns in the English language, adds an -s suffix to indicate the plural, I'd be missing the bigger blunder.

JK
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#47589 - 01/30/11 11:48 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Jason King]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Apologies, yes, it is 'Satanists'.
I understand the vast majority of Satanists are LHP, but there always is a minority that insists Satan is not metaphorical but real.

If a Satanist conceives of Satan as real, does not that deliver the practice into the RHP domain? If not, are Christians that rely on their skills and hard work to produce results..are they....


Edited by myk5 (01/30/11 11:48 AM)

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#47590 - 01/30/11 11:53 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
So do you think that relying on our skills and hard work makes us LHP?

I think you have a funny view upon all these things and it isn't really compromised by an understanding of the very subject you try to dive into.

D.

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#47595 - 01/30/11 12:29 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Diavolo]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
No, I don't.

If you mean to accuse me of believing a Christian can be LHP, I will accuse you of believing no Satanist can be RHP, even if they pray to Satan and believe he is real and listens.

LHP is not a function of if you're with God or Satan, if you're LHP you haven't time for any God. And that includes a God called 'Satan'. The power is YOURS, the God is at most a metaphor. That's my understanding.

But sincerely I'm not sure the distinction is entirely useful. Even the Satanic Bible works with the Names of Demons and Satanic powers in it's formulae for ceremonial magic, because it excites the imagination sure - but it excites the imagination because on some level we believe those entities are REAL. LaVey calls it the 'intellectual decompression chamber', he knows what's going on.


Edited by myk5 (01/30/11 12:32 PM)

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#47598 - 01/30/11 12:40 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Diavolo Offline
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Come one, you promised to overwhelm us with your logic or intelligence, or something like that in your intro. I expected a hurricane but this far, all you produce are measly farts.

LHP or RHP, even when popularized as such, have little to do with gods, demons, Atheism or theism. It is a method to come to understanding. To put it simplistic, RHP searches an understanding in a safe, slow and often "by proxy" manner, while the LHP takes a shortcut through the physical or raw experience. The LHP contains real dangers the RHP tends to avoid.

As such, and many won't agree with me, magic can be called a RHP method.

D.

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#47606 - 01/30/11 01:16 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Diavolo]
myk5 Offline
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Posts: 137
Ah, that's refreshing.

I told the truth in my intro, read it carefully perhaps?

I am at a disadvantage because I've not explored the origins of LHP and RHP that do indeed present them as a way of approaching 'understanding'. So if you care to suggest resources or share your concepts in more depth, I'd be appreciative.

Magic to me is the art of making change (in accordance to will), and so does include the exploitation of my skills, talents and hard work. And really that's where I'm at. Improving my capacity to make change. Even my appreciation of Zen becomes distilled in me as a means to improve my art and magic (non attachment, Austin Spare distinguishes it as a practical magical technique).

How you arrive at your belief magic is inherently right hand path escapes me.

I suppose the question I have is what is your actual desire? If you are after understanding, what do you expect it to deliver to you?

I know many inferior people get involved in mysticism and 'personal evolution' because they have an ego that demands being special, different and 'above' other people.

I am more or less a humanist, and feel we are in a midst of an economic and culture shock (amongst other shocks) and that being the case it's more interesting to be a human and see what I can accomplish as a human, with my stupidity and blindness intact.

Aren't you even a little bit relieved I'm providing no overwhelming hurricane of valuable intellectual revelation? Sure it's nice to get all that benefit if you can follow along - but it's hard to get so much benefit and not have a cult of personality develop.

I'm familiar with those paradigms that demand you submit to the Guru's wisdom. I know they are not for me, I can't do it myself. I prefer to understand great wisdom permeates humanity along with great ignorance, and I learn from everyone.

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#47607 - 01/30/11 01:34 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Diavolo Offline
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Of course you are at a disadvantage but instead of desiring all the information on a platter, the satanic way is gathering it yourself. There is a great deal written upon Satanism on this site and all the relevant information can be discovered when searching a bit here, or out there. You'll make it easier on yourself when you know what you talk about before you talk about something. Else you'll constantly be interrupted by people tapping your shoulder and asking what the hell you are babbling about.

I create change in accordance with my will and at no point there is magic involved. I have this theory that the more people are involved in magic, the less power they have in real life. Of course not all are thankful when I share such sentiments but that's life I guess. Magic is a substitute for real experience or real action and as such, it is a RHP method, not too different from doing something like yoga to come to an understanding.

D.

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#47615 - 01/30/11 07:26 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Diavolo]
myk5 Offline
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Posts: 137
Diavolo, thanks for the response. I'm not without my own domain of experience I can speak from, and the difficulty of knowing something before you speak is that there is always more to know and the bar of adequate knowledge is subjective. I'm not entirely new to Satanic thought, and there is more for me to learn.

The 'Satanic way' is there such a thing given the diversity of Satanic thought? I get your meaning though. The issue is akin to the idea of a cup being full and requiring emptying before new ideas can take hold. I need a sense of utility. What are your accomplishments that may inspire me? My own accomplishments are meagre, and I very much mean to do better.

Hmm... I imagine how it is you define magic profoundly colors your meaning when you assert to create change in accordance to your will with magic absent. I'm inclined to suggest creating change in accordance to your will IS magic, however you do it, such is the premise of the site I maintain. That's how it's an occult site with lots of practical information on marketing, mob funding, graphic design, e-commerce strategies and so forth.

To suggest magic is a substitute for experience, I have anecdotal experience that echoes that perhaps but just on the exceptional individual basis. Please explain what you mean because clearly it's your idea and not an idea I'll come to without your experience and particular education and biases.

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#47628 - 01/30/11 09:57 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
From a Satanic perspective, ritual is a tool for tinkering with your own psychological wiring through emotional catharsis to manifest a change in perspective, and hence behaviour.

Magic is altering perception.
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#47704 - 01/31/11 03:57 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Diavolo Offline
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stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: myk5
The 'Satanic way' is there such a thing given the diversity of Satanic thought? I get your meaning though. The issue is akin to the idea of a cup being full and requiring emptying before new ideas can take hold. I need a sense of utility. What are your accomplishments that may inspire me? My own accomplishments are meagre, and I very much mean to do better.


I don't think my accomplishments or goals would suit you much. I do the devil's work and that's about all I prefer to say about it. It doesn't even matter much what exactly I do since we all follow an individual path and strive for individual goals.

To understand my satanic way you might read upon ONA. But take a knife and cut all the esoteric until only the basics are left. It's almost 21th century Vamamarga. No magic, occultism, yoga…etc. Life provides every answer to any relevant question if you dive into it. Explore. Be the devil; be evil. Challenge yourself not only in what comes easy, but also in what comes hard. Be what they fear or despise. Be what you fear or despise.

Become what you are.

Don't settle for life by proxy.

D.

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#47712 - 01/31/11 06:05 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Btw, I just realized we're arguing in 101, so you are allowed to not be that informed on anything relating Satanism.

Excuse me for expecting more than is required here.

D.

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#47729 - 01/31/11 10:15 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Diavolo]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
@Diavolo: It's cool to be dumped on for not knowing enough, I'm used to fending for myself and it's nice to be held to a higher standard.

Please, what is ONA? I'm not sure what it stands for.

The closest I ever came to true evil was in sales. And sure enough the experience is one I feel compelled to conquer rather than be conquered by. I saw folks with no morals make ten k in a day, I lose until I do better with ethics intact.

Well, a goal that would suit to inspire me is a goal that is grounded in reality that could seem remote and improbable when you committed to achieving it. I understand your goals wouldn't be my own.

I am biased against goals that aren't measurable - anyone can take magic mushrooms and decide they have evolved to a higher state than the rest of us.


Edited by myk5 (01/31/11 10:21 PM)

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#47730 - 01/31/11 10:20 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
The ONA is the Order of Nine Angles, given to us by one David Myatt under the nom de plume 'Anton Long'

You should probably get what google can give you, and come back with a more specific query.
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#47731 - 01/31/11 10:37 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
Ah, thanks. I have heard of it, my first impression was fairly negative because I tend to have a knee jerk reaction to something that seems purposefully esoteric.

I'll give it a more careful review this time.


Edited by myk5 (01/31/11 10:38 PM)

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#47743 - 02/01/11 01:27 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
JWG Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 68
It's all about manipulating your reality, but when done from within, in the sense that we are changing our 'reception' of the 'raw data', it is a greater encompassing change. At the very fundamental core, our own interpretation and experience of it. That's just how I communicate the experience and process/act, however.


As for people abusing substances, I agree with you, it's not something I'm for and do not partake in that. What you are talking about, if I understand you correctly? Using a cane to make the person feel a bit sympathetic and thus increasing sales? For me, I classify that under Lower Black Magic, as it's manipulation of others to achieve what you desire.

Please let me know if I didn't touch on any of what you had concern or confusion about. Perhaps I misunderstood what your critique was altogether. These are all just my views according to my personal experience, however. I don't expect you to agree with them because I say so.
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#47748 - 02/01/11 03:46 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: JWG]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
I don't think changing your head can be equated with changing your reality - because that would make the mentally ill powerful and great instead of disabled. Yeah, reality is subjective, but solipsism is false. I only respect results that are concrete, verifiable and real to more people than yourself.

No, what the coaching relating to taking the cane from the old crippled woman was about was that if you allow greed to consume you, the consequences to the person you get your money from shouldn't cross your mind ...and if you can have that state of mind, you will improve your capacity to sell. He was right, but I didn't have it in me because I'm weak.

Doing the door to door sales in the rain and looking soaked and miserable at that door encouraged prospects to let you in so you could make your sales pitch. That's the low magic you had in mind.

Been reading the introduction to Satanism from the ONA folks, it is as peculiar as I remember, Satan is real to these guys too, in a way. The whole trust only other Satanists and fuck everyone else (fucking mundanes!)theme reminds me of Scientology and every other other cults where cultists are the chosen elite and everyone else is inferior. Turns me off it does. But I'll stick with it, see if there's value anywhere.


Edited by myk5 (02/01/11 04:00 AM)

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#47759 - 02/01/11 10:20 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Antonio Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 38
A ridiculous thing I found about the ONA is their labeling of Aleister Crowley as an "egotist". Even worse is their bashing of Thelema's roots on the eastern Kabbalah because it's not based on the western "Septenary".

I don't think there is a more egotistical and narrow minded group than this one. That said, it's a very interesting sect to understand and research.

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#47762 - 02/01/11 10:32 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Antonio]
myk5 Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
@ Antonio:
Yeah, someone claiming the label "The Great Best" and footnoting his writing with other links to his writing - there's only humility to that? Lol.



Edited by myk5 (02/01/11 11:19 AM)

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#47768 - 02/01/11 10:49 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Antonio Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 38
 Originally Posted By: myk5
@ Antonio:
Yeah, someone claiming the label "The Great Best" and footnoting his writing with other links to his writing - there's only humility to that? Lol.

No, it's clearly egotistic. My point is that it's stupid and hypocritical to blame someone for this possible shortcoming when one is guilty of the same.

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#47777 - 02/01/11 11:37 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Antonio]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
@Antonio : Ah, Okay.

ONA presents a very dense paradigm, uses specific and theatrical language and seems to speak a great deal of evolution without specifying what the means. The FAQ was alarming... it reminded me of a conversation I had recently with a self described Krishna Guru.

See, this Self described Krishna Guru, Krishna is very real to him and if you're not with Krishna, you're his enemy. And Krishna blesses him, so his plan - he will attract followers and take control of a part of town where cops dare not tread! He plans to sabotage the cars of the police, and to kill police that harass him or his friends. Krishna be praised!

So reading the ONA FAQ... not that dissimilar.

I'm having a hard time divining useful information, but there is a ton of it. I wonder if my efforts wouldn't be better rewarded by studying php or conversational hypnosis....

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#47820 - 02/01/11 04:43 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
David Myatt also promotes Islam and ran a white power group.

Satanism, Islam, and skinhead movements. Figure out the common thread and you have figured out the core of ONA.
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#47860 - 02/02/11 03:10 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
myk5 Offline
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Posts: 137
Well, the aversion to Christianity and it's Jewish roots and the thought of Jews as adversaries to the Satan, dovetails with the White Power nonsense. The Islam is very peculiar as it also has a similar Abrahamic foundation as Christianity, but without the actual Jewish writings. But what it does bring to mind is that Islam does validate the existence of Djinn, and as Djinn are in the Koran, to me it seems to favour how Satan is believed to exist in ONA.


But that's just off the top of my head from having skimmed a bit of ONA writings.

Is Anton Long and David Myatt the same person? I know they are alleged to be the same, but I know not what the evidence is unless it is tell tale stylistic similarities to the writing of each.


Edited by myk5 (02/02/11 03:24 AM)

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#47872 - 02/02/11 08:13 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Jason King Offline
Banned/Martyrdom Denied
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Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 731
Loc: 65?1%833Q!92A24 (It's a code)
 Originally Posted By: myk5
Is Anton Long and David Myatt the same person? I know they are alleged to be the same, but I know not what the evidence is unless it is tell tale stylistic similarities to the writing of each.


PM me your e-mail and I'll send you a PDF proving it.

JK
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#47904 - 02/02/11 05:20 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
You are looking at the form, not the substance ;\)

No one can be TOLD what the ONA is, you must see it for yourself...

Or some such nonsense.
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#47921 - 02/03/11 12:46 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
myk5 Offline
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Posts: 137
Fair enough, Dan_Dread. But while an experience may lay outside of language to describe it, the means to recreate that experience are most often accessible to language. Is there a specific writing you can recommend that can provide me with such instruction?

Generally I believe form should follow function, that it is not irrelevant.

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#47925 - 02/03/11 01:08 AM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: myk5
Is there a specific writing you can recommend that can provide me with such instruction?


Writing to provide "instructions?" To see the Essence beneath the Form? To teach you to "read between the lines?"

I would just focus on DM's writings. First read his Reichsfolk writings and pay attention to the core concepts and also to the intended audience.

Then read his Numinous Way writings and pay attention to the core concepts and also the intended audience.

Then read his old and his current ONA writings and pay attention to the core concepts and to the intended audience.

Then read his Jihadi writings and pay attention to the core concepts and to the intended audience.

After you have done that you may learn to notice that is all the same memes dressed up in different packages for specific audiences all as an attempt to eventually TRY and manifest the same "thing."

I would also suggest doing a little research on a technique in Buddhism called "Upaya," as this will help you understand the difference between Essence and Form.

Dharma ((Phenomena)) is the Essence - unwritten and wordlessly experienced/observed. The words used to describe the Dharma are approximations of the Essence: the Natural occurring phenomena. Different words and means of expression are threaded together to build a Yana ((Vehicle)). The Yana ((Form)) serve only as a means to Convey the approximation of the Essence ((dharma)) to a specific audience. Application or praxis comes after the Yana has been understood by the Upasaka.

Or in a Western way: Phenomena is the Natural occurring Essence. This Essence is observed by the scientist. To try and come to an understanding a hypothesis is formulated. This hypothesis is processed thru the Scientific Method. Theories are "produced." These theories are approximations of the wordless, Natural phenomena. Gradually related theories are put together into scientific Disciplines or Fields ((Form)) such as Biology, Zoology, Physics, Chemistry, etc. The Form - Field - causes resonance in those students who have an interest in a specific Field. By studying that Field/Form they learn to better apprehend and understand the Essence: Natural Phenomena.
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#47958 - 02/03/11 12:13 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Caladrius]
myk5 Offline
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Posts: 137
Caladrius, thanks.

I have noted peculiar similarity of core concepts between ONA and Numinous Way, I'm afraid jihadi writings and the Reichsfolk writing are intrinsically directed to an audience I have such an aversion to it's very difficult for me to even approach, much less give a fair hearing to.

As I explained earlier these are new ideas to me and in my pragmatism I need a sense of utility to justify the expenditure of time, attention and especially effort - and that's missing.

Just abstractly I would suggest that if what you are about is manufacturing change on so broad a scale as to be cultural shift, constructing new and interesting paradigms for fringe movements is impotent masturbation. It can be fun, but broad shifts in human culture are not moved from the fringe, especially the popularly damned fringe.

That said, thank you so much for presenting the idea in a Buddhist paradigm, I'm already getting value from that, it will be a pleasure to research "Upaya". Thank you very much.

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#47973 - 02/03/11 02:48 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: myk5
I'm afraid jihadi writings and the Reichsfolk writing are intrinsically directed to an audience I have such an aversion to it's very difficult for me to even approach, much less give a fair hearing to.


The aversion and strong negative sentiments in practical terms is the fuel and drive to change and/or disrupt the Enemy.

Take the Cold War as an example. The USSR and USA were disgusted at each other. Now if we were all KGB agents, and our Boss collected us to brief us on a mission and he said: "Ok KGB Agents, here's the Upaya - we hate Amerika and Amerikan Capitalism and we want to change Amarika society to be more congruent to Mother Russia and our Communist Weltanschauung. Lets do a 10 year Mission inside Amerika, pretend to be Amerikan and begin introducing our ideological memes into receptive Amerikan social groups."

Then all over us said: "We're afraid we have such an aversion to Amerika & Capitalism that it's difficult for us to even approach, much less give a fair hearing to."

The question is thus: What work gets done?

 Quote:

Just abstractly I would suggest that if what you are about is manufacturing change on so broad a scale as to be cultural shift, constructing new and interesting paradigms for fringe movements is impotent masturbation. It can be fun, but broad shifts in human culture are not moved from the fringe, especially the popularly damned fringe.


Suggest? To me? I assume you have practical experience to be suggesting things to me abstractly? Your suggestion above, is this based on a simple "intellectualization" of ideas which formed an opinion in your mind? Or is this based on actual practical experience of using and making forms? Tell me what an opinion is worth.

You state that "human culture is not moved from the fringe" as a matter of "factly." Are you suggesting to me that when Marx & Engels first drafted their ideas onto paper that the both of them and their ideas were NOT of the social fringe of their time?

Are you suggesting to me that when the early German NS party were ripping off fringe ideas of Herr Lanz that such ideas of Herr Lanz were NOT at that time of the social fringe?

HERE Watch this and pay close attention to first where the ORIGINAL idea of Lanz came from; secondly assess if such ideas of Lanz's was socially acceptable of "fringe." Thirdly pay attention to how such ideas were transformed/upaya-ed into a new Form. Fourthly pay attention to whom or what audience that Form was directed to. Lastly pay attention to the causal manifestation - the End Result... as in German Culture and people being moved.

All ideas start "somewhere" as small ideas. Just because the populous does not accept such ideas does not mean such ideas have no value or potency... unless you are suggesting that only ideas approved by popular consensus ((ad populum)) is potent? Since when was the Herd and what such Herd accepts potent? It is within the interest of a Nation-State and its Status-Quo to have their populous use impotent ideas and ideologies. These are rhetorical questions. I'm removing myself from this thread as I have address the original question I came here for.
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#47983 - 02/03/11 04:02 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: Caladrius]
myk5 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 137
To be very honest I have yet to become wealthy or prominent and so I don't have results to suggest my thoughts are of any value greater than that which is self evident.

I will have such results soon, this inability to produce them now is a helpful motivator. Thank you.

My actual thought is that ideas can be disseminated to the public and hungrily consumed in the form of entertainment, and on a mass scale. But that may have something to do with the fact I have skills as an entertainer and I don't feel a need to distinguish myself as better than everyone else.


Edited by myk5 (02/03/11 04:18 PM)

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#48228 - 02/06/11 03:41 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: myk5]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: myk5
But that may have something to do with the fact I have skills as an entertainer and I don't feel a need to distinguish myself as better than everyone else.


Whenever one enters Satanism, one cannot avoid distinguishing oneself as better than everyone. There is no egalitarianism in Satanism; when considering oneself identical in value as the mass, one is a part of the mass. So yes, we distinguish ourselves as better.

As such, ONA, or at least those that know how to make the memeplex serve them instead of serving it, distinguishes itself in Satanism too. Is it a fringe movement? It might be but at the very least, it gets things done by doing.

D.

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#48509 - 02/09/11 03:23 PM Re: Prayer - Form of greater magic? [Re: OrgasmicKarmatic]
PsychosexySin Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 5
I think perhaps their prayer was merely a providing of their own energy,,,,that you directed through YOUR will into the situation because it was your focus at the time,,,the prayer may have been little more than an offering of force or energy from them,(as can be acheived and directed in group rituals),,to do with as you wished.ie you acted as the focus for what they provided. Essentially i think they were doing little more than providing force for you will. So NO,i don't think prayer is a form of Magic,,,,i think it is an unfocused waste of energy,,,,that could be directed towards change more effectively by either acting physically or psychologically to change the situation, or by taking that energy and directing it into the situation properly,ie a magical rite,,instead of directing it at a non existent "higher force" that u expect to solve all your problems.Thats my take on the situation anyway.

Edited by PsychosexySin (02/09/11 03:34 PM)

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